Episode 11 – The Freedom of Controlled Substances
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 0:15
This week we’re taking a topic detour and we are talking about the funniest thing of them all drugs. So I think that this is quite an interesting topic for us to discuss because drugs have always been very taboo within Asian culture, and also just in our conversations with our parents growing up, it was always a very hard line in the sand, don’t do drugs, like you’ll end up in a bad place and bring shame upon the family and all that. And I don’t know if you ever had this experience, but whenever my parents brought up stuff like that, they always have like anecdotes to back it up so they will be like so and so’s cousin’s wife. And now they’re divorced, and she can’t see their children anymore or something like that. So..
Angela Lin 1:06
Always like five steps removed.
Jesse Lin 1:09
Exactly. So many of those examples. And so it was like very clear that drugs were bad even though for the most part, when we were growing up, what fell into the category of drugs was really basically like drinking, smoking and marijuana. And there was like, not even anything else ever.
Angela Lin 1:29
I don’t think our parents even know necessarily any…
Jesse Lin 1:31
Yeah, for sure. It doesn’t. Like I don’t think those things even exist for them. And of course, we both grew up in a very well to do neighborhoods. So I’m sure nationally, there was a lot of D.A.R.E., what does D.A.R.E. stand for again…
Drug abuse, reduce
Reduction Education.
So obviously we went through a lot of those courses in, I think elementary and probably middle school as well. And maybe even some of high school and I remember they would bring like a police officer and the police officer would be like, here the sentences for people who are caught with these kinds of substances, and they were basically just tried to like scare you away from doing them. So that was like an added thing in the pile where you were like, No, don’t do drugs, like it’s scary and you can get arrested. And die. Yeah.
Angela Lin 2:49
So let’s get into a high level overview of the types of drugs that we’re going to be covering in today’s episode. Such a fun topic. And so we’re not going to go into like the science of it all, but we did want to talk about them in terms of like, what the core effect is, and like what purpose people use them for. So the four key drugs that we’re including in today’s episode are alcohol, marijuana, MDMA, and broadly psychedelics. So starting with alcohol, I think the main reason people get drunk is to just kind of like loosen up, get out of your head, like giving you courage honestly to like do things you’ve always wanted to do, but it is dissociative because you’re kind of trying to like distance yourself from yours, your inhibitions your time, I kind of like create the space so that you’re this somewhat alternate version of you. Then with marijuana, it’s kind of like similar but opposite. So I would still say marijuana is dissociative and that you’re trying to relax to get out of your head have fun generally, but it’s very like it’s a relaxant. Then MDMA. MDMA is known as kind of like the happy drug, right? Like it’s just this very like connecting type of drug. And MDMA is used both recreationally and it’s also used for therapeutic purposes to like be more introspective and use it to help you kind of work through some of your issues if you turn inward, which then leads to similarly psychedelics. So this is a whole different sphere. psychedelics are a broad category of drugs that the connecting factor is that all these drugs have trigger DMT which is the chemical that makes your brain hallucinate. So when you’re on psychedelics, you can visually see things like either aren’t there or like our slightly altered version of realities, so psychedelics, definitely a lot of people take recreationally. And also psychedelics are certainly very much used now for therapeutic uses. It’s getting a second wave now in terms of like acceptability and the the benefits that can come from using guided therapy sessions with psychedelics.
Jesse Lin 5:19
I think that in general, my experience along with everyone else’s experiences the same where alcohol is basically like the first thing that you’re introduced to because A it’s legal, and B, it’s pretty easy to get even if you’re under age, there’s like less taboo around it – it’s legal. So even though we’re under 21, and we’re obtaining it illegally, it’s not as bad as if you were getting like marijuana, which is like completely illegal. You have alcohol basically like everywhere you go. But I think that it also has some of the worst backlashes just because I think of the setting that you’re typically using it in is you’re with a lot of people. It could be a personal setting, but could also be a professional setting. And both those settings are situations where if you’re a little too loose that could be very very bad.
Angela Lin 6:02
I feel like some of my biggest mistakes in my early to mid 20s were on alcohol the dumb shit that happens when you blackout that’s what I mean by dissociative. It’s like you literally are like out of your body out of your mind when especially when you’re at the point of blackouts
Jesse Lin 6:19
Also a little misleading because people always say like, oh, alcohol lowers your inhibitions. So they’re like, it’s like your real self coming out. But like, when you’re at that level, you’ve lost so much of yourself that it’s not your real self anymore.
Angela Lin 6:31
I will say I don’t want to like demonize alcohol completely. It’s not like you and I don’t drink alcohol we certainly do, but I feel like I especially as I’ve gotten older I’ve come to appreciate the use of alcohol more and like I opened up a can of beer after work when I leave now to like de stress from the day but like one is enough.
Jesse Lin 6:51
There’s a certain level of mandatory ness to it. Think about like company happy hour, networking events. There’s almost always alcohol involved in that. People might say that they respect your choice not to drink. But there definitely is some like low key pressure from people being like, hey, how come you’re not like being fun?
Angela Lin 7:12
Alcohol is one thing that the peer pressure started when we were like 13 and has will continue for the rest of your life because everyone’s kind of constantly judging you as to why you’re not drinking when it’s in a setting that everyone else is drinking.
Jesse Lin 7:27
Yep, I think the next level down is marijuana. Everyone who studies abroad takes that like mandatory trip to Amsterdam, but really for the longest time like I’d never felt the effects of it because I think that was really cautious and like how much I was taking and then after a while, I was finally just like, you know what, I’m just gonna try it because I’ve done it these few other times and like nothing has happened for me so I feel pretty safe in doing more and eventually like going through that made me land on my preferred way of doing it, which was edibles
Angela Lin 7:58
My foray into marijuana was similar. My first time doing it was in Amsterdam because if not here then were so I did a brownie and it was out of this world like caught me so high beyond belief that I was like fuck this I never want to get high again. It was like I had no idea where I was it was the time where like if I sat in a chair sort of like sinking into..had no idea humans were around me until they talked loud enough that I focused on them. It was too much from that I kind of like swore off marijuana for a very long time like several years until it got legalized in California. I went from Amsterdam then swearing off for many years then just doing like gummy slash mints. After I did psychedelics I just, it’s not the same anymore because psychedelics are super like about introspection. And so after being in that kind of headspace doing marijuana, that’s totally about like dissociating and going out of your head. I was like, I don’t like this the way that I see the line in the sand of like the drugs that we listed earlier. So alcohol, marijuana, MDMA and psychedelics is that alcohol is addictive. Hmm. I think people can debate me on the marijuana piece. But theoretically, I don’t think marijuana in and of itself is addictive. I think people can get addicted to that state of being really relaxed and just disassociated from yourself and your issues, but not like your body is craving the marijuana and like if you don’t have it, you’re gonna like need another hit in the next five minutes. That is like actual addiction. And alcohol is addictive.
So we’re sailing out of the light party drugs and we’re going into the full party drugs are gonna be talking about MDMA next or called Molly and or called ecstasy. I actually was introduced to this pretty recently, when I went to like this world pride party with a bunch of friends and it was like face meltingly awesome. I don’t remember much of the night like I wasn’t blacked out. It was just Like my brain was not recording anything that was happening. You just feel like super happy everyone you interact with you’re like, I’m immediately like in love with you like I’ve known you for like million years and you’re my soulmate. It was just such a very transformational experience because you’re just so happy that you’re like, I can’t believe that I can get to that level of happiness in my life. And for me, it doesn’t diminish like your current state. It’s just kind of like you understand that you can’t always be that happy in your life. Like it’s not possible. But there are moments where you can get there
Do you feel like that state feels really genuine to you, even when you’re off it
Jesse Lin 10:38
Well it depends, I think, on a few things. I mean, the first thing is like obviously afterwards, I thought about what I was feeling and most of it is powered by the drugs right like the people who I went and partied with that night I literally just met even now like when I think about that night and those people its just like a tug at your heartstrings. The other thing that I do thing is super important with like, all of these things is your intention going into whatever you’re doing with the substance. So for me, I had two very two clear intentions as to what I wanted to do. Number one, I wanted to be able to stay up all night because this is like a party that goes from like 12 to six I was like, there’s no way that I can be alive without some help. And number two, I just wanted to dance my ass off combining those two things. It was like perfect
Angela Lin 11:25
Was the like decision to try this quote unquote, more hardcore drug for the first time driven by something else because we are talking about what was the thing that got us over this hump of like, Asian parents bring us up to think all drugs were like, absolutely evil,
Jesse Lin 11:41
Mostly pragmatism and curiosity. The people I was going with, I was like, I’m pretty comfortable that they would not be steering me wrong or abandon me. Yeah, I trusted them. And then the thing was, I just want to try it. Like I had like heard things about it and obviously done my research before and like ask people like their own experiences were with it. But I was just really curious about what it would feel like and everything kind of just aligned. I had the place to be I had the people to be with, I knew what exactly I wanted out of the experience and the substance was available.
Angela Lin 12:14
I think trust is like a really big factor in terms of like why people decide to go over the hump of like taboo or skepticism prior to trying a more hardcore drug. For me was the same way and I think this is where Jesse and I will start like diverging a bit in experiences because for the rest of these drugs, for me, it was therapeutic. So in our previous episodes, we talked about mental health. I talked to my therapist, and actually this therapist that I was going to was a therapist that specialized in psychedelics. I first went to see her just for like regular talk therapy for several months. So like no drugs at all involved, just to like build up our relationship and build up that trust. I read this book called “How to change your mind” by Michael Pollan, which covers he covers MDMA, but he also covers all the psychedelics, I found this book super compelling because it was really scientific the way that he wrote it. So like, when I first started seeing this therapist, she was like, from the spectrum of woowoo, to science, where are you? Both, like, that’s a really funny way to put it. But for me, I think I’m somewhere slightly above in the middle. So like, I am more science based, like I need like the data to back it up. I need a rationale that makes sense for why you should take a risk. But you and I were raised Daoist there was like certain, you know, like spiritual elements and not totally just like sciences is it and there’s nothing else out there in the world. So when I read this book, I was like this perfect because it’s science based. So Michael Pollan is a New York Times best selling author but he’s a specialist in plants so he’s written a bunch of books on like regular plants. And then he wanted to investigate psychedelic plants and other psychedelics. And so the first half of the book is all just research. So he talked about like the history behind for example, like LSD. The benefits that first were discovered around it, how it got, like banned later and, and all these things. So just like kind of laying out, like what are the facts behind these drugs. And then the second half of the book was super compelling because it basically was like every chapter, he did a different drug. And he was someone who, like, never did any drugs. So it was like very easy to put myself in his shoes. So I think MDMA was the first one that he did as well. And he basically wrote it, like first person account like, this is what happened, this is what I saw. This is my experience. And so because of like, bought in by his first half research, and then felt like I was along for the ride and experiences, I was like, This seems logical and like he seems to have gotten really strong benefits from doing that. Like I’m open, but yeah, so MDMA, I took it as my first therapeutic drug. And it’s still my favorite trip I’ve ever had. Honestly, that’s for similar reasons like even though you and I did it for different reasons like recreational versus therapeutic, it has the same effect in terms of like making feel really loved and like connected to everything and everyone. For me it was really interesting because when you do drugs for therapeutic settings, you turn totally inward so what that means is like you’re lying down for the whole session and you have an eye mask on so you’re like not focused on the like outer stimuli of like, what’s happening in the room you’re focused really on you. You do see things similar to like in a dream like when you dream at night, see things that like feel really real to you, but there’s always kind of that like fuzzy haze over things for you like no, this is not like reality. For me. I like had these beautiful visions and it was very spiritual and I worked through a lot of shit especially with like my family and relationships. Some things like that I felt this like really deep unconditional love for my family that I like had never felt or like expressed before. And for me feeling that was like uncovering the truth. So it didn’t feel like it was because of the drugs. It was like the drugs helped me get there to realize like that was always there, there was no way to lie, what you feel is like is there and it’s going to come out.
Jesse Lin 16:24
I think there are similar experiences because you uncovered your love for your family. And I uncovered that I could find more happiness in my life than what I had
Angela Lin 16:33
Just to bring the woowoo in here for a second one of the main insights that everyone says when they do psychedelics like biggest insight is that we’re all connected. Like every everyone and everything is connected. And it’s a very woowoo concept, but I feel like even you doing MDMA for a party use you felt that like that’s why you felt so connected with those random people. It was like yeah, you don’t know those people but like at the core, as humans, we’re all connected, right?
Jesse Lin 17:02
I mean, you just you feel the wave of energy from other people. It was a very connective experience, like super empathic, and how do you feel now that you’re like a few months down the line from that session in terms of the feelings that you’ve uncovered
Angela Lin 17:17
When you do drugs for like introspective use, you’re going to come up with like a lot of big insights and discoveries about your life and like the people in them and stuff that are very true. But like when you’re on these drugs, you have no inhibition in terms of seeing the truth. And when you’re in your normal life, you have like all these layers of additional things that are kind of like hiding the truth. So like, you have insecurity you have like you’re holding grudges from past shit that’s happened and all that’s like kind of covering up what was underneath. I still feel like those insights were very true and like the love I felt was very true. But I kind of constantly have to remind myself to feel that because there’s so much other shit that’s easy to pile on in normal life. So now ee’re like truly diverging because we have you and I have respectively like different drugs that we have tried the other hasn’t. So I want to hear more about your last drug.
Jesse Lin 18:12
The last real like hard drug that I’ve used is ketamine. Basically ketamine is also a dissociative, but it’s much more effective, let’s say than alcohol or marijuana you feel like this complete level of emotional dissociation at the peak of it that is like so weird like I’ve never felt this way in my life before. So the first time I did it was with a friend so it was like not a therapeutic setting, but it was very like tranquil safe like at home in my apartment setting. When I tried it. I was talking to my friend about like, all of basically a collapse of my personal life over the last like month or two. And normally when you talk about that stuff, like you get upset, right, you can feel it building and you and then usually that like for me, it comes out in the form of like me just bawling. And while I was on it, I could still feel it, but it felt kind of like my emotions were out of my body and I was viewing them like an outsider. So I could feel this deep well of sadness and unhappiness and like despair, like all this stuff that I’ve been feeling, but I was like, no, thank you. I’m good. Like, that’s how I that’s how I felt about it because I could like pull it to the side. And being able to do that helped frame it differently. Like the emotions don’t steer me like they’re just this part of me that I can like dive into or dip into when I want to, but like, I don’t have to, I think it was actually very helpful because I was able to, like split the emotional part of it away. I was able to talk a lot more about things that were on my mind it made it so was like okay for me to go to those areas. And it was helpful because it was stuff that I had to get off my chest at some point.
Angela Lin 19:54
That’s amazing. Do you feel like the impact of that experience was longer lasting? Stand in that session like
Jesse Lin 20:01
I got stuff off my chest that I was basically like holding there for a really long time. And just by saying it out loud, made it easier for me to approach those topics later on. And obviously, like during this time, I was also in therapy and like journaling. So I was doing a lot of introspection in general. So combining that with those behaviors made it easier for me to like, analyze what I was feeling and process it more effectively.
Angela Lin 20:27
And that’s why it’s so interesting to me because even though you call it a dissociative and it is because you’re literally able to remove your emotions from your body as you’re saying, but I feel like it’s at the same time super introspective, right like because even though you didn’t do it with a therapist, you worked through a lot of shit. And you were able to do that because you were able to dissociate from the emotions
Jesse Lin 20:53
The prescription version of it is used for treatment resistant depression, I think for very much the same reason because it allows you to square yourself in a sense and better get a new perspective on what you’re feeling.
Angela Lin 21:06
Yeah, ketamine is used a lot with PTSD patients now, therapeutic settings exactly for this reason, because they’ve gone through a lot of shit that they need to process and it’s normally too hard or like gets blocked out. But this helps them do that in a healthy way. It’s so interesting. I love that, like, we have so many overlapping ways that we talk about these drugs like because you keep talking about what is your intent with this drug, right. And like when you do psychedelics, or MDMA in a therapeutic setting, there were like a number of things that you have to prepare ahead of time. And one of those things is literally working this thing through called intentions like what are your intentions for the session, like what are you trying to get out of it? What issues are you trying to work through? And then the other stuff is like very related to everything we’ve already talked about, which is like people always talk about set and setting. So set your mindset like where are you when you’re going into that drug because if you’re like fucked up if you’re like super depressed if you’re whatever, like the rest of your trip is going to be that way versus like, if you go into open minded and positively that’s also going to affect it. And then setting where physically are you. So like for you with Molly, right? Like it’s super fun and like a party setting with people you trust. That’s a really like purposefully chosen setting for you versus like, I don’t know, if you’re like, in a sketchy part of town, you randomly pop Molly like, I don’t think you’d be like, having a super fun time, even though that it’s like a happiness inducing drug. When people talk about having bad trips on psychedelics, it’s often because you’re either in the wrong mindset, or you’re in like a bad setting physically, that is like going to cause you to have bad thoughts and then spiral out of control.
Jesse Lin 22:52
So tell us more about your experiences with psychedelics.
Angela Lin 22:56
Yeah, I’m gonna just group them. So I’ve tried mushrooms, ayahuasca, and San Pedro. So the mushrooms I did with the same therapist that I did that MDMA with, but the ayahuasca, San Pedro I did in Peru at the sanctuary that like is largely there to help people do ayuhuasca retreats. My experience with psychedelics has been really interesting when you do it for therapeutic settings, all of these things have, we’re going deep into woowoo land now, but like they all have like a spirit attached to it. Part of the thing with psychedelics is a big reason people have bad trips is because you’re trying to control the journey that you’re going through. And so the like, number one thing with psychedelics is that you have to just let go, that spirit that’s guiding that drug knows what’s best for you and what you are best going to tackle on this journey. So even though you had those intentions of like, I want to work through my fear of XYZ or like my bad relationship or whatever it may be like, that’s nice, but like there’s a chance that you’re not gonna cover any of those issues on your journey because maybe the drug knows that like you had this really deep trauma in your childhood that you’ve been bearing for your whole life that you need to address that first. So we’ll take you there. So like the mushrooms are often spoken about as these tiny little men or little gnomes or whatever and like sometimes people actually see like these little gnomes or like little mushroom men running around. Supposedly, they’re these spirits that have been out in the forest for like, all of time, basically. And they are they’re like mischievious that that plays into like your experience with them. And ayahuasca they call ayuhuasca “her” like, they refer to it like a person and they call her like mother or grandmother. Ayuhuasca is basically a vine that’s grown in the Amazon and when mixed with other plants activates the DMT. And that tea that is made from these herbs is what you’re drinking. That is what people call ayuhuasca when you’re high on ayuhuasca it is this mother figure that is like guiding you through. And some people see her in their visions and stuff. So like, there’s this like spirit behind all these drugs because they all come from nature and they’re not addictive. And honestly, actually, after you do a psychedelic trip, it’s like such a deep experience because you’re working through all the shit that’s gone on in your life. You’re crying, you’re like processing the whole time. It’s like real deep therapy. At the end of it. You’re just like, so exhausted. There’s no way you’re like, hit me up with another. Like it’s not addictive at all. Like anyone who’s done psychedelics for therapy knows that you’re like I need five years of another one of those.
Jesse Lin 25:42
I think we wanted to take a moment and really talk about like, why most of these things are banned. Generally, everyone agrees that that has been due to the fact that we’re like in this ongoing war on drugs to try and limit access to the substances and also penalize people who tried to access these substances. Most people have come to the consensus that the war on drugs is generally a failure. It hasn’t really stopped the supply chain of drugs.
Angela Lin 26:08
I think part of why the war on drugs is a failure is that they treat marijuana for example the same as like heroin really bad for you shit that is like addictive and ruining people’s lives because once you take one hit like you can’t get yourself out of it. Marijuana, you know, it’s a natural fucking leaf that like, exists in nature and is now legal in many states. But like New York, for example, it’s still illegal and like, you could still go to jail for possessing, right but like is that the same level of effort and like destruction to society as a heroin or opioids and like shit that like is really destroying people’s lives.
Jesse Lin 26:47
That’s a vicious cycle in a sense, because like to prove that a drug has used and to move it out of a specific schedule, you have to do research against it right? Now there are I think some trials to study the effect of psilocybin and LSD and MDMA in therapeutic settings, but for a long time, it was very difficult to do that because it was like a catch 22. Even if you wanted to prove that the substances were helpful, you couldn’t because they were so illegal that you can get your hands on them. I feel like the scheduling like how dangerous this drug is, are not necessarily arbitrary, but they haven’t been revisited in a way that makes sense scheduled II which is less restrictive and can be used for some prescription purposes include amphetamines, methamphetamines, cocaine, morphine, oxycodone, so like there’s a lot of stuff on there that have been problems, especially when we’re talking about like prescription drug abuse. Yes, that are it’s like somehow on balance, like you have all these things that are causing much more public harm on schedule II where people can access them in some legal settings versus schedule I where no one can access them at all
Angela Lin 27:55
For me I did I definitely didn’t know until I read that Michael Pollan book, the war on drugs started, you know, a long fucking time ago like in the 70s. LSD was a big focus what’s ironic about that is that ever since then people have looked at LSD as like this like crazy, dangerous substance that like no one should take but actually, when it like first was created, it was proven through many clinical trials in therapeutic settings to like have huge breakthroughs. And when the war on drugs was first waged, they basically ordered that all of that evidence was destroyed, and then it was placed into that schedule that you were talking about. So there’s so much irony in all of this because it’s like you need the evidence to prove that there’s benefit but you ordered all that evidence to be destroyed, and therefore now all the other associated drugs that have the same types of benefits are fighting this uphill battle. It’s like reprove what was already proven decades ago by the LSD research. Okay, so then they’ll talking about like the future of drugs and specifically these types of drugs that we talked about today in terms of how much acceptance it’s going to gain in broader society and specifically in like Asian society, where it’s like currently super frowned upon because some of the especially the, like Southeast Asian countries, you can go to jail for life or like anything jail. Yeah. Or like is especially if you’re dealing if you’re trafficking drugs, you could face the death penalty, it’s like really harsh there so much should we really think it’s gonna change in the near to long term future
Jesse Lin 29:30
Okay, so my hope is for America and Asian Americans that perception will change by legitimizing the uses of these substances in therapeutic settings. And so the studies that are being conducted with FDA on these substances, I think that’s really where it starts where science helps to legitimize these substances as treatment for some psychiatric problems. We all know that Asians love authority and they love authoritative information so I think that that will like trickle down.
Angela Lin 29:59
I definitely think that science of it all is going to change things in the future. But I’m pretty pessimistic about it. Like, I think it’s going to take a long time for Asian countries, even with the science backing it. And it’s because therapy as a whole is not super, like widely accepted within Asian culture. So there was like a double barrier to get past for them in terms of like seeing the value of these types of drugs, so maybe sometime in the future, but I think it’s gonna be like, whenever the US or Western cultures are like super open about it, it’s gonna be like 50 to 100 years past that, I think, for people to be open to it.
Jesse Lin 30:39
I will definitely take time, but I think that this is the right way to do it to make it more legitimate from a scientific standpoint.
Angela Lin 30:54
We are now in our fortune cookie closing section. And before we go to our sweet treat, we want to as always invite our listeners to send in your personal stories about today’s topic, which is any experience you’ve had with controlled or otherwise substances and whether that’s been good or bad, we want to hear it and also about kind of like why you decided to try those substances despite your Asian upbringing. We want to hear from you email us at tell us where you’re from@gmail.com again, the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E.
Jesse Lin 31:59
Awesome. As Angela mentioned, we’re going to talk about our best experience slash memory that we have had on substances. And I will kick it off. I can’t say that I’ve had a memory because it was not a memory, it was an experience. But the very first time that I tried MDMA was the top of the tops. It was just like such a great time, dance my ass off all night. As you mentioned, it was just it was just good. Like you feel so connected to everyone that there’s this like feeling of closeness that you have had before, but not with so many people at the same time. So that’s what was so great about it. You just like feeling so deeply rooted with other people.
Angela Lin 32:42
I think we have a similar experience. So my best experience was also on MDMA, that first time I ever did a drug facilitated therapy session. So I will throw into two key things I remember from that. So first is like, as soon as it actually hit me, I was Like, oh my god, this is like the most, like you’re saying like, this is like a different state of happiness that I’ve never felt before. So I had my eye mask on, and she was playing music. And it was like I was melting into the music. Like, I could see the wavelengths of music like dancing in front of my eyes. And I like at first I was like observing it, but then eventually my body like, disappeared. And I was just like, I melted into those wavelengths until we were just like, I was the wavelength. And it was just like this beautiful feeling of like connectedness like you’re saying, and like totally out of body because I was like, I am not just this body. I’m like the spirit and I’m like, this energy and I’m connected to all the other energies. So that was like one key thing I remember. And then the other I’m gonna go super woowoo here, which is like, that whole experience is very spiritual for me. And like I distinctly remember there’s this like, recurring theme that was happening throughout my experience where I was kind of like gliding through the planet and like sometimes I was this bird like a hawk or an eagle or whatever I was like soaring through across like rivers and oceans and forests and stuff and then sometimes it would panch like it wasn’t me as the bird It was like this like bird kind of creature thing that I I knew was Mother Nature, but it was like this kind of like mixture of different creatures. Like I was like being carried by mother nature to like, across the planet to like, show me all these beautiful things and like take me on this beautiful adventure So, so beautiful. It was just like you’re connected to everything, everyone all energy. You’re like, it was
Jesse Lin 34:50
Amazing. Yeah, that sounds like such a great time. Well, if you guys really enjoyed listening to us talk about how much of a great time we had. We hope that You will like follow and subscribe us please take some time rate us on Apple Music. Let us know what you think. Let us know how you think about the episode and obviously check us out again next week. There will be another episode for you as well until next week