Angela Lin 0:21
Today we’re talking about loneliness culture. Basically, how do we see being alone in the US or the more Western contexts versus in Asia, because I do think even the word choice of like, whether you’re saying you’re alone, or you’re lonely, is kind of like dependent on which cultural context you’re using. Because you don’t have to be lonely just because you’re alone. So let’s just like open it up, at like the broad level, I think, for me, when I think about the difference between a Western versus Eastern or at least specific Eastern countries like Japan, in the West, we’re all very codependent on each other kind of in that, like, it’s more abnormal to at least be out in public by yourself. So I think there’s a there’s also like a separate difference between recognizing the need to like, have you time because I think that’s become very popular in Western culture recently. It’s like, I need me time and like self care, right? Which are things that you do in the privacy of your home, largely. So like, there’s a difference between being by yourself and like recharging in like a private setting versus like, being by yourself out in the world where other people can see you. So for me, I feel like in the West, if you’re by yourself outside in public, it’s largely seen as like, kind of sad, like, oh, why is that person like by themselves? Like I always think of, remember that movie, Forgetting Sarah Marshall? And they’re like, Jason, fuck, What is his name? What’s the actor’s name? Marshall from home at your mother? Guy? The main guy the movie? He’s like, yeah, anyways, the main guy in movies, like, in, in restaurant in the hotel, right? And he’s like, hey, table for one and Jonah Hill’s character…
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 2:33
..is just screaming it…
Angela Lin 2:34
Yeah, like rip’s him a new one and the screaming to the back of house being like, just one he’s by himself so sad. Like, I feel like that’s like the inner feelings that a lot of people have. Whether, whether that’s what people actually think when they see a person by themselves, or if it’s just like the person by themselves thinking that that’s what everyone’s thinking about them, if that makes sense.
Jesse Lin 2:59
I think it’s a little bit of both right? And it also depends kind of where you are like, I feel like when you’re maybe like in the morning going to get coffee. I feel like most people are like I don’t want to be, I want to be by myself. But like, if you’re having lunch, like at a cafe by yourself, I feel like a lot of people will be like, what’s up with that? And I, I do think it’s changed. It’s definitely become, at least from my perspective, more acceptable for people to be eating lunch by themselves. Because let’s face it, like when you live in a giant city full of like a bajillion people, like you’re not always going to be able to hang out with someone because there’s like so many other choices for other people to hang out with. Plus, like if you’re new, you won’t have anyone to hang out with. And then finally, like you don’t, I feel like since it’s become more acceptable. More people are engaging in it and realizing that they like having a meal by themselves and not being like, encumbered by other people or being like, oh, Angela, where do you want to go eat today? Well, I’m feeling like healthy but I don’t want a salad. I mean, you’re just like, can you kill me like pick a place like I just want to go eat somewhere. And so you don’t have to do that when you’re by yourself.
Angela Lin 4:57
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I feel like there are you’re right that the, the notion is changing. I don’t think it’s like fully changed where we’re like, every time you see this person by themselves, you’re like, you’re strong, independent, blah, blah. For me, let’s talk about like us, I guess, because I think this is something I struggle with a lot. And like, I have been changing over the years, where I’m trying to tell myself like, it’s okay to be by yourself. Like it really, you don’t need to be with someone else, just because you’re in public. And it’s something I’ve been trying to tell myself, I still feel really self conscious when I’m just like, by myself, and I think it’s a it’s a me problem for sure. Because it’s like, you know, it’s everyone always thinking everything’s about them, like no one else cares about you, you’re gonna mean like, they’re, they’re like living their lives, and like, they’re having conversations of their own, or like, they have their own thoughts in their heads and like, they don’t care that much about you. Versus like, I’m sitting there being like, oh, my God, everyone must be paying attention to how I’m alone. I’m like, how sad I am that I have no friends, like, no one cares.
Jesse Lin 6:12
So but like, with which context are you in that used to bother you the most?
Angela Lin 6:20
Yes. So great question. I think I’m specifically speaking of when you have like leisure time. So like when you are at a long lunch by yourself, or you’re like grabbing a drink in a bar by yourself, or you are watching a movie by yourself like, these are all things I have done before. But I feel very self conscious about when I’m doing it.
Jesse Lin 6:50
That’s really interesting. Partially because my experience is, I don’t think I’ve ever done any of those things by myself. And I don’t know if it’s because I feel self conscious, or because I am a giant homebody. So I’m like, I don’t want to do those things outside. Like, I’ll do that at home. Like, I would rather be in my PJs, drinking, whatever, watching a movie at home than outside. So I’m not sure actually, I need to try that when all this is over goes.
Angela Lin 7:22
I think it’s worth trying.
Jesse Lin 7:23
Yeah. But we’ll see. I’ll have to try it. I do remember this one time. They’re probably like handful of other times, and they just don’t remember it. Because you know, it just wasn’t particularly memorable. But I remember this one specific instance, where I went to a coffee shop. It’s a small chain of coffee shops called cafe grumpy. If you follow me on Instagram and ever seen my orange coffee cup with the frowny face on it that’s where it’s from. And my therapist in college was like telling me, because I was telling him like, I was nervous about meeting people and like didn’t know how to do that. And he was like, oh, here’s some homework, like, go to a coffee shop and just like, hang out there and see if you could meet anyone. I didn’t end up meeting anyone. But we just hung out there for a little bit and was fine. Yeah.
Angela Lin 8:10
Yeah. Well, you know what, and then there’s, there’s also upside sometimes to being by yourself, because there’s also an instance that I remember where so in San Francisco, there’s a really popular restaurant called dumpling time. That’s like, it’s, it’s run by like, hip, probably, like first generation, Chinese people. But they have like, straight up like legit Chinese grandmas and grandpas, like making the dumplings in the windows and stuff. But anyways, um, it’s super hip, and it has like long lines all the time. And I think I was just killing time before meeting with Ramon or something. And I, I bought like an early dinner, so I didn’t have to wait. And I just sat by myself. Yeah. And they gave me better service because I was on myself. That’s what I felt like, because they were kind of like, it was almost unspoken, that they’re like, oh, respect that, like, you’re gonna, you’re eating by yourself in this place that’s usually about like being in like, huge social setting. And like, it seems like you don’t care about all that. And like, I’ve seen you around before. So I guess you know, you’re just here to like, do your own thing. So I feel like they took better care for me.
Jesse Lin 9:26
I feel like well, let’s talk about because we’re also kind of contrasting like, East versus West. Like, I kind of feel like when I’m thinking about loneliness, in the context of my family. What comes to the surface immediately is how my parents are always like, your family’s always gonna be your family. And that’s always going to be there for you. And that’s always made me feel like in a way that the experience of loneliness is not the same because there’s always this idea that like you’re never alone like you’re always backed by these family members no matter like if you’re you know screwing up your life or you moved across the country or whatever like these people will always be like your blood kin and that’s how i’ve always felt about loneliness from their perspective because i can’t imagine and we’ve talked a lot about this like rethinking the perspective of our parents moving here like i can’t imagine how lonely that really was that whole experience coming here and really once they’re here like they don’t they didn’t really have any friends for like a really long time it was just like my mom my dad and like the family so i’ve always thought about it as like they don’t think about or experience loneliness in the same way because they have like this like the family in the family will always be there for you
Angela Lin 10:59
i think that’s an interesting thing to bring up because this isn’t specifically about loneliness but i guess it’s related so broadly what you’re speaking to is like there’s always a community like a built in community for you right and ramon talks about that a lot because it’s also the case in europe where like you are always with your family and like your people you grew up with you probably lived with like stay the people that you know into your adult life you’re just like not a lot of people kind of leave so it always feels like it’s a community and you’re kind of like surrounded by this warmth and he was brings it up because when we look at like well previously we talked about city life and like how home homelessness in San Francisco is one of like the major reason major problems here and he always brings up like you know there’s a reason why homelessness is not really a thing in Europe so much and certainly not in Spain where he’s from and he’s like because people don’t like give up on their families there. Which is like a sad way to look at it but it’s kind of true because like if and it’s the same in asia you don’t see a ton of homeless people out there in at least in like very developed like first world you know cities but the people that are homeless is because they have like no one else right like or they they have family but they’ve chosen not to like that family has chosen not to take care of this person. So it’s just an interesting thing to tie back i guess because I guess there is this difference and like how important and how concrete this is this built in community of family in the west versus in the east or Europe.
Jesse Lin 12:50
Yeah, yeah no i definitely feel that and when you’re saying that like that’s that’s kind of how i feel about loneliness in general like from like western mindset versus eastern mindset is that from a western mindset the loneliness is just your problem from that eastern mindset like it’s kind of like the problem of the community in a sense of your community it doesn’t just belong to you and we’ve talked about the whole like collectivist versus like individualistic perspectives or attitudes towards specific things and i think this is one of them. But interestingly enough i kind of feel like in both societies it’s something that’s not very i don’t know it’s not taken like not taken seriously or not given like not given the weight that it can be on a person’s life in terms of how people address it. Because i kind of feel like when people you know obviously before like Coronavirus when people are like oh i’m lonely you’re just like well you know kind of deal with that everybody’s lonely and like it’s kind of just like downplayed and i also feel like the same way with with our culture as well especially like it’s just not something that my parents ever really talked about so they’re both well
Angela Lin 14:11
I think those are two separate things so yes for those listening we’re talking about pre COVID because everyone i think everyone has like knowledge that loneliness is a next level problem now that everyone is alone but i think the parents thing is different like parents wouldn’t acknowledge it because in asian culture you don’t talk about your feelings and you don’t talk about when you’re hurt so like why would you talk about being lonely and yu just suck it up and like don’t talk about it so i think that’s separate bBu i agree it is downplayed in terms of like the toll it can have on mental health and stuff in both societies the interesting thing though is so we brought up we’re doing compare and contrast right? i think in asia it is seen differently though, in that, like, in in the US, at least we were talking about, you know, varying degrees of like pity, I guess that you you may feel for someone who’s like by themselves instead of with friends, which is the most common way you see people out in public. And versus in Asia, at least in Japan, because that’s my most recent Asian experience where I was living there. It’s very acceptable, and like, almost the defaults, that they assume you’re alone, because it’s actually you can see it in the design of like cafes and restaurants and stuff, they have more solo tables, like the ones that either see one or one or max two people, they have way more of those tables then like, seated for four or four plus. And like, there’s that ramen shop that I love ichibaban and, but, or no, sorry, ichiran, but they have, they have like those, the default is that every person is in this like siloed seating space by themselves. And so there’s like a wall between you and the next person in between your stools. And then the way you get your ramen is like you, you like many ramen shops, you first like put money into a machine when you enter and then you get a ticket. But then the way you actually get your ramen is like you’re sitting at your stool, and then this, like, they know that someone sat down. So then in front of you is this like, window, and it’s closed. But then once you sit down and like opens halfway and you see like hands, then they are like talking to you in Japanese essentially be like, give me your ticket. And then they take your ticket, and then they close it again. And you’re just like by yourself until your ramen’s ready. And then they like open the window and like push the push the bowl in front of you, and you’re just like by yourself in your little cubicle eating your ramen. And unless you want, then if you’re with friends, you can like lift the wall between the two stools to like, be with each other. But the default is being by yourself because they expect people to be by themselves. And that was like a total, totally different way to look at like public space, I guess. And like how acceptable It is to be by yourself. That like kind of shook me when I was when I first got there.
Jesse Lin 17:36
Well, I think part of what we also maybe wanted to touch on was kind of what you already discussed, which is that there’s like a economy kind of built around this in Japan, it’s more visible because of what you’re saying they have like actual physical arrangements for single people usage. But in fact, I think globally, there are like many different ways this is playing out in terms of how capitalism is coming to service, these lonely people. So you could talk about I think more about Japan, but I’ve definitely seen like a rise of a bunch of different services that are like, kind of like rent a friend services, it’s almost like getting your own therapist, but you just have like, you rent the person for an hour. And they like, go shopping with you, or they hang out with you. And I think it’s like, it fills a need, like a gap for people who are like very often super busy, like they’re working a lot or what have you, and they just don’t have time to make social connections. And so people engage these services to try to like, fill that hole, which I find like, I just find it’s really interesting. Like it’s very practical, but I don’t know how I feel about that necessarily. Like I don’t know if that’s good for that person or bad or like, how that’s yeah.
Angela Lin 19:02
I agree. I agree. I it’s a double edged sword because it like it does fulfill a need that they have to not be lonely, right and to and to, I don’t know, not feel awkward in situations like so I’ll get into the more like common things I saw in Japan later. But what you said about like renting a friend, right? Like, you can literally rent a person to do anything with you, like go to a wedding as your date and like, yeah, and actually I remember watching, there was this really good Vice show with Elliot Page and his gay best friend a long time ago – Gaycation. Like several years back..
Jesse Lin 19:44
Is it that old already?
Angela Lin 19:45
Yes, it is. appalling. I know. But I remember their Japan episode they met up with a young gay man there and he was coming out to his family and he rented a friend to join him for the conversation. It was super weird because the guy was like, I mean, he was very supportive and smiling the whole time. But he’s just like, I don’t know you. And I’m just here to like, give you moral support while you’re having this like momentous situation with your family. So yeah, you can rent people to do anything. So yes, there is, I can see the positive and a in that, you know, you really don’t have a friend or family that like can fill that need for you, then having anyone that you feel like is like on your side is going to, you know, bring positivity into your life. But at the same time, I think I agree with you that like, I don’t know that that’s the best thing for that person in the long run. Because I think one of the things I think is challenging with the fact that there is this whole economy around feeding into loneliness culture is that then you are training these people to never have to learn, you know, socialization habits, and how to interact with people in a non monetary like just normal way of like making friends or like picking up a girl or guy at the bar, you know, like, normal things that should happen without taking out your wallet. It’s yeah, I don’t know how I feel about it in the long run.
Jesse Lin 21:21
Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. Basically, like, how can you ever learn how to make friends if you never put in the work to do that? Because it, honestly, like, why people don’t have a lot of friends, is because it is a lot of work to make new friends. Like it takes a lot of time. You have to manifest like a lot of energy. Like I know, for me, like last year, it was like a huge push for me to be like, I want to make more gay friends and I want to meet more, meet new people. And, you know, it worked out I met new people, and I made some new friends. But God, it was so exhausting. I was like, I am tired. Yeah, I love these new people. But I’m very tired. Like.
Angela Lin 22:00
I feel you. I also feel like as you get older, it becomes less, it’s not as easy to meet people. Because you’re not in this like built in social setting where it’s normal to be meeting people so like your entire school system is like a normal time where you’re around a bunch of people and you’re like expected to make friends. And when you exit schooling, and you’re just out in the world, it is very hard. Like you have your work, you have your work people. And then like that’s kind of it that’s really only like built in peeps. So like I remember, business school, my MBA being almost like a second, second chance at like making adult friends. Yeah. Because it’s like, oh, there’s I have to make friends. And like everyone’s on the same playing field of like, we’re all awkward and by ourselves. So we have to make friends with each other. And like now I have, you know, some of my best friends are the ones I made in business school. But like, if I didn’t have that experience, I would have had, you know, way fewer new friends to your point because what we’re what I’ve met these people or like, and and people just aren’t as receptive to like random people coming up to them outside of like, some sort of introductory context, you know?
Jesse Lin 23:25
Yeah. So I think that, I think do we talk about like the impact of the problem, because I did want to like, I did want to touch on that, because I don’t know how many people are aware how serious it is, or like how wide it is. But I was reading this excerpt from this book called The Lonely Century: Coming Together in a World That’s Pulling Apart, which is really just featured on our website so I was just reading this excerpt. And the excerpt was saying basically, that even before Coronavirus, happened, and everyone was forced into their own individual space, which would, you know, would normally cause people who might not have been lonely to be lonely, that there was already kind of this rise of people reporting more loneliness than usual. So the article said that three in five US adults considered themselves lonely. One in two Australians felt lonely at least one day a week. In Europe, Germany, two thirds of the population believed that loneliness is a serious problem. A third of Dutch nationals admitted to being lonely one in 10, severely so. And in Sweden, a quarter of the population said that they were frequently lonely. So I think that there’s like a general wave of it. And I think Corona made some people that normally weren’t lonely lonely, but I think for the majority of people, it just kind of exacerbated problems that were already there and maybe they were just patching it somehow or just getting through with the random or odd social interaction, but definitely, I think it’s been, it’s like a growing problem. And it’s growing everywhere, not just here or in Asia or here Asia, Europe.
Angela Lin 25:20
Yes. Did the article say why it was growing?
Jesse Lin 25:25
Um, that is a good question. I don’t believe that there was a specific reason. They did go into some interesting solutions. So they mentioned that in South Korea, there’s like these colatecs, which is short for Cola, plastic discotheques. And it’s for old people, so that they can, they can have fun together, not at a senior center. So and they were saying that this is actually really fun for a lot of the older Koreans, because the entry for these is very cheap. And a lot of elderly Koreans are, it says that they experienced some of the highest rates of poverty in the world for their age group. So it’s like a way for them to connect that’s not like senior center or just like sitting around the park or something like that. It’s like some kind of interesting activity.
Angela Lin 26:25
All right, so for bringing it back to a higher note. Within the context of being alone, we wanted to share our respective favorite experiences while being alone.
Jesse Lin 26:40
Okay, so my one experience of being alone, that was fantastic. fantabulous was traveling for work. And I know you already mentioned like, this kind of doesn’t count. But like, I flew back from Brazil to New York. And because the company had paid a higher rate for the fare, the airlines basically was like, if you want to buy upgrades, you can buy an upgrade to business class for $500. And I was like, this is like my one and only chance in my life to fly business class for $500. I’m like, I’ll do it. And it was amazing. I sat in my seat by myself, and did everything by myself like didn’t talk to anyone, and like, fell asleep for the entire thing. It was awesome. So good. And then activity wise, like, I, I kind of feel like through the COVID situation. And I’m and I already mentioned, I’m generally kind of a homebody, so I kind of normally like doing stuff by myself or like vegetating by myself. So it hasn’t been like that challenging. But I do say that something new that I did during COVID was to go out on runs by myself, which is really, really soothing. Like, it’s just nice, it’s like a nice way to see the city, like unwind if you’ve had a stressful day. You know, the added benefit of having a workout built in, but mostly, it was just like time for me to be with my thoughts. Half the time. And then the other 50% of the time was just to not think about anything at all, which is lovely. What about you?
Angela Lin 28:20
I don’t know that I have like a specific distinct memory, like that kind of experience. But I guess I’ll speak to pre COVID and during COVID, pre-COVID and I’ll caveat that I was still self conscious. Leading up to but one of my goals which I’ve been very bad about carrying through is one of my goals when I moved back to California was to learn how to skateboard.
Jesse Lin 28:49
Girl it’s dangerous to do that in SF.
Angela Lin 28:52
It is dangerous dude. And unless you find the right spot, and so I haven’t skateboarded in over a year. So it’s just sitting in the closet and Ramon’s like when are you gonna throw it this way. But when I still lived in my old apartment, and we were like a 15 minute walk from Golden Gate Park, I really liked on Sundays, they closed down a full mile stretch of the park to cars, so there’s no cars, you it’s all pedestrian. So like you can run, skateboard, bike in the street instead of having to be on the sidewalk. So I would take my board to Golden Gate Park and skate just that stretch. And like I was very bad, but I didn’t fall ever. But it was very freeing because I would like put in music. You know I’d put in earbuds and then I just skate and there’s good stretches where it’s like semi downhill so I just be like gliding for you know a good 30 seconds which like groovin to my music i’m like this is so free but at the same time i’m like self conscious because i’m like oh my god i’m so bad i’m gonna fall at any moment and people are like staring at me because they kind of were though sometimes because my board was really loud it was like it wasn’t smooth street was like gravelly so it’s like loud while i’m going through this i’m like if people are gonna look i better not fall i was self conscious about the same time when i had those like moments of zen it was like very nice and freeing. During COVID i am really blessed hashtag blessed that we were able to switch apartments during this time to a place that has balcony so i can get sun and so one of my favorite things is literally just sitting out there and like soaking in vitamin d so like i’m still not like great about i’m still on my phone or whatever but i’m just like i’m there to get exposure to the outside world and to get my like vitamin d in and it feels so good it feels like surprisingly re energizing just to have like rays of sunshine on your skin for a couple of minutes.
Jesse Lin 31:10
Well this was a very interesting episode listeners if you have anything you want to contribute if you want to tell us you’re lonely you can definitely reach out to us we will dm you back for sure so if you have any questions comments feelings you want to share with us feel free to dms on instagram and reminder that we’re still looking for listener stories submissions so write us in about whatever experience with this topic you have or whatever you want at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com and come back next week for a fresh new episode.