Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI
[00:00:00] Jesse Lin: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin
[00:00:02] Angela Lin: And I’m Angela Lin. Welcome back to another episode of, but Where Are You Really From? Woo Woo. today we’re talking about something not that fun, but interesting. Um, we’re talking about kind of the different varieties of racism, , that exist around the world. Um, specifically I think in the past we’ve done a lot of.
You know, digging around, talking about our own experiences as Asian Americans in the US That’s, and we’ve also talked about a little bit our experiences, not of racism, but just like kind of that outsider feeling of when we go back to the motherland because we’re not native, um, . But what we’re talking about today is a little bit of some of that, but mostly we’re talking about something we don’t talk about a lot, which is racism outside of the US so, and specifically in Asia.
So this is top of mind for us because I just came back from three months living in Korea. And I had a, I had a great time and like we, we had an episode about my time there and there were some hiccups related to, you know, me not being able to speak the language and kind of like confusion around what kind of Asian I am.
But generally I had a pretty positive experience. But the clips. That we posted , um, from that episode got quite a bit of chatter on TikTok. Mm-hmm. , because a lot of people slid into the comments to be like, what are you talking about? They are so racist. Um, especially towards Southeast Asians. So that. Kind of like sparked the interest in exploring this topic because it did.
It did kind of like come outta nowhere from my perspective. But we do have a very specific P O V that we bring to the table being American born Asians. So it was just interesting to see like all these people flood the comments that. Uh, they were all Asians in Asia. Um, but like people who either are kind of like defending things they’ve seen other people do or they experienced racism themselves as being like not the native Asian in one of those countries.
Mm-hmm. . So that’s the topic for today.
[00:02:30] Jesse Lin: So dense, I think. I know. Well, I think something interesting you mentioned is that we. Experienced racism in the sense that like no one has come up to, I, at least I hope not to you, but not to me. No one has ever come up to me and use like a racial slur or like epithet or something like that.
But I think, oh, oh,
[00:02:53] Angela Lin: I mean, I, no one’s like come up to me and use like, They haven’t called me like a, you know, bad word Yeah. Situation. But I’ve had people literally New York mm-hmm. because I remember it, that it like sh kind of shook me cause I was like, what the fuck? Um, in Chinatown, I like got off the subway and then some random dude on the street just like, Ching ching, CHED me,
Um, and yeah, in Chinatown girl in Chinatown. I dunno. And then it also happens to me when I was studying abroad in London in. in a neighborhood that was like very diverse too, which is kind of weird to me. So I’ve had both of those happen to me in English speaking countries. And then we’ve talked about before when I studied abroad in Spain, I had a lot of like chi.
[00:03:38] Jesse Lin: Oh, you’re right, you’re right, you’re right. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I think it’s interesting because a lot of times I think that many people will say that they haven’t encountered. that kind of like racial slur situation, but I don’t think it has to be that severe to be considered racism. Cuz kind of what you were saying was that there’s this other that is happening.
Like you’re put, you’re being put in this like other group and that happens on like a lot of different levels, right? You could be put that in that group because you are. A specific gender or your specific sexual orientation, but I think if you’re being put as an other based off of how you look, your racial characteristics, then that’s racism even.
Even if the person doesn’t want to say that it is, they’re like, oh, I’m not racist. Like I think that we should call a space bait. And like if you’re othering someone based off of characteristics that are typical of a certain race, then you’re being. Yeah, regardless of whether you are saying Ching Chong or any like racial eped or slur or anything like that, like I think that doing something like that is racist.
[00:04:54] Angela Lin: Yeah. Well, and I think in the context of this topic in Asia, cause I think that’s the like kind of angle we’re trying to come at with this. The concept of racism I think is like pretty different. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, because our lens that we’re always coming with is, is the US lens, which is like a very specific way of looking at the world and these kinds of concepts because we are one of the like few countries in the world that is like so, so multicultural.
Mm-hmm. in terms of like being the land of immigrants. Um, having that kind of be our like, Thing. Right. Even though racism still exists and it’s like really depends on where in the country you are, um, what kind of experience you have. Mm-hmm. . But comparing to, we’ve talked about before, like Asia, most countries are homogenous.
They’re like 90 plus percent the same race of people. So the way that racism is expressed is like very different, I would say. Um, and so there were like a couple ways. Break this topic down. The first one is, um, something that a lot of people have heard of, especially if you are Asian, is the idea of colorism.
And I guess this isn’t necessarily just specific to Asian people because I know in the black community there’s definitely. Still some stuff around, you know, and Latino community, a lot of minority communities, right? The lighter skin you are there is kind of like preferential treatment or kind of like pedestal of that, but in the specific context of Asia, Because we, our countries are the ones that are obsessed with like whitening our skin for example.
Like not just if you are born lighter skin, you’re treated better, but like we have like crazy amounts of beauty products that are out in the market that are meant to like physically. Color your skin, white some. Mm-hmm. even have mm-hmm. bleach in them to do that. So there’s this like really big obsession around being as white in color as you can, but it is not really grounded in, uh, Western.
Stuff. So I think this is like where we have to dissect where we come from because I think it’s really easy as like Americans to come at it and be like, oh, look at these Asians. They like idolize white people so that are trying to be white. But colorism is so old of a concept in Asia that like predates European settlement anywhere.
Um, it largely comes. The classist divide of like, were you poor and therefore working out in the fields and therefore tanned and dark, or were you richer in higher society and able to stay indoors without having to do manual labor? and therefore very like light-skinned and pale. So that’s like where it originated from.
And I think it is still largely where this idea of colorism is rooted is more of a class and like socioeconomic thing than like a trying to be white
[00:08:04] Jesse Lin: thing. Hmm. No, I, I think I agree with you. I think there’s plenty of historical context that shows I, I think it’s funny because there’s a lot of parallels.
I would, I would gander to say, The idea of being pale and indoors versus tanned and outdoors largely. It’s the same for Europeans, but I, I agree with you in the sense that it’s probably, it’s, they’re not like, you know, influencing concepts. It’s just kind of like how it also came about in Asia as well.
[00:08:36] Angela Lin: Maybe, although I mean, depending, cuz Europe is broad, right? But like for example, Italians can get really dark in skin and Greek. That’s true. People like a lot of Europeans and they’re not seen as like lower class because they’re tan, for example. Mm-hmm. like even creeping into modern day. Right? Like those types of Europeans.
Aspire to be pretty ta. Oh yeah. It’s like the go tanning versus Asians are still really obsessed with, like, they’ll wear long sleeves, even in like 95 degree weather. Yes. They’ll carry umbrellas. Yes. And like all this crazy shit to avoid being. Tanned. Yeah, I agree. I wanted to just like make sure we like put that aside because that’s like a whole separate thing I think than like traditional racism because it is based more on socioeconomic things.
Mm-hmm. , however, . There’s like a Venn diagram, I think with like the, the racist element as well, which is that then there’s this whole like East Asia versus Southeast Asia versus South Asia thing. Mm-hmm. and like. in, I don’t know when it really started, but like the idea of a lot of Southeast Asians becoming immigrants into East Asia and taking on the more kind of like workforce.
Mm-hmm. Or like, you know, like the manual labor type class. Mm-hmm. folk. Um, and so I think there is a little bit of Venn diagram with like the colorism racism thing in modern day because it is more common, I think. Southeast Asians to be tan. Um, and I do know this is where like people were really getting hot and heated with the, uh, like disputing the different treatment based on the type of Asian you are thing in East Asia where they’re like, nah, Southeast Asians are like explicitly discriminated against in East Asia.
Hmm. Um, so I think there’s a little bit of like both playing with that. Um, it’s. There’s a looking down at the Southeast Asian countries and also there’s probably some colorism like mixed in there just because those, uh, country, the people from those countries are like more likely to be tanned than East Asian folk.
[00:10:49] Jesse Lin: It’s all kind of connected because I think after a certain, while, certain appearance or a certain kind of person can be associated with a specific socioeconomic. , and that can be tied to how the person looks. So for example, I feel like a really prevalent image that comes up to mind for a lot of people is when you talk about the inner city, I think a lot of people will imagine like poor black families.
And so that’s a situation where it’s not even like you’re thinking about racism from the perspective of how the person looks, but you’re thinking about like a socioeconomic setting and you’re filling that in with a specific, like, uh, the way a specific person. .
[00:11:32] Angela Lin: Yeah, that’s what I was saying is that colorism is more tied to socioeconomic.
Okay. Socioeconomic than anything to do with race. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I was saying that when it comes to Southeast Asians in East Asia, there was a crossover because it is both, like they ha they as immigrants within East Asia largely make. a lower socioeconomic class. Yep. And they are more likely to be tan.
Mm-hmm. than, uh, you know, east Asians on like a hole. So that’s all I was saying. I think this is true for a lot of different countries because. I don’t know like where the migration pattern necessarily has gone from like, you know, Southeast Asia into East Asia. But something we’ve like loosely talked about before is like, um, Filipinos for example, are like a big migrant class into Taiwan, which is where our families are from.
Like I specifically remember. Or I know a few people, I think like friends of friends that are like, that have like older, oh, grandparents or whatever, and they have like full-time help that like live with them and they’re Filipino. And my dad has even told me, he is like, when I am like too old to function and like, you know, need like hospice care essentially, he was like, you should just move him back to Taiwan because it’s actually affordable to have full-time help there.
Because essentially you can hire like a Filipino woman. To like live with you. Wow. And just take, it’s like a very common occupation that they have in Taiwan. Yeah.
[00:13:11] Jesse Lin: Yeah. It’s so interesting because, and, and I also don’t know the reason for this, but it’s interesting because we also have a huge class of nurses here that are Filipino.
And I feel like they’re also being brought over in a kind of caretaker situation role. I, I’m like curious why, why that? .
[00:13:30] Angela Lin: Yeah. I have no idea if, if y’all are Filipino. Yeah. Way in here. It seems like medical industry, like caretaking, that kind of stuff is pretty big. Yeah. Um, within those migrant groups.
Yeah. I also just wanted to note that like, um, because I talked about how Southeast Asians, like there’s that crossover of like your, their, they’re more likely to be lower class in socioeconomic class as migrants and also darker, but it’s not like a. Like a fast, what is that term? The hard, hard, and hard and fast.
Hard and fast rule is not a hard and fast rule because somebody has slid into the comments to be like, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because this is why like, um, Lisa from Black Pink, that like Uber famous girl group in K-Pop, um, she’s the Thai. Girl. Yeah. And she’s like super beloved and famous because I was like, I think, I don’t remember who brought up what, but I was like, isn’t she like really beloved?
And like people like love her and stuff, because she’s, I mean, I’m not a, I’m gonna offend all the black pink fans right now, but like for my p o v feels like she has like the most personality because she’s like, she is different and she does the rapping. Mm-hmm. and like, she’s really good at dancing and blah, blah.
Anyways. I thought maybe if you’re like famous, like you kind of get to break out from these like more stereotypical potential forms of discrimination. Um, but no, this, like, this person who I think was Korean like slid in, was like, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because Lisa constantly has fans like yelling slurs at her and like throwing stuff at her on the stage so that they can see jisu the other like full Korean girl.
All Korean girl, cuz Lisa’s not Korean. Wow. And I was like, what the fandom be toxic. I know. So it was a little while to me to hear that even when you are famous, you’re not necessarily able to escape that in a homogenous Asian society I
[00:15:38] Jesse Lin: guess. Yeah, I guess. I mean like I feel like there’s always this outsiderness and I think that’s where.
That’s why we say like racism is so pernicious because there’s never any security, regardless of like where you get. In life. Like I remember maybe like last summer or two summers ago, not like exactly when BLM was like in its peak, but sometime after that, you know, there were like ongoing protests and stuff and the police like arrested a bunch of city council members who were black and, and they were like, we’re city council members we’re here, like legally protesting and they got arrested anyway, so like it really, it just goes to show I.
No matter where your station is, like how far you rise in any direction, there’s still like that, that kind of thing can still happen to you and, and your position, regardless of whether it’s a political position or you have like high economic class, like that doesn’t necessarily change people’s opinion of you based off of how.
[00:16:46] Angela Lin: Yeah, I think that’s largely true. Like you can’t really get rid of what people really feel deep down, right? And how they’re going to act accordingly. However, I do think it is slightly different in the US because like no offense to politicians who may be listening, but like city council members and aren’t like famous people.
You know what I mean? Like, Beyonce and like Michael Jordan and like all the, the people that like really rose to the top of like pop culture in fame are idolized to a degree that their race is not the first thing people consider. So like, I think in the US maybe it’s because we’re so capitalist. I don’t know like where does it come from?
But like, we’re so obsessed with fame. But like I do think when you have broken into the upper echelon of fame and celebrity is the kind of like the only place where you are more able to escape. The more traditional kind of like bullshit that someone of your race might deal with normally? Mm. Because wealth supersedes race in a way.
Sure. Um, but. That’s where it’s like interesting to me that then, like Lisa from Black Pink, who is like one of the most famous people in the world and certainly in Korea, is still treated like this pretty frequently from what that guy was saying. Mm-hmm. on TikTok. Um, so that’s where I’m kinda like, it feels different than it would be in the us.
[00:18:18] Jesse Lin: I wonder that though, because I feel like, I don’t know, like, it’s not like I follow Beyonce. Threads, but I feel like I could imagine there is like a whole part of the internet devoted to hating Beyonce because she’s black or devoted to hating Beyonce because she’s not black enough. I do remember like people poking at her for being like, you’re so, like, that’s a whole other thing.
Yeah, exactly. Like a reverse. That’s a whole other thing. Reverse situation. Yeah.
[00:18:44] Angela Lin: That’s a intraracial thing. That could be a whole other topic, because there’s a whole thing within Asian American community as well with like, yeah, yeah. Dating outside the race is a common thing. Yeah. That gets people pissed off for different reasons, but we’re not getting into it.
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And if you feel so inclined, we’re also accepting donations@buymeiacoffee.com slash Where are you from? Thanks y’all. Um, okay, so racism slash colorism in that respect is the first kind topic. Second topic is something we have talked about a little bit, which is the kind of like being an American born Asian.
Going back to Asia, our experiences, I would say we got like tastes of it, but for example, like neither of us have tried to move back to Taiwan and like live there longer term, so we can’t really speak to that. I did. Meat, you know, quite a few American born Koreans when I was in Korea for those three months.
And I did poke around Reddit to see people’s like, um, experiences. Not the Reddit. The Reddit is the best place I think for like real, I know peoples of opinions, like, where else are you gonna get that unless you like know people. Um, so. is interesting because we have talked about it a little bit, but it’s kind of like when we go back, we are treated as like a different class of people altogether, I would say.
And so actually the, like the shit I was getting on TikTok was related to a clip where I said, when I said I was from the US, no one gave a shit what kind of Asian I was. Um, because they just labeled me as American. So they’re like, whatever American. Mm-hmm. , like move on. Mm-hmm. as opposed to like trying to dig in and be like, oh, but like, what kind of Asian are you?
You know? Like it wasn’t, that’s the one that got people riled up and they’re like, they do care about which Asian you are, but like, but not Americans. So they did. Admit that like Americans get to have like a separate pass almost than like Asians from Asia. Hmm. So for us, I do think it’s kind of like we’re in a weird spot because even though we look like them kind of, right, like some people can argue, like we don’t actually look at like them at all because Koreans style, no.
Asians and Asia. Okay. Like us in Taiwan. Got it. For example, we look like them kind of ethnically we look like them, but we dress differently. All the things that like make us appear different from them. Right. However, they will always look at us as make War American. Mm-hmm. instead of Taiwanese, which is what we ethnically, Taiwanese, Chinese, whatever you wanna say ethnically.
And that’s because I think they focus on nationality more than like, Race per se, and this was actually something I got into like debates with people on TikTok about, which is like, I think people outside of the US do not think about race. They think about nationality and it’s actually why the phrase, which is our podcast name, but where are you really from?
When people ask you, where are you from outside? Uh, the US it’s actually not meant to be an offensive or like microaggression thing. They’re like genuinely curious because they’re asking you where your passport is from, essentially. Hmm. They’re asking you like where you grew up. So like when I say I Oh us, they’re not, oh, you know, We can argue about this because in Europe sometimes then they go like, not really, but like in Asia for example, when I was like the us, they’re like, oh, where in the us?
They’re not like, no, really? Where? Where? What kind of Asian are you, right? Mm-hmm. . I was like, I’d be like California or whatever, and they’re like, oh, that’s cool. So they’re asking about nationality. So like when Taiwanese people see us, and they’re like, you’re not Taiwanese. They’re like, you are American.
And it’s because it’s like that’s the country that they associate you with based on where you grew up, how you act, how you talk, all these things that like shape the kind of person you have become.
[00:23:28] Jesse Lin: I think that’s interesting because it, for me, it brings to a question of. The whole idea of that as a microaggression is super contextual, right?
Because like, we’re kind of like, well, when people ask you that question here in the states, you’re kinda like, well, what makes you assume that I wasn’t born here? Versus like when people ask you that in Taiwan, for example, I, we don’t interrogate that intent. We interrogate that intent differently, I think, than here, which is kind of interesting.
And I, I’ve never really thought. Why, other than the fact that I know that I don’t, wasn’t raised here. So then the question is no longer offensive for me versus like in the States. I’m like, I was raised here. So it’s offensive that you would assume that I’m not. That’s
[00:24:14] Angela Lin: exactly it is that we come into it knowing we are a foreigner to, in some respects, so we don’t.
Expect any sort of like delusion of them being like, oh, I thought you were from here, or whatever, you know? Um, I think it would be different from like, we’re we, like I said, we didn’t try to like, Immigrate back to one of these Asian countries. So like if, for example, I did try to like move back to Taiwan and it had been like three years living there.
I like changed the way I dress. I got lighter from not being out in the sun. All these things, my Chinese got like way better. And then they still were being like, you know, no, you’re not really from here. Then that’s probably at the point where you’d get like pretty offended, right? So it is different because we’re not coming from the mindset of like, I’ve tried really hard to integrate and you’re not accepting me.
It’s like, no, I, I don’t actually, I’m not from here. So I don’t expect you to think I am.
[00:25:12] Jesse Lin: I also, I also maybe feel like, and I’m interested in what your, what your thoughts are on this, but I feel like the intention is a little bit different. I feel like a lot of. When that question is asked here, there’s this like underlying, this underlying feeling that the question is just like, you don’t belong versus like when people ask you there, I think they still recognize that you are an Asian person.
Like they’re not denying that you’re an Asian person. They just know that you didn’t grow up in this country like that you weren’t here. Um, versus like there’s some almost denial that you could be an American, you know,
[00:25:52] Angela Lin: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I kind of agree with you, but I just think, like I said, I don’t think race is much of a lens that people outside of the US as specifically, I’m talking about YHA right now.
Yeah. But like, I don’t think that’s really the lens that they look at us with. So like, . It’s actually interesting because once I went down the rabbit hole of Reddit, right, some people were saying some things. I was like, oh, this actually, this makes all of sense. And it like confirms some things I’ve heard from other people, which is like, You know, we in the US because we constantly have this feeling of like otherness, like people questioning whether we’re really from here and if we really belong.
This environment is the only reason why Asians of all these different countries have like formed this sense. Similarity and like unity with each other despite being from like our families being from different countries. Mm-hmm. versus Asians in Asia do not feel that kinship with each other. Mm-hmm. like Koreans and Japanese people, and Chinese people and Thai people and all these other countries do not look at each other and be like, Hey, we’re like buddies because we are all.
Asian appearing. Yeah. They’re like, no, you’re not Korean. You’re not my friend. Uh, like there’s a reason why. for example, like old Asian people had immigrated to the us um, that like still mostly speak their language and like stick with their kind of communities. Don’t intermix really with like other, yeah.
It’s not like you’re gonna see some like old Vietnamese grandma hanging with like an old Korean grandma sel. That’s not really seldom they. ? Yes. Very seldom I would say. So that’s more what it’s like in Asia. So I don’t think they look at us and they’re like, Hey buddy, like the only. Reason they might look at you like that is if they actually thought, if they did mistake you for like one of their kind of Asian, so like if they thought I was actually Korean, that would be like a different thing than if they’re just saw me and they’re like, oh, other Asian.
Yeah. Like that’s not really a reason to feel any kinship towards you. Got
[00:28:14] Jesse Lin: it. I mean, I think that does make sense. I mean, I feel like, yeah, here everyone sees all Asians as like this amor. Group, but obviously in Asia, all the Asians know that they’re different and , many of them have had very contentious histories in terms of terrible things that they did to one another.
So I’m sure that aside from, I think aside from the colorism aspect, there is racism in a sense, but maybe it’s not so prevalent because there aren’t necessarily large populations of each Asian. Populace in different Asian countries, if that makes sense.
[00:28:53] Angela Lin: Yeah. I think. . That’s exactly, it is like the history of relations that these countries have had with each other is like what dominates kind of prevailing thought.
Mm-hmm. around how they feel about the other, like Asian groups versus for us in America at least being like American born, especially. , we are not weighted down by that baggage because we weren’t that close. Yeah. To like any atrocities committed. Yeah. By other, you know, people from other countries. We, what we know is our experience here, which is like, well, we have all these, like other people telling us we don’t belong and grouping us together.
So like this is why we feel a kinship and like a unity with disparate groups of Asian folks. Mm-hmm. . versus in Asia. Yeah. It’s like long standing that like certain countries kind of hate each other. Yeah. And like they are more suspicious of like the tourists of that nation or immigrants of that nation.
Mm-hmm. . And it ties again, back to, I think it’s largely nationalism. So like what your passport is. Mm-hmm. and therefore you’re like the country that you’re associated with. And less race per se. So, yeah.
[00:30:12] Jesse Lin: Interesting. Okay. I, I have to, I kind of like, I have, I kind of agree with you and I’m like, but don’t you think that is racism?
Like, because Okay. My experience has also been, I’ve never, I don’t think I’ve ever been in any way anything said to or looked a certain way because I appear a certain kind of Asian while traveling through Asia now. I haven’t travel. Many areas of Asia. Asia, like I think Singapore and Thailand mostly, and of course Taiwan.
So I don’t really have like a huge swath of experience. But wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you say that like the atrocities, I, I guess like the history of the countries creates this idea that this specific kind of Asian who appears a certain way portrays. aspects or is like the manifestation of all these bad things, even though the current generation of people there probably have nothing to do with all of the things that have happened in the past, but people still have this concept of who a Japanese person is or who a Chinese person is based off of kind of the historical relationships between the.
[00:31:25] Angela Lin: Yes, I agree with that. Um, the only reason I think it’s different is that they’re homogenous countries. It’s just like, it’s like a to, it’s just a different context. Mm-hmm. , because it’s kind of the, like, more analogous thing would be if, if the US were still like predominantly dominated by Aryan White people.
Mm-hmm. and like we were. Minor. It was like 90% Arian white people, and we are like the other 10% and like being treated differently. That’s, it’s, it’s not an excuse. It’s more just like, it’s important context to keep in mind. It’s just like all these countries don’t have a lot of immigrants, right? Like these people are treated poorly.
Um, but a lot of it is because literally like the. Is like 90 plus percent one specific type of person and blood in that country. Yeah. So it’s not, I’m not saying they don’t know any better. I’m not like giving it that kind of pass. Yeah. It’s just like it’s harder to move against that tide when like everyone around you is mostly.
Thing. Yeah. Um, versus like here, when we talk about the concept of minority, it’s like, it’s a kind of like confusing topic to use that word because it, from like a statistic standpoint, like people of color are no longer necessarily like a minority. Mm-hmm. in terms of being like 10% of the country or 20% of the country.
Um, it’s more just, we have a lot of other baggage that makes that term. It’s correct meaning. Yeah. Um, but I guess I didn’t actually, I didn’t look this word up. It, I should have, but ahead of time. I think the, like last topic, it’s creeping into the last topic here is like, , this idea of xenophobia and the foreigner concept in Asia.
Mm-hmm. being different than in the US for example. Mm-hmm. . So like xenophobia. I don’t really know what the difference is between that and like, I guess racism towards field that aren’t your own race. Like, is that really what xenophobia means? I don’t know. Um, but that’s, for example, a term that is like common.
Used to describe Japan, unfortunately. Um, and I think a lot of East Asian countries because again, we’re all like homogenous back there. Um, and it is kind of interesting that like, because these countries are dominated by. Mostly one homogenous like group of people. Mm. They view everyone else as this term foreigner, , which is like, from a US perspective, it’s like kind of offensive, but like, but it’s just like the it, it’s not coming with any like baggage or anything necessarily from these Asian countries, but like literally when you land, for example, and you go to a passport, like the passport stamping, it’s like foreigner.
Yeah, it’s like foreigner line and like, you know, country that it is line.
[00:34:20] Jesse Lin: So then I would probably say maybe like, and I don’t know if it’s the case for all countries, but I think maybe a good example and, and of course I don’t really know. the current situation in Taiwan. But a good example would be maybe if there’s still racial discrimination against like the indigenous population that used to live there.
Because I imagine it’s like a small percent, probably like five to 10%. Not anything more than that, but obviously that there’s, I think there’s some bad history there of. Them being subjugated by Han Chinese people. So I, I, but I don’t know what the current state of how people will feel about or associate certain things with them are.
[00:35:04] Angela Lin: Yeah, I think that’s fair. And I don’t know how much we wanna get into that, but I would agree that kind of the largest form. , I’m gonna call it discrimination because it kind of like falls under different reasons. Not necessarily race being like the number one thing, but yes, totally native people kind of like, let’s just say all over the world, are like constantly just trying to be like stamped out.
Um, and Taiwan is no different. China also has a ton of different groups of people, ethnic groups. Yeah. Yes. And a lot of times, Sometimes it’s ethnic, sometimes it’s religious based, you know, is more the discrimination, um, or like trying to. , uh, homogenize, the, the, these like different mm-hmm. diverse groups that exist.
That I would say is probably like the biggest form of discrimination that exists in these countries. And it is interesting because the, the main reason this stuff happens is because their aim is to homogenize Yeah. The country. Which is super interesting. Yeah. From my perspective. Um, The foreigner thing is something that I wanted to talk about because it, yeah, it’s weird because it’s kind of like if you’re not born of their blood, , you are deemed a foreigner and it doesn’t really matter what race you are.
So like we are foreigners to, to people in Korea, we’re foreigners. Mm-hmm. to people in China even, even though we’re like Chinese. Yeah. You know? Um, and there are discriminatory laws and social things that try to keep foreigners out or make it very difficult for them to become permanent residents or citizens, things like that.
So like on. But I also did hear this from like legit people, that I met in Korea. Um, like I met some white people that have like lived there for like 15 years and have like spouses in Korea and stuff, and they’re like, it’s. Been a nightmare trying to like, be trying to like live here and like integrate because there are all these laws making it so difficult for you to like submit the right paperwork and like prove this thing and like, it’s not enough to be married.
You have to like do all these other things like prove why you should be here. Mm-hmm. and it, and then in Reddit I was reading people because Japan is notorious for trying to. Keep everyone out. It’s not Japanese. Um, that someone posted the stat that, I don’t know what the most recent stat was, but they were basically like Japan is one of the countries that accepts like the least number of immigrants around the world, like every year.
Mm-hmm. Like one year it was like 16 immigrants, . Oh my gosh. I hear you’re so sad. Yeah. They like literally don’t take anyone. and yeah, someone posted, they were like, yeah, I’ve lived here for, in Japan for like 15, 20 years or something. And he is like, foreigners are literally required by law to carry their like foreigner resident card with them and can be fined like a bunch of money if a.
Officer stops you and you’re, you don’t have your card on you and you are just like randomly stopped all the time to like show your resident card thing. So it’s like, it’s super interesting because it’s like, and again, that’s why I was like, what does the N F O really mean? I should’ve like looked this up, but it, it’s like a very specific context I think compared to like the us it’s just like, feels like racism, but it’s also this like whole different thing because we are the ones.
the other people are the ones coming into these like super homogenized societies. Yeah. And
[00:38:45] Jesse Lin: I don’t know, I, I think I, I have a similar, well, not my personal experience, but I remember a couple years ago when I went to a friend’s wedding, the groom, it was, is Taiwanese, and one of his cousins was there and she was telling us about how she had been working in Japan.
She was Taiwanese, so she, she from Taiwan. So she was like, she’d been working from Japan for like a year and she’s like, I hate it. Like I am always treated. Like an outsider, like people don’t like listen to the things that I have to say. And yeah, I, I think it’s, it’s not racism in the sense, I, I think like exactly what you’re saying.
It’s not racism in the sense that it is in the US where there have been multiple different ethnic groups living there for a while. It’s kind of, but in a sense it still is because there’s like a group of people that are keeping a group of people. Out just based off of the fact that they are not a specific ethnic appearance and background.
[00:39:48] Angela Lin: Yeah, and and more of the things I heard, which I’ve. I’ve seen a lot of actually watching like TikTok and whatever of people who live abroad who are like foreigners and they’re like, yeah, people. Japan is notorious, but it has happened apparently in like Hong Kong and other places too. Yeah, it’s like on public transportation, for example, like.
People will get up if like a foreigner sits next to them, or like someone talked about how they were like, it was like a packed subway train in Japan, like literally like butt to butt. People like standing and she was sitting down and there was an empty seat next to her, and literally nobody would sit down.
Next to her because she is foreigner, which is like, just like crazy stuff. Yeah. Because it feels like very segregationy, uh, like Oh yeah. It’s just flashing back to like sixties time for us or like pre sixties time for us. So really interesting.
[00:40:41] Jesse Lin: Shall we move to the Fortune cookie clothes? Because we always like to end on a sweet treat.
I think we’re gonna bring out. Specula Globe or the crystal Ball to try to imagine a future where racism is different in Asian countries because of how the world is continuously globalizing. People are traveling between different countries and living there. Angela, what do you think? Do you think. There will be different treatment of outside groups in Asian countries in the future?
[00:41:17] Angela Lin: I think so. Mm-hmm. , but I don’t think it’s going to happen very soon, or have big changes happen quickly. Mm-hmm. like I think it’s gonna take a long time and it’s not gonna be much change compared to like, I don’t think any of these countries are gonna become the next us, for example, in terms of like aspiring to be.
known as the melting pot. Mm-hmm. . However, I will say, I think there are like many factors that are driving it towards encouraging these countries to have more immigrants make up more of their population. One big thing is that they’re all becoming more and more capitalists. Money, money, money, money talks, man money.
And with remote work having become more of a thing, um, since the pandemic. people are kind of like flocking to a ton of different countries to try to find a better place to live for better standard of living, um, if they can do the same jobs. Right. So that’s one element. Um, the other element is, uh, it’s actually quite interesting.
A lot of these Asian countries have declining fertility rates. Mm-hmm. . So if they don’t accept immigrants, their population is just gonna keep declining. Japan is one of them, right? Japan is the worst one. Yeah. Because they also have so many freaking old people, so it’s like really not good for them because their young people are just like, I don’t wanna get married, I don’t want to have kids.
It’s like the So they’re like not gonna be anymore. No. That’s very traumatic to say that there’s not gonna be any word Japanese fuel in the future, but, Like slowing down quite a bit. Yeah, so I, I’m seeing, you know, because obviously we are trying to live in Japan for a few months, so we’ve been kind of staying close to different visas that we could apply for, and Japan is like notoriously incredibly slow and kind of like red tapey with.
Their, uh, laws for letting in people, like I’ve mentioned, but they are trying things like they are starting to set up things for, like startups, for example, or like entrepreneurs. Hmm. To try to lull or not lull them to try to like lure uh, bait them. Yeah. Lure them into the country. It’s not as easy as you would hope it would be, but it’s obviously that they’re, it’s obvious that they’re trying.
So I think it is gonna be a lot of. Stumbling through that, and a lot of more like wishful thinking than actually making it easier for people, uh, to come into their countries. But I think there are enough signs that like they’re seeing the potential and like upside to have new different people coming in at least to help their economies and their kind of like, Dying.
Not dying populations, but like slowing populations point. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s probably gonna be worth it for them to at least like get used to the idea of having more immigrants come in. Hmm. What do you think?
[00:44:12] Jesse Lin: I, I agree. I think like there are a lot of systemic things in place that bar outsiders from coming in and being successful.
So one of the examples was at my last. Our company was pretty small and we were trying to break into the Japanese market, and the local people who were working there were basically like, it’s nearly impossible because it’s all BA based off of relationships. And if you’re not like a Japanese person born there, it’s like.
you’re not even gonna get a meeting. And it’s crazy because Japan has its own, has basically like its own everything like line. I think Yahoo is still the top search engine in Japan. Like so there’s like a lot of different things there where kind of what you were saying, like because they don’t want to be known as the melting pot, they don’t care about that.
They want to like maintain their cultural heritage and homogenous. There are a lot of things like there that are very difficult to change or overturn, but I do agree with you. I think the economic realities is just going to bring about that change because as more people are brought in from different.
racial backgrounds from different socioeconomic backgrounds and become a larger component of the population, the laws are gonna have to change to reflect the needs of the people who are becoming a larger part of the population. Um, so I do think that, that I, that that change will come, but probably will be really slow.
[00:45:43] Angela Lin: Agreed. All right. Um, well, let us know what you guys think in the comments of wherever you’re watching this, especially if you are from outside of the US because we always love hearing your opinions because I think we always. Get pretty narrow minded with our points of view having grown up and lived, uh, in the us.
So please let us know what you think and come back next week because we’ll have a fresh episode for you then.