Jesse Lin 0:15
This week we’re going to talk about something that is a huge topic for all of us, dating. Dating is such a contentious thing. I think one of the first things that we wanted to chat about dating is this, like, inevitable question that you get, especially as a person of color when you’re dating other people, and they ask you, where you’re from? Thoughts?
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Angela Lin 0:40
I hate it. I mean, I hate it anytime anyone asks me that. But it is this funny thing because people always like dance around like they’re trying to like find the words to not be offensive and you’re like, oh my god. Well, I’m from fucking Orange County and then but I think what you mean is where my parents are from -Taiwan. But one of the things that’s interesting to me about this is like, it’s not just all white people, like, I also get this question from other Asian people. And obviously, it depends on like, the way they ask, but like, it can still be offensive. So like, I specifically remember in Chicago when I was in business school, and like a random stranger stopped me on the street. He was an Asian dude. And I forget how he opened it up, but he like clearly was trying to hit on me and either the first or second thing he said to me was like, oh, what are you? And I was like, excuse me? What? Why does that even matter? And why did you make that your like opening line. So bizarre.
Oh, my God, I have to agree with you there like, I also think the same way. I’m like, look, I get it. Like you kind of want to figure out like my ethnic background. But come on, like, ladies and gentlemen, take note on a first date. If that’s like something that you have on your list to ask someone and you have nothing more interesting to ask someone, that’s gonna be a hard pass for me. Like, first date should be like getting to know each other, like, your basic things that you like, and the person that you are. And those weird questions should come kind of like, after that’s my that’s my opinion. Because when I’m getting to know someone, like I want to know, like, their character, I want to know things that they’re interested, I want to know, like, all the things that make the person a person that is not necessarily like just your physical traits, because I can see you I know what you look like.
Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, I think it like it’s a question that’s very easy and most commonly taken as something offensive. I do think there are like, natural ways to get at that question that don’t come off as offensive like if you’re already talking about, I don’t know your family or like your travels or something and like naturally comes up because you – or like you offer it up. Yeah, like is related to what you’re saying, then that’s fine. But like yeah, I don’t love it when people just especially when it’s one of the first things they ask.
I always wondering like, Why do people ask that? Why does that seem like so high up on like a list of like first date questions that people get asked.
I mean, the way I interpret it is like, it’s still a lot of like exoticism, even though, like Asians are everywhere now, but like, if you’re not a person of color, especially like the fact that you have an answer is like something kind of exotic. So I don’t know. But I do think it has to do with just like foreignness and like a curious way? I don’t know.
Yeah, I think it’s a very good way to ask the question if you’re trying to understand more about the person’s background in general, but they don’t ask you about necessarily like your childhood or like, what it was like growing up as a child of like first generation immigrants, like there’s no extension of the conversation where it appears to be like an interest about you and your life.
Basically what we’re saying is that if it’s going to come up early, it better be organic. And if it’s later that’s more more natural, probably after you’ve gotten to know each other better.
We just talked a little bit about this first question, which I don’t think either of us find particularly appealing, but one of the things that we just touched upon was the idea of being Asian as being exotic. And a lot of the times there is a lot of like fetishizing.
Yeah, I think it’s that one.
Jesse Lin 4:52
Fetishizing of the fact that you are an Asian person, and it’s very, very, very deeply uncomfortable when you go on a date with somebody who’s like super, super ultra into Asian things. For me personally because as soon as that happens like as soon as someone’s like, oh, I love to watch anime, I love to read manga, I went to Japan like three times in the last year. That’s like, “mm-mm”, a red flag immediately because then I’m like, okay, like are you actually interested in dating me as a person? Or are you just interested in like tokenizing me as another thing to add to your like shelf of Asia things? Which if I can’t make that delineation I’m out.
Angela Lin 5:37
Yeah, no, I feel you I think I’ve like as someone who rejected their Asian identity as like a younger adult right or young high school through like young adult life, and was always trying to date outside of the race. I think the concept of the yellow fever has always been at the top of my mind and it’s, it is a funny concept because if you think about it me wanting to date outside my race is almost like the opposite of yellow fever, like whatever yellow fever is but for like white people, because I was like exclusively excluding, you know, Asian people in what I was trying to date. But I didn’t really think about it that way until like, I examined it a bit more. But the irony of that is that then when I was looking to date, non-Asian people, I would always be on the alert of like, are they just into me because they have yellow fever. And I have dated people who like, you could classify as having had yellow fever. And it’s something that really annoys me because it’s just like what you said, it’s like, do you even seen or do you just seeing like someone else that like fits this standard that you typically go after that like helps you fulfill some sort of weird fantasy. But what I will say is that there are people that like actually do enjoy those pieces of like Eastern culture and it’s not just like a surface level thing so for example, my fiance.
l mean Ramon loves Japan that’s like his shit. But it’s not like he loves all of Asia and it’s not like he like is all about everything Asian it’s it’s a specific pieces of the Japanese culture that like he is really drawn to because it’s, it aligns with his personalities. So he’s like super Zen. So he like loves the concept of Zen and like keeping things minimalistic and blah, blah, blah and like meditates and things like that. So like, he like picks and chooses things about the culture that like resonate with him. And so, but I will like when I first learned that he was like all about Japan, I definitely was like, “ding-ding-ding”. But yeah, I think just like dig a little bit because I will say I was like very quick to judge with people who I like assumed have yellow fever. I think there are still a fair number of people out there who really do just have yellow fever, and they’re just gonna date all the Asian people ever because that’s just all they do. And they don’t have any appreciation for Asian culture in like a real sense. But there are some people that can defy that. I’m marrying one of them. I mean, I think both you and I have dated and continue to date people outside of our race, and that’s an interesting thing to talk about, though, because of how it relates to our identities and how our lives like parents have raised us and what their expectations have been on us in terms of like, our future partners and the futures that we’ll live together with these people, right? I definitely grew up with like really heavy expectations laid down on me by my parents in terms of who I should be dating and end up marrying and spending the rest of my life with and it’s been like, it was like, ingrained in my brain since I was in the like, potential age for dating. Maybe like 12 or 13. And they were like, you can only end up with a, their ideal was a Taiwanese, Mandarin speaking. Boy.
Jesse Lin 9:49
You know, it’s funny because I feel like we have pretty different parent expectations when it comes to dating or I just have like blinders on for most of my life regarding those expectations. But I feel like my parents didn’t talk to me at all about dating. Generally speaking, like, there was still an expectation set because I have older cousins. And I remember that obviously like, yes, like they want a similar race girl that can speak Mandarin. But the truth is that I feel like generally the family was like, pretty hands off regarding like, who they wanted me to date.
Angela Lin 10:31
Well, that’s nice. Yeah, that’s nice.
I will say, yeah, I think that I understand my parents desires enough to understand what they want out of a person that I will date, which is I think they want obviously, they want someone that will take care of you because at some point, they’re going to be too old and they want to know that you have a partner that will look after you and I think that’s like every parent wants that. And then the second thing is like, I think my mom is much more realistic than my dad and probably your parents and she, she understands that like, just probably not really a high chance that I will end up dating an Asian boy that can speak flawless Chinese. So she did tell me this one time she was like, it’s cool, like whoever you date, but I would prefer them to be like a very like bubbly gregarious person. And so from that perspective, like I kind of get it like she, she gets that there’s like this impossible thing. There’s no way that we’re going to be able to match up with somebody that’s like this ideal Asian expectation. But at least you can bring somebody into the family that’s like friendly, that’s willing to engage with you even if there is a language barrier. And I think that that’s what my mom has set the expectation as. And she wears the pants for my dad in the dating theory. So I take her word of like, what they both want.
Well, that’s nice that your mom has such a progressive outlet. I think my parents have had to shift their outlook because obviously I’m marrying someone and he is not Taiwanese or Chinese but I can empathize with where my parents were coming from of like, why they were trying to restrict me into that kind of a person. It was definitely language barrier and like cultural understanding. Like my mom had expressed to me that she wanted to be able to have like, deeper conversations with whoever I was actually going to be with versus like pleasantries, essentially. And I will say I like I always kind of blew that off until I met Ramon. Well, because his family doesn’t speak English so I have to speak Spanish with them. And when I first met them, and we were having conversations. I definitely could feel that where I was like, I have so much I want to say but I don’t know how to say it because I don’t have that popularity and so you don’t even like fully know who I am because I can’t express it. So I definitely empathize with like the original sentiment but it did feel limiting to me when I thought about like who I could end up with because love in general is such a like fickle and like difficult and numbers based thing. Like you have to date so many people to find the right person and you still might not find that right person after like dating a million people so to say that I could only you know, even have a certain small kiddie pool version of like the broader pool of candidates was something difficult for me to reconcile with at the time.
Okay, well, let’s talk about the whole like being able to relate thing because I feel like neither of us have really dated people have the same race. But I think that with the whole idea of relating, I do feel that when you are having a conversation with an ABC like yourself, there are so many more things that you don’t need to explain to them. And you have like this immediate connection where you can like, go through stories about things that are related to an ABC experience where you don’t have to, like build the foundation of it. It’s kind of like an inside joke, but you don’t have to, like establish a rapport to have that understanding. And I do find that that’s very refreshing because like, you can speak to someone who’s gone through the same kind of trials and tribulations and have an immediate connection there as opposed to trying to explain that experience to someone who does not have the same life experience. It’s like very hard and difficult.
Yeah, I can completely relate to that. I like you have not had like a serious relationship with anyone Asian but I’ve had dates and I’ve had, you know, casual whatever’s and I will say, yeah, I I can relate to what you’re saying about like not having to say anything. It’s like an unspoken connection that you already have built in just because you’ve had that similar lived experience as them. And it’s weird because it kind of gives you this false sense of like you know them or you’re like you’re like closer to them than you would otherwise be with someone else given the same amount of time of knowing this person. But with that said you and I didn’t end up with any Asian people but like I think there is value there is definitely value in sharing that and I’m sure that’s also why you and I have a bunch of Asian American friends. I mean, those are all relationships and I know for me a big part of it is like being able to relate to one another in our life experiences in the way our parents brought us up, you know, the experiences we’ve had and in life growing up and all that so I can see it for sure.
Do you think that like part of the reason….necause I’ve thought about this, I’m like, well, there are like very many attractive Asian men and I’ve always wondered kind of like, why none of them have fell into my dating pool and it’s not for – and I don’t believe it’s due to self selection. Because like, when I was on Hinge, I was like, everybody, everybody gets a like, everybody gets a like, but I’m wondering sometimes if it’s just that, like, it’s too familiar, you normally say like opposites attract. And so when you go on a date with somebody that’s like, has a very similar life experience. You’re kind of like, oh, it’s like dating me, and I don’t really like that.
I actually disagree. I think why it never worked out for me as I never found someone who was enough like me. Because I think I even told you this when we were growing up where I was like I could see myself ending up with like a like fate would have it I would end up with like a Taiwanese American who can speak Chinese. But they would have to be exactly like me like they would have to be ABC for sure. And they’d have to be, like, have a similar sense of humor and like be interested in the similar things and like, and feel like my equal and I didn’t really come across any of those people. There is one of them – people I’m like, thinking of it in my head that I didn’t end up dating at all, but I had a connection with. He’s like one of two Asian people that I was like, I don’t know, maybe I will end up with this person. And we only really hung out like twice, but it’s kind of what I’m saying of like you feel this false ish sense of like deeper connection and intimacy with someone when you have those shared experiences so not only did we have the shared like ABC experience but he happened to be very similar to me in like he worked in entertainment before he like was trying to do something different with his life and like they’re just like I forget all the other things but like there were many things where I was like oh my god are you me but like a dude that was like my kind of criteria loosely growing up was like, if I’m gonna end up with a Taiwanese or Chinese-American person, it would have to be because they’re like, exactly like me.
That’s so Leo of you.
So what do you think it will be like to date somebody that isn’t ABC that’s like straight from like, Taiwan or not, I mean, straight but like, you know, originally grew up in China or Taiwan or other Asian country and moved here like halfway through their life.
I think there’s a difference between someone who like just moved here within the last year, versus someone who lives here as still like a young enough adult that they have, like spent enough adult years in America, like, ingrained some of the Western culture into how they are. Because for example, like in our Pride episode we had Tong on as our guest, and she has been in America since like, masters, or whatever. And so, like many years of living in the Western culture, even though she was born and and grew up in China, so I think those are two very different kinds of people. Because, like, for me, when I was thinking about this growing up, I was like, I don’t think I could date someone who is like, fresh from Taiwan or China, because just culturally we’re very different. And it’s something that I always had to talk with my parents about, and they never understood because they’re from Taiwan. So they like don’t get it. But I was like, we would have nothing in common and they’re like, What do you mean? You’re both Taiwanese, I’m like, that is totally different. I’m American, like, yes, my blood and how I look, I am Taiwanese, but like, I have a completely different life experience from this person. So to think that we’re gonna, like, automatically hit it off is a little delusional. So that’s, um, and we yeah, we argued a lot about this, because they could not see eye to eye with me on it. But if it were someone who lived in America for a few years, and like, has been Westernized, I think that’s very different, because then they’ve, you know, adjusted and they’re American in that sense, like America is founded on immigrants. And then they like, you know, embed themselves into our little weird hodgepodge culture that exists here. And so, once they’ve had that experience of being in the West, then we have things to relate to.
Well, I think something interesting that you just mentioned, while we were talking about that was how your parents are saying like, oh, what do you mean, you have nothing in common? He’s Taiwanese, you’re Taiwanese? And that made me think about like how simple things were in the past that your that your compatibility is based, like, oh, did you grew up in the same valley that I grew up in, and we both are farmers. And we can trade goods and objects with the exchange of your vows. And that was basically it. Versus like, now, there’s girl there’s so many choices when it comes to dating, like, and we’re and we’re talking about dating kind of just within the general framework of like, monogamy, marriage and kids, but there’s like so many different kinds of relationship structures that exist now. And so many ways you can date people in terms of the relationship structure, but overall, like how you can even access dating in terms of apps or like how you can meet and see people, the like, combinations are just like, so mind boggling that I can’t even imagine. I cannot imagine putting one of our parents through that process now like I would pay $50 to see that.
That’s not a lot of money. I would pay more way more money than that.
Well you can match my $50, we can go up to $100.
Yeah, no, I hear you. And I would love to see that, that’d be fucking hilarious. But I also don’t think it’s, I think like, obviously, as you go back and generations it gets like simpler and simpler, of course, but I feel like even people of our generation who found their person, before apps and online dating became a thing would not know how to exist right now in like this type of modern dating world. Because technology has like completely shifted the way that you are dating to a point where like, you, you have to act way differently. You’re like, the way you have conversations is really different the way you would like filter people out of consideration is completely different. Because I have plenty of friends like, I’m sorry, I’m like, so happy I’m out of the dating game. It’s like the fucking worse. I hate dating. But when I was still dating, I had friends who were in long term relationships or like married. And they they would be the people who like never had to do apps or online dating ever. Like they had locked down their person prior to that. And I resented the shit out of them and they’d say things like, oh, I kind of wish I were single right now so I could like try out Tinder and Bumble and I was like, go fuck yourself. It’s not fun. Like you’re delusional if you think that this is like fun and games. You’re lucky that you were taken.
Jesse Lin 23:50
Well, I think that’s part of the difficulty that the modern world has brought to dating because it’s the idea that you can never be – the ease of accessing it makes it feel like you can never be satiated with one person. And I think a lot of people have this misconception regarding a relationship is that like, oh, the connection that you the initial connection that you feel with someone is what you ride in that relationship. That’s not the case, like a relationship is you make decisions to like, grow and nurture the relationship. And some of those decisions are disgusting and gross, and you have to like deal with it. But that’s like, part of being in a relationship. It’s not just riding, like an endless good wave to the end of the thing. And I think that’s what all these like modern dating concepts, relationship structures, enable, which is that you can easily move on to your next high basically, once you’re like over the initial peak of whoever it is that you’re dating. And that makes it like really hard to like evaluate the right person because you can be like, I’m totally in love with this person now. But I think I could be totally in love with this other person. Yeah. And the truth is that you could be in love with like a million people, you just have to like pick and choose which relationship you want to nurture.
Angela Lin 25:16
Cool. So this has been fun, but we’re going to make it more fun. So we’re moving into our closing Fortune Cookie section. And we thought, a fun way to close would be to talk about our shittiest most amusing, weirdest, whatever comes to mind, but one of those dating experiences.
Okay, so I haven’t had any dates where it was just like a complete dumpster fire experience. So I’m sorry if you guys are listening for that. But I did have a very, very sad stand up moment. And this was when I was studying abroad in Spain. And so we had been talking for awhile on the internet’s and he was like, let’s meet near the Goya statue outside the Prado museum. And I was like, okay, perfect. So I showed up there and I was like really excited because like, I’ve been going through a dry spell for a while. And I was like, I just want to see any man and any man to take me do something nice. And he didn’t show up. So I was just at the Goya statue by myself waiting forever. And this was like back in 2012. So this is like before internet phones were like, fully fully available. So I was just on like, a feature phone on fucking Orange with no balance. So I was like, couldn’t even check the internet. Like I was trying to like walk around to all different hotels and kind of get on my email being like, Hello, I’m still waiting here. It all turned out fine in the end, like he basically just overslept because he had just flown in. But yeah, it was like such a sad moment.
You did end up dating him right?
Jesse Lin 26:53
Yes, I did. It happened the next so we redid it the next day and it was fine. But at first I was like, well, this is just great.
Angela Lin 27:00
That is really sad. And I’ve just I can’t help but think that some of our listeners who are like a few years younger than us or way younger than us probably have no idea what you’re talking about that like you couldn’t get on the internet on your own. I also remember being in Spain when when I did my study abroad, and it was like, you got like 50 total text messages for the month.
Well, what’s your experience?
Yeah, well, I’ll give you a completely different experience from yours. It’s not a specific date but it’s a dating experience. And what’s funny is that this is with one of the like, two Asian people that I have had dating experiences with. So I only went on like two dates with this person back in New York like a very long time ago very, and I was like, not in a good place to be dating again. I was like fresh out of relationship. I was not very charming during these dates because I was just like, bitching about this other person essentially the whole time and like mourning about modern dating and so I don’t know why he liked me so much but he essentially got like, really into me really fast. He wrote me like novels of text messages after like the first and second date about, like, how much fun he had and how he’s gonna wait for me and he was going to be like, a good committing person because I was just bitching about like, people not being committal. But I was freaked out and then I wasn’t feeling it. So I texted him back. And I was like, look, you’re a nice dude. But like, I’m sorry this is like, I’m not even in a place to be dating anyone right now it’s not gonna work out. So then after that, he added me on both Facebook and LinkedIn. And I felt really bad because I just rejected this dude. So then I was like, fine. I’ll like accept you on both these accounts. But that was a mistake. Um, so like, I remember I like, didn’t think about him at all. And then just like every few months, I would get a late night notification like I would wake up in the morning but I would see the notification with a late night timestamp that he like randomly liked something on my wall because as Facebook like way back in the day when you like you actually post shit to your wall. But he would like something on my wall from like, months ago aka he was like scrolling through my profile months back to like, find out what I was up to in my life. And he would do this periodically, including because at one time I was just like, oh my God, why are you so obsessed with me? Like why do you keep bothering me so then I like clicked on his profile. He was engaged to someone at the time and he was still liking my shit in the middle of the night on Facebook. So I at that point, when I found out he was engaged, I’m like that’s fucked up. And I feel bad for your woman. So I blocked him on Facebook. And I was like this, I’m not dealing with that. And then lo and behold, like one year later or whatever, I then periodically it’s like once a year now maybe it hasn’t happened for a while now, but like it felt like it was at least once a year. But then I would see on LinkedIn, like this person has viewed your profile and I was like, bro, get over it. I’m not even that special, we like hung out twice, and nothing happened. I don’t get it.
Jesse Lin 30:32
Wow. I guess you’re like the one that got away for him.
Angela Lin 30:36
Apparently, but he didn’t know me. I don’t know. It was weird. And kind of stalkery so.
Jesse Lin 30:42
Okay, guys. Well, we hope you enjoy this conversation on dating. After 22 episodes, we’re taking a short hiatus so that we can recharge our batteries and try to regain our mental states which corona has terribly destroyed.
Angela Lin 31:01
I think the way that we’re planning on doing this moving forward is in these like, quote unquote, seasons. So like the season has been very long, because, frankly, Jesse and I did not think before far ahead enough to plan out our episodes and we just wanted to keep chugging along and pumping out good content. But in the future, we’re gonna do seasons more like this, where we like, have a set number of episodes, and then we need to take a little break, because if you want good content, our brains need to be relaxed.
Jesse Lin 31:33
So we’ll be back for you guys with more content and a new season in early September?
Angela Lin 31:40
Mid-September. So that’s our big news. But as always, if you enjoyed our topic today, or you have some juicy stories of your own on your dating stories, or the way that your parents kind of put pressure on you or whatever else, so we talked about today that you have your own personal stories about please write us in telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the YOU’RE is Y-O-U-R-E. I’m extra pushing this hard because one of the things you want to do when we come back in our second season is we want to do another one of our reflections episodes where we do the listener spotlights. So we’re going to start collecting stories from you all again to feature next season. So please help us fill up our fodder of stories that we can pull from and if you like writing, we’d love if you could write us a review on Apple podcasts so that you can tell people why you love listening to our stuff so that other people will give us a shot because let’s be real, all of us base our decisions on customer reviews on Amazon. So please give us some good reviews on Apple podcasts so that we can get some new folks into our family.