Angela Lin 0:20
Today we’re talking about an age old Asian thing, which is, I don’t know how to – pillar of Asian identity, like I don’t really know how best to describe it. But basically the concept of saving face. I feel like this is something that’s very foundational to certainly like Chinese Taiwanese culture, but I do think there is trickling down, or like influence on the other Asian cultures as well. To be fair, like, of course, as always, we don’t know jack shit, but I’m just postulating that because the Chinese Empire was so huge, and so long lasting forever. And we know that China had a big influence on all the other Asian countries just by the fact that like, a lot of them still use Chinese characters in their language. I’m just postulating that something like saving face maybe maybe originated in China, or like in Chinese culture, and like kind of became more pervasive. So maybe that’s why it’s, you know, I think it’s across all the Asian cultures, not just Chinese. But we wanted to discuss it today in terms of like, what it means to us the impact that it’s had on us the difficulty with kind of explaining it or reconciling with it within a Western context, and where we think it’s places kind of in our lives in our, in our future, like family’s lives, if at all. So Jesse, what, how would you define saving, the concept of saving face?
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 2:13
So first of all, I want to agree with you that I think it is across multiple Asian ethnicities across the whole entire Asian diaspora. And I think what you’re saying is actually pretty correct. I personally feel like the whole idea of Confucianism as a religion, it did spread pretty far. And within that there are a lot of those tenants of like, respect for your parents, and like respect for your family and like upholding the family virtue. And that, obviously spread past China to other countries. So I can definitely see like, where that kind of takes root. What does saving face mean, to me, I mean, it’s such a difficult thing to explain. Because you know, where you start is usually telling people, it’s this kind of, like embarrassment that you don’t want to accrue on behalf of your family. It’s not even like personal embarrassment, because like, it might be something where you personally don’t care at all, like how it reflects on you. But rather, it’s like something that will reflect badly on your pants, for example, I’m gay, I don’t care. I like being gay. But in the traditional sense of saving face, it would be something that I would be embarrassed about, on behalf of my family, because it’s a status that leaves me unable to fulfill some of the duties that being an only single male child, I should be able to fulfill like procreating and having a family and all that stuff. So that kind of leaves like what how else is it defined? It’s honestly it’s, it’s hard to say because it’s kind of enforced by your parents and your environment. So it’s kind of like when you’re a kid and you learn like not to touch hot things not to touch sharp things. You kind of get all those cues from people in your in your family and your environment with like, Oh, no, that’s bad. Or this is embarrassing. Like, how could you do this to me? And eventually you build this kind of idea of like, we don’t want to do these particular things because it could look bad about you know, on the family, but it is pretty difficult to define like clear black and white lines, at least for me.
Angela Lin 4:26
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I feel like it is so much like the learned definition through no no’s and things you’ve been shunned for in life for how you really understand it because it is difficult to explain it with no, I think no singular at least like English word can define what it really means. But I do like some of the terminology you used, I think, the idea of like how things reflect on your family almost like it’s a mirror, right? Like any action you do is like a mirror into your family and like, so you need to constantly kind of like watch what you’re doing to see what the impact of that action would be on your family in terms of if it will make them look good or look bad. And for me, I do think embarrassment is in there. But for me, I think it’s even stronger. It’s more shame. Like you’re trying to avoid bringing shame to your family, and that I didn’t even tie the Confucianism with it. But you make such a good point that it I’m sure it’s rooted in Confucianism, because the idea behind like, bringing honor to your family is your kind of like, highest thing you’re trying to strive for as like an Asian person in general just like you always want to bring honor to your family, your situation, yourself. And what’s the opposite of honor? It’s like shame, disgrace, like being outcast. So it’s like anything you’re doing that leans more into those negative words is not saving face. It’s like losing face, right. And I actually it’s really funny, I think we talked about this, but I, I like how like visual the words are in Chinese. Because in English, we say saving face, which is like you’re trying to protect it. But in Chinese you talk about like, Dui Lian, which is like to throw the face like you’re you’re like casting away the honor. Right? So like, it’s, it’s more spoken about in the negative term. It’s not like you’re trying to like save this thing and like protect this thing. It’s like, you’re literally choosing to like throw it on the ground, my honor. And like all this dignity. So you’re always trying to like avoid being dui lian. So and it’s always like visual in my head of like, oh, wow, like throwing something on the ground that you’re trampling on or something?
Jesse Lin 7:06
Well, I will add to the list of emotions that you throw out there, I think disappointment is also a huge one. And for me, I’ve always struggled a little bit with this, because disappointment to me is, it sounds kind of weird, but it’s a little bit more of a Western emotion, there’s more emotion to it, there’s more like negativity, there’s more personal investment in it. And I definitely feel like some of the other things where you just have like disapproval or like, disgrace. I don’t know, those are like, to me, it feels kind of like very black and white. But the disappointment is always the thing that was what I was chasing, and what I think did fuck me up for a little bit trying to find a way to be myself, but not generate disappointment for my parents. And of course, we’re talking about how the idea of saving face or dui lian is like, it’s changing because you you get reinforced on what it is based off of other people’s reactions. It’s always like, uncertainty as to like which things will be received well, which things won’t be received?
Angela Lin 8:15
Mmm, interesting. Well, I think a lot of what we’ve said, maybe we need to dig into a little bit more, which is that we keep talking about like, you know, the the changing idea of it that you’re like whether something’s approved, or disapproved is based on what others think. And I do think that it is a really integral part of the idea of saving face is that you’re not in control of any of it. Like it’s all dependent on how other people outside of you, outside of your family even are going to perceive the thing that you’ve done. And I I think that’s why the idea of saving face is so Asian is that like, we we’ve talked about this a lot. But Asian culture is so much more community oriented than American culture, for example, where it’s very individualistic, so like, America is literally about like DGAF, right, like, I don’t give a fuck because you’re just focused on you. You’re like, you don’t you don’t like me, like, I literally don’t care. You know, I mean, like, I that’s the energy that America gives off because it’s like, I’m gonna be me. I’m gonna do me, right? Like, that’s the whole like, ideology behind the US. Versus in Asia. That’s not how it is. You can’t just be out for number one, like you’re there to, you’re part of something bigger. And so the idea that you would make decisions that are good for you, but are going to have like negative consequences or negative reputational impact or whatever on those close to you or those in your community is unfathomable, versus like you try to explain how like bad that is to someone in Western culture? And they’re just like, I don’t get it. Like, why is this such a big deal? You know, I mean, it’s it’s so hard to reconcile with that, because they’re, it’s difficult to ever fully explain why it’s so important to us.
Jesse Lin 10:16
Yeah. And I want to go back to the thing last time, I was like how it reflects on other people in your community, like your choices. So generally, I feel like, you know, all parents everywhere care about how their children do, right? It’s how you are as a parent, but to what you were saying your point regarding the differences and how the choices of the child are attributed or not attributed to a parent. I feel like more so in Asian cultures, when you make a choice that’s not, let’s say, congruent to what the expectations are the parent takes it more personally, in the sense that they’re like, oh, like, what did I do wrong? Where did I go wrong with raising you or didn’t give you the right support or whatever like that you turned out this way that falls from the expectation? Versus I think for more, like westernized families in general, I think the parent will still have some kind of reaction, they’ll be like, oh, you know, like, you’re trying to be a rock star. Like, that’s kind of like, Nanyahh, but they’re gonna be like, disappointed that you made that choice, not disappointed in themselves, necessarily. And I’m sure you know, as I said, to each parent, there’s probably a little bit of that, but it’s definitely more pronounced, I think, in the Asian parents about really attributing the failures of their children to their own efforts.
Angela Lin 11:35
Yeah, I can’t agree more. I feel like it always goes back to the community versus individuality thing. But here in Western culture, it’s exactly what you’re saying. It’s like, yes, you had some impact on maybe like, the options that they had, or like the leanings that they had with interest or whatever. But ultimately, Western parents, assign more agency to their children and recognize that like, people make their own individual choices, regardless of like, environment and upbringing and whatever. So they, they don’t attribute it back to themselves fully. Versus Asian culture. It’s, you know, it’s, I think it’s two things. One is that, because of the whole idea of like, filial piety, and like respecting parents, respecting elders, parents are used to – Asian parents are used to having a greater sense of authority over their children and shaping who they become in life, because they’re more used to being able to tell you exactly what the fuck you’re gonna do with your life. You know, I mean? Like, there’s less, US pushing back, obviously, that’s changing with like, Western upbringings, and whatnot, but like, relatively speaking, an Asian kid in America versus like a white kid in America, Asian kids still gonna listen generally more to their parents than white kid. And so there’s like this level of control that they’re used to. So then if they feel like I have complete control over my child and the way that they’re brought up, then yeah, they are going to feel like completely responsible for the choices that you make, because they’re like, how could this go this way? I felt like I had like a tight rein on this, you know, I mean, so I think that’s part of it. And then the other part of it, it floated out of my brain. Now I’m remembering what I lost from my brain earlier, which is the other the other part of why Asian parents, it’s so deeply personal for them about like the choices that kids make and whatever is that because we have this idea of legacy in Asian culture, like you know, you come from a long bloodline of like, you can trace your family name back to like, 1000s of years ago, and there’s been this, like historical legacy tied to the Lin family or whatever, right. And so you’re part of something bigger. And when you do something that is disgraceful, it is bad on that legacy, and then bad on them. Because the way they see children is like, how they’re passing on their legacy, like you are the embodiment of their hopes and dreams for like, what they could not accomplish in their life. They’re passing on to the next iteration of them, which is the next like, step in the legacy. So if they are banking on you to fulfill everything they never got to do in their lifetime, and then you choose not to do the things they want it to do, then they’re like, what the hell, you know. So I, it’s, there’s so much pent up like, just like aspiration and hope that they’ve placed on you that I don’t know that Western parents place as much like they, of course, every parent has like hopes and dreams that like what their kids will end up doing. But because they recognize more that people are individuals who make their own choices, they’re not like, hey, kids gonna turn out how they’re going to turn out versus like, Asian parents are like, no, I have this dream for you, you’re gonna do it.
Jesse Lin 16:29
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if it’s just an immigrant thing. You know, like, if, when you’re coming from, you know, we’ve just talked about in the past, like, how just wildly different our parents lives were compared to their lives now. And so sometimes I wonder if that’s just, that’s just a gap that we always have to any immigrant has to bridge because you’re always coming here, with this life dream of fulfilling, you know, more than you had.
Angela Lin 16:56
I think that’s fair. But I think it still exists, because all you have to do is watch any, like Asian drama, to know that it still exists in Asia, because if it’s not about immigration, then it’s about moving up in socio economic, you know, the socio economic ladder. So like, you know, I had a food stall my whole life and was able to, like, support our family through this business, but I didn’t get to finish college. So I need my kids to finish college and like, have a white collar job. Or even if you’re rich, like, I mean Crazy Rich Asians is not real life, but like, they tapped on some, some legit element of Asian or Chinese culture, which is like, especially rich people, their most important thing is maintaining their legacy. So if they’ve already hit peak, they can’t fall down from peak. So they need to make sure that their kids like – they need their kids to like, take on what what they’ve built, right? So like, if it’s if it’s like, they’re the CEO of a multi million dollar, multi billion dollar Empire, whatever, and their kid is like, I don’t want to take on the family business, then it’s like, no, you’re not gonna reject this. You know? And like, who you’re gonna marry better be as good as like our socio economic class, because if not, you’re also gonna bring shame to us. So I think it exists everywhere in the Asian diaspora, including in Asia, but to different degrees. And I definitely agree with you that like the immigrants will always have like a very deep hopes and dreams because they made such a big sacrifice to change up their lives to come here. It just I think it exists in all different degrees everywhere, though. And so going back to like things that would also cause you to lose face. So yeah, starting from the default, right? So like, if you decided you didn’t wanna have kids at all, that’s fucking bad. Because, again, legacy, it’s all about passing down the blood, blood line,
Jesse Lin 18:55
Divorce, Divorce?
Angela Lin 18:56
Divorce. Yes. Which we’re talking about what Shibani and that’s certainly spans into South Asian culture. Yes. divorce.
Jesse Lin 19:04
Not dating in the race?
Angela Lin 19:06
Girl. Yes, I read that one I was so I had so much like pent up anxiety about introducing my parents to Ramon in the beginning, because I was like, even if he’s the most fantastic person out there, will you still feel ashamed just because he’s not Chinese. It’s like, everything that is a significant life choice. I would say – a career, relationship, a family, like all these big things, because those are the most important in their minds, and also the most likely to be bragged about or gossiped about, because that’s the opposite, right? If you’re not able to brag about it, people are probably gossiping about you, which just like brings even more shame to you because you’re being talked about negatively.
Jesse Lin 19:51
Yeah. And honestly, like sometimes I think about it, and I’m like, really the the part that’s missing if there was communication about the expectation I think it would have been a lot easier to navigate it. But because it’s always like unspoken, like what is desired? You’re always like, what exactly is it that you want? There’s no basis by which you can have a conversation about what those expectation looks like. Because it’s always like, uhhhh?
Angela Lin 20:16
Oh, I don’t know, I think some of those are communicated, like I was explicitly told career wise, like, you better make you better go into something that’s gonna, like, make a bunch of money. And by that, I mean, like two things, doctor, lawyer, businessmen like that. That’s kind of like it. And then marriage, like we talked about in the interracial episode, it was literally like, from when boys weren’t icky to me, they were like you better marry Chinese speaking person. And then, well, let’s let’s go into this, because I think it’s naturally flowing that way. But for me, the other one was when my brother came out as gay. They were like, okay, well, now you need to have kids, because you’re our only hope to pass down the like Lin family bloodline. So let’s get into that. Because you brought up, you know, you’re coming out, has certainly a topic related to saving face. What was that experience like? Not just coming out in general, but like, how did it relate to your concept of saving face that you were brought up on? And like, did it affect certain decisions that you made in terms of like, how you would tell when you would tell all that stuff.
Jesse Lin 21:33
I mean, it really did. Because when I was thinking about telling my parents, really only my mom knows at this point in time, but I was thinking about telling them. I wasn’t necessarily thinking about just how they would feel about it, but rather, what kind of pressure they would be under from their family and their community. And it’s not even necessarily that I’m thinking about, like, the pressure that they would put on my parents if they knew, but rather the pressure of keeping that secret from other people. And so even just a thought about thinking about coming out, you have to think about this wider group of people that your parents are entangled with. And whether or not holding that secret will make them miserable, basically. So it’s not just about their personal individual orientation towards how they would react on that news, but how they can manage that in themselves. And that’s why for a long time, I didn’t tell any of my neither of my parents because I was like, I don’t really need the support, like I’m comfortable with who I am, where I am, what I’m doing. And so what I was really waiting for was a moment where I felt like they were telling me that they were comfortable taking on this information, knowing that they have to manage it for this entire kind of community. And in fact, like, I think it was really hard for my mom, because she was like, oh, like, you know, she was telling me how she, she didn’t want me to tell my dad and she had to like manage it. She was like, I want to like try to figure out how to do this. And then for a long time, I don’t think she told anyone else either. Until recently, we had another conversation, I was like, feel free to tell whoever you want, like, I don’t care. But if it will make you feel better about it, to have someone to talk to you like that’s what I really wanted for her and not for her to feel so isolated from the community, because I am gay.
Angela Lin 23:34
Wow, that’s interesting, because it’s similar, but you focus on different aspects of saving face for your parents then I think my brother did when he came out. Well, first of all, I don’t think I gave him the choice so that we didn’t talk about those other episodes that he joined and he was nicer about framing it where he felt like Angela helped me with coming out? But the reality is that I was like, 12 at the time, and I didn’t understand why being gay was a big deal. And I essentially blabbed to my parents. I was like, Well, no, I didn’t say it outright, but I was just like, I was like, hinting at it. And then I was like, don’t you get it? And essentially, I outed him. And very innocently, frankly, because as a child, it literally was like, I didn’t see what the big deal was. And as a kid, I was just like, how could you have not told them yet? Like, this is so important, and like, it’s just who you are, like, let’s just share it. And so that’s, that’s how it came out. And so there was no choice, it’s for my parents to like, choose or not choose to hold this. So then it was really about mitigating the ripple effect onto everyone else. And I do remember the conversation that my mom had where she was just like you could tell she was like desperately trying to like figure out how to contain this like shame slash poison, I guess that she was seeing it as at the time, which is she was just like, well, you can’t we can’t tell anyone in the family like this has to say here, we’re not going to tell any of your aunts and uncles or cousins and like, I will die if my mom finds out like, you know, essentially, at the time, it was so drastic that she was like, I’m disowning you like, this is so shameful that I’m disowning, you, you’re not part of this family anymore. And of course, this is very, like, you know, impulse driven, and like, first reaction type stuff, because of all the shame that she had been brought up on, around the idea of homosexuality. So obviously, that’s not how she thinks now and they’re fine. My brother still lives with them so it’s considered, not disowned. But it really was, like, such an immediate, like, trickling out into so many layers of our, like, extended family, like, how do I contain this, and when, later when she was, like, you know, more used to the idea, and like, not to say that I don’t think they are ever going to be like, I love the idea that you’re gay, but they’ve accepted it to this, you know, at this point. And so sometimes my brother will kind of like stoke the fire, and he’ll be like, so can I tell, like, XYZ family member now? And she’d be like, no, you know what I mean, she’s just like, absolutely not. And he’s like, why not? It’s not a big deal. Like, who cares anymore? Because it’s, you know, he’s, he’s lived here long enough, where he’s like, you know, it doesn’t matter to me, and like, certainly everyone else in his life knows outside of like, our extended family. So he’s like, it’s not for me, it’s clearly for you. And like, I think what he grapples with is like, he feels restricted, because he’s like, I don’t feel like I get to live my full like, free self, because you’re telling me that I can’t, like tell these people in our family because of the shame that you feel because he doesn’t feel any shame or disgrace from it. So it’s interesting, because it’s the same topic. And there’s the same like fears, but it’s from like, a different angle, I think. Okay, so for all the strife and the, you know, agony that this idea of saving face and maintaining the you know, honor for your family has brought you and me and all Asian people in our lives, do you think there is any merit or benefit to maintaining this kind of concept in your current life, your future life and like, you know, if you just have kids or whatever it people you have impact influence over in the future? Do you think it’s worthwhile?
Jesse Lin 27:44
I think we should take out of the idea of saving face is that there’s definitely some kind of kindness, a courtesy to it, that I think is worth preserving. And where I think we can make it better is to really explain why that is important. Right? Like, as we were talking about earlier, it’s so hard to say why it is important. I think that’s part of the reason why it’s such a headache for a lot of for both of us and probably for a lot of other Asian Americans is that there is a there’s a place that it comes from where it’s you know, consideration and care about this person about your community. And where it can get better is to really just help each individual community member, person, your family, your child, whatever, understand why it is so important so that they have a better appreciation of like what you’re pushing for. Of course, I will caveat that with that I’ve never gonna put if I ever do have a child, I would never push them to do a thing that I want. But I will explain to them like, hey, I think you should do this thing. I think it’s important because of this, it has this personal significance for me. Do with that what you will, but you know, I’ve given you all the information about it.
Angela Lin 28:52
Yeah. Meanwhile, I think a dog is dying in your background, really terrific dog barking.
Jesse Lin 29:00
Sorry. There always is. There’s a few few pups in the building. What about you?
Angela Lin 29:45
I agree with you completely. I think well first what I’ll latch on to strongly is that I completely agree that the part that’s worth saving is the compassionate part where you are being considerate of other people and thinking about how your consequences impact other people. I think that’s just compassion and empathy. And that’s very important to me. And something that I think is worthwhile passing on, even outside of this concept. But it’s so tied to why this concept is important. What I think we can do away with is the root of where this comes from, which is shame and disgrace, right, those ideas, those super negative ideas, because I think what drives people to preserve your face save face, is the desire to avoid shame. It’s a fear of succumbing to this like super negative thing. And so you’re desperately trying to run away from this negative thing. So you’re going to be good to avoid the negative consequence, as opposed to just being good, because you know, you’re doing good for other people. So I think if I were to pass on this concept, it would not be framed the same way it would be framed in terms of like, hey, why don’t we think about, like, when we make choices, and when we perform actions in life, think outside yourself, I think that’s the kind of big takeaway is like, you can still make your own choices and like, you weigh the pros, cons and like the impacts and whatever. And still, you can still choose to do stuff that might have some negative impact on other people. Sure. But like, at least you thought about it, right? Versus like, I think in America, there is maybe a two extreme world where like, there’s so much YOLO and like DGAF, like, you know, just out for yourself that there isn’t enough emphasis on other people. Well, first of all, we just to be transparent, we fucked up and our fortune cookie closing section was supposed to be about it, if this was something that we want to pass on, but we kind of rolled it into the merits and benefits oopsies. So I think another one that another topic that we thought about potentially discussing to close this off is, if a decision that we’ve made in the past that was tied to wanting to save face actually turned out good for us. And Jesse was just mentioning to me off off the record that it’s difficult, because a lot of our decisions in life are tied to saving face, because it’s constantly in the back of our heads. But I’m just thinking back to it, like big decisions in my life, I guess. And for me, I think one of the ones that did have a strong lasting impact is when I was 15. Right? I was like, I saw my first band. And I was like, I want to work in music. Like I want to work in the music industry. And if I don’t think if I were Asian, and like, and was thinking about, like how I could still salvage this passion that I wanted to go after with something that could be packaged up in a nice, like, Asian approved package, I don’t think I would have gone to business school. Because the way that I had to justify going into a career in music was that I would get a business degree. And then like intern in at record labels and stuff so that I could pursue what I wanted. But I could justify that with like, while she went to NYU Stern, like it’s so it’s fine. So then, then I wasn’t bringing as much disgrace in my family because my mom could always say like, well, she’s going to like one of the best business schools in America, like, you can latch on to the part that sounds good to her. But I could do the thing I wanted. And so I was good for that, because I didn’t bring shame to her right away. But also for me, because realistically, like I don’t know, if I was just like when I go to music, and I was just like, I’m just going to like, I don’t know, tailgate concerts and like, try to like squeeze my way in there without like getting a degree. I don’t, I don’t know if I’d be where I am now. Because obviously like I don’t currently work in music. It’s the idea of working in entertainment still part of my life. But it’s not like music industry is not my my thing. So maybe if I didn’t have the business degree, I wouldn’t have been able to pivot later into other things. Because if my entire skill set was like related to the music industry and like hands on experience, and I never got that education. I probably couldn’t transition into other things as easily.
Jesse Lin 34:46
That’s a good one.
Angela Lin 34:48
Yeah, how about you?
Jesse Lin 34:49
I think, you know, I play piano for a lot of my life. I really want to get back into it. I feel like it really made me smart. And now when I look at a piano I’m like, holy crap, I’m so stupid like, I can feel my brain trying to be like c, d. e, f, g like. But yeah, I think a lot of the pressure and the not wanting to to encounter the shame actually helped me develop good habits. I think my parents really tried to push me to excel here and, you know, packing on the little bit of disappointment when they’re like, you go to a recital and you’re like in the middle of the thing and you’re like oops, I don’t remember how to play the rest of it. That really helped, like, kick me into trying to practice more and like, really just be more into it, because I was already doing it. And so I definitely do from that perspective feel like it helped me develop musically in a way that I probably would not have by myself, because I’m lazy.
Angela Lin 35:51
And you said, though, that you think that’s translated into in general how you approach adopting good habits,
Jesse Lin 35:58
In general, in adopting good habits? I feel like Yes, because now I know that I have to force myself to stick to something – the interest is not enough. The interest is not enough, and this seems like pretty obvious to most people. But for me, I’ve always been like, oh, if I’m interested enough in it, I’ll do it. It’s not true. It needs to be interested in like two weeks of consistent, like, grinding my face to the thing. And then I’m like, Alright, I’m here. I’m here.
Angela Lin 36:25
Well, there you have it, there’s some good to influenced by the idea of saving face. And so if you listeners have your own experience about how the foundational concept of saving face has impacted your life, for good or for, for better or for worse, write us in because I think we’re really interested to hear how this idea has kind of trickled into other people’s lives. And as you know, we’re always soliciting listener submitted stories for our reflections episodes. So do write us in at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com that you’re is Y-O-U-R-E, we’re very eager to read your stories.