Episode 10 – Confusion-ism: Filial Piety 101
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Angela Lin 0:09
Hey, everyone, I’m Angela Lin.
Jesse Lin 0:11
And I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to But Where Are You Really From?
Angela Lin 0:15
This week we’re super excited to have our second guest on the podcast one of my best friends, Jenny.
Jenny Tangen 0:22
Thank you guys for having me. It’s been way too long to see your beautiful faces. And you were both in New York together at NYU. Angela met my freshman year gotten to see her grow and Jesse still living vicariously through you and your adventures. A little bit about me personally, I’m originally from Houston, Texas. I kind of grew up as a feisty little kid trying to follow whatever her brother did. Truly my upbringing was how do I prove myself and my worth with my family then decided to leave Houston area and go into the big city and that was a big change for me. A lot of my friends stay in Houston and kind of lived that life there. And for me it was a big shift moving to New York. So it’s great kind of landing there and meeting you guys.
Jesse Lin 1:12
So this week our episode is about filial piety which some of you may or may not have heard of. But before we jump into the definition of what it means, I’d like to open a question to everybody here, which is, what do you think of when you think of the word parents
Jenny Tangen 1:29
Have to make sure my parents maybe don’t listen to it? I would say definitely authority but probably love safe space for me guidance. It was a little bit of tough love, but definitely met.
Angela Lin 1:45
Well, that’s my first thought was like, people who gave birth to me, raised me.
Jesse Lin 1:53
I would also say just somebody who’s like there for you, and why I asked this question is I believe that most people think about their parents and context of yourself and your concept of your parental figures are all grounded around your personal self and how they’re oriented in relation to you. What’s interesting is that when we introduce this concept of filial piety, it’s like completely opposite. So filial piety is kind of one of the main precepts of Confucianism. In the cliffnotes version, it’s basically a spoken or unspoken kind of form of obligation to your parents. So it’s not just that you follow your parents because they’re authoritative, or you respect them or you love them, but you have this life, karmic debt to your parents. And you must always be trying to resolve that obligation. What’s that mean? Like? How do you resolve this obligation to your parents? So you can do this through physical care through love, through service, respect, and also acts of obedience. Initial thoughts?
Angela Lin 2:58
Well, first thing that came mind is something that we talked about a lot, which is the juxtaposition of Western upbringing and an Eastern upbringing. And it’s funny that all three of us still said the same thing in terms of like, the the parent definition being centered around us. Because I mean, at the end of the day, we all three of us grew up in the US. So I think all of us are still very kind of like self driven, because that is American culture. It’s interesting, for sure, because Jesse and I were raised on this concept of filial piety where yeah, if you take a step back and think about it is like, you’re not important in this context. It’s just your parents that are important and like, you’re just kind of a shadow behind that.
Jenny Tangen 3:42
I love that karmic debt, you know, and illustrating that made it a little bit more easier for me to understand. And when you say obligation, it’s interesting because I feel like my parents it was more a sense of empowering me. For them it wasn’t so much as an obligation or a debt to pay with them. Never really seen it. It’s like I’m the the shadow of them versus they’re kind of pushing me up the pedestal a little bit and look at what we’ve given you and this platform that you can be on and how do you kind of raise that to the next level.
Jesse Lin 4:13
That’s really interesting because I feel I kind of vacillate between the two of you. I feel like when I was heading off to college, it was all very focused on myself because I had like, spent so much time trying to develop who I wanted to be and it’s like, the chance to do a fresh start and then kind of after college and towards now I feel more of the pull of obligation in a sentence that I’m not really sure if it’s just like the distance makes me miss my parents more or make me want to do more nice things for them. Or if it’s this shadow of my childhood coming back to haunt me, but like, it’s definitely been kind of like up and down in terms of like, how I how I feel about it.
Angela Lin 4:51
The way that Jenny you described your parents that’s kind of like putting their hopes and wishes into empowering you is not fully the way our parents probably found us off which is more like they had a lot of hopes and wishes for us which is why they like move to this country so that we could have a better opportunity but then there’s this associated like weight and guilt that’s put on us because they already sacrificed so much. So then when they’re trying to like make sure you succeed, it’s making sure you succeed in like their definition of success. And if you have a different idea, you’re going to be constantly kind of like pushing against the current.
Jesse Lin 5:32
You just have to work like two times three times as hard to like prove to your parents set like where you want to go is like also a valid path because they just have this like tunnel vision of we see these like very successful figures and we want you to be one of them. And that can only be like one of three things.
Jenny Tangen 5:50
I’m curious like what I growing up what was like the tactics used because I could see like, for me, it was like you won’t get go far if you don’t do your homework or you’re not disciplined and it was it I feel like those tactics were all focused on me versus I’m curious to hear what tactics maybe or how that translated in your household. What was the threat behind your like daily chart?
Jesse Lin 6:14
I don’t think there weren’t guilt trips. It didn’t work that way was mostly like authoritative, like, it would be like, do this, do that and we would do it.
Angela Lin 6:21
Yeah, I think Asian kids are generally just afraid of their. So you know, if they tell you to do something, you don’t do it, you talk back like they’re gonna get loud and you’re gonna be afraid. So you’ll you’ll just do it.
Jenny Tangen 6:35
So you guys didn’t need like the incentive or the trade off like it was like do your laundry or you can’t go see your friends.
Angela Lin 6:41
Now that’s like, that’s too soft man.
Now we have a good sense of what the concept of filial piety means we want to go a little bit deeper on the extent to which it has been flowing through our various experiences and let’s dig a little bit deeper into like the ways that it might have come about. The sense of filial piety is your relationship with your parents or the parents or the center, so the role of your grandparents in all this is also like something worthwhile to talk about. Because even though your parents are receiving this, like obedience and deference from you, they are supposed to be giving that to their own parents. So how much time did your parents really spend with your grandparents growing up or even now?
Jenny Tangen 7:32
Well, from my side was interesting because my grandparents were based in North Dakota and then another set in Missouri. We didn’t spend much time with my grandparents in North Dakota, aside from like summer visits and occasional phone calls. My mom’s mother, she did live with us for a period of time when she became ill, which was an interesting setup for our family because her relationship with her mother was actually not great. There was no obligation on her. And just because the way she was raised, she felt that she didn’t earn that obligation. So limited touch points with my grandparents but a little more so on my mother’s side, just given the situation and her coming to live with us at the close of her life.
Angela Lin 8:20
Was your mom and only child or why did she feel the need to..
Jenny Tangen 8:25
To take her in?
Angela Lin 8:28
If the relationship wasn’t good
Jenny Tangen 8:29
I know, it’s a long story, but essentially, she’s one of three sisters. She had a close relationship with her dad, her younger sister took that ownership when my grandfather fell ill. My grandparents were divorced at that time. And then in that period of our lives, my mom felt like she could take the burden on a little bit more than the other sisters and just felt like it wasn’t it was unfair to ask that of her little sister to take on another ailing parent. So honestly, I think it was more her sense of obligation to her sisters than to her mother.
Angela Lin 9:07
That’s super interesting.
Jesse Lin 9:09
That is really interesting.
Angela Lin 9:10
Yeah, I think that’s fairly unusual for like American families to take in the the grandparent right to live with them. Like my impression is kind of like if you grew up in the US, it’s kind of like you’re 18 get out of the house and like you’re like a separate human like where you grew up, and like you’re now all adults and like living in your own bubbles on the like Asian, well, Chinese specifically side, given the concept of filial piety actually, one of the main tenants of it is that when your parents grow old, you have an obligation to take them in that like they are supposed to live with you. So like you’re this huge family of you know, your your spouse or kids and and then the generation before you
Jenny Tangen 9:59
Which is interesting because there is a sense of guilt I would say in terms of like my mom feeling like, well, what are we going to do? We can’t necessarily put her in a nursing home, but do we bring her back into our home? I mean, it wasn’t a natural decision for her to say like, let’s have her live with us. It wasn’t just assumed that she would come live with us. I think the first instinct is like a nursing home. Eventually she did go into a situation where she had her own setup it wasn’t a nursing home but it was her own living area but with like two other people and they had a live in nurse kind of tend to them that way as she was ailing and then eventually went into hospice care, which is also interesting. I would be curious to get your thoughts on you know, not only when outside of when your grandparents just need to come back and live with a family unit but when they’re ailing. Like what’s the process like that with your families that more it tending to them to the very end or is it kind of seeking out this hospice care as an option too or is that kind of frowned upon.
Jesse Lin 11:13
So I can speak from my own experience. And I want to caveat that because it’s not a very typical experience. I lived basically across the street from my grandparents, my dad’s parents, what I observed there was that there was not really a talk of like hospice care at all like if there is like somebody in the family that is able to take them in like, they won’t even talk about something like that. And my dad is one of 1234. So he has four siblings, both of my two uncles and one on both live basically like in the same town that I grew up, so I don’t think it would have been acceptable for anyone to be like, let me put them in eldercare or hospice care like because there are living descendants that are supposed to be obligated to take care of them. But Angela, what about you? I mean, your your parents grandparents are not here. So
Angela Lin 12:06
Yeah, my experience a little bit different because when I was growing up, I already only had one grandparent, so I only had my mom’s mom. And so it’s a little hard for me to say because she was in Taiwan. So I only saw her in the summers when we would go visit and when she was getting sick, I was in America so I couldn’t really like and really young, I think I was only in middle school at the time. So I like didn’t really understand what was going on. But for my understanding for sure, like all of her children, I’m sure we’re like trying to take care of her to the best of their ability till the end.
We went a little heavy with the first topic I would say. So hopefully we lighten it with a few other notes.
I got some dad jokes. Yo you got some jokes?.
Jenny Tangen 12:53
To lighten the mood? I say that and now I have nothing. Yeah, let me let me simmer on it. I’ll pick a good one.
Angela Lin 13:06
So one thing I want to talk about is the various expressions of filial piety like how those obligations were kind of communicated to us in terms of what our parents expected from us. One is for sure, like, you always have to listen to your parents no matter what you have to be a good kid like this is emphasize pretty hard, like the good and bad kid and like there’ll be the good kid and like not talk back to them. Then there are other things are just kind of like a little random or like specific to Eastern culture. So one is that when you grow up and you start making money, you’re expected to carve out a portion of your salary to like act as an allowance. Yeah, for your parents, which I think Jesse and I are probably have had like different negotiations about this topic but like theoretically, that is one that you’re supposed to to be held to and then the other is…
Jenny Tangen 14:04
My mind is blown on that.
Angela Lin 14:05
Well, let’s stay on the topic for a second. I know, for me at least, like when I first heard that I was like, What do you mean? Like, why? Why would I owe you money? In a sense, especially like Jenny, you and I had been friends, right when, like, even after we graduated from NYU, and we got our first jobs like, I was making, like, $40,000 a year. I’m like, how do you get your money? Yeah. 40,000 in New York with student debt from a private university, like, so I think I’ve had to, like, battle my parents a bit.
Jenny Tangen 14:42
I’m sorry. For context. How did this come up? Like, do you remember like, where your parents did a view down and like had this conversation with you? Or is it just kind of like, understood that that’s…
Angela Lin 14:53
well, I think it’s funny because Chinese parents or maybe all Asian parents, I feel like They don’t have a lot of tact. So like, I feel like when they first brought it up to me, it was just a normal day. We were like talking about other things. And they’re like, hey, when you get your first job, you know, you’re supposed to like, give us 10% of your salary. Right? I was like, What?
Jesse Lin 15:15
Wait a hard number? That is a liberal interpretation of the text.
Angela Lin 15:28
Did they ever tell you to do that?
Jesse Lin 15:31
So they mentioned a lot of things in passing, that kind of are like nudges. So my cousin is like a huge credit card churner. So he does like all of those points things. And my parents would very frequently be like, oh, your cousin just took your on uncle trip to Taiwan. They flew business class now would be like, okay, like, that’s great, but I make $35,000 a year, so you’re gonna be waiting. And I think as I got older and it became more clear that I was not going to be like broken, sad forever, they would start dropping hints, like during specific occasions. So like my mom would say like, Oh, it’s my birthday, like, are you going to treat me to anything nice? Or she was saying the same thing about like Mother’s Day and my dad’s birthday. And obviously Chinese New Year when you get older, you’re expected to give red envelopes back to your elders. So they also remind me of that ever Chinese New Year. It’s not subtle. It’s very, very oh what are you going to get me this year?
Angela Lin 16:38
So Jenny, I think you’ve already peppered in with a lot of great color on on these topics. But we’re now shifting into like, very specifically, how this concept of filial piety differs from Western or American culture, in terms of like how you perceive your relationship with your parents. So definitely like a grain of salt. I think the way that Jesse and I are thinking of this is like, also very stereotypical and like we’re kind of like casting this stereotype over all Western culture. So I think we wanted a real person to like, be
Jesse Lin 17:17
Keep us honest
Angela Lin 17:18
Call you out on our bullshit. So one of the things that we have the perception of and I think we grew up as Asian kids, we grew up like kind of being jealous of this, which is like Western kids seemingly grew up with their parents feeling more like friends rather than authority figures. Like there was a more like, friendly relationship and like some of my friends even call their parents by their first names, which I thought was super weird.
Jenny Tangen 17:47
So definitely exists. I had friends growing up where it was like, it could have parties at their house and you know, their, their parent was there. It was cool that you had like a little wine cooler. In high school, and I was, you know, not cool enough to be invited to a lot of those parties. But I was like, wow, this is different. I will say I definitely had a really close relationship with my mom to the point where I didn’t really view her solely as like an authority figure. She was definitely my mentor, someone I looked up to. I felt like I could be completely honest with her. And she definitely encouraged that.
Angela Lin 18:28
That’s cool. I feel like the way you described your relationship with your mom, I’m like, pretty jealous of that for my parents, especially my mom, who was the main one raising us when I was growing up because my dad was an entrepreneur. So he had a company that was based in China so he would like fly back and forth every four months or so. So my mom was a consistent one like every day we saw her and I think it was just easier for her to set rules that you have to follow and like this our relationship, so I definitely did not feel like I should go to her for it. Or like counseling of any sort. It was like, I was just there to like, say no, and I’m gonna go to my friends, get advice and to tell them what’s actually happening with my life.
Jesse Lin 18:31
My relationship with my mom is still evolving. When I was younger, from grade school to high school, I would not to say that she was a friend, not that we didn’t have a close relationship. But up until very recently, I knew very few things about my mom, like in terms of her life when she lived in Taiwan. And it’s only as I’ve gotten older that I’ve started asking those questions and I feel like she’s been more forthcoming. But you know, before then it’s not like we discuss those things. And I’m not really sure why that is, but because we never had those conversations. It’s like hard to picture person as your friend, right? Like, you don’t know anything about them. They’re just kind of like they’re in your life. So that’s kind of how I felt towards my parents. Like we’re very close, but I knew really nothing about them.
Angela Lin 19:55
It’s also part of Eastern culture. I think you don’t express or share your life without being asked about it, like, it’s not just something you would do. And so if you only have this like a one dimensional view into this person, how could you possibly think of them as anything but just like a supporting cast character in your life? Right?
Jenny Tangen 20:14
Yeah, that’s interesting, too just knowing that it sounds like you’re not willing to kind of share or divulge vulnerability. And the only like connection I could make on my site is my dad is more stoic, like military, a little bit more of like a southern type of thing and not wanting to divulge things. It’s interesting that there’s like this tinge of like, how vulnerable do you want to be with your kids? And like, what’s the balance between being like the authority figure versus like vulnerability, but I’m curious like as you guys age, have you noticed your parents be more forthcoming about, you know, their experiences and you know, wanting to try and build a relationship outside of just the parent role?
Angela Lin 20:59
I definitely noticed that shifted my parents after I started working in New York when they realized like, Oh, wait, she’s gonna like stay there. We’re not gonna see her at all. I think that shifted things because they’re like calling me all the time. I don’t want to call them back. It’s a bit of like vicious cycle because if you’re a grown, if you grew up with parents that like didn’t want to create a really like two way dialogue type relationship, then it’s hard as like a young adult to recognize that it’s important to start building that relationship. So I think especially in my early 20s, I definitely was just kind of like, Well, you didn’t treat me like you loved me when I was growing up. So I don’t why should I like reciprocate with something else? Now? It just like makes me a little sad that it took so long to like, be open to want to build a solid relationship with them because they’re getting old. So it’s just like, yeah, I feel a little sad for lost years. So now that we’ve talked about what filial piety is holistically now that you have a concept of all of it, where do you personally stand on the concept of filial piety being taught to all Chinese children as like a major way that you were expected to live?
Jenny Tangen 22:16
Oh, god, that’s a lot of pressure. You know, give my own opinion on that. Honestly, I think it’s, um, there’s definitely beauty to it. I think for me, it was interesting to kind of see like how your obligation is really just about love and the way you express that in different communities is very different. And that’s what I think I always had in my head, like, Oh, this is just a tool to get, you know, families and and their kids to like, live up to their expectations, but you guys have already set you know, your own expectations. So, in my mind, I’ve kind of transitioned that more to like this is just how your family unit comes together. And so I find it I like it. I think it’s cool. I would like it for my, you know, North Dakotan grandmother to whip me into shape. And, you know, she becomes the matriarch where we all go over to her house. Like I love that idea.
Angela Lin 23:14
I think my perspective on filial piety has changed a lot. I agree with you. There’s a lot of beauty in the concept. I think the delivery it needs works at its core, like you’re saying it is about love. And in my perspective, it’s like it’s about gratitude. You were given this, you know, unbeatable gift of life. And so it’s just different forms of showing gratitude for repaying this gift that can never be paralleled, right. So in that sense, I think that it is beautiful. So for my future kids, I think I would like to instill some of it but I also would take away a lot of the rigidity around like, you need to give me 10% of your salary like, Jesse?
Jesse Lin 23:59
Well, no, I agree. With all of that, I think that love and service obedience respect, like those are very nebulous things. So it’s hard to say like I’ve delivered enough, I fulfilled enough even saying that that’s kind of defeats the whole purpose, right. It’s not about like a quota. It’s about you finding your own gratitude, as you said, Angela, towards your parents for them taking you through, basically the process of becoming an adult. So I feel like the gratitude that I found now towards my parents that over the last couple of years kind of have has happened in spite of all that stuff. You know, like, I don’t believe in the rigidity of it, as you guys mentioned, like, I don’t believe you, you have to be beholden to somebody, but I do look back at my experience, and I see, you know, the places where my parents made a lot of sacrifices for me. And so that fuels my gratitude, rather than the idea that you must be obligated to feel gratitude for your parents.
So now that we’ve kind of discussed what filial piety piety is and our feelings about it, how do we think this concept is going to change moving forward?
Angela Lin 25:09
My perspective is that it’s never gonna go away. Like my dad said last time, like Confucianism is one of the core foundation pieces of Chinese culture. So like it will continue in some way or form. But there are a lot of things happening with like the way lives are led now that are bound to have an effect on like how strictly filial piety is adhered to. So speaking specifically on Chinese families, family members are migrating to different areas, especially in China, right. Like everyone’s congregating to like the big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and others. So like as you go to more urban environments that’s naturally kind of breaking up the importance of family because you’re just kind of apart and then even to like the greater extreme people are moving out of China, like our families did that early on, but like now it’s like becoming very common for especially mainland Chinese that’s naturally bound to like break up the family and break up your your sense of obligation.
Jesse Lin 26:14
I also think that families are just smaller. Now, you know, you don’t have the 10 brothers and sisters scenario that our parents grew up with. And I think the concept of filial piety is quite easy to swing when you have a village to take care of your parent, but when it’s just you, or you and another person that becomes really much more difficult to bear that burden. I was also thinking about how many single people are actually, as you mentioned, migrating out of rural areas into urban centers and how a lot of those people are either not going to have children, they won’t be able to find a partner or their families are going to be really small. So there’s going to be a huge growing elder population where there is nobody to support that individual. Finally I was also having this conversation with my mom she texted me this like funny picture of like one of those like man pulled buggies. And she was like, we never got to ride these when I was a kid because they were rich for rich people only. And I texted her back and I was like, well, now you drive a four wheeled car isn’t it amazing how quickly things change. But I think that’s a really nice illustration of how things have changed so quickly and how that can really affect how people can relate to one another. Even though we said that doesn’t matter as a part of filial piety it does in terms of like how much you want to care about the care that you’re giving other than it’s an obligation.
Angela Lin 27:37
And even though we talked about kind of like sense of self and being self driven as like a core Western tenant, I feel like even with young Chinese Taiwanese people growing up now like of course, I think we still have like a greater sense of obligation and like, you know, the eastern values were brought up to believe but young people are also now having like more independent ways of thinking and like desires for themselves. So I think that will naturally also pull people a bit away from like the communal core of where filial piety comes from. Right? Because it is centered on this idea of like you being a piece of this broader puzzle of like your greater family unit.
Jesse Lin 28:25
How do you think as you mentioned, this is gonna play out for like, Western based Asian American families?
Angela Lin 28:30
It might go away, honestly, because it really depends on like, how much you as a parent want to continue that legacy. And like even you and I just talked about with Jenny and like, there are only pieces of it that we feel are worthwhile passing down, but I feel like you know, Asian American families with further generations are gonna stray like very far from this original way of life. What about you?
Jesse Lin 28:56
I agree, and I guess it worries me a little bit. that there would be a situation if I had children that they would grow up without even being able to have that kind of family unit that they would be even further away from that. Because it’s something that’s causing me a little bit of like mental gymnastics anxiety right now.
Angela Lin 29:16
Yeah, I can see how, without the personal effort of the parents in question at the moment, it’s, it’s not likely that it will continue.
Jesse Lin 29:25
I mean, I think we discussed it though. Like, I think we’re going to pass down some of the tenants that are related to filial piety, we are in a position to do a better job of explaining its significance. And also focusing on the parts that really matter. I mean, like for my kids, like I don’t have any expectation that they will, like, uproot their life and come take care of me when I’m older, but I do have the expectation that they will do small things that demonstrate their love. I mean, the money thing, great if you want to give me some money, great, but I really would just like to have that feeling of gratitude and love.
Angela Lin 30:02
I agree with you completely, I think it’s more like our generation, we need to do like a remix of what the filial piety means. And really just focus on the core of it all like showing love and gratitude. And I think it is going to depend on us being vulnerable with our kids in the future, kind of like explaining where this comes from and why it’s important to us and hopefully ingraining that in their lives so they can appreciate it and want to pass it on to their kids.
Jenny Tangen 30:31
Okay, this is great. Thanks for looking me in on this. This was a lot of fun.
Jesse Lin 30:35
Yeah, it was.
Angela Lin 30:36
Jenny, thank you so much for joining us.
Jesse Lin 30:43
Alright guys, well now we’re at the very end of our episode, and as always, we like to close with a sweet treat in the fortune cookie section. Before we go ahead to share with you the funny part of the end of our episode, we would like to invite you guys to give us your feedback, your comments, share with us your stories. If you have any experience with this or you learn something new from today’s topic, you can email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com that’s Y-O-U-R-E.
Angela Lin 31:17
Yes. And Jesse mentioned her sweet treat and boy do we have a sweet treat for you. So you may or may not have noticed throughout the episode but Jenny, our guest today alluded to a dad joke that she really wanted to tell and she spent all episode you know, hyping it up and getting it ready so I think it’s pretty funny, at least her delivery is funny, so we’ll give it to you now for your sweet treat.
Jenny Tangen 31:46
I okay, so um, this is oh god there’s like names tied to this. There’s like this whole series of we’ll just say her name is Myrna but Myrna and I’ll say it in my North Dakotan accent. Myrna was, you know, trying to come up with a new carnation milk ad and so she loves carnation milk. Do you guys still like carnation milk? So it’s like little, a little milk in a can right? So you get the milk in the can. So she came up with a new carnation milk ad. Keep in mind this is my great aunt telling this this joke who is like, well in her 80s Elvis impersonator on the side. Crazy, riot woman. So, you know, Myrna went, went into that corporate office and she said, Ah, you know, I have an entry and here’s my entry. Carnation milk is best of all, no tips to pull. No shit the haul. No buckets to wash, no hair to pitch just poke a hole in the son of a bitch. And not as a joke.
Angela Lin 32:54
I don’t know it just happened. But yeah,
Jenny Tangen 32:57
I’m sorry. It’s like I think it’s more of the delivery just coming from the old woman say like, poke a hole in this son of a bitch but I promised a joke and I gave you a joke. Quality. Yeah.
Angela Lin 33:16
All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed that seat treat. If you enjoyed this episode and continue to love our podcast we ask that you please continue to like follow subscribe, but also share, tell your friends about it. Tell your tell your mom, tell your grandpa tell whoever because we that that’s how this is going to continue in the future. We really hope to keep making new episodes for you. And with that said, Come back next week because we will have something new and fresh for you then and until next time.