Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI
[00:00:00] Angela: Hey everyone. I’m Angela Lin
[00:00:02] Jesse: and I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to, uh, another riveting episode of, but where are you really? This week, we’re talking about a topic that’s semi-related to the names episode. If you guys haven’t had a chance to take a listen to that, it would be a good precursor episode, but we’re talking about further.
[00:00:25] Jesse: Fortunes and how fortunes are calculated and by whom, um, in Taiwanese society. And this is a very timely topic because I’m not sure if I told you yet, but I got my first speeding ticket. So it would’ve been really nice if I had consulted someone and they told me, but it was an expensive ticket. yeah. Yeah,
[00:00:49] Angela: I’m not really sure that’s how fortune telling works.
[00:00:51] Angela: Jesse
[00:00:52] Jesse: you’re you’re right. So it, so like there are, I think there are a lot of differences between Eastern and Western fortune telling the funny thing is I actually don’t feel like I know a whole lot about Western fortune telling outside of like taro cards. So it’s hard for me to make a compare and contrast, but just like really top level based off of my general perceptions and.
[00:01:18] Jesse: Anecdotal information. This is not empirical. I mean, it’s fortune telling, so it’s not empirical at all, but it’s not my empirical studied understanding of like the long history of terror or other like fortune telling methods. But I feel like in talking to my parents, they were very much, they were very much saying like, you go to a fortune teller to kind of get like a probability.
[00:01:43] Jesse: Something that will happen. But even when they were talking about it, my mom was like, oh yeah, I went to, I went to one with somebody once not for herself. And she was like, I didn’t like the fortune. Like, I didn’t think it was real. And I was like, okay. So like it’s probabilistic. And also like, as the. As the person seeking the advice from the fortune teller, you also don’t have to take it, which I guess is kind of true if you go to like a taro car reading.
[00:02:13] Jesse: But I feel like a lot of the, I don’t know, I just feel like a lot of the Western stuff is like more like you just kind of go and you, you take the fortune as it is. I don’t know if you like backtalk the fortune teller or anything like that where you’re like, I don’t like this fortune or this fortune isn’t.
[00:02:31] Jesse: Um, and I also don’t know. I mean, you, you probably tell me if you know more about the historical backgrounds of, um, te and other fortune telling methods Western wise. But what my dad told me is like all the different fortune telling methods, um, come out of the ING, which is the eyeing for everyone else.
[00:02:55] Jesse: and he told me that there were okay of notes. He told me that there are basically like five different kinds. Topical fortune telling that comes out of that. So the first is this thing called San like mountain, and this is about like ying yang, fun Shu. So it’s like about how you arrange your living spaces as a live person and also about how you arrange.
[00:03:20] Jesse: The space for someone who’s passed away, because both of those things have some fortune effect on your current life and like your future life. There’s a thing called, um, E E no, sorry. E and that’s just like regular medicine, like eon doctor. There’s a thing called Ming, which is like, where we’re kind of talking about, like the shamings kind of stuff.
[00:03:44] Jesse: There’s a thing called poo. And he was explaining this as kind of. um, luck based, divination kind of. So you like throw a coin heads or tails, the pattern tells you something. And he also mentioned that this kind of divination can be done with animals. So like, he’s like some people have birds that will like pick the, the coins for you.
[00:04:06] Jesse: And the last thing is sh sh oh, sh. So like what your face looks like, and they take into consideration, like your eyes, nose, mouth, there are like five different ones. So it’s, I think that’s the eyes nose. Ears head, maybe like forehead. And those are like the five different, like topical areas that a person, uh, that, uh, someone who is skilled in a, uh, not Asian, fortunately Taiwanese fortune telling like traditional fortune telling would be able to use to assess like the probability of like luckiness or something.
[00:04:44] Angela: Did he tell you at all? Because, I mean, I think we’re jumping kind of between what our topics were supposed to be, but since you already brought it up, the aging is like a really foundational text to doism. Um, which is the religion that we grew up with. So did he explain why it’s like so integral in Daoism?
[00:05:09] Angela: Because I get like, very confused with that kind of stuff, because like, for example, I think semi recently I was telling you that I reread the ING of like, but in English, after I did psycho talks and I was like more open spiritually, um, and that text is when. Foundational text of Daoism. And I read that and that all made sense to me.
[00:05:34] Angela: Like it had nothing to do with like divination or like, you know what, I deem more superstitious stuff versus like eating, I bought it because it was like, I was like, oh, I really liked the ING. Maybe I actually would get into like the rest of doism if I had the English text and I tried to read it and I was very confusing.
[00:05:59] Angela: I stopped reading it, but I didn’t know at all that it was like, like a divination text. And I don’t understand why that it’s like foundational to doism as a.
[00:06:13] Jesse: um, well, I didn’t even know that, but I can conjecture to it because I think about like doism as a religion is this kind of like philosophy on how to live with yourself and to be one with nature, kind of like being, being part of nature and following like a natural path is like a very important part of.
[00:06:35] Jesse: I think as far as I understand from talking to my parents, the divination aspects, like the different elements that I just went through, they’re all very much about how to arrange your life, to live a natural life in a way where things flow smoothly and you feel more integrated kind of into your life.
[00:06:57] Jesse: So maybe for me just thinking about it that way, the connection is like the, the divination is almost. How to fulfill your destiny by being more integrated into nature. And so maybe that’s where they, where they connect a little bit. That, that, that, that, cuz I feel like with like, I don’t know, I like growing up thinking about fortune telling it’s like, you know, the whole like, you know, dumpy lady, crystal ball, like taro cards kind of thing, which is really there’s no, there’s no connection for me to anything.
[00:07:32] Jesse: It’s not like connected to nature. It’s just kind of like, oh my God. Like, they can somehow like, look at your destiny and your destiny is kind of this like amorphous thing that just like independently, but this is more like your destiny is tied with nature. And so like all of those, um, any recommendation, um, any advice would be connected with your kind of like natural path, if that
[00:07:56] Angela: makes.
[00:07:57] Angela: interesting. Um, yeah, I found similar stuff. I didn’t, uh, I didn’t get a chance to talk to my parents more deeply about it beyond the kind of like few times they’ve done it, but it seems like, yes, there are multiple methods. And then, um, but one of the like more common ones is, uh, called like bots, which is the, the one where you’re like, you tell them everything.
[00:08:24] Angela: Your birthdate, our like all the like information they need to understand kinda like where in the astrological grand scheme of the cosmos you were born and then thereby like what your destiny kind of is, um, ordained to be. And that is interesting to me because it’s like, um, I, I think of that. More like traditionally with a word of destiny, because it’s kind of like, you can’t change it.
[00:08:56] Angela: Or there are certain things that are kinda like set based on where you were, how you were birthed versus like you started all this conversation with a joke about like, you wish you had known you were gonna get a speeding ticket. Like, what are the, what were the other ones like, how did the other methods have to do with, I guess more just like.
[00:09:19] Angela: things that aren’t as important. Like, because for me, if you’re like factoring in like the stars and like where you fall and like the cos cosmological, or like, whatever the fuck timeline, I don’t think a speeding ticket or like little things like that. Are not necessarily like written in the stars in, in my opinion, as opposed to like, you know, sometimes they’re like, oh, you shouldn’t do this on like X, Y, Z day or whatever, because it’s bad luck.
[00:09:51] Angela: And like, that kind of stuff seems more trivial and like kind of like guessing in, in my
[00:10:00] Jesse: opinion than, yeah. Ordained. Yeah. I mean, no, you’re right. And that, and that actually is kind of. for, for me, that’s my, my. Originating viewpoint of fortune telling, right? It’s like you use it to try to suss out something very tactical.
[00:10:17] Jesse: At least for me, it’s like, oh, will I get a parking ticket? Like, will I get that job promotion? And when I was talking to my mom about it, she was like, People don’t use it for like trivial things. She was like, you are using it when you’re at a, like you’re at a crossroads in your life and you don’t know what to do.
[00:10:34] Jesse: And it’s like a monumental choice you have to make. And so you go to a fortune teller for them to like help you assess what those paths are. And yeah, I feel like a lot of the, a lot of the counting methods that they were describing to me, it’s more so about. Again, it’s like the likelihood that something will bring good fortune or whatever, like good vibes into your life.
[00:11:00] Jesse: And it has a lot to do with, um, the natural aspects of your destiny. So like, in the names episode, we talked about how like, names are picked because you know, they’re looking at your, whatever, your ti your birth time and date, and they’re determining like you have too much of a certain kind of element and they’re balancing that out.
[00:11:19] Jesse: And I feel like it’s very much the same way. Like they’re looking at your. The different probabilities of something happening. And then like seeing which thing is more connected with your natural path as oppos, as opposed to something that might be like a little bit forced and it’s not natural for you.
[00:11:35] Jesse: Mm-hmm yeah.
[00:11:38] Angela: How much do you believe this kind of stuff? Because I, um, I mean, I’ve never personally done it and then, but like the whole, like birth time date, those kinds of like predestined, um, characteristics that they can tell a lot of shit from reminds me. Uh, remember a long time ago we had Shani on and we talked about like that show, um, that Netflix show about Indian arranged marriages and on the show that for, or sorry, the matchmaker went to a fortune teller, um, for like several of the episodes where she bring like the candidates, the, the people that are like looking to be a match and, um, tell them all the information about like their date.
[00:12:28] Angela: Birth time and all that stuff. And without ever meeting the person, the fortune teller said like a lot of shit that was like very accurate where they’re like, oh, this person has like this type of personality. It means that they’re have like these types of challenges when it comes to relationships. And like I’ve.
[00:12:46] Angela: I can see that they’ve had many failed X, Y, Z, and then like, but like the forthcoming cycle, blah, blah, blah. You know, and it was kind of like crazy spot on without someone ever like meeting a person or, you know, even talking to them. So I feel like there’s like something to it. How much do you feel like is, you know, actually legit versus like, I don’t know.
[00:13:14] Jesse: Really good. I mean, I feel like we, we sit on opposite ends of the Wu spectrum. Not that we’re not that neither of us are on the Wu or not that I’m not on the Wu spectrum, but I’m on like the more skeptical side. Sure. Um, so when I was discussing with my parents, again, this is just my perspective from my conversation with them and their, what they remember from.
[00:13:35] Jesse: Whenever they left Taiwan and came that came over here, like the tradition may have changed or evolved or whatever. But my mom was telling me, cuz I was asking, you know, like where like who would be a fortune teller? Like how do you learn about it? And they were very, I don’t think they really knew cuz they’re like, oh yeah.
[00:13:51] Jesse: Like if you wanna learn it, you like, there’re places that teach it. And I’m like, okay, thank you. I know that you can do that’s called the internet, but but they were saying something like, you can, you can train in it, but then you have to practice. So there is an element where it’s like, you, you might have the foundational knowledge of like maybe how to read, um, the eating or like how to do cer do certain types of these divination, but your precision.
[00:14:20] Jesse: I guess in your divination really depends on your experience working with people. So for me, it’s kind of like, there is a skills part of it because obviously, like you do need to learn the tradition and like what certain things mean. But the other part of it is almost kind of like a mentalist thing where you’re, where you’re reading all these different aspects of the person that’s talking to you.
[00:14:41] Jesse: So like you’re coming to me. You’re you don’t have a smile on your face. You’re wearing a lot of makeup. Um, your hair is up, you’re in a fancy, like you’re reading these different things about the person coming to you and that’s factoring into your assessment of what their fortune can be. Yeah. And so I think almost like from the Western perspective, I think of it as a mentalist because it’s like a person who’s, they’re not divination, anything they’re like.
[00:15:11] Jesse: They know, you look a certain way, and that means a certain thing about you. But on the flip side, that kind of is divination, right? Like, you know something about a person, even though you’ve never met them just by how they look. And that is kind of like that, like aura reading kind of situation, it’s just like seen differently.
[00:15:31] Jesse: Mm. So like from a mentalist perspective, it’s like you, you have experienced knowing that certain kinds of individuals that look like this. Have these qualities or have these needs. Um, but that can be fortune telling, like if, if I probably told, I’m not sure there’s the word for mentalist in Mandarin? Oh, I have no idea.
[00:15:51] Jesse: Yeah. But like, if I probably told my parents that they’d be like, yeah, that’s probably like part of what they’re doing. Like they’re reading the person. Yeah. Um, so it’s both, I think, empirical in a sense, and also woo. In a, in another sense,
[00:16:06] Angela: Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways.
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[00:16:40] Angela: Thank you. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that like brings me to the whole, like, because when you were like, oh, I don’t really know what is considered Western. Um, , you know, fortune telling for me in like doing the research and, and also just generally as someone who is yeah, more. Woo, woo. And also just.
[00:17:03] Angela: Loves ghost stories of like, you know, that, that whole side of things I was like, yeah. Well, it kind of depends on what you define as fortune telling and divination and all that stuff. But like this whole idea of like the mentalist type, like, you know, conjecturing reminds me of, um, like mediums, right? Like psychic mediums who.
[00:17:27] Angela: Who can tell, like some, I personally think that there are people that have some sort of innate, like power, um, to like that are just a little bit more open to the, the like world, the physical world and the spiritual worlds. And they can like, they have some of that, but I think there’s a lot of. Crooks out there that are just like making shit up.
[00:17:50] Angela: And a lot of what’s psychic mediums, the ones who really like prey on people that are vulnerable, especially ones who just like lost someone. And they’re kind of looking for some closure. A lot of times they are just kind of like, okay, based on how you look, I’m gonna guess, like, You lost a, you know, a parent based on your age versus like a lover or whatever.
[00:18:12] Angela: Right. And like, when they, they they’re like, oh, I’m seeing a name and they’re like, it’s a man’s name. Like, they’re kind of like asking you to feed them stuff. Right. So, so I definitely see some kind of parallels with, with that, um, with like psychic mediumship. Um, and I think there’s that kind of stuff in Asian culture too.
[00:18:32] Angela: It’s it’s weird. the more I did research on like, you know, Asian versus Western, um, fortune telling stuff. The more I was like, there’s just, I don’t know. Everyone seems to have like, kind of similar stuff, like yes, there is, like, you mentioned the kind of like. Pillars of Chinese, traditional Chinese fortune telling.
[00:18:53] Angela: But a lot of that stuff is like also in a bunch of other cultures that are not Asian too. So like Palm reading is one of them. And like, you know, the, you mentioned the, the features, right? Like your, how your face looks. I’m sure other, you know, cultures are using that kind of stuff too. And definitely a lot of cultures do the thing where you like throw stuff on the ground, right?
[00:19:13] Angela: Like sticks or coins or like bones or whatever. It’s like. Part of it for me, feels like it’s like, all this stuff is a lot older than necessarily one specific culture. It kind of comes from like, you know, when humans were like, I, I’m not saying like caveman days, but like somewhere between caveman days and like first civilized to society.
[00:19:37] Angela: People were always trying to like make out what the universe means. Right. And like a lot of times back then it was like, oh, there’s a God of fire. Who’s like mad at us right now. And like, this is why it’s happening. But like the, you mentioned dowm being about kind of like interpreting nature and like how to be one with nature.
[00:19:56] Angela: I mean, that all makes sense to me that. all this stuff started a long, long time ago when people were a lot closer to nature and like using things from nature, like animals and you know, how leaves are falling and like kind of trying to find patterns and all that. So, I mean, I’m sure there’s some, like, Cultural, you know, um, borders, you could draw in terms of like the actual methodology of certain, some, you know, certain of these methods.
[00:20:29] Angela: But for me, it just feels like it all stems back from like, you know, or early human life and trying to like, make sense of the, the world and all the like crazy shit happening that you. um, interpret,
[00:20:44] Jesse: right? Yeah, no, I, I, a hundred percent agree with you. Like I hope I’m not stepping in it, but I think like this fortune telling is a way to make sense of the universe in a way that some religions are right.
[00:20:59] Jesse: Like, you’re always, I feel like people have always wanted to understand, like, what’s your role in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. And like why you exist on this, on this earth. And these are all different expressions of. Um, what I do find really interesting that you mentioned is that like Daoism was founded like long time ago.
[00:21:22] Jesse: Mm-hmm . And even then when they weren’t that modern, they were concerned about being separated from nature. And now I’m like, oh my God. We’re like so far away from that. Yeah. That it’s like crazy that, um, at that point in time, there was already somebody thinking about like how divorced we are from, from being in the natural environment that.
[00:21:42] Jesse: That we came from. Hmm. Yeah. So I guess like most of these things are just about kind of like restoring that in a way. Maybe not restoring, like, honoring that in a way. Cuz I feel like most people understand, like we can’t go back to being like caveman, like that’s just not gonna work, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t live, um, in a way that gives some weight to the fact that we are animals and we came from nature.
[00:22:08] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So, um, changing gears a little bit earlier, you mentioned that your mom said, you know, the way, the way people use fortune telling is not for petty small things, but usually for like big crossroads type things. Um, and something that I came across in my research and also one of the like tidbits my parents did tell me in the past that I found interesting is.
[00:22:34] Angela: W, I mean, we can all kind of understand why fortune telling and like mysticism type stuff came about earlier on. Right? Like we said, there’s lots of stuff you just can’t explain. Especially like before science was as, you know, prolific and all that stuff, but like, why is it still so prevalent in modern society in like in many places, but like definitely throughout Asia.
[00:22:58] Angela: It is like very common, the, the practice of fortune telling, and it’s not looked down on, it’s actually seen as like a legitimate form of like getting clarity on a situation and, um, I think a big part of it is something related to what my dad said as a one off kind of joke. But I think it’s true. He was like, oh, um, Chinese people don’t have therapists.
[00:23:25] Angela: They have fortune tellers. like, they don’t go see therapists. They just go to see the swim. And I thought it was funny when he said that, but I was like, actually that. Totally legit because mental health is something that we’ve discussed a lot is like still pretty looked down on in terms of like, trying to get ahead of it and like take care of it.
[00:23:47] Angela: In Asian societies, like it’s not common to go see a therapist, just cause. And like, just to want to like take care of, you know, preserve your mental health and anyone who is seen as someone who goes to talk to a therapist is seen as crazy. Like they have something wrong with them as opposed to someone who’s just trying to like be, you know, live their best life, which is.
[00:24:13] Angela: Where the Western worlds are trending. Right. Um, and so I was reading that. Yeah. A lot of people go to fortune tellers as a means to get like professional help, essentially in a way that isn’t looked down on by society. So it’s not as frequent as like, you know, a therapist, you probably are going more often than like once a year or whatever, versus like, in, in the case of fortune telling it’s not.
[00:24:42] Angela: It’s not like every week you’re going to go see your fortune teller, but like it, maybe it’s a couple times a year or whatever. And like, I don’t know. You mentioned something about like your mom. Was like, oh, I don’t believe that fortune, like I’m rejecting this fortune. Right. I think a lot of times people seek, um, validation in what they were already going to do.
[00:25:04] Angela: Um, or like getting someone to like getting an object, quote, unquote, objective third party to tell them like, oh yeah, you were, that’s a good decision. Or like, yes, the. Or showing that like, you should be going down this type of path anyway, and then you’re just like, you’re getting the validation you needed, as opposed to, if they say something that’s like, not what you wanted, you might reject it and be like, oh, well this is all a sham.
[00:25:28] Angela: Anyway, you know, like it’s because you, you just want that kind of like outside assurance. And for me, that’s not the only role therapist play obviously, but a big reason. go to therapy is that sometimes, especially in like conflicts with other people, there are only people that were there or like you and that other person.
[00:25:51] Angela: And so if you feel a certain way and that other person is not. Validating the way that you feel to have a third party come in and like hear the situation and say like, yes, it makes sense that you would like feel this way or based on the way that person acted like, you know, it’s normal to feel X, Y, Z, like that validation as a big reason, I, I go to therapy.
[00:26:14] Angela: Um, so I, I can see, uh, like parallel in the use of fortune telling. To seek validation for something you wanted to do or didn’t think was right already. Yeah. And then getting like that source of truth,
[00:26:29] Jesse: right? Yeah. Did you read that from the vice there’s a vice article? No. Oh, okay. There’s a vice article.
[00:26:35] Jesse: That was basically the title is in Taiwan. Fortune tellers are the preferred form of, of therapist. It was, I was reading is really interesting because, um, one of the people they interviewed was like, you know, when I went to psychotherapy, I just didn’t. , I didn’t know what to do because it took a different framework.
[00:26:52] Jesse: So he was like, that therapist was asking me how I feel about something. And he was like, I don’t feel anything about this. Like, I don’t know what you, you know, like he was kind of like what you want from me kind of situation. It’s not really the point of psychotherapy, but if you’ve never been. It can be like a really hard thing to, to like open up and like acknowledge certain feelings, especially if you’re not thinking about it that way necessarily.
[00:27:14] Jesse: Yeah. And, um, they do mention that, uh, a lot of, I, I think a lot of that is replaced by visiting fortune tellers or having certain superstitions like that. I don’t know, kinda like bring a little bit more objectivity as you were saying that whole third, third person view, um, into a situation where that, that could be very subjective.
[00:27:37] Jesse: Right? You, you might have many different ways to resolve a, a life crossroads
[00:27:41] Angela: issue. Yeah. The, um, the feeling seeing is interesting because I’m sure that a lot of the reason why the traditional therapy doesn’t like resonate necessarily with Asian. Culture or like more conservative Asian culture is that we are not raised to talk about our feelings.
[00:27:59] Angela: Like it’s not common for us to like, acknowledge what we are feeling in any given moment and like give validity to it and kind of like process that. So I could see why it would be really difficult to ask someone in like Taiwan, traditional Taiwan or whatever, right. To be like, oh, how did you feel in that moment?
[00:28:17] Angela: It’s like, I don’t fucking know. Like I don’t, I don’t know anything about my emotions. Yeah. Versus. We’ve talked about this many times, it’s a stereotype, but it’s, it is true in many, in many places, is that like Asian culture respects authority a lot. Right. And like any authoritative figure, a lot of times like kind of brings, uh, a sense of like calm to people to listen to an authoritative figure.
[00:28:43] Angela: And so if a fortune teller can. Be really confident in their answer to you. Like you should not do this because the, you know, the, the stars show that like your destiny is not that way, then you feel like, oh, he knows something though. Like, I don’t know, you know, like this is just what it is. So I I’d better listen to him.
[00:29:03] Angela: Um, and you kind of feel a sense of security in having someone who seems to know it more than you do tell you to do. Thing, right? Yeah.
[00:29:13] Jesse: Yeah, exactly. And, um, another one of the articles that I was looking at survey data from 2004, which is like , but, um, it said like 30, 30, 6% of the population thinks that fortune telling can help in innovating disasters.
[00:29:26] Jesse: And these are the next two ones I think are really interesting. 50, 56% view it as helping to provide peace of mind. Yeah. So definitely that whole like mental health, mental comfort. Yeah. And 53% credit it with influencing daily behavior. And. Mm. And, um, one of the main guys that they were interviewing for this article was saying like, he personally thinks that fortune telling is still popular and around because of the uncertainties of modern society.
[00:29:53] Jesse: So he’s saying like Taiwan has changed so fast so quickly and it can make people feel like it’s like a little outta control. Like when your life changes really quickly, you’re like, oh my God, like what’s happening. And so having this as a kind of. Um, a way to mitigate your feelings of uncertainty around new things and the modernity of society I think is, is also a reason why it’s still very popular.
[00:30:22] Angela: Well, um, I think we also, we talked a little bit about this, um, but maybe there’s more we can dig into here, which is kind of like the crossover between. Fortune the practice of fortune telling or like these kind of objective, quote, unquote, objective, third parties and spirituality, religion, all that stuff.
[00:30:42] Angela: Because, um, you know, I, I think part of why I was interested in doing this topic is that it’s like, The idea fortune telling has like, come, I’ve come across it more in like things I’m watching. Like for example, I’m watching like Korean dramas more. Right. And like there there’s often kind of subplots where they like go to a fortune teller to kind of like, you know, get a certain reading and it influences them a certain way.
[00:31:10] Angela: Um, and in Korean ones, I’m sure it’s not just in Korean culture. It’s uh, probably in a lot of other Asian ones too, but like, Uh, there’s a certain type of fortune to telling where they get possessed by a spirit. And it’s that spirit that’s like telling, you know, reading a certain fortune. Um, and yeah, I don’t know like everything about this, but I looked a little bit into where it exists in Chinese culture as well.
[00:31:36] Angela: and it seems like, um, at least in Chinese culture, the thought is that some of the possessions are by like gods. So like deities will like use human vessels to embody, to like tell a certain thing. And then I think I know where your HEADSS at, but like when we were kids growing up in temple, we every like once a year or whatever, they had, like those really big.
[00:32:02] Angela: Gatherings of like different Dallas temples across California would like meet and have like a big Dallas day. Um, and we had like, you know, I don’t know what their technical like titles were, but they were like leaders in the Dallas community, but had like certain special roles. And there were like possessions kind of that they would like, you know, start, I don’t know.
[00:32:26] Angela: They, to me, it was weird because I was like, I don’t know what’s happening, but they like suddenly. Seemed like, you know, they were acting different, like a totally different personality. And then they would like draw with their feet or hands like in the sand and like make certain patterns or words or whatever.
[00:32:43] Angela: And I, I didn’t really understand why that was happening or like what was going on.
[00:32:48] Jesse: But yeah. Yeah. So I was literally about to say that and it, I, they have they’re mediums basically. Yeah. There’s some, there’s some mediums that they bring in a few times a year to like channel one of the, one of the. And, um, I remember very vividly they had, um, so the, the medium was activated.
[00:33:08] Jesse: Let’s say sure. She, I, I don’t, that sounds really icky, activated. Okay, sure. Yeah. Um, and she was, you know, we had those like offering plates with fruit on them. Yeah. She was passing out and had it greats and she’s like, everyone take a grape. And she is like, does anyone not have a grape? And there were like a few people who were like, we don’t have it.
[00:33:27] Jesse: And she’s like, did anyone take two grapes? And people were like, And, um, she was like, yeah, there should have been enough grapes for like everybody, like just one for everybody in the room. And I was like, well, as a kid, I was like, oh my God. and they make it like very convincing whether it’s real or not, because at the end of the activation, the person just like falls and they’re like old for like, and then like an hour or something like that.
[00:33:53] Jesse: But yeah, it is, it is very. I did. I honestly, when you were saying that, I was like, who does that? And then I was like, oh wait, we did that.
[00:34:04] Angela: you were like judging. You’re like, what fools think
[00:34:08] Jesse: this should have been. I was like, invite somebody into your body. Absolutely not.
[00:34:15] Angela: Well, no, it’s not that. It’s not that the people who were seeking answers went and were like, please possess me soul, like spirit. It was that the fortune teller they went to.
[00:34:28] Angela: Is like their power derived is derived
[00:34:31] Jesse: from a OK. Yeah. That makes more sense. I was not, no, no,
[00:34:34] Angela: no. What? This is not Exorcist. We’re not like out here being like, Hey demon, come on in. No, no, no, no,
[00:34:41] Jesse: no, yeah, no. Yeah. Okay. It’s both sides now. I was like, hold on, wait way.
[00:34:48] Angela: So funny. Um, but yeah, so, I mean, I don’t know.
[00:34:52] Angela: It’s like very weird to me. I don’t, I don’t really know where that came from necessarily. Um, and I think, you know, this reminds me of when we were doing the meditation episode and I was saying, how. The Vipasana meditation was created by Buddha, the human thousands of years ago, but then Buddhism like came about after he died.
[00:35:14] Angela: And like the religion of Buddhism kind of like went many different ways and sort of the meditation technique because people started like kind of adding to it. And for me, it’s interesting because doism is what we were raised with. Um, and I just wonder where. I don’t know, the splintering happened of like how doism evolved into something that can both be about just like being one with nature.
[00:35:42] Angela: And also the having these like mediums possessed by deities and like drawing things in the sand. So I just, I, yeah, I don’t know how this stuff
[00:35:51] Jesse: happened. Well, you know, I feel like the tradition is. it’s like, you know, passed down word of mouth. Sometimes, sometimes there’s written documentation, but even then, like people can change that throughout the years.
[00:36:04] Jesse: And, and that can really transform something that used to be this one thing to, to be something else.
[00:36:09] Angela: Yeah. So I don’t know. I mean, like you said, we, you know, we’re on different ends of the Woohoo spectrum, but I’m not like, I certainly don’t believe everything at face value. And so for me, I, I find it difficult because it kind of reminds me.
[00:36:24] Angela: More generally about the way that I see spirituality versus religion, where it’s like, what does spirituality mean to me in terms of like what I believe and the values I hold and the kind of person I’m aspiring to be based on those beliefs, as opposed to like what a certain book says it’s supposed to be and how people have written, what that religion is supposed to be.
[00:36:47] Angela: Right. And I’m kind of like struggling with accepting. Both, um, as like true. Um, but I guess doesn’t matter if I do or not. It’s like each person decides for themselves what their truth is.
[00:37:02] Jesse: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it’s a very, it’s a very personal thing. And I think even like, I feel like using up for can teller is also like a very personal thing.
[00:37:10] Jesse: Oh, just because like the circumstances, um, from which you would want to go are usually like very impactful in your life. Yeah, mm-hmm
[00:37:20] Angela: did you also learn anything from your parents about, um, because I think part of what we wanted to talk about and you’ve already mentioned is just like experiences our families have had with fortune telling.
[00:37:30] Angela: For me. All I know is that, like we talked about the names thing, my dad definitely went to fortune teller to get options from my brother’s Chinese name. They didn’t do it for me because I was already in the us and, you know, fortune, Tell’s not as, um, practiced here, but what my mom has done separately. . It was like when Ramona and I got engaged and we were thinking about wedding dates, she definitely was like, oh, you need to tell me the dates that you’re thinking, because I need to like cross reference with like the lunar calendar to make sure that it’s not, uh, bad an unlucky date or whatever.
[00:38:04] Angela: And I don’t think she went to a fortune teller. I think there’s just like, I don’t know, sources like texts that she can reference. Kind of allude to these like lucky versus unlucky dates. Um, have your parents like referenced that kind of text or like, do they go to people for that kind of stuff?
[00:38:26] Jesse: Um, honestly they didn’t really, like, I asked them if they used it before and they did like, aside from the anecdote that my mom gave me, they didn’t really say, so I’m gonna say no, but I also think that like with certain common events like that, Wedding like a wedding date is a very common event.
[00:38:43] Jesse: Yeah. You can probably just, there’s probably something online that will let you tell, like the date, like astrology kind of like horrors go for today. Like yeah. Kind of situation. Um, for more like tricky things. I don’t know necessarily if there is. Um, but no, they didn’t, they didn’t particularly, they didn’t particularly want to share any potential traumas that they brought to the.
[00:39:11] Angela: What your age of parents didn’t wanna talk about feelings and drama, how bizarre .
[00:39:17] Jesse: Um, yeah, so they didn’t, they didn’t say anything. And so I was like, I’m not gonna press.
[00:39:21] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. The, well, the horoscope thing you mentioned is interesting because when I was doing the research, it was like, again, what’s the definition of fortune telling, right?
[00:39:33] Angela: Because, um, a different source that I was looking. Also lumped in things like the Chinese horoscope and like and all that stuff as defined under the realm of fortune telling. And so then I was like, I mean, anything could be fortune telling that because horoscopes in my mind is like, cross-cultural right.
[00:39:56] Angela: Like the idea of looking to the stars and kind of like where you fall in that is every culture has done that. Um, and. Yes, we have different animals in the Chinese Zodiac and you know, that horoscope, but like, you know, it is still based on things like your birth year or month or whatever, and kind of like personality traits that you’re supposedly have and, and all that.
[00:40:20] Angela: And, um, I don’t know if you know, but before, before she had a baby, one of the, uh, hobbies that she got into was astrology and it was. Really intense. She had like this massive book and she was also like, oh, I need to know the like exact date, like exact time you were born and like, which day of the week it was.
[00:40:40] Angela: And like all this stuff to like, find your real, um, astrological, like astrological, not fortune. That’s not how she said it, but like, yeah. What, what goes into kind of like your reading? Um, Which sounds exactly like the Chinese portrait life. ,
[00:40:58] Jesse: you know, what you, when you were just describing it, one other thing popped into my head and kind of like differences is I feel like, um, in media.
[00:41:07] Jesse: And how generally like Western fortune telling is portrayed is like, you’re going to the fortune teller to demystify like a past event or a future event. But to your point with like functionally and stuff, some of that kind of fortune telling isn’t so much trying to demystify the past or secure knowledge of the future, but it actually helps you build auspiciousness or fortune.
[00:41:34] Jesse: So like function rate is all is not necessarily. Demystifying your past, although you, you could, you could look at the room, the function, I have a room and say like, oh, you you’ve been sick because it’s arranged incorrectly. But the arrangement is to help you develop like better fortune or better health, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you will have it, or it’s not necessarily telling you something about a health event in your future.
[00:41:59] Angela: Yeah. And then the, the things like horo. Because now I’m like, are we all just like, are we all just seeking fortune telling all the time? Because when I grew up, like all those, like teeny Popp magazines, like J 14 and like 17 and whatever, they all have horoscopes. Right. And I love that section. I’d be like, Ooh, what’s my, you know, who am I gonna fall in love with?
[00:42:24] Angela: And like, what’s my career thing, you know? And. You seek you, you look for what you want, right? Because like they could say 20 things in there and three of them could sound kind of like something happening in your life and be like, yes, this is spot on . But yeah, I’ve been into that shit since I was like 13 and I’m.
[00:42:46] Angela: It’s so popular with like everyone it’s I, yeah. I don’t know if people even know that they’re like, I don’t know, falling under this, like umbrella of quote unquote, fortune telling.
[00:42:56] Jesse: Yeah. I feel like that that’s been around for a while, but also it’s hard to say as a kid into now, like how, how many people were into it and how serious they were.
[00:43:06] Jesse: Like, it certainly feels like it’s always been around, but it hasn’t been. so popular until recently. And also with the popularity, people taking it more seriously than they have been in the past. Like, I feel like yes for scripts have been around forever for me. I like reading them cuz I think they’re funny.
[00:43:26] Jesse: Um, like I, I, I only subscribe to the, the, the ones that are funny. So like the mean ones and like co-star like that they post like. Amusing stuff about star science. I see. But I also, I also know friends who take it like much, like are very serious about it. They’re like, it’s, it can be like impactful in your life.
[00:43:43] Jesse: And I’m like, oh wow. Like I didn’t never thought that people would not that there’s nothing wrong with that at all, but it just feels like it’s been more popularized and also more people are taking it, like, you know, to heart.
[00:43:55] Angela: I mean, yeah. I think there are a lot more people now who kind of see like your horoscope sign.
[00:44:01] Angela: As like a foundational kind of like identity marker of what kind of person you are. Right. Like it’s a trope, but you know, all the jokes about like, oh, you’re a Gemini. Oh, makes sense. Or like, you know, that kind of . Yeah. So I don’t know. It, it’s kind of fun to me to see. all these like different ways of defining mysticism, fortune telling all this stuff and like how common it is across different cultures.
[00:44:32] Angela: Even if, you know, we started this topic because we were interested in the way it was built up in Chinese culture. It’s just like, actually it’s a, it feels like there’s a human connection to all of it. It’s just like, everyone’s again, just trying to like, make sense of shit. We can’t make sense of.
[00:44:49] Jesse: Yeah, no.
[00:44:49] Jesse: Agreed. Totally.
[00:44:51] Angela: cool. Okay. Well, shall we go to the fortune cookie clothes? Absolutely. All right. So we wanted to end our topic on asking each other. If we would ever go to a fortune teller ourselves. Why, or why not? Jesse? You’re making a very skeptic look. Why don’t you go first?
[00:45:18] Jesse: Um, I think it depends on what kind of fortune teller that I would be going to, and also like how much it costs.
[00:45:28] Angela: okay. What if, what if, um, cost didn’t matter? Like, it was like, I was like, I’ll pay for whatever fruit dollar you want. So like, forget the cost. Okay. I think, and. Okay. You said depends on which type. So like which type would you definitely not go to? And which type would you actually go
[00:45:46] Jesse: to? I think the kind that I would go to is.
[00:45:50] Jesse: like a, like a Taiwanese or a Chinese fortune teller. And the reason that I would be doing that is cuz I have like an interest in seeing what that experience is like and having the conversation with the person about like how that works, but it I’m not necessarily bought into it. So I was recently listening to this other podcast and they were talking about how like, you know, it’s a.
[00:46:15] Jesse: Pair of gays. And they were saying how one of them went to, um, Seder or something like that with, with the Jewish family, um, the partners, the partners, Jewish family. And basically he was saying that they, they observed the holiday, but they don’t believe in any of. The mystical parts of Judaism mm-hmm , but they still participate in it because of what it represents for them in terms of their culture.
[00:46:42] Jesse: Mm-hmm um, as, as Jewish people. So that’s kind of the way that I, I think about it too. Like it’s not necessarily that I believe the thing, but I am interested in participating in it because it is part of my culture. And I wanna see what that experience is like. Hmm. Yeah.
[00:46:58] Angela: I mean, that makes sense. It reminds me of, like we talked about like, I mean, every Asian person goes to the temples and like, does the incense and bowing, even if you like, don’t necessarily believe in it or know what you’re doing with it is just like, oh, I’m supposed to do this.
[00:47:14] Angela: I’m supposed to like, bring a good look or something. Um, what about you? Um, I would definitely go to fortune C, but I think because I am already more primed to like, believe this kind of stuff in general, like spiritual things. I’m also very skeptical because of that, because I believe that there is truth in it.
[00:47:36] Angela: And like some people truly have some sort of, you know, ability. I think there, I, I believe that there are a lot of frauds out there, so I would do it, but only if I can find someone that has like a really, really strong reputation of. You know, having proven certain things or like, I don’t know. Someone I trusted, you know, said that they had like a really good.
[00:48:03] Angela: Um, fortune toing session or whatever, from someone then I would do it. It’s kind of, it’s the same way I approach, like, you know, with doing psychedelics, like we went to Peru and whatever, but we didn’t just like Google any old, like IASA in Peru and like bought that kind of thing. It was like, We had a friend who did it themselves and said, this is like legit.
[00:48:26] Angela: And so we did it. I see it similarly. It’s like, I see that there is value to be had in this kind of stuff. But I believe that there is a lot of people out there just to like scam you. So I, I wouldn’t go to just like any, like, I, I’m not trying to go to like, The like, uh, strip mall in some random LA like, you know, 9:00 PM, $20 taro card lady and be like, oh, she’s the one.
[00:48:51] Angela: But like, oh, I believe someone knows it.
[00:48:54] Jesse: so you would go to therea Caputo? No, I don’t
[00:48:58] Angela: believe her.
[00:49:03] Jesse: I P Theresa Kabuto.
[00:49:06] Angela: I, yeah, I would do it, but depends on.
[00:49:09] Jesse: awesome. Hmm. Well, this is a very interesting conversation. listeners, please let us know how. What you think about it? Uh, if you have had any experiences going to a fortune teller Western or otherwise, write it and tell us where you’re from@gmail.com or DMS on
[00:49:29] Angela: Instagram.
[00:49:30] Angela: Yes. And I’m, I selfishly I’m like particularly interested in the like spiritual, the spirit PO I dunno, you don’t like the word possession, but like, okay. The spirit. Um, yeah, yeah. Vessel thing. Like if anyone, especially in like Korea, because, uh, again, I brought this topic up initially because it was like, I keep seeing it in like Korean dramas and stuff.
[00:49:53] Angela: So I, I think it’s a little bit more. Uh, front, you know, front of mind or whatever for me, because of that. But like, I’m interested if anyone has like sought out that kind of fortune telling and has an experience there, I’d be interested to hear about it because we had to like a peripheral experience with that in our downest thing.
[00:50:12] Angela: But like, we were so young and like, didn’t really understand what was happening versus like someone who actively seeks out that kind of thing. Uh, write us in, be interested. And come back next week. So we’ll have another episode for you then. Um, and until then,