Angela Lin 0:20
Today we have a special guest with us Cherrie from With Chinese Characteristics, another awesome API podcast. Welcome, Cherrie.
Jesse Lin 0:30
Welcome.
Cherrie 0:30
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Angela Lin 0:32
Thanks for joining us. We’re really excited to have Cherrie on one because we love to do these crossover collabs with other cool Asian podcasts. And also because Cherrie’s podcast is super different from ours. Like, let’s just say she and her partner are way more educated than we are and do more homework than we do their podcast is, well, actually Cherrie, why don’t you give a little summary of your podcast, you’re probably better at speaking to what it’s about.
Cherrie 1:04
That’s very kind of you to say that first. We are, well, this is a podcast about Asian American or Chinese and or Chinese history, culture, politics. And me and my partner, Natalie we’re not historians, we’re just history lovers, I like to say, and we have a special interest in you know, anything that has Chinese characteristics, no pun intended. So we try to look for topics that we are interested in. And again, being non historians, we want to, you know, see how like an everyday person who’s not a doesn’t have a PhD in history, or or Chinese American Studies would interpret and dissect and these issues, and that’s where we try to come in and try to tell the story in a more in the way that we ourselves would be able to understand it and connect to as well. So yeah, so. So that’s our podcast.
Angela Lin 1:59
Awesome. Yeah, it’s really cool. Because, I mean, there definitely so many different kinds of podcasts out there, but especially compared to the way Jesse and I talk about things and we like quote, unquote, research. So we’re not as hardcore. So it’s cool to have like the balance between different podcasts providing, you know, different lenses into stuff. But anyways, make sure to check them out. But the reason we have Cherrie on today is we have a fun topic that we wanted to discuss. We’re always trying to find kind of the different perspectives of Asian American life and upbringing and how we see the world differently. And one of the main ways that we can see the world differently is what based on where we were born, and kind of where our formative years were spent. And so we wanted to compare and contrast, the Asian American experience between those of us that were born and raised in the US, but have deep family ties back in the Motherland, versus those who were born and raised in the Motherland, but came over here, as you know, young adults, and now live here, because we’re all Asian Americans. But I would gander to think that the way we grew up, had a big impact on kind of the way that we see things as grown grown ups now. So that’s, that’s what we wanted to cover with Cherrie. But before we go into too deep on stuff, we can’t gip you and leave you out of our standard guest questions. So we did want to ask you, how would you answer but where are you really from?
Cherrie 3:46
Well, good question. Because I’ve been asked that before, and I love to give you the answer where I don’t have to, you know, pretend or have my guard up because sometimes depends on who’s asking. There might be assumptions that are, you know, associated with it. So I am, I was born in China. And I lived in China for 18 years. And I came here for came to America for college. And I have stayed here for a good decade. And I don’t plan to leave anytime soon in the future. So and I really appreciate you saying, you know, we’re all Asian Americans, because that’s exactly how I feel. And I have a lot of, you know, born in America, Asian American friends. And there are experiences of mine that maybe sometimes overlap with theirs, and sometimes it’s very different. So I would love to talk about it with you.
Angela Lin 4:41
Well, thank you for that. And I love to dig in even already based on what you said, because I feel like based on what you just said, there is some maybe you’ve had some experiences where people are not seeing you as Asian American. Is that a fair assumption?
Cherrie 4:56
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think It’s in a way. So I mean, obviously, like, I don’t speak, maybe you think I do, because my partner thinks that I do. But like, I feel like I don’t speak like, quote unquote, American English as someone who has English as their first language. And obviously, Chinese is my first language. So people might have the expectation that I’m like an expat, which I was for, you know, for a long time, until I’ve decided that I do want to stay here, and I’m going to put down some roots. And but sometimes it really depends on the way it’s asked. And, you know, who’s asking, and under what circumstances? And and yes, I don’t know if that that answers the question. But it’s a complicated thing to be asking anyone. I feel like and there’s, you know, sometimes there’s a straightforward answer. And most of the time, there’s just not, because, yeah.
Jesse Lin 5:54
Well to your point of saying, like, you’re, you’ve decided to put down roots here. Do you personally feel like you you identify with the label as Asian American? Because, you know, there’s a lot of different groups that exist here and a lot of different identities that overlap. And I think it’s, we don’t want to assume that you are identifying as an Asian American.
Cherrie 6:18
Yeah, no, thanks for that. I do. So that, okay, so don’t worry about it. But I did. I feel like it’s in many ways, to me, it’s a legal term. Because as someone who I would like to say maybe like, I’m privileged in a way compared to those who were born here, because obviously, you know, people can’t choose where they were born. And but you could choose sometimes where you move to and where you know, where you want to go in your life. So I feel like by making that legal decision, in a way gives me a, it gives the power back to me, if that makes sense. And so I am able to say that and if anyone, or like people who might have another idea of what American means, or Asian American means, which I really haven’t had that in the Asian American community at all because everyone I’ve met and because like, most of my friends from college are actually Asian Americans, rather than for the Asians, I guess, rather than the overseas, expats and I really just felt embracement for you know, most of it. So, yeah.
Jesse Lin 7:40
So great to hear. Yeah.
Angela Lin 8:44
Great, well, I’m sure there might be more to dig into with that once we get into some of the other topics, but maybe we pivot straight in. So jumping right into the deep stuff, I feel like one of the main things we wanted to discuss is, obviously on this podcast, especially we kind of talk a lot about our own, reconciling our own identity issues growing up. And one of the main reasons we have identity issues is that as Asians in America we’re a minority, or one of many minorities here, right. And so there’s this contentious feeling for us where we like, now that we’re adults, we embrace more of our Asian culture and you know, our, our parents, Motherland and all that comes with that. But growing up, we all just want to be white, right, because that’s the majority. That’s the kind of standard and that’s what’s considered normal. So I think one thing we wanted to talk about is what it’s like to be the majority versus the minority. Because I mean, we always look at things here from a Western lens, but if you grew up in China or any Asian Motherland Most likely you are the majority because that is that more other countries are more homogenous than the US. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about like, if you ever thought about race in that respect when you were in China, and then how that transition when you came to the US and had to flip flop between, like majority to minority?
Cherrie 10:27
Yeah, um, honestly, I have not thought about race before I came to America at all, because I feel like well A) I was very young. And in China is sort of like, I lived, I lived the typical life of like a city. Like, I sort of living a bubble, I like to say, and my parents are very one of the typical, you know, Chinese parents where like, school is everything. Don’t worry about anything else getting good, good college. And that’s all you need to worry about until you get to college. And so I feel like I was sheltered in a way. And then I came to America. And I realized that it was, in many ways a privilege, not having to think about race, as this thing that like to not, I guess, not having the, the feeling that I am a minority growing up. And I feel like that was compared to, you know, in the maybe the typical Asian American experience growing up in America, I feel pretty lucky in that sense. I don’t know if that’s okay to say. Because if you grew up as a minority, you don’t have to worry about you don’t represent anyone but yourself. And, you know, because other people of other races or like, you know, maybe white people will see you and say, Oh, that’s so Asian over you. And you feel like you might somehow represent the whole race, which is obviously not true. And I just never had to go through that back in China. I feel like I did have to go through that once I moved here, in a way. Yeah. And I remember watching, because this question, like, I talked about my friends a lot as well. Because I think Ronnie Chieng, I think it was Ronnie Chieng, who had like, you know, a special and he was like, I don’t know how to live like a minority, because I was, you know, where I came from. We’re all Asians. And I was like, that’s exactly how I feel. And yeah, so I feel like it was lucky to not have that chip on my shoulder or like not to have society put that chip on my shoulder, and force me to live it. And I was thinking about, you know, since like, what time did that change happen? What time did I actually feel like, okay, my identity has shifted, because I feel like being minority is, in many ways, like, the straight definition is sort of black and white, right? It’s a numbers thing. Like, if you have less of you in the population of whatever group you are, whether it be you know, you’re Asian, or you’re, I don’t know, college educated or whatever, you could be a minority, but feeling like minority is a completely different thing. And because, like, you know, the 1%, I guess, the 1% is a minority, and I don’t feel like their feeling of being minorities, the same as maybe sometimes Asian Americans feel as a minority, especially in the past, you know, one or two years in America. And I remember there was an incident in 2020, before, right before the election, I was at a bagel shop in California, and which is a very, I consider a pretty diverse place. You know, I’m where I live at. And at the bagel shop, I got yelled at by a white person, a white man that they don’t want to sit next to a Chinese or Japanese person, to which I was like, okay, and then he was like, you know, you need to stay away from me. And I’m voting for Trump. And I was like, excuse me. And then so that was really the first time I actually really felt like, oh, okay, so like, you know, there are people who think of me as this minority. And I feel like I’m a minority that I need to be looking out for myself or over my shoulders. But that incident, actually, you know, when that had happened immediately, everyone else in the bagel shop. I know, it’s not like the bagel shop is such like a non political place. But it did have another bagel shop, like a like when I was going to get breakfast, but everyone else at the bagel shop sort of came to my aid. And they’re like, Oh, that’s not okay. You need to like, are you talking about? And then the manager of the bagel shop, kick the man out there. He’s like, oh, you need to like, just leave, which I felt like, right? And I feel like okay, so like, maybe there is it’s not all bad. But it is a reality that people get told that and, you know, what happened to me was only verbal and it wasn’t even that, you know, it was not like violent. And so there’s a lot worse could happen and has happened to other people who are minorities, so, so yeah.
Jesse Lin 14:49
Well, first of all, I just want to say it hasn’t been a thing. But recently I feel like whenever someone starts a story with I was at a bagel shop. It gets really crazy. Like New York Post is like bagel shop, bagel shop, bagel shop, shop incidents. It’s very strange. I just wanna I just want to note that. Yeah, I’m, you know, I’m curious because we have a lot of different ethnic groups here. And they look very different. And I feel like that very much highlights this minority or difference between you and me. In China, I feel like there are also different ethnic groups. So you have like Tibetan folks like traditional Han Chinese, you have Mongolian folks. How do I mean, of course, I don’t know exactly your ethnic background, but like, do you have an idea of how each of these different ethnicities thinks of themselves? Do they think of themselves distinctly or they’re like, I’m Chinese?
Cherrie 15:45
Yeah, well, I’m Han Chinese. So another privilege that I do have, which is, you know, in a monoculture in China, which Han culture is definitely dominant. There are, I believe, 90% of the population or about 90% of the population is Han Chinese. And Han Chinese culture is what most people might have heard of, or think of when they think of Chinese culture, for better or for worse, you know, Confucius, you know, I don’t know, Dragon, Chinese New Year, and all that. I mean, other races do celebrate Chinese New Year as well. But it is the mainstream, like, quote, unquote, mainstream version of Chinese culture. And I think on paper, we at least have 56 ethnic groups in China, which is a lot. And when I was growing up, the obviously the, the line we all have to learn in elementary school is that China’s big garden, and we are 56 flowers, all thriving in the same garden. And we all get along great, which is not the reality. But um, but yeah, Han Chinese is the dominant race, or majority of race China. And so the other groups I’ve had, I have, you know, I guess, friends growing up that might be of other minority, you know, my minority ethnics. And I mean, thinking of self might as Chinese, I don’t know if I can answer that for them, given that China as a society is going in a certain direction of trying to, I guess, like here, you will say, we’re whitewashing things, you know, in China, we’re trying to Han-wash things. I don’t even know that that’s a thing. But the diversity is not celebrated. Not really, it might be in the propaganda. But the way I see it, I don’t think it’s celebrated. And in many ways, the, you know, the government is trying to erase the unique cultures that are not currently dominant, which is Han culture. So, so that’s yeah, I don’t know if I can answer that. But I, maybe that put it into perspective, a little bit.
Angela Lin 17:52
Actually, you brought up something that we meant to ask about when in the majority versus minority thing brought up class being something that stood out to you. But actually, we wanted to talk about that, from like, your perspective, when you were in China. Because seems like the government tries to suppress focus on like, the racial or ethnic differences between the population, and the majority of folks are Han Chinese. So we were postulating that then the main focus of like, what people are kind of segregating each other around is more socioeconomic. Is that a fair assumption? That that’s more the focus?
Cherrie 18:33
I would agree. Yeah, I think so. Socioeconomic status, and also rural and urban versus urban divide. That’s huge. And like, the Chinese cities that where I came from, are you know, like, it’s they’re all very glamorous, it’s all skyscrapers, new subways, and like, there’s always construction happening. And you know, everyone has the talking points, well, you go to China, and like five years or five years later, you go again, it’s, it’s all different. It’s just moving so fast. And I feel like, like, in a way it was coming to America had put that into perspective of like, the development, the fast development, economic development of like the first class, you know, Chinese cities, is built on the lower class, the backs of lower class people, right, like, migrant laborers and people low income and like gig workers, especially.
Angela Lin 19:25
Okay, so we talked about, obviously, there are shocks and weird experiences that come with becoming a minority as opposed to majorities so that’s part of it. But I imagine there were other just like cultural shocks that came with moving here. I’m curious what were some of those like bigger, biggest ones for you? That when you came to the US and started settling here, I don’t know. I’m just now I’m feeding you stuff on like dating or like the food or like, I don’t know if like, what were the biggest things that stood out to you?
Cherrie 19:58
Um, think this might not be a deep one, but it was it was real really real because I came to I landed in California, right? And I lived in a Chinese, like, what we call like middle tier city. And but like basically a metropolitan area, sort of in a bubble. And I’m never, not that’s not to say China’s all metropolitan, right, because obviously it’s not. And large parts of China’s definitely not. And it’s rural. And it’s very different. But I sort of lived in a bubble. And I landed in California. And I was like, is this a poor country? I was like, this seems like a poor country, because there’s no there are no skyscrapers besides a very small part of it. I’m just really ridiculous. But like, I was like, there’s no skyscrapers, every like building is like two storeys tall. And like, there are no subway and you know, LA has subway and I’ve been to the east coast and New York subway is just, it’s really old. And I couldn’t wrap my head around being an 18 year old, like, shiny skyscrapers doesn’t just mean like, actual economic status. Like, overall, if that makes sense. But also what I thought America is, like, should look like, like, you know, like in Friends, like when I watched it growing up, and But America, just like China is a huge place. And like New York subway being old, it’s not because New York is poorer than China is just because they built it 100 years ago. And if we have built our subway 10 years ago, of course, it’s gonna be newer and shinier. So yeah, so that’s, I know that I sound like a really silly teenager. Now, thinking back. Yeah. And then I was like, I mean, I do, I haven’t gotten college yet. I like, never taken one economic class, like a real one in my life. And I was just, I couldn’t understand it. And then I went to college. And sort of, like, get a better understanding of like how society works. That sounds so embarrassing. But yeah, I feel like that was, that was the first thing I could think of. And then also, I feel like the diversity not to like, put talking points of like, America is great. But like, the diversity that you do get to experience and see here, I feel like, especially on a college campus, like most college campuses, are is is very different from what you would experience in China. Obviously, everyone will be Chinese. And but here is feels like, not just like the university I went to is a public university. And not just like racial diversity, because, you know, I got to meet all people, different races, and then even like, class diversity, because I met like people, like whose parents are like illegal immigrants. And I met people who are like, who don’t have status themselves and then become DACA. Right. And I feel like that was really eye opening, in a way. Because these people because there was an intimidation of me, I was like oh, maybe they weren’t like me, cuz I’m like a Chinese international students, and there’s like stereotypes, but like, and then once we got to, like, sort of know each other, through like, I don’t know, class projects, clubs and all that, and you really sort of get an idea. Okay, so like, this could be what America means. But yeah, but I would say diversity is another cultural shock.
Angela Lin 23:19
Okay, something that we have talked about in the past, and I had my dad on our podcast, as our first guest way back in season one. And we’re talking about the idea of heritage, and the kind of like the importance of preserving the culture and heritage of our Chinese, Taiwanese, you know, families and history. And carrying that on into the future, and I think what we wanted to discuss was how important that is, to someone who grew up, in grew up and was raised in the Motherland, and because our, our guess is that, like, it’s not thought of as this like, sacred thing. It’s just, it’s just what you were like, it’s just what you did. And it’s just like that those were just the traditions and you just do those things. It’s just part of life. For just like for us, I think, because especially in our youth, we were very like rejecting of our culture, and we’re trying to, like re find it, reclaim it for ourselves. Now, the thought of like, the idea of heritage and like preserving this thing feels kind of like sacred and like another, you know, special little thing to us. Versus like my dad’s perspective, he was like, who cares? Life’s changing, like, preserve what you want. But like if, for example, he was like, Chinese New Year, like used to be a huge thing or like you You really observed the like, two to three week vacation thing, like people would fly home, you know, to the motherland and like, really spend that time with families and now it’s like, you have jobs like harder to get back. It’s not as observed as before any he’s like, it’s fine. Like, that’s who cares? You know? So I’m curious what your perspective is on just like the idea of heritage and preserving it and and passing it down, knowing that it was not as emphasized as like a special separate thing for you growing up.
Cherrie 25:21
Yeah, I mean, that goes back to like me not having the pressure of proving myself as Chinese. Because like, I literally am like, what are you going to? Especially if I come from a Chinese society? No one can tell me that, right? Like, made in China, like literally, so but I feel like, well, I had, I guess this goes back to cultural shocks. But first, like, I, my Asian American friends, often it’s an interesting thing, because I feel like they’re more, quote unquote, Chinese than I am. Meaning that like they, their parents teach them more like traditional culture stuff, and they make them go to Chinese school and learn the history. Versus to me, I didn’t have to learn the history because it was a communist country, and like, you know, and then for 30 years, and no one likes to talk about history, because not really allowed to, especially recent history, you can’t talk about it. And like Cultural Revolution was really literally about like, my parents generation grew up in the Cultural Revolution, right. So like, for them, it was literally about, like, breaking everything old, and like, like, traditional culture is bad. So. So it’s a complicated thing. And then I feel like for immigrant, which I’m feeling this myself being an immigrant now, that the point that where you move to a country, or like where you were born in a country, but like you came from a different culture from two, one or two generations back, that becomes a snapshot like that culture, that version of the culture at the time becomes snapshot, what your family tries to hold on, which is a beautiful thing, because you know, like, immigrant families got to stick together, like, and it’s a it’s a new place, and you’re a minority, but that tradition in a way, sort of just not frozen, but it’s preserved within the family. And it goes on, but like, the other culture, like, in the motherland then takes a form of its own, and like, develops its own path as well. And in China, like when I was growing up, nowadays, there’s a lot of nationalism that goes on. And it’s sort of like the state is China, like, we have ownership of Chinese culture, which I do not believe at all. And I feel like it’s a great thing, because culture is fluid. Right? And our heritage comes from that. And our heritage is, by that definition, also food and having multiple versions of it is a beautiful thing. Yeah, so I can’t tell you that you’re not Chinese, just because I came from a different slightly different maybe version of Chinese culture, right? Yeah.
Jesse Lin 27:53
That was an amazing explanation.
Angela Lin 28:16
Yeah, yeah. Literally!
Jesse Lin 28:29
Yeah, I think we can transition to our close the Fortune Cookie because we always like to end on a sweet treat. Probably either of you can answer me this question. Do they have fortune cookies in China? No?
Cherrie 28:45
Don’t let anyone tell you.
Angela Lin 28:48
Those started in San Francisco.
Jesse Lin 28:50
No, I know. But sometimes sometimes stuff like that. Like weirdly goes back.
Angela Lin 28:54
Ports over?
Cherrie 28:56
I do remember Panda Express was going back? I don’t know if it’s a thing. I don’t know if it became a thing. I never I don’t know if it became popular. I know Shake Shack is in China and it’s super popular.
Angela Lin 29:12
But that’s white people food?
Cherrie 29:13
That’s right. Yeah, but fortune cookie, I’ll say. Yeah. wholeheartedly American. Asian American.
Jesse Lin 29:22
Yeah. Well, that wasn’t the question. But I was just saying fortune cookie. The question is, what did you think of Asian Americans before you came over here to America? Like what’s the general perception of what Asian Americans are like when you’re growing up and living in the motherland.
Cherrie 29:41
It um, and it’s a shame to say this, it’s the model minority. The only Asian Americans me and my, like bubble knows are like the new immigrants that goes to Silicon Valley. Like that’s the group of new like immigrants from Mainland China or like other places in Asia, right? They have high paying jobs, they came to America for a Master’s or PhD degree. And like they came back and like, I remember when I was like, I have an aunt who immigrated to America like 30 years ago, and she comes back, she will bring like these fancy, it was like 90s, China, she will bring back these fancy like, like, stationery items like bookmarks, and we couldn’t buy them in China. Back then I was oh my god, this is great. Like, this is like the first country. And then I feel like that was but that was obviously a stereotype. And it was a small group of what makes up the Asian American population in America. And I came here and like, in college, people I meet are like second generation and their parents might came over as refugees, right, their parents might came over for whatever other reason, they came over for job and it’s, you know, the makeup of like, the people I know now, even being American, not for my whole life, but just for a decade is like, I feel like every class of people, you know, and it’s very diverse. So I feel like there was another cultural shock that I didn’t answer.
Angela Lin 31:09
What about because we’re selfish, and I think the reason we wrote this question was being like, egotistical towards ourselves, we’re like, What is your opinion of? What was your opinion of ABCs in particular? We’re like that kind of Asian American because I think we grew up feeling like our families in Taiwan had a certain perspective of us as ABCs. And I’m curious if that was a made up, you know, POV that we work with, or if you actually see ABC is, like, a certain way in the motherland.
Cherrie 31:46
Yeah, I, I don’t know cuz I okay. So the aunt that did immigrant to America, one time, she has a child. And I remember, like, they used to call him like, bananas as he like, he’s yellow on the outside and white in the middle. Now, I feel like it’s kind of offensive, because it’s like, you’re asking this child who grew up in America, right? Like, did not grow up in China, by the choice of his parents like to prove himself somehow to these people in the motherland. And I, you know, and then I came to America, myself, and I’ve been here a while that I sometimes have disagreements with like my parents or like my other relatives, and they will be like, oh, you’re so American now? And I’m like, you know, it’s not why do we like, why do we have to prove ourselves? You know? Yeah. So I feel like that’s an expectation that Angela, you should not try to live by? Because it’s nonsense.
Angela Lin 32:42
Thank you for validating us!
Jesse Lin 32:46
An episode and a life lesson all wrapped in one.
Angela Lin 32:49
Truly. Okay. Well, thank you for that validation. I feel better now. That That makes me feel positively leading into our closing closing off. So this was great. Thank you so much for joining us and providing your perspective. I think we learned a lot from from you seriously!
Cherrie 33:09
No, same here.
Angela Lin 33:10
Why don’t you tell our listeners where they can find With Chinese Characteristics. And if there’s anything like a new project, or anything that you want to plug, feel free to drop that here as well.
Cherrie 33:21
Yeah. Well, our podcast is called With Chinese Characteristics. And it’s on all major podcast platforms. And we do have a website where you can look up, you know, past episodes, and we sometimes post like found blog articles of like book reviews, movie Reviews, it’s withchinesecharacteristics.com. And we’re also on Instagram and Twitter. So feel free to follow us there. And, you know, talk to us about history and Asian American politics.
Angela Lin 33:50
Great. Well, if you listeners have enjoyed this episode, and the topics that we covered, or if you have a different perspective on the Asian American, grow up here versus grow up in motherland perspectives that we’ve provided, write us in about your own experience or feedback or questions that you may have for Cherrie at Telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com that you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. And of course, come back next week because we’ll have a fresh new episode for us then.