[00:00:00] Angela: All right. Hey everyone. I’m Angela Lin
[00:00:02] Jesse: And I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, But Where Are You Really From. This week, we’re going to take another journey back into the fun, fun mind opening world of substance usage. Um, we both recently watched Nine Perfect Strangers. And I don’t know if you guys have watched it, but the series it’s kind of like a slow burn, right?
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
[00:00:27] Jesse: Like you’re kind of confused as to what’s happening at first. And then it gets like really, really crazy really quickly. And there are like many things in there where you’re, where based off of my personal experiences. I’m like, oh yeah, that’s it. But then there are like many other things, right. I don’t think that’s how it works like exactly. So we thought we would just have another exploration into our own experiences. I’m like, what seems true versus like, not really reality from, from the series and kind of like end with a little bit of insight or digging into like why substances are still so maligned sometimes and like why only certain people seem to have access to them.
[00:01:11] Angela: Yes. And before we get into all that, I think it’s important to go through like a plot synopsis type situation. Because many people may have heard of it and like the title, but you probably don’t know what it is unless you watched it. So it’s a Hulu show and it stars Nicole Kidman and like a shit ton of big actors.
[00:01:31] Angela: Melissa mcCarthy, whatever that guy’s name who’s from like Boardwalk Empire and like all these huge, the tall guy who plays a football ex-football player
[00:01:41] Jesse: Oh, yeah.
[00:01:42] Angela: He’s like super famous. And then anyways, there’s like a shit ton of famous people in it. Um, so you’re like, okay, a list cast must be something. Right.
[00:01:51] Angela: Um, and then I remember I watched the preview and I was like, what is this? Because it’s like, Nicole Kidman walks in or like hippie mysterious hippy, beautiful goddess. And she’s like, I’m here to cure you. I’m like, what is this? It’s about drugs, for sure. Um, and basically it’s like this really fancy, luxurious retreat spa retreat thing, but no one really knows what they’ve signed up for.
[00:02:18] Angela: And like spoiler alert, essentially, they get like, kind of, um, unknowingly dosed with mushrooms. Um, psilocybin and I think other things later on as well, uh, but basically, yeah, it’s this kind of. It’s a little kooky, the show. Um, and they got a lot of things wrong. Like I think I’m just diving right in from the plot synopsis onward, but I read a bunch of, I mean, I was fascinated because I obviously I did some of these retreats and not to the same level of like, uh, extravagance as they had on the show.
[00:02:55] Angela: That was kind of crazy just for rich people kind of thing. But, um, so I was curious as to it, to see if they would like, get it kind of right. It’s not a lot of people like other psychiatrists and like people who use psilocybin for like real, you know, medicinal and therapeutic purposes wrote up a bunch of articles afterwards.
[00:03:17] Angela: And they’re like, you know, I mean, I guess it’s good that they’re, they did show some like positive benefits to using the medicine to go like process trauma and like past bullshit, but they’re like number one rule. If you were actually like a practicing facilitator is that you would never, without the person’s consent give them this medicine. So that was like the first big no-no.
[00:03:42] Jesse: Also like, there’s a part where she partakes in, in the substances with the people that she’s supposed to be leading them on a journey on. And she’s like, I’m so I’m so committed to you guys to make this work that I want to do it with you. And I was like, no, like that’s the worst thing that you could possibly do. Like, like I think there are some general rules regarding um, harm reduction when you’re doing substances, it’s like always do less than you think you should do, because you can always do more and you should always try new things for the first time in like a really safe environment with a babysitter that’s not doing the same thing. And so it’s like rules number one and two are like completely shattered as you, as you go through the series. But yeah, it does get like pretty, pretty nutso.
[00:04:34] Angela: Well, and let’s back it up a little bit, because we did have a, we’ve had a previous episode where we’ve talked about our respective experiences with substances and we’ve used them for different purposes and we’ll get into that.
[00:04:48] Angela: Um, but for those who aren’t aware, because it is like, Some people are like becoming more familiar. Other people still kind of don’t know too much about the prop, like potential of psychedelic medicines. Um, so there’s definitely like party potential, which we can discuss. And then there’s also like therapeutic purposes and it’s becoming it’s legal in some states and counties. Um, for example, it’s legal in Oakland and the bay area, um, where my practicing person is based out of. Um, and it’s, it’s been shown to have like actual proven benefit on trauma. Things like PTSD, like depression you know, really hard things to get through that. Like, usually it would require a lot of years of therapy or like being on big pharma drugs for a long time.
[00:05:48] Angela: You know, things you don’t really know. Um, and so from that respect, I’m happy that this show exists because even though it was like kinda out there and like painted some things in a negative light, they did show it like there is real benefit that can be had here.
[00:06:04] Jesse: That’s a really good point because when, and when we’ve talked about this before, like growing up how substances are positioned in like, uh, you know, your normal education is that they’re dangerous. You don’t want to do them. And that’s always like, it’s a whole, it’s the whole idea behind like teaching apps, absence only as a way as a way for, to not have as a way of birth control. It’s like, it’s just not effective. Like eventually people will figure, like, be in the situation where they have to make the choice of whether or not to do the substance.
[00:06:34] Jesse: And it’s better that they understand what are the rules to doing something safely rather than to not understand what to do at all when they’re, when they’re in that particular situation. So yeah, it does. I, it is really great to showcase it in a light other than it’s like, just something dangerous or like you shouldn’t ever do it.
[00:06:53] Jesse: And, and it’s interesting because, uh, many of the characters have that reaction at first when they find out that she’s dosing them. Yeah. We don’t want to do this. Like, we don’t do drugs. Like this is not us. And then I think as they reflect on their journey so far with the substance, they decide they opt in, they make the step to say like, okay, I’m going to continue this treatment.
[00:07:15] Angela: Yeah. And I will offer, like, I think one of the big reasons that those characters did eventually opt in and that people in real life opt in to these kinds of things is that if you’ve ever experienced. In some way, you know, that like one of the biggest kind of benefits in the moment is that it like reduces your inhibitions of you’re like not so concerned about, you know, how you look, what other people think about you?
[00:07:44] Angela: Like all the, like past grudges that you’ve had, all this kind of baggage that weighs us down on like a daily basis. That kind of dissipates when you’re on these types of medicines, because it really just allows you to, well, you know, for depending on what your environment is and how you’re using it for, if it’s for some sort of like therapeutic purpose, it is like, it takes you so inward that you were just like connecting deeply with what your true thoughts and beliefs are, um, not hindered by like the surface level bullshit that we tend to grasp onto tightly on a daily basis.
[00:08:24] Jesse: Yeah. And I will say like, I, from my experience, how it, how it plays out for me is like, when I’m on certain things, it makes me so present. And like, it’s not just that sometimes.
[00:08:37] Jesse: Um, you’re thinking about like, what other people, how other people might perceive you. But even, even sometimes I’ve noticed in therapy and stuff. Like I’m not even aware, you’re not even aware you’re holding back. Like you’re holding yourself back and you don’t know it. And both what I’ve noticed is when you’re so hyper present on some of these substances, when you do that, it creates just like a little bit of dissonance.
[00:09:02] Jesse: But you’re so aware of what’s happening in your body and your feeling in your mind that you’re, you can immediately, oh, wait, something feels a little off and then you can pick up on what that is like much more quickly with much more clarity than, than you normally are with all of your life, thinking about your schedule and what people, dah, dah, dah, and all that stuff.
[00:09:20] Jesse: So, yeah, I definitely agree like it, that that power to ground you in the present helps you really notice your own positive and negative emotions much more effectively.
[00:09:32] Angela: Yes. Yeah. It’s also something I’m like, I’m often jealous of that. I can’t like figure out off the substances, you know, like just in like daily life. Right? Because we are then so obsessed with like, I’m obsessed with like being right in this argument that I’m having versus like peeling that back, that pride back and like being like, why am I actually mad right now? It’s just like hitting a cord of some past, like, you know, thing that happened to me that I’m carrying into this conversation.
[00:10:02] Jesse: And I think it’s, it’s also like, it’s hard to, there was a moment the other day where I just had like, uh, like I was having a good day and then like I started doing, I started working out and then I just started to feel really down. And it’s even really hard sometimes to explain what that actually is, where you’re feeling down.
[00:10:25] Jesse: Just your sad. Is it anguish? Is it desperation? Is it depression? And it’s so hard to consciously feel into what that is because naturally it’s something you want to shy away from, right? Because it’s such a negative feeling and you’re like, I don’t really want to explore this much further. And I think that’s what makes it, what makes it really hard to do.
[00:10:45] Jesse: And I really had to like sit there and be like, Ugh, God, this sucks. Like, why is it, what is it? What is it? This like, which of these words is it that I’m feeling. I mean it’s, it’s hard work. Yeah.
[00:10:57] Angela: Yeah. Um, we’ve both received clear benefit from having tried different substances. Um, and I think something that we wanted to talk about was why we feel like the perception around drugs.
[00:11:11] Angela: This catch-all word of drugs, um, is so negative in today’s society or has been for decades. Um, when number one, that word just like is so far reaching. It like encompasses so many, very different types of substances that it’s kind of not fair to attach this, like clearly negative associated word with every single thing that has some effect on your brain on your body, on your whatever. Right? Um, so I think that’s number one. It’s like, it’s all miscategorized to begin with. I think there should be like a different word that is, um, associated with things that are like, quote unquote bad versus things that have actual like potential benefit. So for example, I think, you know, when we were growing up obviously marijuana had like a different reputation back then and was being villanized and it’s, you know, now times are changing. People are seeing the benefit of that, but that was one of like the main, like bad drugs back in the day. Um, but the things that persists that are like clearly bad for people are like alcohol.
[00:12:30] Angela: Yeah. Tobacco heroin, you know, there’s like real bad drugs. I would say.
[00:12:37] Jesse: That’s not legal though?
[00:12:39] Angela: I’m not talking about legal stuff. Oh you want to talk about legal stuff? I just finished the series. Dope sick also Hulu original, Oxycontin is a fucking, you know, murder, murder, drug. Um, and that’s legal, you know, but I’m not talking about legal.
[00:12:55] Angela: I’m just talking about like anything that can be called a drug. Right? And there’s like, clearly, seriously bad shit. And then it’s like, you, you’re going to throw in like drugs that have been proven to cure PTSD and trauma big and small in the same category? I just think that’s like unfair to have the same name attached to it.
[00:13:19] Jesse: Yeah, I do. I agree with you. And I think that the way that- the way that scheduling. So the different schedules of drugs works is so antiquated and it doesn’t really make sense. And the foundation of it is kind of like flawed because, and y’all can fact check me on this, but I kind of understood like this whole war on drugs thing came out of like um, in the 1960s, they came on the federal government’s push to try to ostracize the whole like hippie youth movement because they were pushing back against what the federal government was doing abroad militarily. And so at the root of it, the whole scheduling and, um, illegalization of drugs to begin with was never about protecting people from anything.
[00:14:08] Jesse: It was like a political agenda. So then you have this system that’s built on that and people just keep adding to it. So it’s like a fiction that eventually evolved itself into like a hard, fact. And of course like, because people are thinking about it that way, it becomes the case where people are like, oh, it’s all just drugs and it’s all just bad.
[00:14:29] Angela: Yeah. Well you tell a lie enough times it sounds like the truth. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree. The government thing and like corruption and, um, a hidden agendas is such a big piece of like how the drug industry is currently working. I swear to God. Hulu is like upping their game so hard. All these shows, but Dope Sick was incredible. Highly recommended. It’s so fucking good, but, um, that that’s, uh, you know, look into big pharma and Oxycontin, and it’s just like government in bed with big pharma. You know, there’s so many reasons why the drug, the legal drugs that exist today are what they are. And a lot of times it just has to do with like, who’s gonna make the most money.
[00:15:15] Angela: And who’s giving kickbacks to, you know, government or former government officials who have power. As opposed to like, what’s actually beneficial for people. Um, so that’s just like, it’s so sad that the case.
[00:15:29] Jesse: Yeah. And the rub of it is that like, because these, because many of the substances that we’ve talked about in the past are on the most restrictive schedule, you can’t even use it for research purposes to prove that they have benefits for people.
[00:15:45] Angela: Talking about kind of like this unfair classification and then it’s accessibility or lack thereof to people in general and specifically communities.
[00:15:56] Angela: I mean, certainly we’re not historians, but we we’ve come across some things here and there about the history of drugs and how they’ve evolved. And I think one thing that bothers me is, um, you know, through watching like certain documentaries and whatnot, the drug war on drugs, like kind of evolved into also making it different, depending on which class of people you are, like what access to drugs you have, and then thereby what punishment you would get. Um, and so one of the things that like always stuck out to me was the difference between cocaine and crack. And I read, it was part of, um, a book I read right after the George Floyd incident, it was called, uh, it’s called Biased, I think. Um, but it was written by a, um, uh, professor of psychology and she was like, oh, yeah well, the cocaine versus crack thing was essentially, it’s just like, oh, give all the crack to the poor black communities and give cocaine to the white communities and give cocaine this, like slap on the wrist punishment, but give crack users like jail for life type of punishment, even though they are at the core of the same substance, it’s essentially, one’s like more refined, I guess?
[00:17:20] Angela: Right? So they, it costs more. So the cocaine versus like the cheaper version for poor people. Yeah.
[00:17:26] Jesse: Yeah. I know it is an, even when you’re talking about the same substance, like depending on your race and your social class economically, you can get very different punishments. Like if you think about oh, the whole, the whole stereotype of that, like white reefer bro in college, that person is never going to jail for that.
[00:17:48] Jesse: But if you think about like a black person being caught possessed with marijuana, they’re probably going to go to jail for that. So even within the same class quality of substances, how people are penalized for having access to them wildly, wildly, um, different, which is why it’s such a, you know, when I stumbled across the partying scene, it was like, so strange to me at first because you, because everybody that almost everyone that I’ve encountered so far is of a comfortable or like ultra comfortable, um, uh, economic class.
[00:18:28] Jesse: And the access that we have is basically like not unlimited, but there’s like not really a restriction. I have not heard of anyone being penalized severely in any way or even potentially caught. So it’s kind of just like, there’s this hidden, permissability like you’re protected if you have a certain amount of influence monetarily, and then if you don’t, you’re kind of just like screwed.
[00:18:57] Angela: Yes. Yeah. I mean, there are so many things to unpack there. I feel like when it comes to the substances that we’re using, the ones that have like more psychedelic, um, type properties, I think there’s even like another level, which is that they cost more. But also it’s not desirable. It’s not being like marketed, you know, word of mouth wise, too um, socioeconomic classes that are like on the lower end, because it’s not the kind of stuff that like gets you to, I mean, it’ll give you a high, but it’s not necessarily known for being like a great high every time. Um, which is often the reason that people will do some of those like worst drugs, like heroin or whatever it is, because you’re just like, you know, that you’re going to get like out of your mind and like out of your current situation, um, psychedelics have the potential of giving you a really good time or like a really bad time, depending on where your mindset’s at. Um, so I don’t think I’m not even sure, like people on the lower, you know, poor people essentially are aware of psychedelics or want psychedelics to begin with.
[00:20:10] Jesse: That’s a real, you know, that’s a really interesting question and I wish that we could talk to somebody who had that experience, but like, I remember I had a conversation with my, my ex barber, the barber at the time. Um, and he’s, he was pretty young. He’s like 21, 22. And he would talk to me all about that all, all the time about like smoking marijuana, blah, blah, blah.
[00:20:31] Jesse: And I would tell him like I would go out and party and all that stuff. And he’s like, oh yeah, I could never do that stuff. It’s like, so scary. I feel like I would be turned into somebody else. So I feel like even amongst people who are more like, I can’t say my barber’s like working class, but it’s a more like a menial job. Right? And so even among those people, I wonder if they. Uh, that class of people, like, I wonder if, even if they think of those drugs as something dangerous, like, because they’re because of the negativity associated with it. And then like also whenever there’s like a high profile incident related to drugs, it’s always like something that’s something related to that, like ecstasy or Molly or something, something like that, where it’s really visible for people.
[00:21:17] Jesse: And then it like scares them off. So I don’t even know if they would be interested as you mentioned.
[00:21:23] Angela: I think there’s a lot of misconception around these types of substances. Oftentimes when there is like a negative high profile thing, it’s not just what that substance it’s like, it was cut with something else or yeah, because I mean, ecstasy is a different thing because MDMA is a chemical, you know, chemically created thing versus like psilocybin. I never know how to pronounce it, but anyways, like mushrooms or ayahuasca for example, are from mother earth it’s from the planet with like no artificial stuff done to it.
[00:21:58] Angela: So you actually. At least for those drugs, you cannot overdose. It’s impossible to overdose. Actually. You can have a really high dose and have like a really deep trip, but you can’t die from it. You can’t like it’s impossible actually. So if something bad happens, like the, the bad shit you always hear is like, someone killed themselves after they like did ayahuasca or whatever. Right. That’s because they were mentally unstable going into it and actually unlike Nine Perfect Strangers before you do these types of substances for therapeutic purposes. Cause that’s when you’re doing like super high doses, um, you get screened, hardcore, hardcore. Like I got screened prior to arriving, um, you know, like weeks before then I got there, I’m already fucking there. Right. And they’re like, we need to talk to each person for like 30 more minutes. Yeah. The Peru trip. And they asked you all about like your past history and like what trauma you may or may not be bringing in. Have you had suicidal thoughts? Like, because all this stuff. It doesn’t necessarily kick you out, but like, if you do have that history, they have to take extra care because if you’re exactly, it’s honestly, the stuff is like, it’s kind of like surgery on your mind, right?
[00:23:21] Angela: Not your brain, like your mind and your spirit. And so if that’s fucked up in a way that like, can turn really negative. That needs to be addressed versus like, just like free for all kind of thing. And that is where a chaos could happen. But like, I would guess that the people who hear like really bad things is because they hear it from like a friend or a friend, a friend, a friend who done it out of the wrong context altogether or mixed with something else that makes it like impure.
[00:23:52] Angela: And then they’re not in the right mindset when they take it. So then they have a shitty experience. And then they tell everyone they know don’t ever do this thing. Right. As opposed to anyone who’s ever done it for a therapeutic purpose has heard the phrase set and setting. So you have to have the right mindset and you have to have the right setting the environment that you take it in. And if either of those things are off, you are fucked. So if someone was like, oh, I’m just going to take shrooms. And they’re like in a chaotic environment, they have like, no, you know, mental, emotional preparation to like dig deep. They’re going to have a bad fucking time.
[00:24:30] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah, I think that really, so there’s this trope, I think, from the sixties to keep people away from doing acid cause that was a big thing. And it was like, girl took acid and like jumped out the second story window or something like that of her house. And it’s just so funny because like, that, I that’s just like, generally not the experience, like thinking about being on acid and then doing something like that seems so much that you would never, like, if you’ve done acid, you’d be like, I would never, never do that.
[00:25:05] Jesse: Um, so there’s definitely a lot of, like, I think fear-mongering around that. And then like, to your point, like with a lot of the psychedelics, like you can’t overdose really, and those drugs don’t directly cause, like they don’t cause you bodily harm. Like you’re not going to somehow, like your heart’s not going to stop like your liver is not gonna fail. Where, where you, you can cause harm, as you mentioned is like, you can, if you take a lot of psychedelics, you can. You can have temporary psychosis, like temporary out of your mind. And especially if you already have a mental illness, are you already using some other, uh, prescription substance or somebody can really fuck around with you?
[00:25:44] Jesse: Like in Nine Perfect Strangers, Carmel. She went crazy. Like, so there’s this character, um, who was on uh, what was it called? Psychotropics or something? So it was an anti-psychotic medications and they put her on the, the like, um, cocktail of like mushrooms and acid. And she just went like nuts and like, uh, it was a little, a little dangerous.
[00:26:09] Angela: that’s a huge no-no.
[00:26:10] Jesse: That is also one of the harm reduction things is to make sure whatever you’re taking is not contra indicated by something else that you’re already on. So for example, if you are on SSRIs or MAOIs for depression, you can’t really do Molly. Like it won’t really do anything for you. And in fact, like it could be potentially harmful if you’re combining the things.
[00:26:33] Jesse: So it’s always really important to, um, verify that you’re not doing anything that’s dangerous together.
[00:26:39] Angela: I’ve never had a question. The source of the substance I’m taking and the people I’m working with always have screeners. Like we were just talking about like, are you on other drugs, um, medicines, you know, prescribed medicines or whatever.
[00:26:53] Angela: Right. They always ask you, like, what else have you taken? Or what do you take daily? Like that kind of stuff, because they, they would definitely you know, raise flags or like cancel whatever you had planned, if it is going to negatively combine in a way that no one wants that’s right.
[00:27:11] Jesse: I will say something that is, um, so like one random tangent and one thing that was coming off of that is that like, I do think that a lot of people are really like a little bit too trustful of their sources.
[00:27:27] Jesse: And this is like, um, demonstrated by recently the cocaine that’s been sold in New York city. A lot of it’s been laced with fentanyl and like a lot of people in the gay community, even being like messaging people, like do not like buy the stuff off the streets, like without testing it, because it could have fentanyl in it.
[00:27:46] Jesse: And one of the things that I’ve noticed is that most people kind of just like take the word of whoever they’re buying the substances from like the whole word of mouth thing as is, um, as like the stuff is safe, but the things that your dealer can get, whatever they’re getting from a number of different sources and that source could change or they could get a batch that’s not great. So one of the things that’s also really important that I don’t think many people do is to buy your own testing kits like reagent kit. So you can test all your substances. It doesn’t tell you like the density of the material that you have. So like, if you get a pill or something, it won’t tell you like, this is like, oh, a hundred percent of that.
[00:28:28] Jesse: Or like 80% of that. But at least you can see based off of the reactions, whether or not it is at least the class of substance that you intended to buy versus something completely different. And whenever I have stuff, I always test it because you never know where it’s coming from. Like, what’s touched it.
[00:28:45] Jesse: Like who’s been involved in the production of it. So, that’s also something that’s very, I think from harm, harm, reduction perspective, like really important to do to make sure you’re not just another safety to make sure you’re ingesting, like what you think you thought you got. The intention of how people access drugs really affects their relationship to it.
[00:29:06] Jesse: And I think no matter which socioeconomic class you’re in, if you’re in a bad place and your reaching out to drugs as a way to patch a problem in your life, it’s going to become a problem in your life. And I think that what it has, what, what it tends to do is exactly exacerbates problems in people’s lives, where they already have a lot of problems.
[00:29:34] Jesse: And that tends to be people who have less means, right. And they’re using these substances as a way to escape their current reality. And so I also think that it inherently is a little unfair because like where we’re using it to do things like achieve self-actualization or like find inner truths, or like just enhance our daily fun.
[00:29:58] Jesse: And for some people, like it’s something that they’re using to plug like problems in their lives. And, um, I, and I do think that that is what causes some of the – some of the attribution of drugs is like something really bad because people only think about it like that, where it’s like, oh, I’m using it to like escape some facet of my life that I really dislike or like cannot change.
[00:30:24] Jesse: But it doesn’t have, have to be like that. Like your relationship with drugs can be positive, just like your relationship with any people, like your relationship with any person can be really great or really bad, depending on your intention and like how you feel towards that relationship.
[00:30:37] Angela: Yes, absolutely.
[00:30:39] Angela: Yeah. The, the, using it as a form of escape versus to find inner truths on whatever. I, I completely echo that. And I think that also goes back to why. People who have heard of bad trips say that and like, uh, have, uh, you know, visceral like antagonism towards psychedelic type drugs is because it’s a completely opposite way of how they’ve thought of using drugs, because even marijuana, which is legal and has good things for sure is a dissociative.
[00:31:15] Angela: So it is to help you kind of like disconnect from your everyday life. Although not in as harmful of a way as like meth and other shit like that. Um, versus psychedelics is completely turning inward, um, and you cannot escape yourself during that experience. So it is very scary if you’re not ready to turn inward, which a lot of people aren’t ready to
[00:31:42] Jesse: Or if you’re feeling destructive about your life. I mean, like if you, if you go into any substance, trying to use it to be destructive like to your life, to yourself, to anyone else. That’s what it’s going to do. Like if you drink destructively, it’ll destroy your life. If you smoke destructively, it’ll destroy your life. If you use psychedelics destructively, I’m sure it’ll destroy your life because you’re going to be, you’re just going to be forcing yourself into all of those terrible things, those intentions that you came into doing the substance with.
[00:32:13] Jesse: And so I think that that is a huge, um, Uh, huge, like a different way of thinking, uh, thinking about it then I think most people think about, because most people think drugs bad, but it’s not the drugs themselves necessarily they’re bad, but how people want their relationship to be with the drugs, because you could have a positive relationship with substances.
[00:32:34] Angela: And then the last thing I want to say about accessibility is kind of like crystal balling. I think we do this quite frequently, but I, I personally have had so many like insights and benefits to having psychedelic experiences from like a therapeutic setting. And as we talked about it is changing. Like there are clinical studies happening now, and I don’t know if you’ve seen, but there’s actually like, um, I’ve been getting served ads, which is like indicative of who they think their target audience is. But, um, I’ve been getting served ads where, um, there’s like a uh, you can get like a virtual therapist essentially to prescribe you ketamine and to facilitate ketamine induced sessions with you. Um, and it’s legal obviously because they were advertising it on like Facebook and Instagram. Um, and so I think it’s, you know, location-based, it was probably like based on where I was viewing, um, the platform at the time, but it’s rolling out that it’s like being more accessible, although it’s still incredibly expensive. And so I wanted to talk about like, if you think, and if you think yes, when you think this type of access from like a therapeutic standing is going to become more accessible to your every day person. Because I constantly think about how lucky I am that I have that kind of access that most people do not.
[00:34:09] Jesse: I want to say never. I mean, like. Never say never, but we’ve talked about mental health in the past. And generally speaking while it’s become a much more popular topic and less stigmatized in the American public, from the medical coverage perspective it is still probably -like if I look at my health insurance plans, it’s probably the weakest and least covered thing that I have in there.
[00:34:40] Jesse: Um, mental health, mental health. Yeah, because, and I want to make a distinction between, um, preventative health, as we’ve talked about, which is like therapy, um, working through your emotions before they come to a head and, uh, repairative health, which is like psychiatric coverage, like psychiatric coverage, I think is covered really well.
[00:35:02] Jesse: But that’s like, when you. That’s like, you know, I think we both agree. Like I think you’re definitely, you’re more like Eastern medicine focus and like, we both believe in some of those things, but where we align is that I don’t agree necessarily like if you’re depressed, the right answer is to go to a psychiatrist and get antidepressants right away.
[00:35:22] Jesse: It is a solution, but it’s not the only solution. And for me, it’s like, if you could solve a problem without medication it’s probably safer to do it that way. You know, you never know like how long-term medication will affect you. Um, and it, I think it’s very telling to see that the system will support payments towards fixing the problem, but not towards preventing the problem.
[00:35:47] Jesse: And I think that’s the main problem right now is that therapy and these kinds of treatments aren’t seen as preventative uh, things that could impact your physical health. And so they’re not covered. And so if we’re talking about us who are working in like high tech jobs with relatively good insurance, like the fact that we don’t have that coverage means that most people won’t.
[00:36:14] Jesse: And like, even for me, when I’m trying to find therapists- impossible to find it in, in network, therapist. And it’s because the insurance pays them so little for their services. So they’re like, fuck it. We’re not going to take the insurance. You’re going to pay me the full, the full session fee. Um, and so for me, I think it will be really, really difficult for everyone, for me to envision a situation where everyone will have access to some kind of advanced preventative therapy like that when they can’t even get access to basic preventative mental health stuff.
[00:36:47] Angela: Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Um, wow. Yeah. Our health insurance system is completely broken, completely broken. And when you said, like to fix a problem, rather than prevent it, they don’t even fix the problem. It’s a patchwork thing.
[00:37:02] Jesse: Well, you know, you fix it because you fixed the, the symptoms of it, but you don’t treat the underlying problem.
[00:37:08] Angela: Yes, exactly. I think I agree with you from a health insurance standpoint, I’m like getting things covered. I hope that like access in terms of like how you have the option to go see a therapist and pay full out of pocket. Um, I think that kind of access, I hope will exist. Um, if someone, if anyone is willing to pay totally out of pocket, they could get access to like a psychedelic therapeutic treatment, hopefully in the next 50 years is what I hope, because right now it’s like very few and far between that you could even get that access if you want it to pay for it. But that doesn’t mean it’s fair yet either if it still costs, like, I don’t know, 200 plus a session or whatever, that’s incredibly in accessible to most people, but at least I would hope that the first step being that it’s like coverage wise of like available around the country.
[00:38:12] Angela: I hope in the next, like 50 years.
[00:38:14] Jesse: That anyone anyone can access it.
[00:38:16] Jesse: Okay. Yeah. Got it. Okay. So we’re going to transition over into the Fortune Cookie section of the pod, because we always like to end on a sweet treat and I guess we should pick one thing to evangelize and what we think it’s why we think it would be good for the world?
[00:38:33] Angela: You mean one substance?
[00:38:35] Jesse: Yeah. Um, maybe I’ll go. I haven’t tried all of the substance, but I have sampled different ones. Um, I would say probably what’s the easiest and most accessible and what will bring like quick joy to people’s lives is probably MDMA. Like it, I don’t think I’ve ever talked to anyone who took MDMA and didn’t have a good time.
[00:39:04] Jesse: And like, didn’t love being in that experience. Of course, like I’ve talked to people where like, okay, I did it and then I have like suicide Tuesdays afterwards. It’s like, when you come down from all the serotonin and you just feel blah, um, but for the most part, everybody I’ve talked to has been like, great!
[00:39:21] Jesse: And um, for me, it definitely made me open my heart a little bit more. And I, and it’s, it’s very common with this substances that like, it doesn’t last forever. Right? Cause then your, your daily life kind of like sucks that feeling out of you, but it does give you like a little bit of like internal energy and love for a good amount of time.
[00:39:46] Jesse: And, um, it’s pretty risk-free if you don’t have any heart conditions. So I would say like, I think it would bring the biggest benefit to people around the world, because what I feel is the biggest problem with people around the world is like lack of love and empathy towards others. And this is something that can really open that up in everybody so that you can like better connect to other people.
[00:40:12] Angela: Lovely.
[00:40:13] Jesse: I just want everyone to do Molly and have fun.
[00:40:18] Angela: Um, well, I completely agree with you. MDMA has a very fond place in my heart in terms of the therapeutic sessions that I’ve had. It’s one of my favorites that I’ve had as well, because it is completely love-based and it is so easy to like, like you said, it’s like the easiest entry point, right?
[00:40:38] Angela: It’s like, you shouldn’t have any fear that you’re going to have a bad trip because you’re not going to have a bad trip. Yeah. You’re only going to be super positive and like, feel completely accepted. So I agree with you, but I guess I have to say something different so that we have variety in what we’re saying.
[00:40:55] Angela: You know, on the complete flip side, I will say ayahuasca because it’s not as accessible, um, for many reasons. And in some ways it is -so actually we didn’t tap into this, but one of the things I find a little ironic in terms of like the accessibility factor is like, uh, things like ayahuasca and mushrooms come from very ancient, like rituals from indigenous people that have been around for forever. And so the substances traditionally have only been accessible to like local people from those areas. And they’re not rich people. It’s just like, you know, the like shaman in these tribes. And then they facilitate for like the rest of the tribe kind of thing.
[00:41:43] Angela: And so, uh, from that respect, it’s like hyper accessible. So if you are from like the Amazonian area or like Mexico is where a lot of the mushroom, um, rituals first came from, you know, anyways off track. But, um, ayahuasca, I think is, would have the, one of the biggest benefits for people if they were willing to accept it because it is one of the hardest substances for people to say like, yeah, I’m going to go in because even if you have like a positive, um, hope for what you’ll get out of, uh, psychedelics, ayahuasca has this reputation as being like truly jumping into the deep end and it is, um, but that is because it also has the potential to pull out like the biggest insights and to help you work through the biggest traumas that you have, and we’re going into woo-hoo territory completely here, but also if you are kind of like open to that, that aspect ayahuasca is the one that you will feel the most connected to like mother earth and the like oneness of everything. Every living thing, um, psilocybin mushrooms has similar properties. They’re both psychedelics. DMT is still like the same active base of both, but each one has like a different kind of personality attached to it. You will feel. Uh, mushrooms are kind of like fucking Rascals over here. Like they will kind of like, fuck with you a little bit.
[00:43:19] Angela: Like, you will feel like there’s some like person like the character in here like fucking with my, my thoughts over here. And then like their little, you know, Rascals really. They’re kind of like they are trying to like exert power and like, um, be entertained a little bit there’s themselves versus like, ayahuasca the spirit of the drug has always been referred to as like mother ayahuasca and it’s almost like mother, mother earth as well, right? So there’s this like maternal figure that is wanting you to have these breakthroughs and to help like embrace you to get these things off your chest. And so it will take you to like the deepest fucking corners of your traumas, but you will come out, you know, completely just like with insights that you couldn’t have gotten to otherwise. I think MDMA, I definitely got through many insights as well, but it just wasn’t as, it’s not as deep because you also don’t suffer as much. You don’t suffer at all with MDMA.
[00:44:25] Jesse: There’s not work involved, but I think the key part of what you’re saying is there’s work involved.
[00:44:32] Angela: So much work, so much work, but the reward is worth it.
[00:44:36] Angela: Um, and that’s why every year, you know, um, places like Peru and other countries along the Amazon that have access to ayahuasca, that is one of their main tourism like channels is people wanting to do psychedelic, uh, retreats there because there is this draw to like you know, I think some people go to it because they’re so desperate.
[00:44:59] Angela: Like maybe they have tried like, uh, years of therapy and like pharma drugs and nothing has worked, or they’re just like more spiritual and like open to that stuff. But like those who are ready to jump into the deep end and then what they get out of it, it’s just like, you can’t compare. So I, if people had like the openness and willingness to try ayahuasca, I would say.
[00:45:23] Angela: It’ll change your life and you will not be addicted because I think, like we said, all those like bad drugs it’s because addiction is also like a major factor of those, right. You’re trying to, you’re using it to escape and then you get addicted to that thing. Ayahuasca and psychedelics you will not get addicted because there was so much work involved emotionally and mentally that you’re going to be wrecked afterwards.
[00:45:49] Angela: You’re like, you’re going to be spent from like an emotional standpoint and you’re like, I need 10 years away from this thing. So, but like the insights you get will, will span, you know, those 10 years it’ll be worth it. So yeah, if people, were willing to.
[00:46:05] Jesse: I mean, I’ve never done ayahuasca but I can definitely corroborate that like psychedelics is work.
[00:46:10] Jesse: Like it takes a lot to process what your brain is doing and it’s not, it’s fun, but it’s not something that you want to do, like all the time. Like skydiving. It’s fun to do, like once every year, a couple of years, but you’re not going to do it like every day. And it’s a thrill but you’re not going to do it every day.
[00:46:31] Angela: Yeah. I mean some people might, those adrenaline junkies. That’s different. That’s a whole other addiction.
[00:46:38] Jesse: That’s the case for anything, some people might do anything all the time.
[00:46:43] Angela: Well, I swear to God, you will not do ayahuasca every day.
[00:46:46] Jesse: I’m sure there’s somebody who’s like micro-dosing ayahuasca all the time.
[00:46:51] Angela: Ah, okay. More power, more power to you person out there.
[00:46:56] Jesse: Well listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, if you have something to tell us about your own personal feelings about substances, your own experiences, or you just have some questions about how our own experiences went? Please feel free to write us in at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com. the you’re is y-o-u-r-e.
[00:47:15] Angela: Yup. And come back next week because we’ll have another fresh episode for you then. And until then bitches.