Jesse Lin 0:20
This week, we’re going to talk about an interesting social phenomenon coming out of China, as reported by a few news outlets, some Western, some Eastern called the tang ping, or live flat movement. And in essence, this movement is kind of a counter rebellion to the idea that people have to be working really, really long work hours in China. I’m not sure if all of you are aware. But obviously, like, you’ve had all of your stuff made in China for years and years and years, and probably didn’t really think about it, but their work hours are not really great. And also, this movement is also kind of in context of workers in even the high tech industry. So there were some was it Jack Ma? Jack Ma was like, Yes, I’m all for this 996 work schedule, which basically means you work from 9am to 9pm, six days a week. So the reporting on this is mostly just about how many people are have tried, they’ve tried to conform into this structure. They’re trying to find fulfillment in this idea that’s being pushed of what success looks like. And they’re kind of just like giving up after realizing they’re not finding much happiness following this kind of schedule.
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Angela Lin 1:40
How did you first hear about it? Was that through one of the articles?
Jesse Lin 1:43
I think it was a New York Times article. So the funny thing is that like, I really don’t use Facebook anymore. But the random times that I do scroll through the timeline, sometimes I always, it’s mostly like news stories that stopped me. And usually, because I like the Times, so the Times shows up. And I think I found it through just randomly being on Facebook. And I saw it and I was like, oh, this is so interesting, because it’s not the exact experience we have here. But it’s akin to in my own thinking about like having a more realistic or relaxed like work life balance and actually finding a balance between it so then I opened it up and read it just to see like, what it was like. And I found a whole nother thing, which is slightly different. But like I said, like kind of resonated with me in terms of like, my own pursuit of like trying to find this balance. You?
Angela Lin 2:34
Um, Funny enough, I actually heard it from my dad. I think it came about because in conversation because Ramon was talking about his startup, and obviously he has a lot of ambitions. So my dad was kind of reacting to like the opposite of that, which is he was like, well, in China, there’s a funny thing going on right now, where young people are like, refusing to do work at all. Like, what the hell are you talking? Because like, yeah, they literally want to Lie down, lie flat. I’m not sure what you mean. But yeah, he was saying that most of it is in direct contrast to this, like extreme work, commitment, and long hours and work stress. But also, it’s a rejection of everything that young people in China are sold to believe is what success means. So like getting married, having kids buying property and like buying into consumerism in general. So one of the main slogans or mantras around this movement is to kind of reject all those things as well. Not just the work piece. So it’s really just like a getting by kind of movement, which is super interesting. But yeah, that’s how I heard about I was just my dad, and I was like, Oh, that’s a weird.
Jesse Lin 3:56
Was he like you should do it?
Angela Lin 3:58
Of course not. He was laughing at it. And he was, he was saying, actually, my cousin from one of his nephews is kind of like this. And it’s funny, because my cousin’s in Taiwan not in China, but I guess it’s just like, like you said that it partially resonated with you. Um, I think it’s generally like young people. There’s like commonality across countries as well. But he was saying that my cousin is like, in some company in Taiwan, and they wanted to promote him to VP. And he was like, oh, no, I don’t want that. Like, I don’t want more responsibility. I’m good. He rejected the promotion.
Jesse Lin 4:38
Wow.
Angela Lin 4:39
Which is really funny. Yeah. Because I feel like you and I have always just been like vying for the next promotion. Yeah.
Jesse Lin 4:46
You know, it is really interesting because like that is that’s kind of what resonated with me is it’s like this backlash against like, all the things you were told were true about your life and like what you want and of course, like, we’ve just through multiple episodes, like there are many facets of my life that I feel that to be true where I was pursuing, maybe something that was not true to what I necessarily wanted. Because instead of thinking about that I just took what people were saying about these are the these are the things you should want in life and try to, like, absorb that and set those as my goal and then like, the further along you get with it, the less it means anything to you, because you start to realize that it’s like, a false goal. And then, of course, there’s like this, I had a panic because I was like, oh, crap, like, I’m so far along on this, like, false, false way now that I’m like, oh, no, what, what do I do? And I guess, like, I can see there’s a, there’s the kind of like, maybe like three different ways, at least I can see like, you can try to like force it, like continue to just pretend you can try to like adapt, you can try to like merge it into something you want. Or you can just do this and you just be like, fuck it like, I’m out.
Angela Lin 5:58
Yeah, it’s funny that there are a lot of parts of this that resonate with us. And I’m sure what a lot of young people like is that across different countries, and I’m sure that is why you were targeted with this news article on Facebook as well. And I think that leads us into part of what we wanted to talk about was kind of like, speculation on our part about whether or not this movement is really that representative of what’s happening in China, or if it’s like, you know, outsiders reporting about some phenomenon that isn’t necessarily as big of a thing as it is because it kind of reminds them of things in our Western culture that we’re, you know, feeling ourselves. So, I think it’s a little bit of both. Like, I think one thing that’s kind of, like, difficult to know, unless you’re there in the country itself is the scope of something. So like, I read a lot of these articles. And it is funny, because it’s like, like you said, there are some Eastern outlets was a lot of like, New York Times, Washington Post, like NPR, like, how do they get their information, but the articles like they cite how big the movement is by talking about, like, oh, there’s this like, WeChat group that grew to like, hundreds of thousands of people and like, that sounds like a lot of people but China’s a frickin huge country
Jesse Lin 7:37
1 billion something.
Angela Lin 7:38
Yeah, it’s not actually that big of a movement and from like, a sheer numbers standpoint, but it doesn’t mean just an exist. So I feel like both are true. Like it exists, and people buy into it. But I think our Western media is probably like blowing this shit up. Because they’re like, hey, I relate, or make this sound like it’s a bigger thing.
Jesse Lin 8:00
I definitely agree with you. And although we could not get a guest, like I did reach out to one of my, one of my former roommates from college, and he runs like, online magazine in Taiwan, and I asked him like, hey, is this like, a legitimate thing? And he’s like, not really, like, you know, every few years, like stuff like this bubbles up, where they have articles about, like, what the youth of today are doing. And it’s like, interesting, and obviously, like, they talk to somebody and they did some research to like, to your point, like, part of it is true, but how prevalent it is, I think it’s less so. And I also feel like the reason why Western media likes to grapple onto that stuff like this is like, it’s very, I guess, like, very unexpected from the whole stereotype of like, Asians being like, communal, and like one mind, like one effort kind of situation to see something coming out of that. And being like, no, like, that’s not, that’s not what we want. Like, that’s not what we subscribe to. And in particularly China, which has this very, like monolithic follow the sure government propaganda situation, I think it’s unusual for maybe it’s like this idea that it’s so problematic that people are willing to expose themselves in the media to talk about this, like movement, stuff like that.
Angela Lin 9:16
Yeah, actually, that reminds me of a piece that I wanted to bring up, which is like, what else this is a reaction to, because the idea of like, not wanting to struggle anymore in life and kind of like, you know, enjoying life for what it is, is also in direct contrast to a couple of speeches, or probably just like the general themes that Xi Jinping often comes out with, which is like a couple of years ago, he really honed in on this the Chinese dream, the concept of the Chinese dream, and it’s like loosely defined but obviously is like paralleling the American dream, right. And he has like big ambitions for obviously making China like even even stronger of a world power than an already is. And in one of his famous speeches, he apparently called on largely the young people of China to like, continue struggling, because that’s the only way that we’re going to make China like the next, bring it to the next level. And I think he meant it to be right like inspirational and a, you know, I read a little bit about how it was kind of echoing back to Mao times right of like the heyday of Communist Party of like, everyone, quote, unquote, struggling for the greater good to bring like everybody up. So he was trying to call on that. But the irony is that, I guess with like, the 996 culture, the fact that it exists, and people hate it and are some people are committing suicide, like real, you know, consequences are coming from the extreme work culture that’s getting China forward. I think that’s a big part of what like, caused this movement to crop up as well as just like people are kind of like, but why do I need to struggle? Like, why do I need to buy in on this idea of like, everyone’s suffering to bring the quote unquote, you know, that nation forward?
Jesse Lin 11:18
Yeah. Why do I need to suffer?
Why does it seem like so many articles are interested in understanding what young people are doing? Like, what are millennials like? What are Gen Z? Like, I mean, you have this which is like younger people doing this, like lie flat thing. And I’ve always been really curious, because I’m like, who’s writing this shit? Like it doesn’t like, and then it’s always like, contradictory. So it’s like Millennials are ruining this industry, Millennials are like buying. So I just feel like that is telling of the kind of microscope that people of our age and younger are under from such an early age. And you know, you and I can remember a time when we were growing up where there weren’t phones, you hadn’t cameras everywhere, like you had some kind of like space to breathe from the pressures of society because it wasn’t so immediate, like you couldn’t just flip your phone and see a beautiful girl in a bikini on a beach, like anytime you wanted. And you certainly couldn’t get like 5 million of the same girl. Yeah, on Instagram, because there are now. And I feel like being in the internet age has made those pressures, so much more present in your life. And you feel like, I don’t need to do this thing that you’re telling me because I can see for myself I have there’s so many different things I could be doing. I could be an influencer, I could be a basketball player. I could be whatever, whatever, whatever. And so I think yeah, we are we’re I don’t think it’s that they’re they’re different is that we’re really different because of microscope that they see us under and that we put ourselves under.
Angela Lin 14:04
I agree with you. I think there’s a darker aspect of the social media side, though, like yes, it does open your eyes to all the possibilities that you have. But I think it’s actually one of the reasons something like the lie flat movement could even become a thing is with social media and the accessibility you have to see on a daily basis every hour every minute, like the successes of other people or the quote unquote, successes, right? Because people always only post the best things happening in their lives and not the worst things. It makes you feel like you’re constantly kind of behind or like losing and you’re in a competition with like everyone else on the internet. So then the lie flat movement is kind of like, well, I’m not going to ever win this competition so why should I even try? So I think that’s definitely like a reaction on the negative side for growing up in the, you know, technology age. And then the other piece is, it is funny because you talked about like, every everyone is obsessed with like the younger generation in the media. And I recently saw something. And I don’t know which publication was, but there was a graph that showed kind of like the trend in must have been like cross decades, but like recent 50 years, or whatever, the trend in the accumulation of wealth across the different generations. And basically like, as time goes on, the boomers are able like own everything, and us millennials and Gen Z own nothing like it’s like, like curve was like super up top of the graph or like what boomers own like proper – all the property right is like by them. And then like all of us are like down here owning nothing, just like renting in debt forever. And so I’m also just echoing all the millennial gripes forever. But it’s kind of like, how could we ever live up to the same kinds of like, dreams, aspirations, and even achievements of older generations sometimes, like things like property ownership, when our generations are kind of like, set up to fail in a lot of ways, you know?
Jesse Lin 16:15
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. And I think that can lead to why people want to bail out because they’re like, I don’t want to feed myself the lie every day that I’m going to make it to this like golden place. And like, what’s worse is not even a lie that everybody wants, like, not everybody wants to own a home. Not everybody wants to have a family. So I think these are like, huge pressures that we’re under. And it’s funny, because I feel like when people are like, what’s wrong with millennials? And what’s wrong with Gen Z, I’m like, this article is what’s wrong. There’s so much hype about us that it’s impossible. Like, even when you know, it’s not true, it’s impossible to escape it. Because then like, your grandmother might think it’s true. Your mom, might think it’s true, like other people in society that have weight, think it’s true. And that in itself can make things true sometimes. So I can definitely see why people just want to be like, byeee.
Angela Lin 17:07
Yeah, the way you’re talking about it, I have that song, that Mariah Carey song, why are you so obsessed with me?
Jesse Lin 17:16
It’s true, it’s true!
Angela Lin 17:18
It is, it’s kind of true. And I mean, not to just slam on an entire generation and older, but I’m kinda like, they’re talking about us all the time, because they have nothing else going on. Like, we’re the ones driving innovation and like things forward, right? Like, even all the grunt work that keeps the machine of America and every other country moving is the young people. It’s not like some boomers, like, you know, typing away all their fucking administrative stuff that’s keeping all these tech companies alive. So it’s like, they’re just observers, they get to be the observers, because they’ve like, lived their youth. So now they just get to complain about, like, the generation that’s keeping society afloat right now.
Jesse Lin 18:01
And, you know, like I said, it’s like, a we are different, like, millennials and younger, we’re different. And I think there are so much content on there because like genuinely I think older Americans don’t understand. Don’t they don’t understand the space that we live in. And I can say that pretty confidently because I don’t understand the space to Gen Z. Like, I don’t know, like, what think like, what internet, you know, like, Reddit, is internet for me, but like Gen Z person be like, what the fuck is Reddit? So like, it’s already like, very different. But the thing is that, like, I know that I don’t know enough about Gen Z to not say anything about it, because like, I don’t really know anyone Gen Z, I don’t really know what their habits are, like, what they like to do. And obviously, we can’t like generalize, but like, I don’t know enough of them to be like, oh, they’re genuinely like interested in these kind of things. But I don’t know if the older generations know enough not to make that assumption.
Angela Lin 18:56
I also obviously I don’t have like hordes of Gen Z friends or anything but I do. I feel like all the gens are like weirdly defined right? Like I remember millennial the year you were born kept shifting every year for what the definition of millennial was, but I have friends that I would argue are Gen Z, even if like sometimes the the year they were born, it’s like doesn’t make the cut cut off sometimes. I don’t know. I feel like young people get a bad rap a lot because of like growing up in the tech age and like social media, because there’s a lot of like, dark side to social media in a lot of ways but well, okay, I’m trying to connect those back to lie flat and like a totally opposite way, which is kind of like alright, if you reject the traditional idea of success, which is like joining a big company and like moving up the ladder and like just vying for the next promotion, right? Like if you reject that, you’re also opening yourself up to coming up with different ways to like live your life, and it could be the lie flat movement where you’re just like, I just want to earn enough money to like, live and be comfortable. Or you could come up with like totally new ways to start your own business. I think like the idea of starting your own business has changed a lot. Like, in the past, it sounded like a much bigger thing where it’s like, like, when my dad thinks about starting a business, he’s like, oh, you have to like buy a factory and like you there’s like capex, and you have to like borrow money and like all this shit. And I’m like, do you know how many like Etsy shops and like, Instagram built shops there are from Gen Z, that are just, they’re just like, artists on the side, right? Like, they’re just like, really talented people in like digital spaces, and they just for shits and giggles, open an Etsy shop to like, sell some stickers or whatever. And like, they’re making, you know, enough money to sustain a real life on that totally digitally native, like business. And I think that’s incredible. Like, it’s a weird thing for older generations, especially to grasp which is like, I don’t understand how do you have like a fully what do you mean, you don’t like own anything to like, make things that people buy, you know, but it’s true. And like, it makes me jealous. And like very impressed when I see a lot of these artists are like that. They’re all these people opening up like random, you know, fashion lines or whatever. But they’re like, 19 or, you know, like so young. And I’m like, wow, I don’t know what I was doing at 19, but I certainly wasn’t doing this for like, wow, there’s a lot of like, I think there’s a lot of entrepreneurial spirit in the Gen Z range of folks. And I’m, I love seeing, like totally untraditional way that they’re thinking about like, carrying themselves in society and making money in like untraditional ways.
Jesse Lin 21:48
I like what you said about how it leaves room for people to discover, like different ways to live their life, because I do feel like the things that were offered to us as like, important, there were only a few and they took up a lot of space, you know, like job, family, the house thing like retirement like those are like very few things. And I think the point I felt like from there was like you diversify your happiness. So you’re not all not all your eggs are in this giant basket about a house or giant basket about your work. But you have different areas where you want to spend time to nurture that happiness. And that’s okay, that’s totally cool. And honestly, as I’ve gotten older, that’s kind of like where I’ve been trying to move myself to like spend less of my energy trying to develop happiness in this one thing and try to find like different things that interest me that I can build happiness in.
Angela Lin 22:41
Do you feel like our parents raised us to think those things would bring us happiness, though, because the big buckets you mentioned, like work, family, house, those kinds of things. I don’t think they ever presented those things to me as like that will bring you happiness, I think they were just like, you need these things to be stable. Like I think it was largely stability driven.
Jesse Lin 23:04
I think they do help build some kind of baseline happiness. I mean, if you’re like dirt poor, like, I’m sure some people can be happy. Like, if you’re a very like, free willed, nature hippie person that just likes being out in, you know, camping and shit like that, like, you might be happy. But like most people need some baseline amounts of comfort in order to sustain some level of happiness. And so I always equated it, and maybe it’s different for you, I always equated to some level of happiness, because they would always be, I don’t know, I just saw like, they would be concerned about like, I took what they were showing me in terms of their worry about like money and like position in society and like education, all that an inverted basically with the expectation. So I was like, if you’re worried about these things, then the opposite of those things must bring you happiness, because it removes the worry, in a sense. So that was kind of my my feeling about those things.
Angela Lin 23:57
Yeah, I can see that. For me. I see it slightly differently. I think that it’s connected though. But Maslow – is that the pyramid of whatever the like needs that you like..?
Jesse Lin 24:09
Maslow, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs?
Angela Lin 24:11
Yes. And the bottom is like the necessities right, like the things that keep you alive and like not in poverty, essentially. I think the distinction with our parents generation, especially as immigrants coming from poor backgrounds versus like us living in you know, pretty well off and like at the tech age, like not worried about the same things. We’re kind of like moving up in the pyramid hierarchy of like needs here where like, our parents were obsessed with the things that the bottom of that pyramid because it’s like, I didn’t always have food growing up. I didn’t always have like, stable house or a nice house or like those kinds of things. And so the those are like the most important in their heads, because they’re like, if you don’t have those things, like, that’s the only thing you you’re going to be able to like, think about. So they’re so focused on that, that they haven’t focused ever on kind of like, what does it mean to be happy?
Jesse Lin 25:15
Self actualization.
Angela Lin 25:16
Yeah. And I think our generation is obsessed with that, right? Our generation and Gen Z, the idea of like, yeah, like finding happiness, self worth, and like, yeah, and these are things that are just kind of like foreign for our parents, I think. And I also think, talking back to our original topic, the lie flat movement, right? It’s like, I could see this being kind of like, really difficult for the older generation, like, Xi Jinping’s generation to understand why young people are trying to like, do this complete rejection of the way China’s always run. Because it’s our generation and younger, that’s thinking about things like mental health, and like self worth, and like finding things that make you happy outside of a career. And those aren’t things that the older generations ever have to think about, especially in in the Motherland, or it’s like, always been kind of that way of like you derive happiness from success and success comes from career, you know?
Jesse Lin 26:18
Yeah, yeah, I think it does make sense. Like, you know, people of Xi Jinping’s age, they might be like, why are you guys thinking about like, we have a very stable environment, like, obviously, China has transformed tremendously in the last, you know, 50 years. But I think it’s the thing is that self actualization is inherently an individualistic pursuit. So it’s gonna be in, you know, a little bit butting heads always with the idea of like group success, and like, where China’s going next. And like, we want to support that. And it’s hard to do that when you can’t support yourself. And oh, my God, boom, boom, boom, light bulb alert. Wait, no, this might be too much of a stretch. But it was Confucius that said, you had to fix yourself, and then your family, and then you, your city, and then your country. So this movement…
Angela Lin 27:06
Ohh he did say something like that.
Jesse Lin 27:08
Right? Right?
Angela Lin 27:10
So the father of the lie flat movement…
Jesse Lin 27:13
That’s right, is Confucius!
Angela Lin 27:15
You heard it here first.
Jesse Lin 27:16
Self actualization. Deep analysis for you folks!
Angela Lin 27:23
Okay, well, on that note, I think we kind of land slided into what was supposed to be our fortune cookie. Maybe we kind of like ride that tailwind and go into like what we each feel like is our definition of a happy or successful life.
Jesse Lin 28:23
Wow, what did very deep and difficult to answer.
Angela Lin 28:26
And that we didn’t prepare for either, yeah, I know.
Jesse Lin 28:32
Huh? Well, you know, I really liked after talking to Sandeepa about how she described this like place of equilibrium, where happy things make you, you know huh, you enjoy them. But you come back to the state and negative things also are kind of just, you know, another wave in the ocean. And I think for me, happiness is getting to that place to try to achieve that equilibrium. Because each of those things are like highs just on like opposites, right, like, so you’re good things are good, high, negative, things are bad high. And you want to like buffer yourself from those things, because they can really drag you like in the opposite way, unexpectedly. So good things can actually bring you down, like you might, you know, get promoted, or you might have a good thing. And then if you place too much value in that, you might start to think, hey, is this like a really hollow pursuit? Like is this really all I have? And so for me, my experience with my own emotions and like managing my own stress, like I found this whole idea of equilibrium, to be very much where the happiness lies where you can feel so where you can like bring yourself back to a place of evenness so that you aren’t being constantly pulled around by the waves of your life.
Angela Lin 29:50
No I like that I think I also am searching for equilibrium for from a different sense. My therapist actually gave me this homework a long time ago and it’s like on my to do list that I’ve given partial thought to. She was like in your life, how would you define your personal metrics of success? I’m like, What? That seems really hard. But I was thinking about it further but I still have to refine it. But the idea of equilibrium resonates with me but from like a different angle. So when I was thinking about what, what kind of personal metrics of success would I have, it’s kind of like, how about I balance my life in terms of the things that are important to me. So I think for me, happiness is being able to give attention to each of the areas of my life that are important to me. So definitely my relationship. Relationships, I guess so like with Ramon, family, friends, but also physical well being. I think a lot of times I like run myself ragged, especially with work, not eating well, or not working out, or just being outside kind of like not prioritizing those things, not prioritizing my mental well being with just like disconnecting sometimes, or at best doing things like yoga or meditating or things like that. And then from like, a work standpoint, because I’m trying to kind of redefine what I think of as work. I think it’s more just like, making sure I’m carving out time working on things that actually bring me feelings of like, what I’m doing matters. Yeah, it was worth it makes a difference. It is meaningful in some way. Because I think a lot of times what makes me upset with the idea of work is when I spend a lot of time doing things that like ultimately don’t really matter. So anyways, for me, I think the equilibrium I’m seeking is like always depositing a little bit of like investment in each of those areas that are important in my life. So I’m not totally neglecting any of them. Because I think when I’m when I’m out of whack is because I’m like totally neglecting one or more of those aspects.
Jesse Lin 32:18
That totally makes sense. Yeah, I guess we’re at the end of the episode, listeners, if you have any feedback, if you want to tell us your own experience with the lie flat movement, if you do or you just want to let us know your own rebellion or not rebellion against the current dream of America, please write us in at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com, the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. And if you do have a story, we’re more than happy to feature it in one of our upcoming listener submitted story episodes.
Angela Lin 32:48
And especially if you are based in the motherland any Motherland of any sort. And you are you have more first hand knowledge especially about this movement or something similar. We definitely are interested in that because we are coming from this more from a Western perspective. So do write us it and because we are interested, and come back next week because it will be our final episode of this season.