Angela Lin 0:22
Today we are talking about dating outside of the race, interracial relationship. I think we’ve touched on this briefly in some of our past episodes where we’ve talked about relationships, dating, sex and intimacy, that kind of stuff. But we wanted to dig into this in particular, because I think there’s a lot of like cultural things that maybe our family upbringings brought into the mix in terms of like, the way we were looking at who could be prospective partners as well as the way society and where we grew up, kind of shaped, probably the way that we were looking at who we would be attracted to, and all that stuff. So we wanted to dissect this also, because Jesse and I have mainly dated outside of the race. So it’s, yeah, so let’s just dissect our own personal lives further. Oh, and also, today’s my wedding day. So I’ll be in Spain, having my one year late post COVID wedding.
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 1:42
I was gonna say it’s an interracial wedding too, but I guess that quite translate. If you if you know, either of us personally, you’ll know that our history with dating people is basically like, we don’t date people of the same of our own race. And, as Angela mentioned, there’s very, very many reasons for that. And we’re gonna get into it now. So I will try to dig deep into my self honesty pot, and say that, I definitely feel like I don’t, I don’t date within the race. Within the race, let’s use this terminology. Because I feel like I would have too many things in common with the person in a way. And also behind that the dynamics of attraction are also really, really complicated. Like I do find Asian guys attractive, like I’m into them. But it really took me a long time to get there. Because of how we grew up and being bombarded in the media of this whole like, if you wanted to be masculine, you had to look a certain way. And you had to have a certain body type. And usually, those images were not images of Asian men. So it took a long time for me to come around to the idea that Asian men were attractive, although I kind of like knew that all along, I had to like uncondition this like other muck out of the way. And then after that, like I said, I feel like they’re just too similar. And also, sometimes when I think about it, I’m like, I carry a lot of problems with me, like a lot of trauma baggage with me. And I’m like, these people probably do too, because we have kind of like a shared experience, right? So I’m like, do I really want to like these things together? Like, they might understand better, but also like they’re bringing their own emotional baggage that’s similar. So I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t if I want to do that
Angela Lin 3:53
You want different emotional baggage is what you’re saying.
Jesse Lin 3:55
That’s right. That’s right. I want the emotional baggage buffet, not the what’s the opposite of buffet with the same thing every day? Is there such a thing? I don’t know. I don’t know. The same. I don’t want to I don’t want to have the same thing. Yeah, basically. What about you?
Angela Lin 4:12
Interesting. I think some of the same stuff. Definitely the media portrayal and the societal messages about what is attractive or supposed to be attractive, definitely influenced the way that I looked at all men. And certainly Asian men. I think, for me, the bigger thing bigger two things is my own rejection of my Asian ness. Because I mean, we’ve talked about this but like, yeah, we didn’t want to be Asian and growing up is like, easier to be white. And so what why it’s not what better way but like what additional what greater additional way can I erase my own Asian-ness than to try to find a life partner who is not Asian so that I can like, tell myself how un-Asian I am, right? Especially because I think at a young age, like when we’re teenagers, adults are like this too, but especially when you’re teenagers, all you want us to be accepted and to be loved by other people. And you seek validation from the outside world. So if you were able to attract and maintain a not Asian person who at the time we thought was like superior to Asians, because we didn’t want to be Asian, then you’re kind of like validating to yourself, how important you are, because you’re able to, like, magnetize a superior person, right? So I think that was a lot of what, like, caused me to seek that out when I was younger, at least.
Jesse Lin 6:00
Yeah, that’s, I definitely feel that. And I want to add to that, like, there’s even there’s like parts. There’s moments in my life where I look at the people that I’m attracted to. And I’m, and I have to ask myself that question. And the question is, am I attracted to them because they’re attractive? Like, they actually look good and I enjoy their appearance? Or am I attracted to them, because I want to be this person, because of all the privileges and the handing to you on a silver platter that you get as a person when you look a certain way. And honestly, for a long time, I couldn’t delineate that. And that was like really fucking me up because I was like, not couldn’t couldn’t distinguish if I was interested in the person or interested in this idea of the person. Yes. Yeah.
Angela Lin 6:55
Yeah. And I think there’s also, like, definitely, when I was younger, I think I did similar exercises, where I had to be like, am I attracted this person because of this or because of some other thing? And for me, I do think there was a point in my life where I was like, if this person weren’t white, how many points would I subtract from like, how attractive I think they are? Right? And like, when you have to ask yourself that kind of question. It’s actually pretty revealing because I think sometimes I was like, this person is terrible, or like they you know, they’re not special. And if they were Asian, or if they were a different minority would I think they’re that interesting. No. So it’s, I definitely think a lot of it is just a mirror onto ourselves of like, what we wanted to be and therefore what we were trying to reel in ourselves.
Jesse Lin 7:52
Yeah, I totally agree.
Well, I think we can also take a look at it from the lens of like, what our cultural expectations are in terms of who we date and by cultural expectations we mean our parents because they’re, they’re the enforcers, the arbiters of culture.
Oh? Oh of our, our culture?
Well, you know, it’s not like other Asian people are like you must date Asian people they don’t know you like that. They don’t care,
Angela Lin 9:40
I don’t know the way you said it was like, oh, wow. Our parents are like influencers. They’re like on the cutting edge of culture.
Jesse Lin 9:49
Well, you guys listen to the episode with Shibani they represent this like very fixed time capsule of culture and it’s kind of interesting. It’s like visiting a museum, because those things don’t exist anymore. Like, it’s it’s a very good point. But I will say with my parents, and I’ve mentioned this before, they’ve never really brought up anything related to dating. I’m sure the expectations are like, date a, nice Asian girl, nice Asian girls, Taiwanese, nice Asian girl speaks Mandarin, she probably cooks very well, some, you know, your regular kind of concept of what a good wife would be like, but obviously being like extremely pink sheep, it did not pan out that way. And I don’t think either of my parents have really mentioned anything about that. In terms of a specific race that they would like me to date. I think the most recent thing that my mom mentioned was that, like, she just wants to make sure that I’m seeing someone that is kind. And she was also like, I like people who are gregarious, like, very friendly. And she also said she would like to be able to communicate with this person. So I guess this is where the gregariousness comes in. Because even if you can’t speak the same language, you can be like, yeah, and you know, get along that way. You have many, you have many layers there to share.
Angela Lin 11:16
Interesting. I could talk for hours, I could talk for hours about this, because this, this was the second half of what I was saying of like, my big reasons is, my parents cram this down my throat from when I was like, at any, at the first age where like, boys are potential, like, interest in your life instead of something you hate, right? Because when you’re younger, you’re like, Oh, I hate you, you vice versa with girls, right? But then, basically, from the time I could have ever developed a crush, they started like, trying to brainwash me with these, like, very strict rules. It was very weird, because at the same time that they were like, you’re not allowed to date. They were still indoctrinating me with their, like hopes and desires of who I would end up being with. And for them, it was well, it was weird, because when I was growing up, when I was younger, my dad was always more kind of like, aloof in the conversation where he made it seem like he was more liberal about the prospects of like, whoever I would be with. But my mom always had like, a very strict opinion. And she was like, has to be Chinese or Taiwanese, like, can speak Mandarin. Like has to be this kind of person. Yeah, um, but it really was pretty focused, because I think I had this conversation with other other friends as well. Because, you know, we teed up this episode as inside or outside the race, but the race is a very broad term, right? And for some parents who are Asian, they’re like, hey, as long as you like, kind of look like me, you’re, you’re good enough, right? Like also Asian. For my mom, it was not also Asian It was like, had to be a Chinese speaking person, because my brother would also play the like, what if she ends up with the Korean American or whatever it she would be like no. It was, it was all no, except for like these, this very narrow band. And we talked about this in our like, dating stuff, dating episodes, but like, because she was always indoctrinating me with this stuff, but also, not allowing me to date. I was like, I felt even more fucked up. Because in my head, I was like, I’m not even attractive to anyone, because like, I have had zero relationships. And you’re trying to like crush my probabilities of ending up with someone even further by limiting me to this, like very tiny percentage of people. What if I just end up alone forever? Like, I think it was a really like, negative loop for me, because I just felt pretty, like hopeless to me where I was like, you. I don’t know that I’m gonna be able to fulfill this. And maybe I’ll just end up alone. So it was it was a pretty like, rough kind of, like, a expectation or like, thing to live up to.
Jesse Lin 14:13
Yeah, I mean, it is a lot of pressure. Let me ask you a deep probing question. Do you feel like being squeezed that way actually drove you away?
Angela Lin 14:25
Yes. And that’s why I was saying it’s, it was a huge influence to me. And what is funny though, is I was pretty adamant of like, well fuck that if you’re going to be so like, strict with me that that’s all you accept then like, I’m not gonna date someone who’s like that. And I think for me, I I didn’t didn’t explicitly say like, I’m not gonna date Asian people. It just kind of like worked out that way. But it in my head. I remember thinking Like, oh, wouldn’t it be ironic if I did somehow still ended up with like a Taiwanese American Yeah. And I remember thinking that and then also at the same time, it was like, I mean, I wouldn’t care. Like, if that’s how I ended up with great, but like, I’m not going to be seeking out that person. I was like, that’s the only kind of person that I can end up with. So I was never like, I was outwardly like, fuck that. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna do this kind of person, because you’re telling me I have to, but inwardly I was, because I felt so like, unappealing to people. Because I had zero dating experience, I think secretly on the inside, I was like, I don’t care like I, you know, I, I’m gonna end up with, like, whoever is interested in me that I’m also interested in. And even if it’s a Taiwanese American, my mom secretly wins this in the end, like, I’ll suck it out. Because that’s better than being like alone, which was my like, fear, big fear.
Jesse Lin 16:00
Got it. So I know, we’re supposed to be talking about like, into, like a racial makeup of the date, people we date, but I did want to ask, like, did you ever get a sense from your parents, aside from the race and language component of the kind of person they want you to date?
Angela Lin 16:18
No they did not give a fuck? No, that’s not true, actually. Like, you know what, it’s not true. And it is true. The only other thing they said is, well, my dad really pushed that they should be rich. That’s it. They didn’t give a shit about how this person treated me, or I mean, I’m sure they did, but they never spoke about it. They did not care about like, intellectual, you know, compatibility interests, that kind of stuff. Um, I think there was always though an unspoken thing that like, they should be at the same kind of like, intellectual. Like, what I don’t think at the time, I was like, I’m going to go to grad school, but like, you know, whatever I ended up with, I think they were implicitly saying, like, wherever you’re at, they should at least be at that to be like acceptable. I think that was always there. They never said it. But they never talked about personality or whatever. I think my mom had this very naive belief that like, as long as she could communicate, natively, you know, native tongue wise with someone, she would get along with them, no matter what. I’m like, that’s pretty bizarro to like, think that way because we’re not all the same.
Jesse Lin 17:36
I am always curious, because like, they’re coming from such a different place where it wasn’t even possible to date somebody not in the race, right? So sometimes I think about it. And I wonder if they even kind of what you’re describing, like, they just can’t picture it for you. Because it didn’t exist for them.
Angela Lin 17:56
Yeah.
Jesse Lin 17:57
But because of the pressure that we had in like, the, I guess the negative associations that we had with our culture growing up, we were like, we do see possibilities of dating other people, and we’re gonna go, we’re gonna do that. And we prefer doing that.
Angela Lin 18:10
Yeah, and I think I talked about this a little bit previously. But I mean, looking back, now I have a lot more empathy towards what my mom was trying to get at, which is, I think she was coming from a place of fear herself, which is like, I can see how she would have wanted to be able to rely on like, future family, right? She’s like, forecasting out very far when I was like, 11 thinking of this stuff, right? But like, you know, thinking into old years, like, Who am I gonna spend time with my, my family, my extended family, and like, I want to be able to be very close with that family. And language being a barrier will be a detriment to me being able to be close with them. So I definitely have a lot of empathy for that, especially now, because I am married to someone who can’t speak Chinese. And I totally understand it. I just think the way that it was presented as, which is so typical Asian parent, right, which is like this is a mandate, you have no choice, like that kind of way of presenting it made it much more unlikely that I was gonna end up down that path. So I feel for her and I’m trying everything I can to like, make it smoother, but it – yeah, it was not the right approach at the time.
Jesse Lin 19:32
Well, what do you think are? What do you think are some of the good points and bad points to dating someone outside of the race and let’s just say for the purpose of what we’re discussing somebody that doesn’t fit this Taiwanese Mandarin speaking mold that our parents would be most interested in?
Angela Lin 19:52
I see. Um, I think the pro of dating someone outside the race is definitely, I’ll expand on your diversification of emotional baggage. That’s not really the top of my list of like, I want different kind of baggage. But for me, it’s definitely like diversity of thoughts and diversity of culture. Because you know, like, we grew up Taiwanese American, we have our own culture that we were raised on. And we have a lot to offer to, you know, there’s a lot of interesting history, customs, food and stuff that we bring, because of the way we were raised. I really like exchanging those things with Ramon, he’s from Spain. So it’s like really fun to see him light up when he’s like, oh, let me teach you how to make this like tapa that we eat in Spain all the time that like any bar has this and makes me feel at home or like, Oh, I’m gonna turn on like flamenco music, because I really like you know, it’s fun to share those things and to broaden your own worlds. By having someone introduce there’s, it’s like you add up multiple little worlds, and it becomes like a bigger world. Right. So I think that’s one of my favorite things, how about you.
Jesse Lin 21:12
I have to agree, I think that, although I, I need to preface this with I have not dated cultured white people I mean like a white person from Europe, or a country of like, long historical significance. Most of the white people I’ve dated are people who were born in the US, and that means their culture is trash. So..
Angela Lin 21:34
Hey, whoa.
Jesse Lin 21:36
No, but I mean, like, they don’t have like, they don’t have those things that you mentioned, there’s no flamenco music, there’s no, there’s none of that stuff. But each kind of person brings a different flavor, as you mentioned, to the relationship. And although it might not be a preference, or knowledge or information that is historically or culturally important, it is a different perspective, like you said, and I find that very interesting, because you never know what a person is going to be interested in, and like where those interests come from. And those are the moments where you really learn a lot of stuff, because you become you’re interested in the person, so you become interested in what they’re interested in. And from there, you learn a lot of different things that you probably personally would never have gotten any interest in, or tried to figure anything out about or find more information about. So I definitely agree with you that I think dating people of different races helps to bring a different perspective and helps you learn new things, even if they aren’t from a country of historical relevance.
Angela Lin 22:49
Okay, what about your con, or cons?
Jesse Lin 22:53
I will say that, for me, there’s always a little bit of distrust when I’m dating people outside of the race, particularly when it comes to white people, because I’m very cautious of dating people who are rice queens. And I have, do you know what that term is?
Angela Lin 23:10
No, but I can guess.
Jesse Lin 23:13
A rice queen is basically a white gay man. Or it could be it any kind of person who’s like a real into Asian people and like fetishizes Asian people. That’s the main thing that I’m on the lookout for, because while I like getting attention, I don’t like getting attention for that only specific reason. It’s very uncomfortable. And usually there’s like, some stereotypes attached to what the rice queen thinks you are. And I don’t like that. So that’s like, the first thing that I’m kind of like, oh, that can be kind of icky. It’s like a little bit of minefield, you might find someone who’s really nice. And it’s like, oh, no, I also, you know, sometimes, depending on the person, it’s not every person, but it can be really hard to explain to a person, what their privileges and just come eye to eye on those experiences, because we grew up. I don’t know, I want to say that I was low middle class and really kind of middle class. And I’ve definitely met people and dated people that were, you know, their family had money, and they didn’t quite understand the mismatch of perspective and like, why I would see certain issues a specific way, and not be able to reconcile those different perspectives. So I’ve definitely found that that’s been also a challenge, although it’s not necessarily a racial challenge, per se. I think those are like the main ones. It’s like always, making sure people aren’t like really fetishizing you and like, trying to get on the same page with somebody.
Angela Lin 24:54
Yeah. I agree with you. I mean, the rice queen thing is basically the gay version of yellow fever, right? So yeah, that annoying. Although let me throw this back at you though we hate people who have yellow fever who are rice queens. But what is the difference between those people and us where we were like, I’ll only date a white person.
Jesse Lin 25:17
I mean, to me, I don’t know if there really is a difference. Because you’re in both situations, you’re making a preference choice for not necessarily the person, but just how they appear and the associations with that appearance. So I don’t necessarily see that there is a difference.
Angela Lin 25:41
But then, so then based on your own, like way that you approach people who have those tendencies wouldn’t wouldn’t it be the same way with like, white guys who’d be like, Oh, are you Oh, my, but that I guess that’s the difference is that white people would never think like, oh, you’re only into me, because I’m white? Because that’s their the majority’s. It’s just like, oh, no, I’m special. That’s what you like me.
Jesse Lin 26:10
I think this is one of those that was like, kind of relate to saying which one of those things that they don’t need to think about, necessarily, versus like, as a minority person, you’re constantly thinking about all these like, weird things that are not really related to you as your person, but are also important to they’re not related to you as a person, but they are very prescient everywhere in terms of how people think and see you. And that’s not necessarily the same case for Caucasian or white people.
Angela Lin 26:43
Yes. And I’m thinking about it further. I think there is also a difference in that, like, a lot of times that people who are attracted only to Asian people are attracted because they attach like you said, the stereotypes or like, they really like manga, and they really like boba, and they’re just like, I just love all these things about Asian culture. You are those things. Yeah, you were like the embodiment of all these things. Versus for us. It’s not like, I love football, and I love hamburgers. And you are the embodiment of every American thing – corn on the cob! Like, we’re that’s not what we’re looking at. We’re we are pining after what society has told us is the superior thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jesse Lin 27:41
That’s what we want. We don’t care. We don’t care about you. We want your privilege.
Angela Lin 27:46
And not to say that’s any better. But it is, I think, not to say either is better than the other, but they’re different. They’re different in like, what you’re actually seeing the other person is offering to you. So interesting.
Jesse Lin 28:40
All right. Well, listeners, we are entering the fortune cookie, since we always like to end on a sweet treat. And we thought it would be fun to discuss, what’s the thing that we have the most trouble explaining to our partners? Angela, would you like to go first?
Angela Lin 28:59
Yes, I have it. Um, it’s funny because we were very light. And then you introduce this as the fun close. But the thing I’m gonna say is like pretty heavy. The thing that I’ve had the most trouble explaining to Ramon is the concept of duty. And like duty slash obligation and saving face like they’re, they’re all kind of interconnected, right? And, like as to why I’m making the decisions that I’m making in my life. Like at work, if I’m like killing myself at work, he’ll be like, why are you doing that they don’t pay you enough like the you don’t need to be doing XYZ. And I would be like, I told them I was gonna do this thing. Like I I put myself out there. I made this promise and it’s my duty to do this thing because I said I was gonna do it. I’m not talking about like, I was gonna like double check the file and I didn’t do that. I’m talking about like big projects, right? Like, or like, we were talking about decisions with the wedding and stuff. And I like vetoed some things because I was like, No, because that would like, be really embarssing, like it would be disgraceful. And he was like, I didn’t even think about it that way. Like, I’m like you don’t understand how much how much importance and weight the idea of like presenting your best foot forward and like saving face looking good in front of other people and like being a really like, dignified person that’s like true to your word is important to Chinese culture, and how much that is ingrained in me in the way that I make decisions and the way that like, my parents will perceive things and stuff. And it’s been really interesting because it’s been coming up more recently, I think because of the wedding. We’re like planning a lot of stuff. But it’s, it’s something I’ve recently like dissected I was like, this is this is heavy. And it’s like, it wouldn’t be something I’d have to explain to another, like Chinese Taiwanese person, or even a lot of other Asian people also have this kind of these values. Right? So it was a big disconnect. And it’s something that we’re like, learning yes, and learning together and like working through and but yeah, it’s it’s really difficult to explain that kind of thing. Because otherwise shown to us, it’s just like, it’s just understood. Like, that’s incredibly important. But how about you, hopefully it’s lighter than mine?
Jesse Lin 31:42
I’ll keep it light. I was gonna say something, not not heavy.
Angela Lin 31:46
No throw your real answer, throw your real answer.
Jesse Lin 31:49
No, this was my really answer. But it’s, it’s really just the little things like, the way that I think about it is that when you’re with another person of the same experience. So a Taiwanese American person who can barely speak any Mandarin, there’s some things that you have gone through that are very similar. And so it’s almost like you share an inside joke, your life is an inside joke. And so there are many things in your life that you can just understand, you don’t need to explain it. And it’s all these like small things out in the world. Like when you’re ordering food, or you see something funny on the street, or you’re talking to someone about something specific, like what you were just saying, those are all things that you don’t have to explain necessarily to someone who’s lived your experience. And it’s always something that you have to explain to somebody who’s not of the same race. And a lot of the times kind of like what you’re saying, it’s not, you just can’t explain it. And or, like, if you’ve explained it, like explaining an inside joke, it’s not funny anymore. Or it’s not interesting anymore, or just as kind of like it factually doesn’t seem to have significance, right? Because I think that’s kind of like what Ramon is saying, He’s like, this doesn’t make factual sense, necessarily, right. So it’s those things where you’re just kind of like this is very important, but you’re never going to understand because it’s like a lived experience thing. And me explaining it even doesn’t make it make sense for you.
Angela Lin 33:21
Well, we’ve gone through a lot, a lot of our own baggage on this episode. If you listeners have an experience a story about someone you’ve dated or the way your parents brought you up thinking about this topic, or you vehemently disagree with us on what we on our perspectives on interracial dating. Write us in at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. Remember that we’re always looking for listener submitted stories for our reflections episodes. So write us in about this or anything else you want to and maybe you’ll be featured on an upcoming episode.