Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI
[00:00:00] Jesse Lin: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin.
[00:00:02] Angela Lin: And I’m Angela Lin. Welcome back to another episode of, but Where are You really from? Today, we’re talking about couples counseling. Why are we talking about this ? Well, I think there are several reasons. One is that we know that everything to do with dating, relationships, intimacy, romance, all this stuff is very interesting to all of you because it’s always like one of our top performing genre of topics that we talk about.
And previously we’ve discussed like our experiences with individual therapy. So it kind of like bridges those two worlds. It’s also. Relevant from like a timely standpoint in that we’ve both at least tried couples counseling, couples therapy to some extent, or have done some research into like wanting to explore it.
I don’t think it’s talked about a lot because no one likes to talk about their, like, problems with relationships with friends unless it’s just like complaining about the other person. Right. Yeah. Um, and like I feel like there’s still more of a taboo around the concept of couple therapy Sure. Than, yeah, than like regular therapy for your self is becoming more like kosher and like people are embracing that of like, yeah, you go to therapy.
Like, good for you. Like couples therapy is not at, don’t like at all on that
[00:01:25] Jesse Lin: same level. So couples therapy is giving individual therapy from like 10 years ago when people are like, you’re a failure.
[00:01:31] Angela Lin: Yes. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so I think we wanted to start with like, what exactly is couples counseling?
What shape can this take and how does it differ from individual counseling? I think a lot of us, when you think about therapy, it feels like. There’s so much crossover between like if someone can do individual therapy, they should be able to do couples therapy. At like my therapist, I found her through Ramon initially, and then I’m the one who like extended it into hawk therapy.
And so especially because she knows both of us. When I first was interested in broach and concept of couples counseling, I was like, Hey, can you facilitate therapy for the both of us? And she was like, no, . Like, it was like a very fast, like no, I’m not qualified to do that. Mm-hmm. . And I was like, that’s so interesting because why?
Like, it just, it didn’t make sense in my head cuz I was like, you know me, you know him. Like, you know, all of our baggage because you’ve been listening to my, at least my side of it for like a long time. Mm-hmm. , it felt like especially she would be like the best connector point and she was just like, no, it’s not the same because like couples therapists are trained in managing.
The dynamic between two people, like it’s a totally different thing than just like being totally focused on one person and like being able to facilitate, like making sure each person gets time and that like you are leaving time for you as a therapist to give feedback and to like kind of guide the discussion and all that stuff.
So she was like, no, I’m sorry. I’m not, like, I can’t because I’m not trained in that I’m not qualified. Mm-hmm. Um, and so she referred me to like a specific organization that she like, knows people in. Um, that she was like, it, it might be a good like resource for you to find your own person, but she was like, it’s not the same.
I can’t do it. .
[00:03:28] Jesse Lin: Yeah. Well, my therapist was very much the same way. I originally approached him about it and he was like, I don’t do couples. And I think that there are some situations where the training is not there. But I also being partnered with someone who just graduated from a Master’s in psychology program.
I do feel like John, for example, was trained on all that, but there’s definitely like a preference level as to whether or not you feel comfortable working with the couple as well as your ex, your like actual educational experience in managing that because. There’s, you know, kind of like what you learn in school and then like applying it in real life is definitely more difficult.
And I definitely think that managing a group dynamic is much harder than doing a one-on-one situation. And I think there’s also that baggage concept that you’re talking about, even though your therapist has seen both you and Ramon. It’s hard to be able to kind of objectively assess what is going on.
Even though you have kind of like equal input from both sides, you have too much information, right? So you already like know the ins and outs of things too much. So I think also sometimes that’s why individual therapists will be like, I’m not gonna do this for you and your partner. You know, there’s already too much context there for me to have an objective evaluation of your partnership and do this kind of therapy.
As a couple. For me, it’s like probably the biggest reason is just so that the therapists can remain like objective in evaluating how you are as
[00:05:03] Angela Lin: a couple. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, they’re only humans, so they can’t help but be. It’s a little biased if they’ve heard mostly your side for like a long time.
Yeah. One thing that I did notice that was like just a very slight nuance, but I was like, I wonder why this is, I don’t know if you noticed in like your research, but when I was looking for couples counseling, that’s actually more how it was referred to like couples counseling, not couples therapy. Even though I was like, I mean it is therapy, right?
But like as opposed to, you don’t search for like a counselor unless it’s, every time I think of a counselor, it’s like a school, like a school counselor or like something more clinical almost. Yeah. Is what I associate with a idea of a counselor for like an individual therapist setting. Yeah. But when it came down to looking for a couple’s resource, couple’s counseling was kind of like the nomenclature.
Yeah. Used a lot. And I just found that really interesting cause I was like, uh, is this different? And maybe it is. I had never done any sort of couples, whatever, like counseling, therapy, whatever you wanna call it, before being in this relationship. And so my only exposure to like what this even was, it’s like tv, you know, like reality tv, where they’re like like in with their couple’s counselor or therapist and like dishing about their shit.
So I had like a conception of what it might be. And also obviously I’m bringing my like individual therapy sessions into what, like, and just like making assumptions based on that. So maybe there’s a difference between couples therapy and couples counseling because at least for. Because mine is like, I think more like she refers to herself more.
Counseling, like couples counseling. There is almost more of like an instructive element to it where they’re trying to like teach you specific ways to like work in your relationship dynamic. And there is sharing time and like for us to, you know, speak about specific experiences and how we feel and blah, blah.
But as opposed to like what I witnessed on reality TV, when they’re in with their therapist, it’s literally just like complaining and almost like more the traditional idea of therapy for the individual self at least. Where it’s literally like mostly you guys talking and then the. The therapist is just there to like ask questions of like, Hey, are you sure you’re thinking about this the right way?
Mm-hmm. , like, what about these things that might be driving that, but more guiding the discussion, but less like intervening almost. So I don’t know if you saw any dis. Distinguishing factors between counseling and therapy with regards to like when you were searching for couples resources?
[00:07:51] Jesse Lin: Honestly, I didn’t, but for, but I, what I did notice is that each of the therapists has like different methodologies or frameworks that they use on their couples.
They might be more well practiced in a specific framework than. I will say officially I have done one couple session and not technically in couples counseling because we’re searching for one, but I do feel like what you were saying in terms of the session that I had versus what I have individually, it’s quite different.
So the couples session and also because it was kind of a limited time, like once thing that my individual therapist did, but it was definitely a lot more guided, like it was a fully guided session. Like it wasn’t kind of just. Open to like saying whatever you want. It was kind of like there were prompts and then he would push us along the way to talk about our feelings about each other or bring up like positive memories from the past or something like that.
But it wasn’t just kind of like free association like it is with individual therapy, because a lot of times with individual therapy, I just kind of go in and. You know, my therapist is like, what do you want to talk about this week? Like, what’s been troubling you? And it’s really kind of just like loosey goosey free association kind of situation.
But this was very different. It was highly structured with like specific questions and activities and and things to do in the session.
[00:09:10] Angela Lin: Yeah, probably why many individual therapists don’t wanna just randomly say yes to. Dynamics cuz it’s totally different in how they have to prepare as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, well let’s get into the meat of it. So let’s start with each sharing why we were motivated to seek out couples counseling, therapy, whatever resource. Um, I can start first for. Us or for me, cause I was the one who was driving it. I mean, honestly, at a certain point it just feels like if you keep doing things the same way and getting the same shitty results, like you must be doing something wrong.
And so for me it was like all of our fights felt like they were. , the same underlying issues that kept coming up, but just like manifesting with a different topic, right? Like it could start with as dumb of a thing as like leaving, you know, something out in the living room and kind of like the way we talk to each other about putting that away or whatever.
But it’s not about that thing. It’s about like our certain dynamic or like trigger points and whatever. And for me, it just felt. We kept smashing against a wall, whereas like we aren’t solving these issues well, yeah. Where we’re letting things get out of control and I’m noticing very specific patterns that we’re not able to break.
And then thinking about how individual therapy was helping me so much with just like, being more open to exploring what’s the root like. Even if I keep having patterns of stuff, like knowing what’s driving that so that I can be more aware and then like hopefully stop giving into that as much. Like I just knew that there must be some benefit here where like if I’m seeing benefit from an individual standpoint, there must be something we can do from like a couple standpoint to.
Happier together during conflict especially. So that was my motivation. How
[00:11:11] Jesse Lin: about you? Yeah, I wanna say it’s very similar, just that we were coming up kind of against the same problems continuously, and although. I personally feel like our communication about individual needs is very strong. There was still this kind of gap between understanding each other and what was happening in reality, and at a certain point I just felt like it was no longer enough for us to just continuously talk about it.
And we needed someone to objectively look at the situation and be like, is this making sense? Is the communication working? And like what are things, tactical activities we can do to really like cement changes in behavior and so that each of us can have our needs met. And so I think that was really the similar thing to you.
We we’re just like coming against the same challenges like again and again and again. And at some point you just kind of have to be like, I can’t do this like by myself. Like I, I don’t have the answers. I’ve tried all the tools in my itty bitty tool belt and need someone else to, to come in and, and have a look, see, and see what’s going.
[00:12:24] Angela Lin: Hey listeners, wondering how you can support us. The biggest way is by increasing our visibility by following us on Instagram at where are you from? Pod on TikTok at, but where are you really from? Subscribing to our YouTube channel Under, but where are you really? From podcast rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts and telling your friends, the more people we can get to listen to the show, the more we can continue spotlighting different perspectives and.
And if you feel so inclined, we’re also accepting donations@buymeiacoffee.com slash Where are you from? Thanks y’all. I think the next thing we wanted to talk about was kind of the different methodology that we have experienced. And like we’ve mentioned now, like every counselor slash therapist is different, so you’re not gonna, like, if you’ve never done couples counseling before and you’re interested in doing it, like you’re gonna have to vibe out your person because everyone does it differently.
Or just like two examples of ways that it could play out. And then once we explain the methodologies, I think we’re just gonna go into kind of like q and a with each other about our experiences, just so that you guys have a little bit more insight into what. This kind of couple’s situation might entail and how it could or could not benefit you?
Um, if you’re interested for me, um, I mentioned that we found our woman through a like organization that my individual therapist recommended. So it’s called the Couples Institute. And anyone can go on their website, they have a certain roster of the. Globally, although I think they’re largely Bay Area, our woman doesn’t live in the us.
We actually happened to be connected with her because we were going to be in Korea for, you know, um, several months. And we needed someone that was gonna work in our time zone. So she’s actually based in like South Africa, very random, but. It worked out. And specifically with this organization, they have a very specific methodology that they use.
So I think all the therapists that are associated with Couples Institute, they have the same kind of like toolbox that they bring in. And then of course, every person is like slightly different in how they work with their clients. So I’m sure they tailor it. She started with trying to educate us on like the foundational stuff that.
Occurring in every single couple. So that sh we knew kind of like what is considered normal to be going through. Because I think a lot of times, especially when you’re in conflict and things are so heated and you feel like you’re at a standstill, you can think like, are we crazy? Like, are we just never gonna work because like, who else could possibly like withstand this kind of shit right now?
And like be in a healthy relat. And so it was really helpful that like in the first few sessions she basically took us through like what are the natural stages of a couple from when they like first get together and are like really eager to bond and like figure out all the things you have in common up through.
When you start kind of figuring out like your each’s different voice and like your different opinions. And then moving into like clashes where you’re then having like power dynamic struggles and eventually from there it’s just like at that point, couples have two options. Like you are not seeing eye to eye on anything and like it feels really hard to keep going and you can either, Break up, which was like a really hard reality for her to just say like, that’s literally like an option.
It’s like you’re just, it’s not gonna work. Or you take this opportunity to say like, we need to find a different way of doing things if we want different results. And so then like that setup was kind of like the way in to teaching us like, what are these different ways to deal with things and with the end goal being.
Instead of viewing conflict as like a negative thing, seeing it as almost like a puzzle for you as a couple to like work on together to learn more about each other and find like a solution, a joint solution, to like both feel good coming out of that conflict. So it was very different for me because at, especially in the beginning, I think she was.
relying too much on the materials where I was like, I haven’t spoken a single word in like 60 minutes and I didn’t know I was setting up for like PowerPoint. You know what I mean? So I, and that’s actually a good point, is like, I think for individual therapy and couples therapy, it is really important to give feedback to your person if you feel like you are not getting what you want out of the session.
They’re not gonna be but hurt. Like obviously be kind and respectful in the way that you deliver the feedback, but like they’re there to help you. So after I gave feedback of like, Hey, I need to make sure that we have like sharing time as well because we need to apply it to us. Otherwise this is like not gonna actually help us just to know these things.
And she was like, that’s a great point. So then she kind of like tailored how much time. Spending on like the educational part and then how much time we got to share, how it applies to us. But that’s kind of how that institute works and how her, then she brought that methodology in. It was like every session she had like a specific, almost like a module of like, you know, certain type of conflict or like reason, so for example, like a whole lesson of like triggers and where they came from and like how to re.
Them and that kind of stuff. Like then we’d work through examples. So it was always very structured in that
[00:18:04] Jesse Lin: way. Nice. So, of course my situation is not like an ongoing one, but I can definitely speak to kind of how it rolled out. I am not a big fan of saying specific kinds of therapy cuz there’s like cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever.
Like I can never remember what each of these things are. So like I, I will just explain how I felt. And before I start, I do wanna say like, usually when you start working with a therapist, they’ll do like a 15 minute intake session with you to kind of describe what the problems are. I think originally when I did this I was like not really paying much attention to it, but I think it’s actually really important because this is when you can tell your therapist, like, I prefer that you coach me through things like this.
I prefer that you focus on feelings or I prefer that you focus on like actionable things. And that way the therapist knows like, okay, cool, this is what you want and it’s in my wheelhouse, or this is what you want. Maybe it’s not in my wheelhouse. And you can like match yourself to the, to the right person before you even.
Wasting your time and money working with the person. My therapist is very focused on digging deep to figure out like what exactly you’re feeling, like what your tension is, what your emotion is, and then trying to be accepting of that and acknowledging of it. Because I think a lot of the times you get into a situation where there’s a frustration and you feel even worse about it because you’re like down on yourself for feeling that way.
You’re. I shouldn’t feel shitty and this is shitty and it’s stupid. Or like, I don’t want to acknowledge this emotion because it’s a waste of my time and like it doesn’t feel like it’s a part of me. And a lot of the therap therapeutic work that I do with him is basically acknowledging that these emotions are coming from a place of almost self-love, like self-preservation, and the need to like protect yourself and it serves a purpose and it’s a piece of yourself that you.
Extend kind of love and warmth to, and so I think that was how he applied it to the session that I did with my partner. It was definitely more structured, but a lot of the exercises were about really recalling positive or like highlight moments of our relationship and speaking those actually to each other.
So it was almost like he was giving the prompt and then we were having the conversation and just like remembering all of these good moments that we had together. So acknowledging, again, like finding those emotions, those really deep emotions, I’m bringing them to the surface and acknowledging them. For those of you who are glass half empty, sometimes I feel like this helps me a lot because a lot of the times I think that I tend to.
Negatively in terms of how I think and which things are kind of like top of mind when in like, you know, in reality like there are a lot more positive things. It’s just kind of like the weight of it is different in my head. And so it helps to pull up these positive emotions and remind me that, hey, there are like all of these good things about X, Y, and Z being in my life.
So this is kind of. How my therapist approaches it.
[00:21:14] Angela Lin: I love that and it actually, I see parallels. I think even if you have different methodologies, I do think there’s similarities in kind of what they’re trying to do. One of the main things that my woman does a lot, emphasizes a lot is that the only way that you’re gonna be able to like become a stronger couple is if you build really strong trust between the two of you.
And all of these little things like remembering and naming all these happy times that you had together and stuff are ways that you are building trust with each other. And similarly, my woman also does kind of that like at the start of every session, she does ask like, Hey, before we even start like Ramon, what did Angela do well this week?
In terms of like trying to, you know, change the relationship dynamic. Angela, what did Ramon do? So it’s nice to kind of hear like the other person uncensored, uh, viewpoint on that. And then also something that she emphasized really early on that we are still not like great about doing. But I see why she emphasizes it, is she’s like every single.
you need to spend dedicated time together, whether it’s as short as like five minutes because you’re so busy, you like can’t spare more than five minutes. Or if you have the luxury of like, you know, an hour or whatever, where all you do is affirm each other, there’s touch, like you’re hugging or you’re holding hands or like whatever.
And all you’re doing is like saying what you admire about the other person or like what they’ve done well today, what you’re proud of them for. And it is not, it’s like a sacred time when you’re not allowed to talk about things that are like, Bothering you or like trying to solve problems that you have in your relationship.
It’s like just a time to uplift each other and to like physically, you know, be close with each other. Hmm. And she was like, it’s important because once you build up enough of a bank of these types of moments together, when you’re in conflict, Easier to remember that you love each other, . Because when you’re in the heat of things, you’re like, I fucking hate you.
Right. , you’re just like, I don’t even know I love you anymore. Why? Against God. Yeah, exactly. And so she’s like, you need to have a strong bank because every time a conflict happens, you’re essentially kind of like withdrawing a little bit from the bank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she’s like, if your bank is empty, you’re fucked.
You know what I mean? So she is like, you need to do that. Um, and it’s all about trust. So. That’s like something I see parallel with how your therapist
[00:23:49] Jesse Lin: brought that up. I love that, and I totally agree. I, I totally agree that a big part of it is just you’re like building trust in each other to be there for each other and.
Something that I wanted to add regarding how my therapist does it that I really like is acknowledging your feelings, I think makes it easier for you to acknowledge your needs, like in a really clear and non-heated way. And I think that that’s so important because a lot of the times, many of the problems are just kind of small things that you’ve repressed and then it just like builds over time and you don’t.
What need it’s connected to. So I, I really like that because it puts the partnership and the perspective of what it is, which is that it’s a partnership made out of two individual people who bring their own individual needs and emotions into the relationship. The partnership, for me, part of the frustration was I felt.
A lot of the challenges we had, I have no agency in rectifying ’em or like moving the needle. And so being able to speak my own needs and my own emotions kind of gives me back a little bit of the agency in the relationship because I’m like, oh yes, like I own this part of. This is what I need and I can say like, this is enough or this is not enough.
[00:25:16] Angela Lin: I love that. And again, I’m like, there are so many similarities. One of the like also key structures that our therapist taught us is the way to work through conflict, which we have not perfected by any means, but we’ve practiced with her in the session. So we like in theory, Understand how it should work and that we, we can like see what it can do if you can actually like keep your emotions in check during the conflict to like get through the exercise is similar to you about kind of like expressing what emotion you’re feeling and whatever first, and like owning that instead of going into.
Accusations, which is most people’s kind of like default way of working in conflict because you’re kind of like defending yourself, right? So it is just like you feel like you are attacking an enemy almost, right? And so she was like, instead of doing it like that, where it’s like it’s your fault. You’re the one who did this.
Like you made me feel like that. It’s starting with a vulnerability. , which takes courage to even start with that, and then expressing like what that unmet need is or the trigger that’s being like, Triggered by, uh, that that causes that emotion. So for example, instead of saying like, you’re so mean, you did blah, blah, blah, it would be like, I feel really sad because like the way that you expressed X, Y, Z reminded me of this dynamic with my mother or like, whatever, whatever the trigger is.
Well, I mean, I’m very self-aware now. This is all the like individual therapy I’ve done. So I’m like, this is literally triggering because my dad used to do this or like whatever. Right. But anyway, so like starting with that, which is very vulnerable because you’re essentially like kind of olive branching of like, this is like what I’m scared of and I’m offering it to you on a plate, and what I need from you is to like meet me halfway with the same type of approach where you’re not there to like cast stones at me, but you, number one, curious about like why I’m feeling that way and trying to like understand me.
And number two, like you will reciprocate with a similar manner of like how you felt in the conflict when neither of us wants to make each other sad or like angry or whatever. . So like what can we better understand about each other to like make those bad feelings go away easier sometimes not worked that well yet in like practice, but something I really like that she has told us many times now is like you move through stages.
So she is like most people in relationships and regarding. Lack awareness, of what’s happening. Oh my God. So with them, yeah. Yeah. And lack the skill to like move their way through the conflict. And so she’s like, you are now in the stage where you are self-aware of like what the fuck’s going on, of like what’s triggering you and like that you want to change that.
Like these are the things you said that you would try. But you’re unable to do that. So she was like, you’re in the self-aware, but like not skilled stage, which feels like a really hard stage to be in because you’re like, I can see what needs to get done, but I like can’t do it. We’re like, we can’t do it.
But she’s like, it just takes really practicing it over and over again for it to start moving into the self-aware and skilled box. But she’s like, there’s nothing you can do besides like, keep practicing and like keep making those like very incremental steps of progress towards trying to be a better person individually.
Cuz that’s actually something that she emphasizes a lot is that you can’t change the other person. The only person you can change is your. So it actually feels a lot more like individual therapy within the like couples therapy umbrella because she’s like, it’s all about like what is your goal of like what you want, what kind of person you want to be in this relationship because you, all you can really do is try to get yourself closer to that goal, and by doing that you will in time, The other person to also work on their path towards their goal of who they wanna be in the relationship.
But you literally cannot do anything to say like, you need to change. It’s like that won’t happen. You can’t make anyone do anything. You can only hold yourself accountable. Yeah. So, yeah,
[00:29:33] Jesse Lin: I really like that because again, it just, it’s the ownership of your emotions is you. So even though you are acknowledging.
What the other person did is what caused you to feel that emotion. You were saying like, this is all me, and it’s like, I need your help to help me through this because you’re my partner and I hope that you love me enough to do this for me kind of situation. And I, I, I really, I really like that. And I think that you made a good point at the end, which is, Couples counseling is not about fixing the other person in a lot of sense.
It’s not even really about fixing your relationship. Like a, a lot of the conversation that we’re having right now is not really individualistic. It’s almost just about like the experience of the couple. And so I think that one of the maybe tropes that’s incorrect that a lot of people think about is, oh, you’re like bringing the other person.
Because you’re mad at them and you’re gonna like fix some, and like that is not gonna happen 100%. No
[00:30:31] Angela Lin: way. Anyone who thinks like, if only a third person, were here to like hear how crazy you are so that I can have someone to like know . No. Wait. Okay. I wanna dig in a little bit more about what you said.
It’s not so much individualistic, it’s about the, the experience of the couple itself. Like, what do you mean
[00:30:50] Jesse Lin: by that? For me, it’s just, it’s not about necessarily changing. Your person. It was more about like experiencing the positive parts of our relationship more vividly than I had been. And using that kind of as you were saying, like your piggy bank, using those emotions to level set when you’re experiencing negative emotions as a way to not have.
Emotions kind of take you for a little bit of a more of a ride than, than they should. I was like kind of coming into it thinking that there would be like very specific things that would be asked of us to do, but it wasn’t really like that at all. It was more just about like thinking about and emoting about the relationship and really taking that almost as like a talisman or like a focus point when you’re having like negative moments.
Within
[00:31:46] Angela Lin: the relationship. So you’re in the process right now of finding a more. Continuous Absolutly
[00:31:53] Jesse Lin: resource.
[00:31:54] Angela Lin: Yes. So how are you finding, because I think that’s something that’s kind of like a black box a lot of times with therapy. Yeah. Is like, how do you find these people?
[00:32:02] Jesse Lin: So my number one advice, first advice to everybody listening, don’t talk to your insurer.
They know jack shit about anything. Like I literally, when I was doing individual therapy, I went on the insurer portal to find people in network. About 80% of the people I contacted were not in network, and the other 20% didn’t respond. And then I asked the health insurance person to help me with it because they have like resource teams that will like supposedly like hook you up and they’re like, oh, these are the people you should talk to.
I’m like, Nope, they’re not in the portal no more. And they’re like, oh huh. And I’m like, cool. Thank you very much for nothing. So don’t talk to your insurance people. They know shit about nothing. Um, referrals, honestly. Referrals. Like ask your friends, ask your network. Like post it where you feel comfortable.
That’s where I landed, like the therapist that I work with now. I landed from a referral from a friend who was already working with uh, him and he was like, this therapist is amazing. And another one of our friends was also working with him, and he’s A L C S W, so he’s also like in the biz, so to speak. So I was like, okay.
Like if he thinks he’s also good, then like this is a good good. For the couple’s therapist situation. I tried to get a referral, but my therapist was like, yeah, I don’t really know anyone doing that practicing in New York State. So it’s a little bit challenging as well. So I try to do the whole like network thing.
But where I landed currently is there are like a few aggregation sites that I feel like are a little bit more legit than like, psychology Today or like maybe Zoc. It’s called with Alma and it’s, it’s kinda a portal site for a bunch of different doctors. I think the information is like a lot more accurate.
Like people in network and outta network. Like I would look at the provider and then I would actually go to their site and the information on the site actually matched what was on the portal. Cuz like a lot of times, for example, on Psychology Today you’ll see like a listing for the provider and it’ll be like in-network, everything, all the insurance, and then you’ll go to the website and they’ll be like, everything’s out of network.
We actually meant like, oh, we just like take all the insurances out of network. Which is, if you’ve ever done that, it’s very, very different. You put all the money up front. Yeah. And then your insurance pays you back, which is cuckoo crazy. So a lot of the ones that I looked at, I actually bounced their site to see like what the official like coverage was and mostly matched.
Um, still looking, but, um, hopeful that that resource will work. And similar
[00:34:24] Angela Lin: to your individual therapist, are you applying specific like filters of the type of person that you’re looking for? Cuz I know you cycled through a couple
[00:34:33] Jesse Lin: folks for your interview. Little guy. Yeah. I think that’s such an important thing because, Therapy is like, at least for me, 80% of it is the relationship that you have with your therapist.
Because if you don’t feel comfortable with the person, you’re never gonna get really vulnerable with them, and they also will not get real with you in in the way that you might need it. So for me, as with my individual therapist, I was like, I need somebody who is in the Rainbow Mafia. Like, I just don’t think that it, it just was really hard to explain certain aspects of our relationship and relationship challenges to someone who is.
Not L G B T and specifically, like also kind of looking for a gay man because same kind of situation, like within that microcosm, there is like also another very specific experience that it just removes some of the friction of the conversation where you don’t have to like set such a huge context up before your therapist is like, oh, I get what’s happening.
And even then sometimes when you do that, they’re like, I, I like, you’re like I, you don’t get it. Having. That same kind of identity reflected back at you makes you feel comfortable that the person you’re talking to really understands what you’re talking about, like really understands your challenges. And so like, those were the things that were important to me.
Well, what about you? I mean, you, you found this through your, your Lady, but was there any other considerations you had when you were looking
[00:35:56] Angela Lin: at it? Honestly, I felt a little. I didn’t have that many resources to lean on because I trusted my therapist the most from like a referral standpoint. And this was like the best, she had
It was like this institute that not, not even like a specific person. She was like, I know people who, I think she said either like, run the institute or like work very closely with the institute or whatever. So she could vouch for the integrity of the institute at large, but she didn’t have like a specific person.
And so I was like, good enough, good enough. And then the woman that we ended up being matched with in South Africa, um, again, it was like, I didn’t really have that, like that many choices. So like you mentioned, there was an intake form, right? And so I had kind of like a double intake form situation. So for a couple’s institute, they match you.
with somebody based on your intake form. So it was like largely describe like your situation. Like what are the things you’re trying to work on? What are like important things to you that need to, you know, exist within a therapist, blah, blah, blah. And time zone honestly was like our biggest restriction because nomad life.
So it was honestly, it was kind of like whatever we can get. So like. , they gave us the match. I honestly was like, do you have other options? Just so I know like , that I have multiple options. And she was like, honestly, you need to just, I, I couldn’t really tell if she was saying like, you don’t have other options, or I think she might have also been saying like, we don’t like to give like mul, like this is the best person.
Mm, that we genuinely think is going to be, you know, the best match based on your requirements. So I think it was a little bit of both, where it was like they think it’s the best person and also it was just like your time zones fucking it up anyway. Honestly, like I said in the beginning, I was like, is this the right person?
But I think after maybe three sessions, then she like knew us enough and like, Bringing a lot more value to the table where she like knew enough about us to reflect back what she was observing. And so it started becoming more personal. And then at that point I was like, okay. And she like, every time she was just such a like warm person.
So like every time she really like reinforces how much she cares about us and like how much she admires us and like can like see the potential for us to get past all this. So we’ve grown to really like her. But I will say there’s a kind of fine line between like I’d say writing someone off a writeup way versus seeing if there is a way for you to kind of like readjust or reframe for it to work well together.
But of course, like I said, we didn’t have that many options, so it was kind of like, I need to make this work. And then we lucked out that it did work once we got through some bumps. I hear you about like, you know, sometimes you just feel like there’s no way we’re gonna click, but other times, especially if you’re strapped for options, like you might be able to make it work if you give it a little bit more of a shot.
[00:38:59] Jesse Lin: I don’t know. Yeah, I agree. I, I think the feedback piece is, is really important and it’s, I think something that you learn through working with therapists is that like your therapist is not a doctor, they’re not always right, and you can be. I don’t think you’re right. . I don’t think you’re reflecting like what I’m saying and that’s totally cool.
Like they might misunderstand sometimes they
[00:39:19] Angela Lin: actually ask you explicitly, often too, is like, yeah, is this right? Oh, this is, yeah, exactly. They don’t know you. Yeah. Correct them. Yeah. And then they’ll adjust.
[00:39:28] Jesse Lin: Yeah. So how frequently do you see her now? So
[00:39:32] Angela Lin: it’s actually pretty interesting because when we first met her, she was,
I have like a very finite timeline that I see working with you guys, which I actually made it more approachable, I think, where she was like, between eight to 10 weeks you will start seeing results, and so I only think you guys should commit to like eight to 10 sessions essentially, but like once a week.
When we were doing this, so we’re doing once a week for like eight to 10 weeks or whatever. But then it was like by the end of it, she was like, you know, we are at like essentially the like timeline that I said I had asked you to commit to, but I feel like there’s still more I can teach you and like. I feel like you guys are getting stuff out of this, so like, would you want to extend it but like loosen up the frequency.
So we are like officially past the like, you know, the times she initially pitched us of like, this is like the core shit I need to teach you. And so we had been. For the last like month or two, been on a every two week schedule with her. And now literally as of like, we just had one today, but we just decided that we’re gonna do like every three weeks and then wean off to every four weeks and then just like wean off eventually.
Because her main goal is to like teach us these frameworks and like make sure we’re actually doing them because we know that they’ll work if we actually do them. So there isn’t that much. That she can provide for us because her main role is not like an individual therapist where it’s all just like, just what is, what’s going on?
I’m like, just tell me and I’m just gonna like ask you questions. That’s not her main goal, so she actually wants to like we us off and not need her eventually. But she always says this, she’s like, I can’t wait to see you guys in five years and see how far you’ve come. Like, that’s
[00:41:20] Jesse Lin: her. Oh, it’s cute. Well, this has been a great episode.
Would we like to move on to the Fortune cookie closing segment years, because we always like to end on a sweet treat. I think after this conversation, y’all listeners can feel where we’re landing, but we wanted to have a last question in each other as to whether or not we think that couples counseling or couples therapy is useful, and whether or not everyone.
I think it’s useful, obviously, because I’m seeking it out, but you know, I started at top episode and I was like, you don’t do it unless you have a problem. I still kind of feel that way because I feel like if you’re in a good spot with your relationship, And things are being communicated clearly, and you don’t feel like you have any troubles.
I don’t think you necessarily need to go to a couple’s therapist, but I do feel like if you’re starting to feel like there are certain challenges in your relationship and you don’t know how to fix them or you feel like they aren’t being addressed, then I think it’s a good time to seek outside help, to really make you feel like there’s something changing about your relationship.
I improving and trans.
[00:42:29] Angela Lin: Yeah, that’s basically exactly my thought as well. I don’t think there’s a one size fits all. So I also agree with almost anything in life that not everyone needs everything. It’s similar to, it is such a different topic, but like it’s similar to when everyone asks me like, should I get my mba?
And I’m like, I don’t know. Even though I have my mba, it’s not like, I’m like, yeah, get it cuz I got it. You know? It’s. I don’t know. Depends on why you’re getting it and whatever. Anyways, so for this for sure, same feeling of like, I think it can benefit a lot of people, but I really don’t think you should just like randomly get into it for, you know, without like thinking about why you need it.
I also think there is a certain time-based element to it as well of like, if you’re really early in your relationship, it might not be the best time to like seek out couples counseling anyway because you’re probably still like learning. too much about each other. Like that’s the focal point before you like know that there’s such just like patterns and patterns and you’re, yeah.
You know, you’re in it for the long haul. Mm-hmm. and you need to like go past these things. I think that’s really the point in which you would seek something like this out and similar to you, I also feel like if people are genuinely able to, but I don’t think many people are, if people are genuinely able to like work through conflict.
Because honestly that’s like the main reason why like couples counseling exists is to like work through conflict. If you’re able to speak transparently, respectfully, Empathetically with each other through conflict and express your needs and like try to make each other both feel good at the end and be kind of like in it together.
When it comes to conflict, you don’t need couples counseling, but like most people aren’t able to do that because we are all flawed people and we. Number one priority is ourselves usually. So you, it’s naturals to go into like self defensive things and to assume the worst of somebody else, even someone you love.
So it’s just like, yeah, if you’re like super self-aware and you’re super able to communicate and your partner’s equally self-aware and equally able to do all these things, you don’t need couples counseling. But if you’re not, You might want to consider it at some point if you can and you want to, right?
I I, it’s similar to the individual therapy in my head of just like if you see the benefit to it and you can like, number one, afford it, and also in this case your partner is like on the same page about seeing the value of doing something like this. What? What do you have to lose? Like, I don’t know.
[00:45:03] Jesse Lin: Yeah.
Well, listeners, we hope you enjoyed this conversation about couples therapy, couples counseling. We would love to hear from you. If any of you are currently thinking about interested in exploring couples therapy or couples counseling. Let us know what your experience have been, what your thoughts are, and feel free to shout that out in the socials
[00:45:25] Angela Lin: and come back next week for the final episode of.
Batch. We don’t do seasons anymore of this batch of episodes before we take a break for the holidays.