Angela Lin 0:15
This week in celebration of America, we wanted to talk about what it really means to be American and all the good and bad that kind of comes with that. So let’s start off with the building blocks of being American. For me, one of the biggest first things that we’ve definitely talked about a lot is the concept of individualism because especially in contrast with our Asian parents upbringings and the cultures back in Taiwan, China, etc. Whereas very communal based, America is one of the like uniquely different countries in the world I think that is like very focused on you as an individual. What you want to do for your future. And that’s why the label that people give for America is this like land of opportunity for you to like, make a life for yourself. And we’re also kind of like obsessed with this concept of winning. But I think that’s all tied up into this individualist, self centered kind of way of thinking.
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 1:21
Yes. I also think that from this individualism and this idea of you’re coming here to seek opportunity, springs, this very tight looking perspective, where you’re only looking towards the future and the possibilities of what you can achieve versus reflecting on the past history and learning from that. I mean, our country is fairly young, it’s like 200, something years old, but obviously, we know there’s a lot of problematic history that’s important to learn from. And with this idea of like individualism exceptionalism for looking a lot of values. Usually drowned out or forgotten. A lot of us have studied like American history, obviously in school, but you don’t really understand what it really means on a personal level. So there were never really humanized stories about how people suffered, you only really got to see the exceptional individuals who came out of that. But you don’t hear stories about just your regular person who was working as a house slave on a plantation or person who was just farming as that slave on a plantation. And I think those are really important stories to hear and really makes it personal for you
Angela Lin 2:36
Yeah, another big piece of being American is that we don’t have a singular heritage, or common ethnic culture or anything with each other because we are a country of immigrants. So like the unless you’re a Native American you weren’t, you’re not American from like birth. So because of that, it’s gonna be difficult for people that come from such different cultures have different values have different languages to come together and like try to find common ground. But on the flip side, I actually find beauty in that we’re this melting pot. So unlike most other countries in the world, we are one of the unique places where people from all over the world come together and coexist.
Jesse Lin 3:28
Yes. So I think something else really interesting and really unique about being American is how much we love, our rights and our Constitution. And I think this is really, really interesting topic because I personally have not seen people been so invested in a document that is more than 200 years old as a way to validate their current existence. It’s so interesting. I feel like this is another uniquely American thing where you’re like being are my rights and they’re mine and I can do whatever I want.
Angela Lin 4:04
I mean, it goes hand in hand with individualism, because you’re out for yourself. So you’re like, hey, this country was founded on us all trying to like advance ourselves, we broke free from the chains of Britain to like make our own way. So like, who were you just in my way with my right to do like wherever the fuck I want so that that is like you know even though we have these like disparate cultures that come together in America, that is one of the like core things we all have in common, which is like, I’m here to do what’s best for me and I can do whatever I want. Don’t trample on my rights. Like that’s a common way that we all think. And so there obviously a million rights that we could discuss, but there are two that I think are very top of mine, one of which is the right to bear arms. This specific right in particular has gotten a lot of attention because of the increased amount of mass shootings. And so this one’s so interesting because it is one of the like foundational rights that Americans have. But it is become so politicized that like the left and right have completely opposing views on this, the right is focused on like, I want the right to bear arms so that I can protect my family, I can protect my land, I can protect me, right. And so, on the left, it’s focused on like, Okay, well, what’s the damage that can be done by you bearing arms or not not like you specifically, but if like these mentally unstable people who are the cause of these mass shootings, if they’re bearing arms, like what’s the implication for society? So it’s been a really interesting debate, I think, because there’s so much like villainizing on both sides.
Jesse Lin 5:49
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean hand in hand with that is the whole idea of freedom of speech, right that you can say whatever you want, and, you know, it doesn’t matter what you say you have the right to make that speech. But the same with the right to bear arms, there’s a broad level of interpretation amongst the public. And some interpretations on both sides are incorrect in terms of what the law actually covers.
Angela Lin 6:12
There’s also just this like huge gray area right now. And when you say something that is not at the like, prevailing narrative that’s being discussed, you get cancelled socially via social media or like socially by your friends, like you are being punished for your freedom of speech.
Jesse Lin 6:33
I think where there’s some confusion is that people think that they have the freedom of speech with impunity, meaning that they can say whatever they want with no consequences. And the thing of course, with both of these things is again, it’s so me-me-me centric, right? Like you think about the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was written like forever ago, man, like there’s no way that the founding fathers could have conceived that these rights would be used in the current ways that they are right now, but the interpretation is very me.
Angela Lin 7:06
Okay, let’s get into the shit. Are you proud to be American Jesse?
Jesse Lin 7:10
That is a really loaded question. I think there are many things that I like about being American. I like the diversity that we have in our country. I like the fact that there are so many minority groups that are loud and vocal about their existence in this country. I like my life in general. But I think when you look at the history of America, what’s happening now and the history of America, in the international sphere, there are situations where we are on the right side of history, but there are also situations that we’re not and aside from that, it’s hard for me to feel proud of something that’s so abstract. There are many different things that make up being American. And most of those things are kind of individualistic, right? They’re unique to each individual person. And there are no real shared ethnicity or heritage or qualities that make a person uniquely American. So for me, it’s really hard to say that I am truly proud of being American just because of the problematic history and the fact that it’s such an abstract concept.
Angela Lin 8:20
But you don’t like hate being American, you wouldn’t like give up your citizenship.
Jesse Lin 8:25
I think it really depends. I mean, changing your citizenship in general is not something that anybody does lightly, right. Like once you lose your citizenship, it’s really difficult to gain back, you know, you kind of have to weigh all the pros and cons based off of the things that I was talking about in terms of the attributes of the country that I love the people, the places and the things they think would have to be equal to in a new place for me to give it up. But I don’t want to say that it’s like not feasible. It’s just a more logical choice for me that I would need to have enough benefits to consider doing or changing my citizenship.
Angela Lin 9:00
Yeah, you and I have different views on this like concept of pride and being American. So it sounds like obviously you like different parts of being in this country and the people here but you’re not like necessarily proud and like going to be yelling at the top of the rooftops about being American versus I have always been like, incredibly proud of being American. And I think though that comes from a place of privilege. Honestly, it’s because when I think about being American, I think about the privilege I have over people with different nationalities in terms of so many things like the quality of life that we have the economic power that the country has, and when I fly to different countries, I rarely have to think about if I have to have a visa because the diplomatic relationship America has with most other countries in the world makes it so that you never have to think about it if you’re going to be accepted once you’ve landed in a country. When I was younger and I went back to Taiwan, it would definitely be like, I get to live in America but you guys are stuck here which is like you know, these are not like great things. That’s why I’m caveat being that like this comes from a place of privilege that I’m thinking about all these things. But like, I think that’s also tied to why you are not so eager to give up your citizenship because even if from like a social norm standpoint, you’re not like so, so proud of being American, you wouldn’t so easily throw away all the privilege that comes with being American so many people fight hard for years and years and years to gain the citizenship because it is one of the most powerful citizenships you can have in the world. And so that feeds into my pride for being in this country. And it’s not like necessarily a good thing, but it’s because I feel like I’m like on the top of the world compared to other people. So I think that that is like the root of where my pride comes from. But I like that I agree with you. It’s not a perfect place. But I also could never fathom that there’s another country that I think is like infinitely better than America that I would like choose to live there over this place for the rest of my life, right, like maybe a portion of my life to get it from taste or whatever. But like, even when I live abroad for a few months at a time, I always miss coming home, like, whenever I pass customs, and they’re like, welcome home, like seeing that flag. It just I love America.
Jesse Lin 11:33
I have to agree with you the things that you said, I’m very thankful for those things. And just because I’m not necessarily like proud of the country doesn’t mean that I don’t recognize that there are many, many benefits in being a citizen here and that many people have struggled to try to become a citizen here. A lot of people come here chasing this idea of the American dream. Do you believe that that’s like a legitimate thing for a lot of people to achieve?
Angela Lin 11:57
Oh, that’s a loaded question. I didn’t know that you were going to phrase it like that. I believe in the American dream, it’s not an equal opportunity to achieve that dream for everyone. Obviously, people come here as immigrants but totally different resources, connections, education levels, language ability like that totally affects your ability to achieve the American dream. So I don’t think it’s fair just like any person, regardless of circumstance who lands in the US is going to have the same ability to achieve the American dream. Do I think that even the people with the worst circumstances if given infinite amount of ambition and perseverance, do I think it’s possible for them to achieve the American dream? Yes, but I think there are so many other things weighing people down that don’t come here with the right kind of circumstances and like a leg up that many people give up and like it’s hard to achieve if you don’t like push through forever, but there’s always like these outliers, right? Like the pursuit of happiness. Perfect example, literally a guy’s homeless with a child and he was hiding his homelessness while he was interviewing for jobs to make a better life for himself, and he did. So like, it’s fucking hard, but I think it is achievable. But people are not all equal in terms of the where they start part of it all.
Unknown Speaker 13:14
I agree with you, for the most part for all that I think everybody comes here with this golden idea of what America is like, and everybody is trying to achieve it. But I do think that the perspective is very myopic, because everyone thinks coming here will somehow make them exceptional, or that they’re landing here, they will find themselves in exceptionally different circumstances. And from that perspective, I think that the American Dream is not exactly true, because let’s face it, not everybody is exceptional, and not every place in America is exceptional. So as you also mentioned, it really does depend on the circumstances of the person but for sure, I think everyone has a very hopeful view and perspective of how their life might develop.
Angela Lin 13:59
Do you feel like this vision and this like hope that you’re gonna have the potential to become exceptional here is one of the big reasons that your parents immigrated here.
Jesse Lin 14:10
Yeah, for sure. I don’t think they were planning on being exceptional. Not that you don’t want to be exceptional, but like we’ve talked about this before about how the standard of living and the pay gap is so dramatically different between Taiwan and here even for basic service jobs. So I think their idea was that they would be able to come here with the levels of attainment that they had and generate a lot more than they would have. In some aspects they were able to do that but obviously everything scales right so you make more here but you also spend a lot more here so I do think that that part of the we’re gonna be so wealthy and well off piece of the dream was not quite achieved, but it definitely is one of the reasons for sure that I think my parents came here
Angela Lin 14:55
Mine too. I don’t think they thought they were going to be exceptional, necessarily. But like my dad, because he was an entrepreneur before he started that business after we moved to America so I think he’s like one of the most ideologically, like American of us all. So I think he in particular did come here thinking like, I am sick of working for other people and like being told what to do for pennies, right? Like, if I’m ever gonna do something for myself and like, be my own boss, this is where it’s gonna be. So I do think that’s a big part of why they came here and like not to say of course, like, my family’s not rich and like, he wasn’t exceptional to the point where he became like, okay, it’s whatever, but like, he did just fine for us. And I like I never felt like I was want for anything. So it did good for coming here for sure. So let’s get into the meat of like the cultural difference. Obviously, there are like great things about being American. But I think there are also things that we can take from our Asian culture in terms of the thinking some of the practices. One of those things is the communal thinking and I think the good thing is that we have made a little bit of progress in this sense because despite us being very me-me-me overall and like certainly people are somewhat breaking this right now especially in certain states, but during quarantine, I do feel like we have increased our level of societal concern for each other. When I am waiting in line to get into a supermarket now it makes me feel so good when I see that like everyone is the six feet apart. They’re all wearing their homemade masks, they’re like more aware of their surroundings and who’s around them and their behavior around each other. You’re actually considering other people in your environment as opposed to like just being on a you rampage which is like our usual way that we operate. So I don’t think we’re like at all to like the degree of Asia for example, where like if you have a minor cold you wear a mask so that you don’t spread your germs. Other people like that is ultimate like concern for others. I don’t think we’re anywhere near that. But like it is a nice little silver lining that I’m seeing that like we’re making baby steps towards that communal way of thinking through the quarantine.
Jesse Lin 17:13
This is a good change to highlight. I think it’s also worth talking about the differences in how we treat more vulnerable populations, especially when we’re talking about the elderly population in the US. I mean, we’ve seen a lot of different reports about coronavirus outbreaks in nursing homes, people being thrown out by nursing homes because of economical reasons. Like ideally, that should never be the case that a person would find themselves at the end of their life without a place to live for purely the fact of money.
Angela Lin 17:44
Yeah, for those that don’t know what Jesse’s talking about. So literally a bunch of people that have like dementia, or like, you know, difficult conditions for the caretakers to deal with have been dumped on the streets to become homeless. So that their places could be taken by COVID patients because the profit per head of a coven patient as opposed to that dementia patient is much higher. So the nursing home makes more money by dumping these people literally on the streets, but and not even telling their families they did that. And also, one of the things everyone’s shitting on New York about is that half your people that died are because Cuomo chose to have all the old people with COVID go back to the nursing homes, right to like, infect everyone else. And so half the cases of the people who’ve died so far in New York are old people in nursing homes, which is real bad.
Jesse Lin 18:38
Yeah, I mean, it just really shows that like the vulnerable populations are especially vulnerable at this time. And I feel like at the very beginning, no one really even thought about what would happen to them, right. Like you were just concerned about regular people who are contributing to society, and then we forgot about this whole, you know, subset of the population.
Angela Lin 19:00
And that’s because we don’t treat our elders the same way as an Asian culture where they literally like live with you another part of your extended family. It’s like it’s very easy to forget about your old people when they’re segregated into these old people homes and not like seen on a daily basis.
Jesse Lin 19:17
And it’s quite difficult, right? I mean, for some families, it’s not possible for them home with elderly parents, they just don’t have time or resources. But I think this is a good segue to our next topic about how we should as a society provide the means of support for these elderly people when their individual families may not have the economic means or time to do so. And one of these things is a universal health care system. I mean, Taiwan is a tiny ass frickin country and it has universal health care system. It’s just ludicrous that they have one and we don’t have one.
Angela Lin 19:48
I mean, this is such a big topic. It’s like universal health care is just like one of the ongoing bullshit of America. We’re one of the few countries in the world that does not have it still. Everything ties back to the individualism because choice and capitalism. Like it sucks, capitalism is one of the things that like makes America great and powerful for sure and gave us our position in the world. But it’s also the reason so many of our systems are fucked up. Because you know, health care is impossible right now because our health care system is privatized and has too many conflicting incentives to make it so that it’s like beneficial to the providers and all the insurance carriers and whatever to get all American citizens equal access to affordable or free health care.
Jesse Lin 20:32
Oh and it’s not that you know, many countries in Asia are socialists or communists. I mean, it’s just the one but on paper, but it’s just the idea of the collectivism versus individualism. The reason why we haven’t been able to get traction around universal health care is that everyone is still thinking of it as an individualistic thing. They’re like thinking about it in terms of my choices, my coverage, how much I have to pay, and they’re not thinking about as a group how everybody would benefit from system that covers everybody, including you. I think that’s a huge point. Because collectivism is not an exclusion of you, it’s not putting everybody in front of you, and you get nothing out of it. It’s just envisioning a world where it’s you and other people and putting that as your like, main perspective.
Angela Lin 21:17
Yeah, so we have a few things that we could learn from our older heritage or Asian culture. But there are definitely things that America has uniquely above Asia and above other countries. And one of them is the ability to keep inventing new things, new ways to do things, the like creativity that is involved in in doing that, and in arts and all that. And generally this like originality, I don’t think that spirit can be fully replicated anywhere else because we are so individualistic and focused on like advancing ourselves and doing things differently better than anyone else. That is why we’re so good at inventing stuff and coming up with new original ideas. So it’s hard for other countries to replicate that because they’re not so self absorbed. Other countries are good at imitation and maybe even like pushing it further once they get the original idea. But a lot of the original ideas come from us.
Jesse Lin 22:23
I think there’s also a very much a culture of risk taking embedded in America. I mean, if you just think about our parents and all the immigrant families trying to get their way here, that is like your first engagement with America is to take a huge risk, a huge leap of faith that your life will be better here. And we definitely also see that in terms of like entrepreneurial ventures and just in general the risks that people are willing to assume.
Angela Lin 22:47
Another thing that America does relatively better than Asia and other more homogenous societies is America is uniquely this melting pot, even though right now in the society for sure we have like a lot racial injustice and it’s still deep rooted and it’s still perpetuating into modern day. In relative terms compared to other countries, especially those that are more homogenous, we are way less racist than other countries because we have this diversity. Like yes, we still are racist for sure we have not obliterated that, but it’s not to the same degree as in other countries because frankly, when you step outside a lot of states in America, you have a mixing of many different ethnic background people. So like when you see different people, often different types of people often you can’t be as racist as someone who just like straight up hasn’t seen anyone that doesn’t look like themselves.
Jesse Lin 23:45
Yeah, I agree with you. I think because there is a larger diversity of people here we are actively confronted with the idea of racism and potentially saying racist things versus like an homogenous society where you don’t see people like that you never actually think to even think if you’re racist or not, because Cuz you don’t have to think about that, right? Like everybody you see is exactly alike. We also discussed this a little bit briefly, but we cannot get away from the standard of living man like it’s one of the key things that probably is a huge factor in deciding if you would take citizenship elsewhere. For better or worse, I can make a lot more doing what I do here than anywhere else in the world.
Angela Lin 24:23
I think a big part of that is our place in the global society. And the importance of the dollar in the world is unparalleled. We are what other people fix their currencies against. So how could we not be doing well and have a better standard of living than other places.
Jesse Lin 24:44
We also have very strong diplomatic sway in almost every international governmental body, I would say an outsize influence and you know, these things are not things that people normally think about, right like you don’t normally think about what’s the UN up to or what’s NATO up too, but there are important institutions and structures in place to protect the international community and we have a huge voice in all of those institutions, which means that our agenda is always pushed in those institutions.
Angela Lin 25:14
And speaking of having a voice I think one of our other advantages of being American is that English being our main language here it’s a privilege because like especially like you and I have traveled internationally before outside of even just Taiwan like other countries that we don’t speak the language and it’s a privilege to be able to land in almost any other country and be so ignorant that all you can speak English and everyone can still understand you or at least like an a broken English level, right? They could understand enough to help direct you to whatever you’re actually looking for. Like our country does not prioritize learning secondary languages besides English. You don’t have to to like get by in this country versus so many other countries, they have first like a national language that everyone can speak, then they’re like various dialects that are regional. And then probably they also forced their people to learn English because they know that if you want a say in the global community, you need English in your repertoire because it is not only the only language we speak in America, which is where a lot of people are trying to seek opportunity, but it is also the only universal language across the world. It’s something we have as an advantage over other countries for sure is the importance of the English language and how easily we can go anywhere with that and be understood.
Jesse Lin 26:43
What are some things you would change about our country?
Angela Lin 26:46
For sure, I would improve our level of social responsibility for each other as a society, even if we try to hold down the me-me-me factor, just 25% that’s going to go a long way I think having awareness of consideration of and like empathy for other people is something that I don’t think most people would disagree that they want to do those things but like when you consider the way that we act and the choices we make as a society, it is very focused just on me, me, me and like I do think this pandemic is teaching us to be more socially responsible than we were in the past. I just hope that it sticks and the other like, huge thing that’s happening right now besides the pandemic is everything that got sparked with the George Floyd incident that like spotlight that the racial injustices of our society has been given now, I think that this has sparked a new movement and consciousness within our society that it’s gonna be hard to go back from. So I do think like, even though it’s causing really like tough conversations, a lot of not always positive things like canceling people automatically not always great, but like it is forcing us to face these situations and the inequalities and like come up with solutions that are more beneficial to broader society and these marginalized communities than we have been thinking about before. So I do think these are really two very like collision course things that have happened to us, but then the short amount of like four months timeframe, but they’re so instrumental, I think, in starting to like slowly change our very centralist way of thinking in this country.
Jesse Lin 28:34
Speaking of social responsibility, I think something that I would love to see across all spectrums, and across all of us is more responsibility and ownership over the heritage of our country. We see that on both sides, right people on the more political part of the spectrum, disavow everything that’s happening right now regarding Black Lives Matter, even though it’s a completely merited response to the racist history of our past. But on the other side of it, when you think about more progressive or left leaning voters, a lot of the times what I hear is, you know, these things are happening and it’s the fault of the Conservative Party that’s in power right now. And it’s not related to us. And the truth is, it’s related to everybody, everybody votes, everybody has a voice. And we all have to take responsibility for what’s happening in terms of what our country is doing. Simply saying that this is not a government that reflects my values doesn’t change the fact that they’re dismantling people’s rights, that they’re doing terrible things abroad, like we need to come together and own that and part of that is accepting the history of our country as it is that it isn’t just rainbows and glitters exceptionalism for all 200 years of our country. There have been a lot of really terrible periods in our country in terms of oppression of minorities all throughout, and I think this is a really important lesson for everyone to learn because it’s something that can root and ground people and really humanize what our history has been. For example of the German society and how they educate their new generations regarding the history of Naziism in their country. If you look at this comparison, I think it’s very clear what the problem is like the German people are teaching their own people about the oppression that they created against the Jewish people. In our society right now, the oppressed people are trying to teach people about the oppression that happened to them, trying to convince them to change their minds. Like it shouldn’t be incumbent upon the oppressed population to explain why they’ve been oppressed, to explain why they’re angry about things, like it should be very clear to those of us with privilege that there is a very huge gap between what we have access to and what those who are fighting for their rights now have access to it’s very, very different. So I would love to see society, take ownership of that narrative and really educate future generations so everyone can have a great common understanding of what the rights and wrongs were of our country, be proud of the good things but also be ashamed of the bad things so that you feel motivated to enact changes to try to rectify that.
Angela Lin 31:12
Like even just base level way that we talked about doing that is just standardization of the way that history is taught, right? Because we were skewed like you said, like we think very narrowly that like the experiences that we had growing up reflect everyone else’s experiences growing up, but the history that we were taught in California are very different from the textbooks that are being taught in other states, especially like the South, for example. So one small step, it’s not going to be easy, but standardizing the materials and the way that educators are teaching the youth about this shared history that affects all of us.
Jesse Lin 31:53
Yes, absolutely.
Hey guys, welcome back to the sweet treat part of our podcast – Fortune Cookie. If you loved our Murrica’ episode, please give us some feedback. Shoot us some love. Feel free to email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com. We would love to hear all about your patriotic stories. What you love growing up in America, what you love about America. Again, drop us a note, send us a DM and we look forward to hearing from you. So I’ll kick it over to Angela to introduce what we’re gonna be talking about for our sweet treat.
Angela Lin 32:36
So what we want to talk about today is what stupid thing we love about the US. My favorite thing about the US is like the over the top love of everything, Murrica’, which like, play into that as well, but like, I think we’re the most obnoxious country when it comes to our patriotism. It’s like how many times have you been in a drunken sports bar and suddenly the whole crowd is chanting like you say, you say like, we are so obnoxious and I fucking love it and wearing everything American flag, like I owned at least five or six different American flag apparel pieces before and like, we’re just so obnoxious about it, and I love it and like, even just saying, like, Murrica’, like that, like, I fucking love it. And like Fourth of July comes around. We’re like fucking rowdy and like, just crazy. And I just love it. We’re just so obnoxious about our love of the country.
Jesse Lin 33:42
Okay, so I will talk about what I love to which is also I think, distinctly ridiculously American, which is the annual Nathan’s hot dog eating contest. I just think it’s such a provincial thing in a sense because it is very localized to New York City, Coney Island. But it’s been so sensationalized, like nationally that people are aware of it. And it’s just one of those things that’s like so extra and you just don’t know why it exists and like it really just only exists here and that’s why I love it. I always love to see every year the news come out about it, they’ll have a blurb and it’s always the same guy that wins. I just think that the whole concept of it is just pure American ridiculousness.
Angela Lin 34:24
Well, all in all, lots of things to love some things not so great. But with that said, Happy Fourth of July. Hope everyone is celebrating America’s birthday in as safe of a way and as fun of a way safely as you can this year. So until next time, when we have a new episode.