Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI
[00:00:00] Jesse: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin
[00:00:02] Angela: And I’m Angela Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really from? Today, we’re talking about a subject that we’ve been dancing around in our personal lives, which is social media and specifically the potential dark side of social media, basically cyber bowling, et cetera.
[00:00:26] Angela: Um, and I think. Is not a new subject. It’s something that has been around, I think since the advent of the internet really, but, uh, something that we wanted to talk about because it’s like kind of more recently. Something top of mind for us. And I think that’s because if you’ve been following our journey, as we’ve been trying to grow this podcast, the main way that we’re doing, so is through amping up our social media game.
[00:00:54] Angela: And specifically, um, we’re like heavy on Instagram, but we are now heavy on TikTok and also moving into YouTube and especially TikTok. Is just like such a space for conversation now, in terms of like where people congregate to have discussion on social media, outside of Twitter, but TikTok is where we are actively participating.
[00:01:19] Angela: Um, and so I, yeah, I just wanna talk about this because it’s like, there’s kind of like pros and cons to this, right? Like, Being connected to everyone around the world via social media is such a like amazing thing, but also has like so many potential pitfalls. So like an example of how amazing it is, um, an example of how the like, interconnect.
[00:01:47] Angela: Interconnectedness of all of us is so amazing. And hopefully this doesn’t change by the time between when I say this now and when it actually happens. But, um, is like as many of, you know, we recently did an episode about the Ukraine war and we’ve been pushing clips about that out on TikTok and Instagram.
[00:02:07] Angela: And we’ve been getting a lot of, uh, Conversation from people in Ukraine and largely showing appreciation and gratitude towards us, kind of like raising awareness about what’s going on and like getting people to talk more about the war. Um, but some people gave us some shit because we had a Russian civilian on, instead of is how they saw it instead of a Ukrainian.
[00:02:35] Angela: But if you actually listened to our episode, you saw. Our initial intent was to have both a Russian and a Ukrainian on so that we could have both those perspectives. Um, and unfortunately, because the Ukraine war is ongoing and super sensitive, the people that we had approached to fill that Ukrainian slot didn’t come through in time.
[00:02:54] Angela: And it was such a timely discussion that we wanted to make sure we had it out. Um, so anyway, some people were giving us shit on. And having a Russian as opposed to Ukrainian and something amazing that came through because of the interconnectedness of the internet. Is that one Ukrainian who is still in Keve.
[00:03:15] Angela: I think that’s how you actually pronounce it. Cuz I also got some shit about how you pronounce. The capital. I think it’s Kiev, not Kiev, but anyways, um, someone who is actually still in the capital right now has, uh, volunteered to come on our show as a follow up episode that we are gonna be recording one week from now.
[00:03:35] Angela: Um, and so hopefully that still happens, but that that’s like a really wonderful example of like someone we would never have. In real life, but because of the internet and some like passing comment, right? Like you, they happen to see her clip and they happen to be like, Hey, I can like add some color here.
[00:03:53] Angela: We are now connected to someone like directly in the middle of this like huge thing that’s going on in the world. So that’s like fucking amazing. And that’s something that I think is just like, you know, something we can’t match with the power that the internet and social media has provided to all of us.
[00:04:10] Angela: And on the flip side, because we are now putting ourselves out there, like full force on social media, starting all these conversations, being really vulnerable. We’re also opening ourselves up to haters and like, I don’t wanna call them. I mean, Cyber bullying. You can define the, how you will. Trolls is probably the more like accepted and more commonly used term.
[00:04:36] Angela: We’re getting a lot more trolls now and especially depending on which topics we’re covering. So for example, the like, Biggest wave of cyber bowling slash trolling. I was getting, while we were running this TikTok stuff was the episode that we were talking about the simplified versus traditional Chinese writing systems.
[00:04:58] Angela: I. and it was just such a like weird one, because I was like, why am I getting shadow for this? It’s like, we were just exploring like the two different writing systems and like how we personally get confused cuz we’re ABCs and blah, blah, blah. And there were just a lot of people like rolling in to tell me, like you’re so wrong and like how dare you, blah, blah, blah.
[00:05:17] Angela: And then a bunch of like Chinese nationalists who are like, Can’t wait for Taiwan to reunify with China and like all this shit. And I was like, whoa, bro. I didn’t come in here with that kind of energy. And it was just like waves of people like that. And it was the first time in my life that I’ve dealt with that.
[00:05:36] Angela: So it was just like, I was simultaneously happy that people were interested enough in, you know, the content to be in heated discussion about it. But also just like, it took a really strong toll on me, like personally, because. . I mean, these are all people that are just hiding behind like a fake avatar on the internet, but at the same time, they’re directing comments towards me.
[00:06:01] Angela: Mm-hmm because it’s like my face that’s out there saying these things and they’re like calling me a liar or like telling me I’m. Stupid or like telling Taiwan’s not a country, you know, there’s just like all these things. And I was like, it’s really hard for me to separate like things that I should be taking personally and things that I shouldn’t be taking personally.
[00:06:21] Angela: So yeah, this is why I think we are like recently inspired to talk about this subject because it is something that we’ve like personally been starting to, um, have to deal with ourselves.
[00:06:35] Jesse: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I think it’s interesting that I don’t know. I feel like when the internet first became a thing, like became widely accessible to people, there was immediately already like some weird, you know, like people were trolling in like forums, like pro areas where you could like message people and there.
[00:06:57] Jesse: I feel like there was this whole thing where it was like, as the internet matures, like those people will disappear because it will be less easy for them. Like it. It will be less easy for them to hide behind the anonymity of being on internet. But I feel like that’s actually accelerated because so many people are on the internet now, and there are so many different ways to access the internet.
[00:07:19] Jesse: Like you could be using the internet through like, let’s say clear web, like regular internet, you could be using an internet through the dark web. You could be using a VPN, like there’s so many ways to. Access to internet and OBS who you are that it’s, I think it’s become a larger problem than it was in the past, but it’s gotten less recognition because everybody is on the internet now.
[00:07:40] Jesse: Yes. So it’s kind of like, um, we’ve talked about this whole, like social contract in certain situations before. It’s kind of like, you are contracting potentially to be a harassed on the internet because you’re on the internet and it’s kind of not lawless, but it is like not, there’s not really. Governing body necessarily similar to how this contract that you have when you go on like content sites is you see an ad for the content.
[00:08:07] Jesse: So it’s kind of that situation. And, um, to your point, like it’s, uh, spread to different areas. So it’s a interesting topic, I think, to take a look. .
[00:08:20] Angela: Yeah. And I will add one thing is, um, I think there is just kind of like a little added layer of understanding around like what types of people engage on the internet once you are someone who puts out content for the internet.
[00:08:35] Angela: Um, because for example, we talked about on Twitter, both of us largely just lurk. And we do not actually like tweet. We just read people that we follow mm-hmm um, before I started posting our stuff on TikTok, especially I think I largely felt like, oh, the people who like engage on social media are largely like the content creators and like people who at least are investing now to like put their.
[00:09:05] Angela: As their avatar, if they’re gonna be like talking on the internet, they like are invested enough in conversations that they, they think they’re part of this like community or whatever. Right. And what I’ve found since posting our stuff and people asking questions or like hitting on me or like, whatever they’re doing is that I would say the majority of people that engage are just like blank, avatar people.
[00:09:29] Angela: Hmm, they are the lurkers, but they are lurkers who like to like chime in. Yeah. Especially if it’s something where they can say something kind of mean, but like stay anonymous. And it just, I constantly think of the, um, and sorry, I always, I talk about the story a lot and I’m like, I’ve always, but. Whatever the actual quote is, but like Brene brown, who’s like Haah one of the loveliest motivational speaker type people out there.
[00:09:59] Angela: But I remember watching. Oh, no, I read her book, one of her books. Mm-hmm and she started out saying like some things that she kind of has to like remind herself of all the time is that she gets haters all the time. When you’re a public figure. This is like even beyond social media. Right? Like when you’re like an actual public figure, you get a lot of haters because you’re just like easy to get picked on.
[00:10:20] Angela: Yeah. And she was saying like, you know, she’s personally also dealt with kind of like, how much should I, like, let hurt me versus not mm-hmm and her kind of, um, mantra is like those who are not brave enough to enter the stadium themselves. So like, think of it as like a gladiator or whatever, right? Like, yeah.
[00:10:41] Angela: Yeah. If you are not brave enough to enter the stadium, you don’t have a right to say anything or to have. Have me care about what you are saying. Mm-hmm about me because yeah. Why should I care? Like, I’m the one being brave enough to like, be vulnerable, put myself out there, like in the most, out there way possible, publicly.
[00:11:03] Angela: Right. And if you are gonna just be this like anonymous, hiding behind a avatar or nothing kind of person. Who cares what you have to say and like, easier so than done. But like, I always, I, when I’m like having trouble with like, how much do I care about this or not, I constantly kind of think about that mantra.
[00:11:20] Angela: And I’m like, okay, I just have to like, make myself believe it. But like, it, it makes a lot of sense to me and. and yeah, it was just like, it was interesting to me to see the proportion of people that engage that like literally have posted no content ever yeah. Are like private with like user 9, 5, 6 1, 2, and like are like in it heated, like shitting on you.
[00:11:42] Angela: It’s it’s crazy.
[00:11:43] Jesse: Yeah, I so a few things. Um, I think it will be interesting cuz we were just talking about to back it up with some stats. So there’s a study on pew research.org. I get all my internet related studies from there it’s a couple years old released in 2017. And it’s about kind of just online harassment in general.
[00:12:01] Jesse: So they surveyed a bunch of users and, uh, the conclusion was a, uh, the larger share of internet users view the online environment as a space that facilitates anonymity more than in 2014. So it’s. Couple years old, but basically, um, overall, like they surveyed the user on three kind of question areas. So it’s like, is it more anonymous?
[00:12:23] Jesse: Like the percentage of users who say online environment allows people to be more anonymous, more critical or more supportive of, of others. The more critical and more supportive. The percentage is about the same, but the largest difference is in the more anonymous category. So in 20 14, 60 2% of internet users said that the online environment allowed people to be more anonymous versus in 20 17, 80 6% of those surveyed said that it allowed people to be more anonymous.
[00:12:52] Jesse: So definitely I think people are like your experience. Is you’re picking up on the fact that there are more and more users that are effectively anonymous, cuz they have no information. They don’t post anything. They just like comment shit things. And that volume of users seems to be outweighing. Those users who are, um, generating critical, uh, what was it generating?
[00:13:14] Jesse: Uh, critical or supportive kind of comments,
[00:13:18] Angela: which I guess is in contrast to like when. MySpace and Facebook or whatever first came out. Right. And you had to like, kind of verify who you were. Not, not that everyone was real, but like, it felt more like you couldn’t be anonymous because especially Facebook, when that first came out, you had to be like university or high school affiliated, like.
[00:13:41] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. It was like a, a real thing. So you couldn’t be anonymous, you couldn’t be a troll like that. Mm-hmm um, so I guess, because when you read that sta I was like, why is that a stat? Because it’s so like, obvious to be that like, the internet has so many anonymous people, but in contrast to kind of the way things started of like, when social media and these like, Online groups first became a thing.
[00:14:04] Angela: It was a lot less anonymous because it was weirder. If you had like a fake picture, people were
[00:14:12] Jesse: expecting you, people were engage with you. Yeah, totally. And I also think like, there are so many more ways you can be anonymous now. Right? Like back then, it was like you had a few large portals. MySpace, maybe a third thing.
[00:14:27] Jesse: Like if you were, I, there were don’t
[00:14:29] Angela: even know to your point forums like Reddit and
[00:14:31] Jesse: yeah. Forums. Um, but now there’s those things basically. Well, not MySpace, but those things still exist. But now you have all of these other platforms that anyone can join in anonymously postings on. So there’s just like an infinite amount of places that a person can be troll in versus like in the past they really.
[00:14:52] Jesse: Not like limited scope, but they had a fewer places where they control around. And, oh, I was gonna follow up on your comment regarding like, not letting things absorb into yourself because I do think that, um, social media uses like really damaging to your self-esteem for sure. And the way that I deal with comments is actually I try to think about.
[00:15:16] Jesse: what the internet was for me when I first started using it. And the internet was for me, like Ebos world. like, just like, it was just, I like when I first started using the internet, it was just like trash internet. It’s like my face Ebos world. Like, um, just all the bad things that I wanted to do. I did on the internet.
[00:15:38] Jesse: And so. I think about it that way. And I’m like, oh, I can’t take this seriously. Like, this is, this is like the dumping ground for me. This is where I go to like, do all the things that are like, weird, like gross, like all that stuff. And it can’t be like a reality for me. And so I think about that and then I’m like, okay, like, this is all just like, not real.
[00:16:01] Jesse: And they don’t need to pay attention to it because it’s the same. Like I don’t put that stuff out as. My normal person, you know, I don’t like go up to someone and be like, here’s my internet search history. Like, this is what I like, you know, it’s like, everyone has kind of their like dual thing. So I try to just think about like, the internet is not like a serious place.
[00:16:19] Jesse: It’s all like, for me, like the origin has always been like, like a, that it’s been like a ridiculous, silly, like playground. Um, and when I think about it like that, it. It doesn’t affect me as much because I’m like, why am I, why am I so stressed over? Like what this person in this like, ridiculous place is telling me about?
[00:16:37] Jesse: Like, I don’t care about that. So, yeah.
[00:16:39] Angela: Yeah. I mean, I guess both are true though. It is simultaneously a ridiculous playground with like, Stupid things that is definitely the internet AKA, like why meme culture is half of the internet, but at the same time, I think because people use it legitimately as a place to connect also with other people in conversation with each other, when you are remote, for example, blah, blah.
[00:17:07] Angela: There’s like a lot of serious aspects of like usage of the internet that. Makes it difficult for me to just completely disregard this as like a dumping ground of bullshit mm-hmm um, because there are so many like real things going on. Um, and also like, I don’t know because, well, maybe because I like quit my job and this is like my only thing.
[00:17:29] Angela: This is my main thing now. Yeah. So like content creator, like title, right. Your whole job is the internet and like be being on the internet. Yeah. So I can’t disregard it like that for me. Unfortunately, it’s like, I can’t make that separation. And so I’m like, this is me this, and like the, the things we’re putting out there is us.
[00:17:50] Angela: It’s not like a fake version of us. Like what we talk about right now and is what goes on. And like, this is what we actually think this is our actual experience. So it’s just. It’s hard for me to separate, but anyways, this actually ties into, like you said, we wanted to bring in some stats and I, I don’t know if we need to like rattle off all the stats, just like ones that are kind of relevant, I guess, to what we’re saying.
[00:18:10] Angela: Mm-hmm but, um, kind of to show like how the complexity of the internet. Has both these like dark and good sides. We’ve been talking about like the negative aspects of how the internet, what the internet has brought forward. But actually I saw some interesting stats from, let me see. Oh, it’s actually, it might have been the same pew research that you, um, were pulling from as 2018.
[00:18:40] Angela: Um, oh, not in mindset, you’re older, but oh, okay. This is 2018 pew research and it says that 81% of teens say social media makes them feel more connected. To what’s going on in their friends’ lives. And I saw, it’s not just this study. I have like at least two or three additional ones that say essentially the same thing.
[00:19:01] Angela: So it’s this weird dichotomy because it is simultaneously a place that very easily hits people’s self esteems in like a really bad way, because you’re comparing what other people are doing. You feel like you have to like. The best stuff out there, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, especially gen Z and below, right?
[00:19:22] Angela: Like people who are like born into the internet age, as opposed to us where we like new life before the internet, and then transitioned into the internet age. So people who were like born into this digital age, It is kind of the main way that they stay connected with their friends. So it it’s, they cannot separate it, like you said, because it is like, it’s literally another version of real life for them.
[00:19:48] Angela: It’s like, it’s not like social internet, social media becomes like fake life. And like IRL is the only real life it’s like, this is both real life. Um, and it has this positive impact of them. Like if I’m not able to spend like physical time with all my friends, when I like talk to them, catch up with them, like their thing, comment on their thing.
[00:20:11] Angela: It makes me feel like I’m actually interacting with them, even though it’s only through digital
[00:20:16] Jesse: means. That’s interesting because
[00:20:23] Jesse: I always feel like. My, my hypothesis or conjecture was that like generations path, like younger than us, would be able to navigate the internet in a way that is even less, um, where they would be tricked even less than we are. If that makes sense. Because like, I’m starting to get to a point where I’m like, oh, am I being, do I understand the internet anymore?
[00:20:50] Jesse: like, you know, kind of like you’re reaching the, I’m reaching my like initial boom. Mm situation where I’m like, do I understand the internet anymore? Like, am, am I being manipulated somehow? And I always, I, I always felt like, as you grew up with the stuff, it becomes easier for you because you’re just like native there, but I’ve never thought about it kind of like the way you’re describing it, because a lot of the stuff that people have like brought to me, which is like, um, like re your, your.
[00:21:17] Jesse: Uh, whatever your real Insta versus your Finsta mm-hmm that that’s all like gen Z stuff. So I always, I always thought that like, oh, they were able, they, they understand how separate it. Right? You have your real Insta for your real people and your Finsta, whereas you’re projecting like, whatever it is, you wanna project.
[00:21:33] Jesse: Um, but that doesn’t mean necessarily that there aren’t like, um, underlying. Underlying things that people are experiencing, maybe not like consciously thinking about, because all of that, for sure. I think does have some kind of, um, mental weight on your like functioning. Yeah.
[00:21:54] Angela: Yeah. Well, even the fact that you mentioned that people have real Insta versus Finsta implies that they do use the real one to like connect with actual people they care about.
[00:22:04] Angela: Yes. Like, so there. there are these two sides. Mm-hmm um, but since you’re talking about kind of like the mental hole and whatnot, and we’re talking about teens, I did wanna share a few stats that are relevant. And I think we wanted to like chat specifically about kind of like people who grew up who are growing up now in this kind of like digital world and navigating it.
[00:22:25] Angela: Mm-hmm um, so something. Okay. I have some general stats that I think are interesting and then like specifically re COVID and how that kind of like amplified everything. Mm-hmm um, so general stats. This is from the government’s website, actually the oh, government website, but via UNESCO. So this is like global stats.
[00:22:47] Angela: Okay. Um, low socioeconomic status is a main factor in youth bullying. Basically for poor, you’re more likely to be bullied. And I think that that is especially true in places where maybe you happen. Maybe you go to a school where like, not everyone is low income and maybe you were like, you know, you tested in or whatever.
[00:23:08] Angela: And you kind of always feel like you’re odd one out. Or you’re just like on the border of like, not as well off as other people. I think that’s very much possible. And then this one hits home for us. Immigrant born youth in wealthy countries are more likely to be bullied than locally born youth. Hello.
[00:23:32] Angela: Hello. Welcome to our lives. um, yeah, so those are just like, so noodle on some general stats and then ones that I thought were really interesting, which is like, I’m sure already expected this, but it was nice to see like real stats. Um, these two studies are from COVID times. Um, this is from a site. A anti cyber bullying site called the enough is enough.
[00:24:02] Angela: Um, but there’s one study and it was, this was based in Europe, but from February, 2021, it’s really recent, um, 44% of children who had been cyber bullied before lockdown said it happened even more. During lockdown mm-hmm . And then similarly, um, from a 20, 20, April, 2021, there’s been a 70% increase in the amount of bullying slash hate speech among teens and children in the month, since the COVID lockdown began.
[00:24:32] Angela: And. Hey listeners, wondering how you can support us. The biggest way is by increasing our visibility by following us on Instagram at where are you from pod on TikTok at, but where are you really from subscribing to our YouTube channel under, but where are you really from podcast? Rating and reviewing us on apple podcasts and telling your friends the more people we can get to listen to the show, the more we can continue spotlighting different perspectives and stories.
[00:24:57] Angela: And if you feel so inclined, we’re also accepting donations@buymeiacoffee.com slash where are you from? Thanks. Y’all so it’s just like, I feel like what we just discussed about, you know, the anonymous nature of people. Kind of congregating to the internet to like, be negative and like, do these things shielded behind this like hidden veil of anonymity.
[00:25:26] Angela: I already suspected that was the case that like COVID made it worse, but it was interesting to see these actual stats because basically it feels like to. especially being a, like kid growing up during this time and being ripped outta school for the last two years and doing like home, you know, essentially homeschooling via zoom and not having those normal social interactions with people.
[00:25:49] Angela: Like, especially if you were already not that comfortable in social settings, I could see it being just like a complete dumpster fire during COVID where it’s like, Um, people just like pile on because of like, what do I have to lose? Like I, and a lot of it comes from like self hate as well. You know, like a lot of people who bully in general aren’t because they like have insecurities about themselves, but I’m sure a lot of people were just like, I feel like shit myself right now.
[00:26:19] Angela: And I have nowhere to like, unleash this. So, so I’m just gonna like double down on my like outward hatred towards these other kids. I feel shitty about myself right now. So it’s like
[00:26:30] Jesse: fucking off. Yeah. I mean, I also, I think it’s difficult, right? Because it’s like, when you’re in a fiscal location for school, you could like, you can’t monitor cyber bullying, but you can monitor kids’ usage of phones.
[00:26:42] Jesse: You can see if they’re actually bullying people in real life, but as people are at home, It’s very difficult to, I mean, I, like, I think we’ve discussed this before. I don’t envy anyone being a parent right now. It is very difficult to understand what is happening. And like, it’s really hard to see how your kids are chatting with other people.
[00:27:01] Jesse: I mean, like, especially if you are gen Z has a Finsta and like you’re like, which is the real fit and they don’t tell you the fences there. So it. I, I can definitely see how, how the pandemic proliferated cyberbullying, because it just makes it so much easier and there’s no one to stop you. Right. So, you know, I think that’s so much the worst in people sometimes.
[00:27:23] Angela: Yeah. To your point of like it being so much harder to detect as parents, I feel like I just wanna like highlight that because I feel like a lot of parents talk about like, um, device control, right? Like trying to like monitor how many hours. Their kids are on the internet and whatever, and maybe they were actually able to do that.
[00:27:43] Angela: Doubt it, but like maybe they were more easily able to do that when it was pre pandemic. But when you like have to be on the internet to be at school and school is like six, seven hours a day or whatever, like, you don’t know what your kid is doing during those hours. They’re probably just like dicking around how many people are like actually paying attention to their teacher through a.
[00:28:05] Angela: Webcam for two years, six, seven hours a day. Yeah. Right. They definitely have like their chat open and like are simultaneously on TikTok or whatever. And you, as a parent are probably so stressed, like working your own job in the other room, or like doing all the other things to like, keep the family going that you can possibly be seeing what your kid is doing.
[00:28:26] Angela: So like, yeah, someone could be like in class quote unquote in class, and then also like being bullied or bullying via social media at the same time. Just like their face is on the screen, but they’re doing other ships in
[00:28:38] Jesse: time. Yeah. And even if you just thinking about it from that perspective, like if you, as an adult are struggling in this current situation and you have the, your full capacity of having learned.
[00:28:49] Jesse: Social structures, how to communicate, how to work with other people. And you’re struggling. Think about how difficult it must be for a teenager or a kid who doesn’t have all of that. Who’s still building all of that and can’t build all of that because they’re not really in person with other people they’re struggling.
[00:29:06] Jesse: They don’t know what to do. And it’s, I, I like it’s a shitty situation all around because it’s just kinda like a general failure. I don’t think kind of what you’re saying. Um, I mean, aside from the people who are like really sadistic, like, I don’t think anyone particularly enjoys bullying people. Like, I don’t, it doesn’t, it’s not like a fun that, you know, it’s like something that you, you hurt someone else, but like, eventually that hurts you too.
[00:29:30] Jesse: Right? Cuz it’s, it’s a real, I think it takes some
[00:29:32] Angela: self-awareness to understand that
[00:29:34] Jesse: that’s true, but I’m just saying like, let’s say genuinely speaking, the welfare of this person is not. Like they have some kind of issue that they’re not dealing with and that’s being pushed onto other people. Mm-hmm , as you’re still learning the social structure, like being in a social structure, enforces like good behavior, bad behavior.
[00:29:53] Jesse: Right. And if you’re outside of that, that starts to disappear for you. Right. And especially if you’re on the internet, cuz you’re like, oh no one can tell who I am, who can tell I’m doing a good thing or bad thing. Yeah. Um, and I think that that can create negative behaviors where there may not have been.
[00:30:10] Angela: Yeah, yeah. To your point of kind of like the social structures, not existing to kind of reinforce what is good or bad. I also. To your point. A lot of people don’t mean to be mean, but maybe they say something that is hurtful and they don’t know that it’s hurtful. And when it’s an online space, a lot of times, the way you interact with people then is one-on-one.
[00:30:35] Angela: It’s like a chat or like a mess at a DM, like, or you leave a comment or like, whatever, it’s like harder to be in like group settings. Right. Unless it’s like a group zoom, but those are so awkward. Blah, blah. Anyways, there’s a lot more of like direct channel communication. So maybe you say something to someone say you’re a kid, right?
[00:30:53] Angela: Like a teen or whatever you say something to someone that like you don’t think is that mean, but like is actually pretty hurtful. And then the only person who witnessed that was like the person you said it to. , you’re not getting that like social feedback from like, normally it would be like, maybe you said it in front of like your friends and then someone would be like, dude, that’s kind of mean, why would you say that?
[00:31:13] Angela: You know, or like your mom over here say it. And they’re like, whoa, how could you say that? And then you know, that it’s bad and you don’t get that when it’s online. So I could see a lot of it of like, what is called bullying could be just like unchecked. You know, behavior that the kid even doesn’t really know was going to be that hurtful.
[00:31:36] Angela: Um, and then just like, won’t it’ll compound. I can see it compounding of like, oh, just like so much unchecked behavior of like, kind of borderline bad mm-hmm and then not knowing that it’s actually that bad. And then coming out two years later being like kind of a shit, a monster. Yeah. Not a monster, but just like, there’s just like a lot of shit.
[00:31:55] Angela: Like, um, I don’t wanna compare. Okay. I’m not saying like humans are animals. We kind of are, but like, um, for example, I watch the show on Netflix. That’s about, um, dogs being trained and there was one dog that they feature that was like taken from its mom at like two weeks old, which is not, it’s like a, no-no like usually dogs for adoption are like six to eight weeks.
[00:32:19] Angela: And it’s because during those few weeks it’s like really critical for the mom to like check their, do their pup essentially of like, it’s like trying to like bite. You know, it’s brothers and sisters were like wandering off or whatever. And the mom kind of like, yeah, checks it like physically. And then it learns these like fundamental things like, oh, I should not do this.
[00:32:38] Angela: This is bad, whatever, whatever. And then that dog was taken away so soon that the trainer was explaining, like, that’s why it’s such a bad dog. It’s not, it’s not really a bad dog. It’s just like it. Wasn’t it never learned. That that was like not okay. And now we have to like put in extra effort to teach to that dog so I could see it being kind of like that again, not saying a human is equivalent to a dog, but like, there are certain things in this like very impressionable age of like kid to young adult.
[00:33:06] Angela: where you don’t know how to behave necessarily. Mm-hmm until you’ve had enough practice in social interactions with lots of different people to know like, oh, this is hurtful to other people, oh, this is like, I would not wanna be treated this way. And I it’s like, I’m not putting myself in their shoes and blah, blah, blah.
[00:33:25] Angela: And being on the internet, I can just like obfuscate all of that.
[00:33:29] Jesse: So I have my own. Ideas about why people troll on the internet. But I think it’s kind of like for me, I feel like, let me just say, like, if I were to be a troll, the reason I would be a troll is because there are things I wanna say, but I don’t wanna say publicly, like, I don’t want people do I identify them to me, but I wanna say certain things to certain people where I’m like, you’re stupid.
[00:33:54] Jesse: You are wrong. You are ugly. Um, but it’s hard for me to, you know, like it’s really hard for me to imagine the motivation sometimes because I’m a really lazy person. So I’m like, I’m not gonna go outta my way to create a new account, just to message this person that they’re do. Like, I got better things to do with my time.
[00:34:15] Jesse: I would rather be watching TV. I’d rather pet my cat. I need to pick up shit on my floor. Like I have so many other things to do. I would rather do those things. Then go online and like shit on someone, because what’s the point. Like I don’t get anything out of it. Um, however, I think when I Des when you describe it like that, I start to think like, there must be like something fundamentally eating at the person that they would do that because what rational person would spend time on the internet shitting on people when you have so many other things to do.
[00:34:47] Jesse: Right. So I think about a troll as someone who has, like, they’re not probably don’t have a lot of social connections. They probably don’t have a lot going on in their lives because otherwise they’d be doing other stuff. Um, and those are kind of, I think the two main drivers for me, when I think about it and they obviously have some kind of like stressors on their life or negativity on their life, which is causing them to go on, um, the internet to lash out in that way.
[00:35:14] Jesse: But I think it’s like similar to the teams as like lack of a social network or social structure. Um, lack of fundamentally stuff to do, right? If you’re in a class six or seven hours a day, you don’t really do anything. You’re pretty bored. And then you have this thing where you, you. It could be COVID it could be loved one pass away, whatever you have, this, whatever stressor that is causing you to, um, lash out in certain ways.
[00:35:39] Jesse: I don’t think I’ve ever trolled anyone, but I will say like professionally, sometimes it’s really hard to keep your temper, right. Especially if you’re working in a high stress situation and like, you feel like the people you’re working with are. Holding up their ends like you there I’ve definitely gotten in certain situations where I just, I said something to someone and I was like, that was not like, that was not helpful in any way.
[00:36:01] Jesse: It was not professional. Like, it didn’t serve anything except for my need to tell this person that they are dumb or whatever. And, and that, that all comes from the same kind of thing where it’s like, there’s a stressor and then I’m like BLE to you. And I like that didn’t I didn’t really wanna do that, but I was just like, so.
[00:36:20] Jesse: In the moment about this, how I was feeling that I did it. Um, but I’ll pass what you I’ll pass over to you to say what you think as well.
[00:36:28] Angela: Yeah, no, I completely agree. And actually the work thing is a really good example because that’s not even like an anonymous version of bullying and it’s not an intentful bullying either.
[00:36:37] Angela: And I’ve done the exact same thing. I think there is just something there’s like different layers of reasons. Someone. Say something that is hurtful on the internet and the like least intentional is kind of the one you just described of like, even when you are not anonymous and you are just at work and you’re just communicating, there is a big difference between an in person and like an online email or chat or whatever.
[00:37:06] Angela: And the ease. I honestly think that like, ease of saying whatever you were thinking. is a big reason. People say things that they shouldn’t be saying, because when you don’t have to face that person or even video, right? Like you wouldn’t, sometimes you wouldn’t even say these things. Like if you just had a video conference on and you’re, you were facing each other, even cyber, but video, you would never say.
[00:37:31] Angela: what you were going to say. Um, and so I think there is just some, like, ease of like your fingers, just start flowing. It’s like stream of consciousness, right? Like I think when you talk out loud in, in real life or via video, you are forced to filter. It brings forced to like filter where you’re gonna say before you actually blur something out most of the time.
[00:37:53] Angela: Right? Like I obviously like still have said things that I shouldn’t be saying out loud, but. That filter gets shut down a lot lower when you are like via internet, even non anonymous email and like chat or whatever. You’re just like, I’m just fucking pissed. And then you’re just like, blah, blah. And then you hit enter.
[00:38:13] Angela: You’re like, shit. It’s like too late
[00:38:15] Jesse: where you were talking about with different levels like that. I, I feel like the reason that it’s acceptable due to that is because when you’re doing like a slack or you’re doing like an email that is like a level one anonymity because, because you’re not actually like you’re in my brain, I’m like, oh, that you don’t necessarily see the person at the other end of what you’re doing.
[00:38:39] Jesse: Cuz you’re just writing the email and it’s just an email. And that email is like, Disassociated slightly mm-hmm from the person, which is why you can just be like, blah. And it’s okay at the moment. Um, but why you wouldn’t like face to face even on a video be like necessarily. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:59] Angela: Um, okay. And then going levels down right into like actual anonymity and people on the internet, like purposely saying mean things like, not just like, oops.
[00:39:09] Angela: Didn’t know, that would be hurtful, like purposefully saying like you’re stupid or like this is dumb, blah, blah, blah. I agree. I think a lot of it has to do with like, they have their own shit going on that they’re not dealing with either. Like they don’t have a lot of things going on, like you said, or they have.
[00:39:24] Angela: Misfortune happening in their lives that they’d rather not deal with head on and instead are kind of like directing their attention elsewhere to kind of, um, distract themselves. I think a lot of it also comes down to. the lack of accountability that you need to have when you say these things on the internet.
[00:39:44] Angela: So like you said, oh, there are all these times. I I’ve thought about saying like, you are stupid, you’re ugly, blah, blah, blah. But you don’t do that. And a big part of it is like, well, whether you’re anonymous or if you were not anonymous and you actually said that you’d have to take accountability. Right.
[00:40:04] Angela: And when you are anonymous, you don’t really, because it’s really hard for people to like, figure out who you are, especially when you’re a user 9 5 6 1 2. Yeah. And so it, it gives you the permission to be an asshole because no, one’s gonna be able to. Figure it out who you are. And so a lot of people is similar to what we were talking about during like the pandemic when there was all the like anti-Asian stuff, which is like a lot of people were thinking these things before COVID started and originated.
[00:40:34] Angela: After that came out, it was like, everyone got this permission to like release all these, like anti-Asian thoughts that they had. And some people even did. So UN anonymously, like, like in real life and just like, say things to people’s face, which is like awful. But. Amplify that even more on the internet where people can be anonymous and take no accountability for it.
[00:40:57] Angela: And just be like, I’ve always hated you. Now I get the chance to like, tell you that I hate you and not take any responsibility for that.
[00:41:05] Jesse: Absolutely. And when you were saying that, what was coming to my brain was the like risk reward. Mm-hmm for being control basically. And like, when I describe that for myself, There’s no risk.
[00:41:16] Jesse: Right? I could do that anonymously, but there’s also no reward for me. Like I’m not gonna get, you know, like I would rather be doing all these other things. That reward is higher for me than trolling people. But for other people, How things have changed, have shifted how they evaluated their risk and their reward for being an online troll or expressing things that they may not have expressed before, which is why all these things are just like coming out of the word, work like crazy people or thinking they say whatever they want.
[00:41:45] Jesse: And it’s cool. Like, yeah, that’s definitely what’s happening.
[00:41:48] Angela: I think there’s also just two more, like kind of like speculating things. One is, um, similar to what we were talking about, the kind of like dissociation of like, you don’t see the other end or whatever. Like I think even though for example, like on TikTok or whatever, like they were seeing our faces, cuz it’s a video based thing.
[00:42:09] Angela: They know that they’re not talking to like the actual person, like it’s not like a live conversation that they’re having. Yeah. So then it feels. Easier to say something mean. Yeah, because it’s like, oh, I’m not like live discussing with you. So it’s fine. And then the other aspect is like, when you are anonymous, I think you, there’s almost this element of like, you decide that you get to be like the judge of everything.
[00:42:33] Angela: Mm. And there was no like consequence to it. Right. You’re just like, you’ve like deemed yourself, the like ultimate judge overlord of everything to get to say, like, what’s good. What’s bad. What’s shit. What’s great. And like you given that yourself, you’ve given yourself that power because, because no one can take it away from you.
[00:42:53] Angela: Mm-hmm like, you can just like roll into like. Bri, you know, Brittney Spears’s account were like the biggest people on the planet and tell them they’re fat and ugly and whatever. And like, no one can make you not say that. Yeah. So you just feel like, oh, now I’m like so important and why should I take this power away from myself?
[00:43:13] Jesse: I don’t know. Anyways, to your point of, um, people trolling on famous people’s accounts, do you think it’s worth it to become internet famous? I mean like some people are, would you consider Britney internet famous? No, she’s actually famous. Yeah. She’s like, there’s a difference. Yeah. There’s a difference.
[00:43:29] Jesse: Internet famous are like people who are, uh, Jojo. Siwa is internet. I think who else? Um, I mean
[00:43:36] Angela: every talker. Yeah. Every like influencer person. Yeah. Content creator. Yeah. Is internet famous, like anyone who was completely unknown until they’ve made a personality for themselves on the internet is mm-hmm is what I consider, like internet famous.
[00:43:52] Angela: And some of them actually like transcend. Different non-internet things, but like if they started with that, that’s, that’s what I deem internet fame. Okay.
[00:44:01] Jesse: Um, you go first. Well, I told you, I, I I’ve started this like thought Instagram account FTA, basically. and I can tell you it’s not, I mean, like it’s not that it’s, like, I started with a very specific goal, which is to be like attention seeking, which is like fine.
[00:44:20] Jesse: Um, but also. There are some like unfun aspects of it, because like random people will message you with some level of entitlement being like, like we should hang out and like, we should see each other. And I’m like, no, we shouldn’t like, I’m here for like cue people to hit me up and you’re not cute. Or like, people will send like, I’m solicited, like Dick pics.
[00:44:42] Jesse: And I’m like, uh, like this is not like a. It better be a really good Dick pick if just send and it’s not that
[00:44:49] Angela: good. Do you think it’s worth it or you don’t think it’s worth it? Or what, what was it? It
[00:44:53] Jesse: has not been worth it so far. I see. Um, I thought it would be like really easy where you post like a thirsty photo and a million people will follow you.
[00:45:02] Jesse: And apparently that’s not the case anymore.
[00:45:05] Angela: well, Yeah. There’s a lot of people post a lot of stuff. Yeah.
[00:45:10] Jesse: It’s hard to sift through. I will, I will say like, probably the negative part of it is that like, I do follow a lot of other like thought accounts to try to like replicate what they’re doing. And it, the explore page is like a little bit stressful, cuz I’m like, everyone looks so beautiful and there’s so many of ’em that I’m like, this is crazy.
[00:45:27] Jesse: But then on the other hand, sometimes people will pop up on my Explorer where I’m like this person’s not cute. Why do they have like 10,000 follow. It’s
[00:45:34] Angela: hard to say. Yeah. It’s hard to say the internet is a strange place. You’re a target. Um, well, yeah, for me first, I’ll kind of like, we made this big distinction between like real famous versus like real IL famous right.
[00:45:49] Angela: Versus internet famous. And I’ve Al I’ve had the same discussion with so many people, which is. A lot of people who covet being famous, really just covet wealth because they think of like, oh, if I were famous, I’d get a private jet. I’d like have money to light all these mansions, like fancy cars and like rich clothes on whatever.
[00:46:10] Angela: Right. And they don’t think of the downsides. So for example, we mentioned Brittany, Britney, Britney, I feel so bad for Britt for like so many different reasons, but like, forget the conservatorship. I watched this documentary of her like 10 years ago where she was like, I can’t even like go shopping. Like I go to, I decide to randomly go to like a boutique shop to buy some clothes and there’s like 500 Popp sea outside.
[00:46:32] Angela: And I can’t even like, enjoy my time. Yeah. And. . So when we talk about like that aspect, I I’ve always said, like, I’d rather just be rich and anonymous than be like famous. Right. Because then you enjoy all the perks of being famous without the, like annoyingness of like people to your point of like feeling entitled towards you.
[00:46:52] Angela: Like people who are like fans of. Famous people. They feel like they know them. Yeah. So then they feel entitled to like go up and like demand things and like should the most extreme stalk them. Right. And like expect some sort of real relationship with them, which is crazy. So I’ve never wanted that. But now when we’re in this like weird space of like, we’re like content creators now and like we’re, you know, trying to like create some sort of footprint.
[00:47:19] Angela: I’m conflicted because I think I don’t personally want to be famous in internet famous in that. Like, I don’t want stalkers. I don’t want like people to like come up to me randomly on the street and whatever. I still don’t want that. But at the same time, because. The means of like us creating this footprint is through us talking and like our personalities being out there, I can’t be an anonymous, rich person, you know, like in the like other scenario, right.
[00:47:49] Angela: I, my face is inherently attached to it. And I think I can’t definitively say if it’s worth it or not, because for me a big motivator to do. Podcast is that I think a lot of what we say is really important. Not, not like not everything we say is important. Like I don’t think us getting drunk and watching sailor moon is necessarily like the most, most the deepest conversation, but.
[00:48:17] Angela: I think sometimes we talk about really important things. For example, Ukraine more other times, like we’ve mentioned just us existing and being able to talk about stupid shit, but us being Asian and like putting our faces out there and making it normal for people who look like us to be in media. I think that is important.
[00:48:33] Angela: So the big reason why I’m studying so much time to like make a footprint is that I think more people should be viewing our stuff to like. Benefit from shared experiences, things they never knew about, or just seeing people who look like them and knowing that that’s normal. Like, I think that’s really important and that’s why I, I wanna grow it so more people see it.
[00:48:54] Angela: But at the same time, I personally don’t want it. Like I have this other side where I’m like, I don’t want it to grow at all because I don’t want more people to come in to like be assholes towards us. I don’t want potentially people to. Stalk me and like, do you know all these like pot cancel me, like all these things that come with, like putting yourself out there.
[00:49:14] Angela: I don’t want any of those things, but at the same time, I want our message to get out. So it’s just like, it’s really frustrating because there is, I can’t separate the internet because I see that there’s both, there’s like this dumb. Stupid part of the internet that I really shouldn’t care about, but then there’s this like really fruitful part of the internet where people are having real conversations and like getting real meaning like the number of people who’ve said, like, thank you so much for like sharing these stories that I felt so alone about this until I like heard you talk about this, or like, I’m learning more about my culture by listening to you guys talk about it on.
[00:49:49] Angela: Podcasts like the number of those types of messages that we get, make it impossible for me to say, like, this is stupid and not worth my time. Mm-hmm so I just like, I’m very conflicted. I, I don’t have a yes, no.
[00:50:00] Jesse: Yeah. I hear what you’re basically like your. you don’t want the negative impacts of fame for creating an earnest conversation?
[00:50:10] Jesse: Yeah. Right. It’s tricky because like, I feel like let’s take the Kardashians. For example. I don’t think that any, like they have real lives. That’s never seen by anybody. Yeah. So like, they’ve done the opposite where it’s like, they’re, they’ve created. Dis earnest is not a word, but it’s a false conversation about their lives to hide their real lives.
[00:50:36] Jesse: So they don’t have to deal with, let’s say the impacts of fame. I
[00:50:40] Angela: truly just wish people on the internet would do a basic filter of like, if I were actually in front of your face right now, would you actually say that to my face live? If yes. Say it say, like, if you, if you would truly say that to my face and I have the right to respond to you say it to me, but like, if you would feel bad saying it to my face, don’t fucking say that shit.
[00:51:11] Angela: Like, because think about it. Like, if I were to say that to you, would you be happy? Like it’s just like golden rule, right? Like most basic fundamental thing we learn as children is. Don’t be a fucking asshole. If you can’t even be brave enough to have actually said that in real life, you don’t get the right to say that on the internet guys, like.
[00:51:31] Angela: Be kind,
[00:51:32] Jesse: if you wanna dish it, you better be able to take it. Yes, mm-hmm this is the, this is the, the truth.
[00:51:40] Angela: Exactly. And actually, I, I, I wanna wrap this up, but like I actually found there was a difference in like, um, cause I mentioned like all these trolls right in the beginning because I I’m still learning all the social media shit.
[00:51:52] Angela: Right. And so it was like the first kind of wave of things that like really took off for us on, on TikTok. And so. All these people just like came in with like unsolicited opinions. Right. And a lot of them kind of like rude or mean, and then with this Ukraine stuff, the, the recent Ukraine war clips that we put out, I put like, exactly my sources of like where I was drawing this information.
[00:52:14] Angela: And then I wrote on the video kind corrections welcome. And I notice a huge difference in the way that people. Responded with just that little caveat, because then people were like, they acknowledged things like, oh, this is like mostly right, but there are some nuances you didn’t get right here. Let me add some nuance, as opposed to saying like, this is wrong.
[00:52:39] Angela: Blah, blah, blah, which is how people were responding to like my other stuff before. So I think when you acknowledge, like I’m open to feedback, but be kind like people are generally actually nicer about that. Maybe because they realize that we’re human, because we like put that thing in there of like, I’m not just a fucking robot who wants to like receive mean things.
[00:52:59] Angela: Yeah. Be nice to me. If you’re gonna like make corrections. I, I think it makes a difference. It’s kind of interest.
[00:53:05] Jesse: I think it makes sense. I mean, you’re like prompting the person to do something, right. So if we’re talking about, I mean, internet is no social structure. No. Like the way that we think about your life.
[00:53:15] Jesse: But if you want to think of that message as like a reinforcing thing to remind the person like, Hey. You know, you’re here, but like, I would appreciate it if you were still like talking like a real person, not like a crazy person mm-hmm maybe reminded them like, Hey, I cannot just like, blah . Yes, whatever comment I want.
[00:53:36] Jesse: Yeah,
[00:53:36] Angela: exactly. Interesting. All right. Well, on that kind of more uplifting note, transitioning now to the fortune cookie. Closing section. And it’s not exactly a high, high note, but we just wanna acknowledge that, like, everything we’ve talked about today can commute like really heavy. Um, especially like we talked a lot about how this whole.
[00:53:59] Angela: World can impact young people who are still like quite impressionable, um, and how it can have like a really hard impact on self-esteem and like mental health and all that. So I think we just wanted to end on providing a few resources for, um, around anti-bullying depress, you know, people who have suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts, those kinds of things, just to remind you that.
[00:54:25] Angela: you’re not alone. And that this shouldn’t be normalized that you just like accept these things that people are throwing onto you, or like these hard feelings that you’re dealing with. And there are people out there that want to talk to you and help you get through it. But this is specifically for us people, um, national kind of like database for where you can try to find something local to you is stop bullying.gov.
[00:54:52] Angela: and they there’s like a get help now kind of like subpage and you can like find actual resources local to you. Um, so put that out there and then, because I represen. California. Um, there’s one that’s California specific that I found was interesting. I think they actually started it like semi-recently maybe because of the pandemic and realizing like how much of a tool it’s taking on young people.
[00:55:16] Angela: Um, there is a California specific mental health for youth program and it is infl. So in D I N D. EFL F L I X and dfl.com/california. It’s like an actual, like, I think it’s like an online module type thing where they. Walk you through this, this program around mental health, like awareness and like how to deal with these feelings of like difficulty with your mental health, especially during these like hyper cyber times.
[00:55:50] Angela: Yeah. Um, and it’s specifically for California. So if you’re in California and you’re either your parent, or you’re a young person, that’s like dealing with this and you don’t really know how to like approach mental health. Topics, maybe this could be a good program for you, those in my too.
[00:56:06] Jesse: Cool. So I will not rep a location, but rather my L G B T plus mm-hmm friends folks.
[00:56:14] Jesse: Um, the first one, I think a lot of people I’ve heard of, which is just the Trevor project. So it’s just the Trevor project.org. Um, you can reach a counselor, I think, digitally, and you can also call them so, oh, and you can also text them. So if you’re in need of talking to someone. if someone has said something really rude or mean to you, like you can get a hold of a counselor to chat with you right away.
[00:56:37] Jesse: And the second one also, because this has been a huge issue, um, recently with a lot of trans people being like killed and targeted, um, trans lifeline I think is also a great one. So the, the website is just trans likely.org. And it’s the same kind of thing. They’ve got a hotline that you can call for any kind of resources, anything that.
[00:56:56] Jesse: So hopefully these will be helpful to everyone listening. And, um, we hope that even if you are not being bullied, you could spread these resources. Um, if, if you, if you know someone who needs it as well as a listener of ours. Yeah,
[00:57:10] Angela: totally great. Well, man, I feel heavy talking about this, but um, if you have.
[00:57:19] Angela: Comments feedback re uh, experiences that you wanna share related to these topics. You can either email us at tell us where you’re from@gmail.com or you can DMS comment, whatever on our various social media. Um, because, yeah, it’s a, I think it’s something weird that we like all kind of have to deal with now that we live in this like hyper digital hybrid world.
[00:57:45] Angela: Um, so yeah, let us know what you think and come back next week because we’ll have another episode for you then. And until then,