Jesse Lin 0:14
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s Pride Month in June. So we’re doing a pride oriented episode where we talk about all things gay and what that means to all of us and to help us explore all the different spectrums of a rainbow. We have a special guest joining us today, Tong.
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Tong 0:33
Thank you, Jesse. Hi, everyone. My name is Tom Zang. I’m here to provide some diversified perspective in the LGBT community. I consider myself a lesbians. Actually, I don’t know like a bisexual I don’t know how to like really define myself but like, I’m happily married with my partner and currently live in Redwood City and California. I know Angela through work and just know that she’s an awesome person, and would love to share my perspective on the special occasion. So glad to be here.
Angela Lin 1:06
Yeah, Tom is one of my favorite ex co workers, so really happy to have her on. So we have the two of you are bringing different queer perspectives. Pride means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So I think we wanted to start off this episode by asking, what exactly does pride mean to you?
Jesse Lin 1:26
For me, I just feel like pride means to celebrate yourself and just be unabashedly like who you are. And being gay is part of that. And that’s worth celebrating. But I think it’s also worth celebrating all parts of you that make you the person that you are including being gay. And when I was younger, it was like not really that much thinking for me in terms of where things were for the LGBT community just like 50 years ago and like all the work that has been done to get us to where we are now, but now that I’m older and we’re seeing all these kind of social movements Pride more and more means like thinking back about also like how hard people worked and fought to get the rights that we have today so that we can go out to bars and socialize with gay people without being scrutinized, like we can exist in society without having to defend our existence, like constantly on the same kind of level that the people in the past it it’s about remembering that as well.
Tong 2:21
Yeah, I think the accepting who you are elements really resonate a lot with me, I think my journey of discovering who I am and then accepting my identity as a lesbian come later in life because I actually grew up in China and then didn’t have a lot of exposure earlier in my life. And then once I discovered that aspect of myself, I think pride meaning is a constant journey of accepting who I am, and then discovering that element and what does it mean to be me and how do I fit back to my family, my culture and also what kind of life do I want to live going forward and I think to justice point of really remembering the people who fought for you before and then why we can have this current society like with the support that we have and celebrating for me is also really precious to be able to live in California where I can be openly gay and to you know walk on the street with my partner and just don’t feel like I need to be self aware of maybe I’m different
Angela Lin 3:29
Guys I screwed up but goosebumps from your answers like I feel so tinglies I love it. Yeah, cuz obviously I’m just bringing the ignorant straight person view to this episode but for me I just like haven’t spent that time to like deeply think about what the pride celebrations mean on those so many different layers that you guys just laid out. For me. It’s just like it’s always seems like it’s just this huge happy celebration like always brings me a lot of joy. To see all the people just like being themselves in the streets and like letting loose and it always feels like there’s a lot of love in that environment. So I’ve always associated it with just like a lot of positivity, love and excitement and energy. But for you guys, that means so much more because of like the history of what it’s taken to get you guys to be in a more equal state then you’ve been in the past, so very cool.
I think in order to talk about sexual identity, there is this broader topic of sex, dating, the concepts that we were raised around given our cultural upbringings as being Taiwanese and Chinese. So let’s start off first with the way that we were brought up by our parents, and how that’s affected the way that we look at sex. My perspective is that in general, it was just like, something you don’t talk about, even though it’s like, you all know this thing exists. And that’s where babies come from, but like, let’s just play ignorance is bliss and like, never discuss it.
Jesse Lin 5:40
Maybe there was like one conversation about how to stay away from like, inappropriate materials. And that was basically
Like, basically like pornography. They’re like, Don’t look at pornography
Tong 5:53
Yeah, like my parents is so funny. Growing up, I will have like this question like, where do I come from, and there was say, oh, you’re worse out of the stone or oh, we just like got you found you outside the hospital. And that’s like literally their answers to me and sometimes I really concerned like, I might really like your kid. I don’t know what kind of like motivation or whatever. But like when I talk to my friends from China, that’s like, not uncommon for us to get these type of answers.
Angela Lin 6:23
I’ve never heard that is that the Chinese version of like, the stork dropped you off?
Tong 6:27
Yeah, like yeah, I think in the ancient literature from China like there was like this. Yeah, Monkey King, actually. So I feel like they just thought this is like a cool reference stories, but yeah, they never are willing to talk about this.
Angela Lin 6:44
Yeah, we understood that like white people have these birds and the bees type conversations with their kids, but that’s just like not not a concept that happens with Asian kids because it’s an uncomfortable topic for Asian parents, so they just don’t have it. So let’s talk about how that kind of like absent conversation and the attitudes that our parents had towards sex dating and marriage kind of affected our attitudes towards that growing up and how it might have changed since then, after we’ve like had our own life experiences. So I think one of the important things to discuss first is kind of like when you think about dating and marriage as concepts, how are they different in the US versus in Asia? My perspective is that in the US, it is like a lot of casual dating versus what I heard from like my cousins who grew up in Taiwan and like later moved here, it’s more like you’d like someone and then you like tell them you like them. And then when you agree to go on a date, then you’re like in a relationship.
Tong 7:52
Yeah, I think it’s just like a really serious I felt like before I came to the state, there’s no definition or concept of dating. To your question around growing up in China, how do I treat like dating or even marriage, those concept didn’t exist prior to college. Because all your way to like the college entrance exam, your whole goal is to study. So like it’s also viewed as like guilt in a way if you’re dating. So if you’re actually dating, everyone will think you are like a bad student.
Angela Lin 8:27
So literally no one dated in high school?
Tong 8:30
I mean, like, you cannot prohibit it from people’s feelings for each other. But I don’t think it’s a healthy way of educating what is marriage? What does it mean to be in a relationship and all the responsibility and then suddenly, we’ll get into college when you’re like 18, 19 everyone expect you to start dating. So you’re just like this huge gap of expectation is really weird.
Jesse Lin 8:53
That’s so funny because I have kind of the same experience when I was younger, like even in my teenager years like it has school when I would have like aunts and uncles visits from Taiwan, or they were just called, they would like always ask my mom like, is he dating anyone? So I, I thought what Angela said was the case where it was like they’re always dating and it’s always wholesome. And I would always get these cute little stories about how like, my cousin’s has a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and they were like, maybe like 11 or 12.
Angela Lin 9:20
Maybe it’s slightly different between Taiwan and China, then?
Tong 9:25
If the parents think you’re not serious, then it’s okay. When you are actually really serious about the relationship. That’s when there was a lot of resistance from your parents and future whether the relationship will affect you
Angela Lin 9:38
Hilarious, because I feel like my parents tried to bring some of that mentality into my life. When I was growing up. They were like, you’re not allowed to date until college. And then as soon as I started college, it just became serious. Any person you date from now on, I’m going to assume you might marry them.
Jesse Lin 9:57
You know what, it’s interesting that both of you have That experience because my parents never asked about my dating life really until like, the very end of college. And I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that I’m a man and you guys are women. When people would ask, it was easy to put it off because I would say like, I’m working on my school, my career, and it would be enough to like, satiate people for the time being.
Angela Lin 10:24
I definitely think your gender plays into it because there’s like two factors that are one is like, don’t get married too late, because then you’ll have problem with getting pregnant with children. But second is like getting pregnant early is a problem. So they want to make sure there’s zero possibility you’re gonna get teenage pregnancy or anything like that. That’s my perspective. But Tong, I don’t know if you have a different perspective from actually growing up in Asia.
Tong 10:47
Yeah, my parents and family definitely want to be nosy about everything. But because I left China, so I actually came to the states right after college. So I used to every year reason that Jesse mentioned, I was like, oh, I’m doing grad school, I need to focus. Study. And then later, I started working so far away from them so they cannot see my actual life status. So I always like use career as a shield of like not wanting to have that discussion with them.
Jesse Lin 11:20
Do you feel like that’s like changed after you started dating people honestly, like the whole dating thing from my parents have been really limited in terms of like, the more mechanical stuff like the whole birds and the bees conversation that that’s still has never happened. Really the only information that they ever gave me was that like, you’re seeing someone like just make sure that’s someone that will treat you well.
Angela Lin 11:39
The way my mom always posed sex to me was like, it is kind of mechanical, like you said, Jesse, so it’s hard to have like real conversations with my parents about relationships and definitely never sex. Because like my mom, for example, when I did start dating and I was like maybe she has advice for me. Like I then I learned actually, my dad was her first ever boyfriend and then they got married. Like, there’s nothing to draw on.
Tong 12:09
Yeah, I want to say like, I think my parents, my father’s especially they gave me a lot of freedom and autonomy to make decisions like life decisions. And I think with that, like kind of space and autonomy, they trust my decision in like, whoever I decide to be a life partner before like, that’s all before they know that I was like, gay, okay. Until then, I feel like they’re all like, pretty hands off. In terms of like, if I’m dating someone, because I think my mom was telling me whenever she talks about my relationship issues with my with my father, and he will always say, oh, like, Tong will be fine. She knows what she wants. So I feel like in a way, I was grateful for that.
Angela Lin 12:54
Now we’re transitioning into the topic of sexual identity. Let’s start with something that is most fundamental. At what point in your lives did you first know that you were attracted to a person of your same gender? Was there like an aha moment? Like, oh, why do I think that person’s cute? Or was it just like you, you just always knew is just like an underlying thing.
Tong 13:18
So my sexual awareness that I’m actually gay was pretty late, I think was when I was like 25 or 26. Almost. So that’s when I started working in New York. At the time, I was a reporter. There was this girl. She was like, openly gay. And she started really chased me in terms of like, she wanted me to be her girlfriend in a really open way. And this time, I was like, I think I refused her for three months because like, up to that point in my life, there’s no option that I like I could be dating or girl. Yeah, it’s just like not in my education and not in everything that I was brought up to. But then I like started treating her as a friend. So I friendzone her. Like we go out to eat when we go to the beach, I think like that change. It’s not like an aha moment. But it’s just like gradually I realized I care more about this person who I am with. And then the way that I’m feeling about myself when I’m around that person, it just, like, gradually added that the more I get to know her and get to know more about myself, I just thought like, yeah, there could be this possibility. I started to try to explore this concept. But immediately I got into this self denial moment and then really like, starts questioning if there’s anything wrong with myself. And I think at that time, I had a bestie in New York, like just like really randomly, she was going through the same thing. So we support each other, telling each other it’s ok, it’s totally normal. I think um, yeah. And a lot of like, reflecting on what really matters to me and a relationship and then realizing that person, the sex is not an issue for me. So I decided to give it a try. And that’s how I started my first relationship with a girl.
Angela Lin 15:20
How about you, Jesse? When was when did you first know?
Jesse Lin 15:23
You know, I was thinking really hard about this when we first discussed this, and also while Tong was talking, but honestly, I feel like when I hit puberty, and I started to, like, have a concept of what sexual attraction was, like, I feel like I always knew. And like there was never a point where I was like, attracted to girls. So for me, I don’t think I had like, I think I had an easier time than you did Tong because I never had a moment where I had to, like requestion all of my life’s attractions and like to make room for a different set of people because I feel like I always I always knew.
Angela Lin 16:00
So to that, and Tong, you already kind of talks about your process and how long it took you to accept yourself. But I’m curious about how long it took both of you to reach acceptance but also to the point where you were willing to tell other people.
Tong 16:15
For me, it was right away. Once I decided I want to give this relationship a try. I immediately told all my closest friends in China, and then the friends circle I have in New York, and just didn’t feel like if there’s a need for me to hide. Definitely, except for my parents, my folks at home. But I was pretty open and honest with everyone around me.
Angela Lin 16:40
How did that go? Was it mostly positive or did you have any like people who you wish would have taken it better and didn’t
Tong 16:47
No, I think all my friends were super supportive. I think I was really pleasantly surprised by my friends who were still in China. And then some of them even started a conversation with their parents because they know me and then what I later realize is parents can be really reasonable and open about LGBT as long as you’re not their kid. Yeah, that conversation was helpful and I was really like, you know, felt like fortunate to have all my friends to support but the family part was like a whole nother story
Angela Lin 17:24
Well, maybe we’ll get to that but I want to make sure Jesse gets to his cause I seem to remember going through this.
Jesse Lin 17:35
Yes, so many phases. Honestly, like I think I’m still working to like accept all the parts of myself and love myself as I am. When did they actually start telling people end of high school basically, is when I first started telling people and obviously I told Angela first and I didn’t even remember this but you did when I when we were discussing this but apparently I told Angela first that I was bi because I was like, still really confused about the whole thing. And I think that was just like clinging to the straightness of it all to be like, this is like the north on the compass. Like, this is what everyone else’s so like to say, like completely know, and to let go of that life raft was so terrifying that I couldn’t even be like completely honest to you about it and even to myself. But yeah, so I told Angela first then I told like a handful of other friends from high school and then from college onwards, it was basically just kind of like if anyone asked, I would tell them the truth unless I felt like uncomfortable about it. And then obviously the same with the family like some people know, some people don’t know.
Angela Lin 18:39
Yeah, let’s dig into the family piece. First, do both of your parents know? And if they do, how long did it take you to decide like I need to tell them it’s gonna be fucking hard, but I need to tell them and did you tell both of them at the same time or was there like one parent you’ve kind of trusted more than the other to take it well? How did that play out?
Tong 19:02
Jesse, you go first.
Jesse Lin 19:07
Okay, okay. Not both of my parents know only my mom knows, as far as I’m aware. And it was something that I didn’t tell her until basically, like I was about to graduate from college. And it had been sitting on my mind for a while. But there are a couple of reasons why I didn’t tell her like the first was, I wasn’t sure if she was like, ready to hear that. And so I was putting it off trying to and at that time, there was like, actually a lot, a lot of stuff going on regarding like gay rights, gay marriage, and all that stuff. So I was kind of like, trying to get a feel of like, how they’re reacting to all this news, to understand where their perspective sat on it. The second thing was, you know, was a struggle for me to accept myself as who I am. And so I think even in college, like I wasn’t so comfortable with myself yet that I felt really strongly in my position to go to my parents and be like, this is who I am. There’s no like if ands or buts about it. I don’t know. I think that there was just like I’m was scared to tell them and shatter the illusion of having a good relationship with my parents.
Angela Lin 20:12
Tong, how about you?
Tong 20:13
Yeah, so I’m thinking about the story just like makes me feel like, you know, nervous or even just like a lot of traumatic memory. So I actually dated with my first girlfriend back then for like, almost two years. And then I applied to PA school and got accepted to Stanford, which I thought was a huge personal accomplishment on my part, and then it just like with a lot of exciting things happening in my life. Somehow I just got this courage. I need to tell my parents I’m actually dating a girl and this person is so instrumental in getting into business school and supporting me to get to the next stage of my life. So I flew back to China to my stay with my family the summer before business school. And then the second to last week I’m at home, I broke the news through my mom. And to my surprise, she took it in like calmly and like was pretty receptive to that. And then we had a really like honest and deep conversation about what does happiness and good marriage mean to her. And that was the first time we had talked about all of this and I felt like she was really supportive. But then my mom actually called my dad the night I broke the news to her and then somehow in her recount of the story, my dad thought I’m gonna like go with this girl get married and like leave the family. Yeah and then like he stormed home. He was on a business trip. He decided to come back home already. And then it was not good. Yeah, so like a conversation about like me having with my mom feel like pretty proud to share my life update to be really like ready to be open with them turn into a fight from my dad. And then like a conversation turned into like, there’s so disgraceful of who I had become. And then my dad went all the way to like disowning me, and then how can he even like, go back to my grandparents that I raised a monster. So like everything happened so quickly and then that conversation just became really traumatic, like even now thinking back, I still feel the pain in me. And I remember I was sitting in the living room while he was going on with all the speech. I just felt like so – I just don’t know why I existed. Basically, I feel like all my existence prior to that was denied. And then it doesn’t make sense for me to even go to Stanford and they were like trying to get my passport taken. So all of that so like, it was like a really hard stance for me to keep fighting. And I think I made a compromise saying like, okay, let me see what can I do with it? Like I don’t want you to feel like this hurts. But then also, I was like, I didn’t know how to process all of that, basically.
Angela Lin 23:08
I feel like you’re so harsh on yourself because of the way they, you know, reacted, but I don’t think you should look at the way you presented it to them as like being impulsive. This is something that was like a big part of who you were. And that was bringing you a lot of happiness and like support in your life and you just wanted to share it with them, like coming out in general is going to be difficult for anyone. But there’s like this added layer because of our cultural upbringing of family values, prolonging the legacy of like your family’s name and like having children and honoring your lineage, that kind of stuff. So how much of the fear of bringing it up with your parents was attributed to like the cultural upbringing piece versus just like general fear of telling them something that’s not society’s definition of normal?
Jesse Lin 23:59
You know, like, we grew up In California, so the Asian upbringing was there, but I don’t think it’s as surrounding, as I think it would be if you grew up in China, where everyone else has the same kind of situation. So from my perspective, yes, the cultural pieces like kind of important, but at that point in my life like my parents in sometimes now, they still feel like strangers in the sense that I don’t know them as well as I would like to. And what if I were to tell them this big secret about me and then that was just it. We don’t really know each other that well, and I’m exposing to them a huge piece of my life and they were to reject me for being honest about who I was that was like such a scary concept that I just couldn’t. I couldn’t do it until I was basically at the level where I was like, I feel safe emotionally with who I am and also I feel safe in the sense of like, I’m not going to be like broken and on the street, if I get disowned.
Angela Lin 24:49
I think you’re right. The fact that your first gen I’m sure plays into a lot of like whether or not the cultural aspect of it had like a heavy hand and how you perceived how like burdensome that conversation would be. Tong I’m curious about how much the Chinese-ness of it all played into how you were feeling about it since you did grow up in China until college right?
Tong 25:13
I didn’t realize the conflict until I went through it. My whole like upbringing in China, it was just like no homosexual like there’s just not a concept so they just like it never occurred to me that I like I just never really tried to go deeper to understand like what is like LGBT. What does it mean to be part of this community or even like support them but then after came to America, I think Jesse were you said like you know, seeing all walks of life and really like a you can be whoever you want to be. And all of that, like thinking is really encouraging and powerful. So being able to, like really understand what drives me and who I want to be but then like those two elements just clashed really in a way that I never thought it would be after the coming out process. So I still like today I’m constantly struggling my responsibility to my parents to my family versus like I want to live a life that I feel I’m staying true to who I am. I don’t want to live a life to fulfill my parents dream.
Angela Lin 26:24
We talked about filial piety as a previous episodes. sense of duty is strong for sure. Many reasons, okay. Okay. heavy stuff. Thank you both for sharing those experiences and sorry to make you recount some not so fun parts of it. We talked about in general, the US being a place where you can like be who you want to be and own that identity for yourself. I’m curious how that played out when you first entered this community with other gay lesbian and bisexual people. And like was that a full embrace? Was it everything you hoped for? Or was it like there was some surprising not so fun moments in that too?
Jesse Lin 27:06
I think the key here is be who you want to be. And who I wanted to be was like a big question mark. So I struggled a little bit to find what it means to be gay for me. I was trying to fit all these stereotypes that you see on on the television. And I think I tried that for a little bit. And it was just not for me like it was fun for most parts of it. But it was also very tiring, not fulfilling. The friends were not really as good of friends as you thought, but I’m not gonna I won’t lie, like the whole process of finding what kind of gay person you are, is it’s very fun. I mean, for me, I went out a lot like I met a lot of people. They did a lot of crazy stuff like, and still am, but yeah.
Tong 27:51
Yeah, I think my entering to the LGBT community was when I started b-school. You know, like at the school, you have all this like communities and groups. So there was a pride group on campus. And then that’s how I got to meet a lot of like LGBT folks. The group really created a really safe space for people to share. So we have like Coming Out Day and we have retreat. So as through that bonding experience, I really understood how strong the support can be because you share some like, pretty tough experience and you come out stronger. Like the groups at the school will be the main social circle, and I also met my wife through b-school. So that’s just like a huge bonus.
Angela Lin 28:38
I’m curious if you did have any experiences going out into like LGBT society in Asia and what that like versus in the US?
Tong 28:48
Yeah, it’s an interesting question. I think my kind of experience will my wife is from Malaysia originally so I can see like, through her lens and I think it’s definitely pretty tough for her as well. Because I think from another perspective, which is religion, her mom is a really Christian person and it’s just like really hard for her to like she tried to come out to her mom for like 10 years now. And she still cannot like really fully accept who she is. And then I think when I was traveling in Taiwan or Taipei specifically, like we weren’t, like going out to like, gay bars per se, but like when you’re like touring the site or going to like restaurants or cafe if you see like people that you can tell their lesbian, you can check them out. And there are a lot of people that like, I feel like it was like more accepting, in a way I feel like especially young people, and I see a lot of girls were like, you know, holding hands and like, all of that, but not like really in the deeper sense. Like I have friends who are LGBT like who I met through b-school that went back to China, and I think there’s still a real struggle for them.
Angela Lin 30:15
Alright, let’s close out with our fortune cookie closing section because we like to end on a sweet treat. So let’s completely break from all of this. Let’s shed some of the heaviness of today’s conversation and just end with something super fun. I am curious to know what famous person was your first sexual awakening? Like for me? My first sexual awakening was Kocoum from Pocahontas. You remember him? He’s the suitor that her dad wanted her to marry. Oh, he was so hot. He was ripped. He was like, stoic, so handsome. And when she was like, I don’t know if I should marry Kocoum. And I’m like, you’re dumb bitch you should marry Kocoum, forget john smith. So he’s mine. How about you guys?
Jesse Lin 31:06
I want to say it was like really Jay Chou because at the time, it was like kind of the same time as puberty and both Angela and I were like getting into like more Asian stuff and it was also time that he was getting really popular and I just remember there was like a picture of him I don’t think was an album cover but with some kind of like publicity image of him just like shirtless and I was like, that is really sexy.
Tong 31:33
I couldn’t really think up at the time, but I think my friend asked me a question like, if you can, like fantasize or think about like someone you want to kiss or makeout who that person would be and then I think that person will be Keira Knightley. Yeah I don’t know however just like love all her movies and I even like been to Broadway when she was in town for a play. Just like something about her. Just make me feel she’s super attractive.
Angela Lin 32:00
Yeah, she’s super elegant, beautiful.
Tong 32:05
This is super fun. Thank you for having me.
Jesse Lin 32:10
Alright guys, so I think we had a pretty fun episode when we come up with some interesting and heavy topics. So as usual, if you guys have any stories or feedback or anything you want to share with us regarding your experience as a straight person, as an LGBT individual, please feel free to send us some love, send us an email at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com that’s Y-O-U-R-E. And as always, come back next week, we’ll have a new episode for you then.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai