Author: telluswhereyourefrom

Jesse Lin 0:19
Hello, I’m Jesse Lin.

Angela Lin 0:21
And I’m Angela Lin. And welcome back to another episode of But Where Are You Really From?

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Jesse Lin 0:26
This week, I’m really excited to announce we have another guest for Asians Doing Cool Shit. As you can imagine, over quarantine, I had a lot of nothing to do. So during this time, I really dive deep into YouTube. And I found that Sasha Velour, put up a video of basically a combination of all her Nightgown shows. And that’s where I saw all these amazing entertainers, including our special guest this week, and Untitled Queen, and really wanted to bring you on the show to talk about your experience with drag and just being a bi-racial person, individual in general. So please let us know what you’re all about. And when you get a chance, let us know how you would answer the question. But where are you really from?

Untitled Queen 1:15
Thank you so much. First of all, for having me. I’m super excited and also excited by the subject matter of your podcast and all the people that you’ve interviewed. So my name is Untitled Queen. I’m also known as Matthew DeLeon. But I so they’re sort of, they’re interchangeable for me. But I think a lot of people who meet me now and in my community, drag community, they call me Untitled, whether I’m in or out of drag. So where am I really from? I am a child of an immigrant father from the so called Philippines. And I am my mother, a child of my mother, who is her grandparents or her parents, my grandparents were from Boriquen, which is so called Puerto Rico. And I was born on Governors Island in New York, so called Governors Island, New York, which was originally called, which is actually called Paggank. And I currently reside on the stolen land of the Lenape – Lenapehoking – the so called Brooklyn, New York. I feel like you know, all these things I you know, which I think are really interesting, which have a lot to do, I think with my work and what I’m really interested in, in my art and life are about challenging and, and thinking about what identity is, and the more and more I think about it, the more dissolved it becomes and the more fluid and the more it changes all the time. So I think it’s a really interesting question. I feel like I have a different answer for every day, probably like every other hour, I think I’m like, oh, there’s something new or there’s something different. And I’m so you know, I’m an interdisciplinary artist, and I use drag sculpture, performance installation and writing poetry. And, as I said, I’m really interested in thinking about identity, but in its again, formless. And then and then sort of something that like, comes together, but not at the same time, sort of like coming together and coming apart at the same time. And so really challenging, thinking about these things about where we are coming from, but then also how I establish who I am based on myself and based on who I interact with and my community. So those are really the kind of main interests of of the work I do. And I’m really interested in sort of emotive, you know, intense performances that are storytelling. So I really, I really think of myself as an artist that that tells stories.

Angela Lin 3:58
I want to circle back on the way that you introduce yourself in the beginning or the where you’re from part. So I noticed you said so called a lot and stolen land and I feel like there’s definitely an interplay there with the way that you think about identity as well. So I’m curious why it’s important to you to emphasize those things and what you hope you know people take away from that.

Untitled Queen 5:00
Sure, I guess one thing I didn’t think I mentioned about some of the work I’m doing now or thinking about, I think a lot about decolonization now. And it’s sort of this, I guess, challenging. You know, colonized world, America being, for me being an American, being a European colony that, you know, is on stolen indigenous land. And then also being from and I call, I actually learned to learn this sort of term about so called from my indigenous friends, indigenous community, because the names given to these places are from colonizers, they’re not the actual names. So Puerto Rico, and Philippines are named by their Spanish colonizers. And kind of interestingly enough, like the more researching, like, Puerto Rico and the Philippines were both colonized by the Spanish crowd around actually the same year, around roughly the same time, and then also were colonized by America, also around the same time, very, very, very interesting. So I feel like dismantling that part, dismantling colonization is for me, one of the starting points is to understand like how the language has been used to try to categorize and to erase basically your language and erase, erase who you are. So, and I take this point of erasure, as a point of imagination, a point of departure, so I sort of subvert the sort of erasure, through drag through invention, through through self determination, you know, being an part of the LGBTQIA community growing up, I was always fighting that, and that was always a big interest in my artwork, you know, really trying to find pride and where I fit in, and, and like a community within that that’s always fighting against these things that have been taught through control oppression and religious institutions, institutionalized, you know, homophobia, transphobia, etc, etc.

Jesse Lin 7:09
Very interesting answer.

Angela Lin 7:10
Awesome. Thank you for explaining that.

Untitled Queen 7:13
I just I know, it’s like a lot. I have a lot to say. But for me, it’s like an I think it’s a really interesting conversation. I think that all all, you know, POC culture is in some way, is it’s a way of doing this because the world is affected by the white supremacy and the forces of European colonization from hundreds of years ago. So in some ways, I think we all have a piece of it and are doing it, and, and reclaiming and understanding who we are outside of what these other people told us who we are and tried to, like, suppress, and like watered down and dilute all this shit. And it’s in everything, which is, which is interesting, because people think, I don’t know, that white supremacy is like, these very extreme things. But it’s really like, you know, and I feel like in every aspect of life, it really, is really present. So, and it’s not something I know, I’ve figured out or that I have all the answers to, but I think it’s a really interesting question. And for me, I think my work fits fits into that process.

Angela Lin 8:25
I’m curious, how deeply you feel connected with each of your sides of like your upbringing, and sure, were you able to visit each of the islands that your parents are respectively from growing up?

Untitled Queen 8:42
I have only gone to Puerto Rico once and I’ve never been to the Philippines. And I actually did a project you know, because it has become such an interest of mine. But like, the three years ago, I was like, I had a whole thing about islands because I was born on an island and my parents are from islands, which I’ve never put together. And I was like, you know, that’s an interesting thing. Like, you know, how how I identify with, both, I feel like you know, as I said, when I was younger, there was just so many more Filipinos around and they were like, they were our family friends and like, there was just so much more of that like Filipino barbecue, there was a lot of cultural event kind of thing going on and livelihood and community there that I don’t think I’ve gotten until actually now in the nightlife scene. There have been a lot more bigger expressions of Asian diaspora. So parties like bubbleT, which are incredible. And also my friend, Emi Grate who does a show called A+ drag show that gathers Asian performers of the diaspora. So I sort of has a rekindling a little bit of that in those spaces, but there when I was young was much more, it was just my lived experience. And it wasn’t I wouldn’t didn’t think about it. Um, but then also, I just feel like I’m connected because of my immediate family. And that’s it, whom I’m around, but and then the same thing with I guess, with Puerto Rico, definitely. The same thing, I guess, more of my nightlife community, you know, there’s a lot of, I guess, if they would call themselves Latinx – you know I’m not for the term of Latinx either, because I identify that as another colonial term, so I’m just trying to figure out like, however they identify, but, but there are also a lot of those spaces that are brought together, but one of one of my great friends Horrorchata, Mexican, she puts on a show called Yes, Mama, which is a great space for you know, Latinx music, Latinx performance. So I feel like that’s how I’ve kind of connect, connected but a lot of my family don’t, I don’t live close to them anymore. They’re like in Florida, or, or whatnot. So they’re mentally here in New York.

Jesse Lin 11:08
So I mean, obviously, you’re very clearly passionate about drag and putting on these shows. So tell us like, what this drag mean to you? Like, how did you build your identity into drag or have drag as part of your identity?

Untitled Queen 11:26
Um, so I feel like, I feel like I’ve always been doing drag, and I just was like, one of the last people to know. When I was in, so I went to graduate school at Parsons in fine art, and a teacher of mine there would often say, I did these drawings of like figures. And he was like, oh, these don’t look like women or people they look like drag queens. And I was like, that’s not I don’t understand what you’re saying. And then I remember and I tell the story often that this teacher Anthony, Anthony Aziz, I give him credit because he knew. I remember we walked by this Halloween store, which is now close due to COVID really sad. Um, you know, it’s like this epic huge Halloween store with all you know, it’s 24-seven all year round Halloween store. But I remember we were walking by to go to his studio as a class and then he looked at this mannequin that was in this like nurse’s outfit and he was like, this should be you and I was like, what do you mean me and he’s like, you should be you like this. Like you go to parties as like a personality and you’re dressed up. And I was like, that’s not me at all. And then like cut to probably probably like three four years later and like that’s like all I do. Um, but he was like, no like a Leigh Bowery thing. And like so in, in graduate school, I was doing a lot of costume performance, like for video. And that’s what I that’s what I was doing, but I didn’t think of it necessarily as drag. But when I, when I came into drag, my best one my best friends in school with me, sound artist, she was a DJ for nightlife. And she was like, you should try this once. And I was like, I don’t know. And then I was like, Okay, fine. So then, I had a few friends that you know, I didn’t really know anyone in the scene other than her but she wasn’t really into Brooklyn drag, she knew Manhattan people and then, um, then I just got my feet wet and then it just like lit me up inside because drag – so I’m interdisciplinary artists and really different mediums to tell stories and drag, like, put it all together. It was like, ding, light ball because I was like, drag is not just it’s like a call it sometimes I used to call it social sculpture, which is a super annoying, like, high art term, but like, you know, it’s like sculpture, performance, drawing, media, internet media, and interaction and performance, like all together all at once. You know, it’s that’s what’s so exciting about it. And it’s a it’s a literal construction and deconstruction, of identity and flux all the time, which makes for me makes so much sense. And you you’re always doing it you know, now people you know, say like, you know, life is drag, you know, drag really points to identity as a construction and you know, for me is very interesting, you know, we talk about gender as a construction and you know, a lot of these identities and colonialism is a construction and so drag really plays with that subverts it makes fun of it, it allows you to do manifest, whatever you envision, which is very empowering, as an art form. This is why I think it’s one of the most radical and exciting art forms going on right now. And, and is what I love about is that it’s a community based art form, in the sense that I – it doesn’t exist, at least not for me by itself. To me, it can’t just be like a drag queen and you’re standing in a room and that’s it. You have to like it comes from a community to come to watch you to have a bartenders to have patrons to have a DJ to have a club or to be outside or you know all this or have a festival. You know, it relies on an interconnectivity that is wonderful, and terrible and crazy and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Angela Lin 15:14
So changing gears a little bit, but related to your passion around this and the community that you’ve built is, you know, your upbringing, you mentioned that you had a really happy childhood. And it sounds good. It sounds like then you probably had a very loving family structure. And so, you know, one of the reasons we brought you on is that our or sub-tract we consistently have on this podcast is Asians doing cool shit, right? It’s this concept of like, finding other Asians that are doing things or not like the traditional expected career paths, or what immigrant parents think was going to be a signal of success. So I’m curious what your parents thought of you going into art at large. And then once you just like, once you were realized, like drag is a really interesting way for you to express yourself through art like, how supportive have they been of that?

Untitled Queen 16:12
Sure, it’s a great question. I have to say, I feel really fortunate that I have a very supportive family. And so I’m the youngest of five. And my parents have always been very supportive with me. Um, but it’s not, I feel like also, I don’t know if either of you, or people you’ve talked to have a similar experience, I think, because I was at the tail end of the children’s cycle that, like, they were much less strict. And I and I was also very, very good. Like, I was very well behaved. And also, like, all my, all my siblings were like, my parents. So I had, like, a lot of love, a lot of care, a lot of, you know, help and support. And so I think by that time, my father was a, you know, but my parents have always been very supportive of me. But, you know, they were always, I think like with a lot of immigrants, but also POC families are very practical, especially my father. You know, because it’s so ingrained in them, and also in the pursuit of, you know, quote, unquote, American dream. And also, like, the work ethic is incredible. From from them, those communities, especially both of my parents, but I, it’s funny, because I don’t think they would think of themselves as artists, I think they always thought there was a sort of weird. So my next eldest sister and myself were really into art, but they were kind of like, where’d you get this from, but my parents are, like, very creative, they would never consider it, but like, I learned it all from them, my mother was like an installation artist through the home, she every element in the home was very, very important that it like, she had a very amazing sense of design. And like, every season was a time to change the house and to change all the decorations, and to change the environment, and a very big gardener. And so the aesthetic, and sort of emotional impact of an environment comes from her. And my father was a super DIY person maker, you know, he’s the person that like, love to do home construction, like, we wanted a three car garage, I can make them myself, I’ll do it. And so he would, you know, he would like patch together bungee cords and like wood and like, figure out how to do it himself, and like rent a truck tractor and like, you know, all in flip flops, you know, like, he’s just like, hardcore, hardcore, you know, like, I’m Filipino work ethic and worked two jobs for years and years, and years, and years and years. And, you know, he worked really hard to trying to do it so that we didn’t have to, I never wanted for anything. I’m very, very lucky, very fortunate. And so yeah, I think, and when I was gonna go to art school, and I do graphic design as my, that was awesome in my undergraduate degree, so that’s sort of my day job. And so they’ve always been supportive. I think my dad and my mom was like, as long as you’re able to support yourself and your eating, then by doing that, then, you know, we support you and my mom is very into the drag part. Where in my family, not that my dad isn’t, but my mom is, you know, especially when I was starting, she’d be like, so what is it that you’re wearing? I don’t know if I like this looks very specific about what she like, it was very cute. And I realized, like, I’m very fortunate and I love them dearly. And I think, you know, especially in the communities I have many queer communities don’t have the support of their families, not because they go to art school but because of who they are, um, and so, you know, I considered myself really lucky in having a very, you know, happy childhood adulthood. And that my pursuit of these things was never an issue for them.

Jesse Lin 20:17
When you say speaking of different kinds of pressures when you joined, what’s like, once you start entering the drag world, did you feel unwelcome in any way because of your biracial background? Or were there any, like barriers to entry that you faced because you were a biracial individual?

Unknown Speaker 20:37
Um, no, I would not. I mean, no, I think because Brooklyn was brown. I mean, a lot of Brooklyn was brown, I mean, my best friends that were creating the scene were Mary Cherry, and you know, big black, amazing drag queen and Horrochata, you know, who were running, you know, running, making shows. Um, but I will say that when I was around, I felt like I was only one for years. Didn’t know, didn’t encounter other drag Asian drag queens in my, in shows for a very long time. So it was kind of like, oh, I’ll be like, the only Asian drag queen and more and more have come to Brooklyn and I feel like the sort of second wave of what we call the second wave of Brooklyn drag had a big influx of Asian artists so West Dakota, Emi Grate, Sookie Sterling, Queen Kirlia there’s more I know I’m missing a bunch but so they and then again these parties bubblT. And then there was one called oni gashi mas. And it wasn’t that great. Um, and so they so these really started to center more Asian artists, collectives, etc. But for a while it’s sort of the lone, lone Asian queen.

Angela Lin 22:09
I’d love to dig into that a little bit more because I don’t know Well, yeah, I’m so I’m more like coming from it from like, outside perspective. I’ve been to drag shows, but I’m not. It’s not like I’m not huge in the scene, versus like, Jesse’s watched every episode of drag race. Huge on drag. And so I don’t know how many people who aren’t as familiar with know that there is this Asian community within drag? Because I think you know, there are so many stereotypes of what, what Asian people do what scenes they are in or not in, and I don’t know how many people know that there’s like a growing sizable, like Asian drag community. So I’d love to learn more about like your experience within that and like, is it is it a lot of Asian Americans are there like Asians from Asia? Is it like what do they bring that’s a little different from what else you’re saying in the broader drag?

Untitled Queen 23:08
Oh, it’s a it’s a lovely mix. And I have to say, so Emi Grate. That’s my friend. She’s Burmese so she’s from Myanmar. And I don’t know when she immigrated here but she emigrated but I remember I think the first A+ that she had me and I it was stunning to me because maybe this was like I was maybe four years in to performing and we had a little basement we were all getting ready. Wayne Newton that’s another one – Drag King so I say drag artists because I’m talking about nonbinary drag queen drag king all of it – so it’s not just about drag queens for me but when I remember going there and we were all getting ready and just like you know we call it kiking hanging out talking um, I was like wow, I’ve never been in a room the drag room with more than one other Asian drag person artist that was about to perform I might be might have luckily maybe been with one other one but not not four or five of us and I was like really stunned really amazed it felt really beautiful and like and very diverse because you know we talked about the diaspora for Asia is huge and covering so many different languages so many different cultures and and so it’s pretty wide you know, so Sina is from China I believe so I’ll get it all fucked up and they’re gonna like hate me but but I would say was pretty diverse. Anyways then again I’m not always sure between like between like Asian America and oh Pearl Pearl Harbor is also is one other drag drag artists and I put She’s an immigrant drag artist. And they bring a lot of that into their work. I mean, it’s kind of impossible, you know, not to, you know, it’s we bring ourselves to our works, but I think, what is incredible, especially like, Emi Grate, you know, they would choose Asian singing songs, and we talk a lot about, you know, Pearl Harbor does incredible work with like, a lot of the props and things would be like suitcases, and, and like knee pads, and like, lots of like, various cultural references, like, between, like, Americanized westernized ideas of like glamour and beauty, and sort of the disconnect and dissonance, and that’s a subject I think, a lot of their work and they’re also a poet. So I feel like it’s pretty varied and exciting because it’s not really one monolithic. It’s not like this one group is just Chinese performers are or it’s just Filipinos or, or whatnot, and people have varying degrees of cultural experience as far as like, they maybe they grew up with a lot of Filipinos or, you know, they have that big community or if you’re, if they’re also biracial, I feel like a lot of a lot of ones that are also are also biracial, like white and Asian, etc. So yeah, it’s exciting and cool, but then also to be have some, some sort of corporate mainstream, you know, representation – Jujubee, Manila, Manila is like a big inspiration for me when I was first starting drag. She was a drag race clean on season two, three, and, you know, big Filipino Queen, and, you know, she’s the first runner up.

Jesse Lin 26:47
So maybe one thing cuz you you’ve done a lot of drag shows you’ve been in drag for a while, what’s something that you picked up during drag that you something that was unexpected that you learned or gained from through drag that you were like, I didn’t know that I was gonna come by this, this skill, or this insight or this knowledge,

Untitled Queen 27:07
Oh, my God, all all of it. I was petrified of ever being on a mic. I thought I could never entertain people, for sustained people and, or for sustained period of time. Never thought I mean, think that’s what was transformative about drag. For me, it’s why I encourage people if you have any interest in it, so just try it once. Because the thing about drag as an art form is that it tests it, it shows you that you can go beyond limits that your preconceived limits that you put on yourself. And that’s wonderful. And that’s why I’m saying it undoes all these preconceived things. So so for myself that really show and I also, what was, what’s exciting about it for me is that it opened up, like what I could do with it, I didn’t have to just like, put on some sort of sparkly dress, and just like, you know, do what everyone else was doing, I could do, I could put into it, what I thought was interesting, you know, some like, you know, sad 90 songs, and then like, you know, a poem from here or something from like, the dollar store, and then other narratives and like, I can really make it my own. That’s what was super exciting about it. For me, that’s what I think I realized that like, drag was a real, like I said, I almost call it like a combiner. Or like a, like a garbage can dumpster trap, where like, I could throw everything I wanted, that I was interested in, and then like light it on fire. And so it’s just like poof, so it’s really been a liberating medium for me and that way, but yeah, like we learn a lot about yourself, but limits, you know, you really think I could never do this. Like you can, you actually can really surprise yourself by, by what you can do. And by what you can challenge yourself. So I think and what’s exciting about drag is you can do it as many times as you want in many, many different ways as you want. And that’s really, really exciting.

Angela Lin 29:03
Well, I think that that kind of like free spirit and making do with what you have is a great kind of segue into our close, our Fortune Cookie. Yeah, that’s our closing section name because we always like to end on a sweet treat. So, we would love to ask you what advice you have for people who want to dabble in drag or other creative artistic forms given your experience.

Untitled Queen 29:32
Oh my gosh, so I’ve got lots of advice. Okay, number one. Number one is if you want to, don’t go to don’t pay for a graduate degree in a creative art. But otherwise, I mean, in the nice in the cool, like non institutional stuff that’s like, you know, I think focus on things that are fun. You know, like art should be fun and like i think you know, things about institutionalized learning especially like art, education, things are so hell bent on life sucking the life out of a lot of it. And that’s why I think nightlife is a real was a real space that opened it up for me because the difference between nightlife in the art world is not that different. There’s a lot of networking, a lot of art making. But the fun, that’s the difference, art world stuff is not fun, going to going to fucking openings, networking as they call it, they call it networking. Meeting with curators, they teach you to do an elevator pitch, all that kind of shit is so boring. It’s so stupid. It’s so and they also a lot of American art education really teaches you to do it. It’s a very solo endeavor. It’s never – and one lesson, I try to, you know, share with people’s that I had an amazing Professor Barry Rosenberg, in my undergraduate art history class was saying, you know, a lot of people will teach you how to make art, you know how to draw how to do this, but they never teach you who to to make it with. And that has really stuck with me because when I entered into graduate school, I had a community that’s why you know, the other students, but then when I entered nightlife, that was another one. Where, wow, we were making art together. And it wasn’t, you know, we’re still competitive, but it’s not like, you’re only taught to just, it’s only just about you, it has – that’s what I’m saying, it works because you’re in conversation with with other people. And the thing about drag, why, like I really, I love it, and why I encourage people to try it to and like kids that are starting it now. I say kids, you can be any age to do it. But I say kids, like if you’re young, young doing it, but I’m saying is to enjoy it. Because people like everywhere, you know, especially through mainstream culture, really try and treat drag as a business and it can be, but it’s really like, it’s fucking fun. Like, go out with your friends. And this is for anybody, not just drag, but like, if you’re making art, you’re in a creative, like, meet up with your friends go out, do things like really like, you know, spend time in each other’s houses, write stuff, do prompts together to like, workshops, do like, you know, do your makeup at your friend’s house, like those are the best memories I’ll ever have. And that kind of approach to it. You will. And I think a lot of people say this about things what they start when they start at the very beginning of these pursuits, because they’re not really thinking about all this ways about how is it going to make money, how’s it going to build my career, because it’s a kind of unthinking thing. And the thing about drag, that was a surprise, I didn’t think of it as I also just did not call it my art, I used to just be like, I’m just trying this thing. And then it was like, whoa, this is it. My art is everything that I’m doing, and whether it’s drag or not, like it’s just a part of my whole toolkit. So I really just encourage people to really find what you think is really fun. And really explore that and try not to just think about it in capitalist terms about making money or about your productivity. People are very, very obsessed, including myself to like, how much are you making? How much are you know, how much are you creating? How much are you doing this? And there’s a lot of that pressure that really devalues you know, puts value on things that are not important.

Jesse Lin 33:10
Thank you so much for for coming. We got it all. Would you like to talk to listeners where we can find you? And if you have any projects you want, you’re working on that you want to plug?

Untitled Queen 33:20
Oh my gosh, okay, um, like, How much time do we have? Um, you can find me as Untitled Queen on Instagram. And then also my website is also UntitledQueen.com. Um, right now, I have a show coming up. And I’m doing a performance for that. And it’s also about cultural ancestors, because we’re doing a performance about writing a new poem called Singing Telegram from a Siren that I’m premiering that night and it’s all about like, thinking about sirens, me imagining sirens as being our ancestors that like fought against colonial ships making them crash and die on the on the so called Philippines and the so called Puerto Rican shores. So I started this poem about a conversation between me – an apartment buzzer conversation between me and this like singing telegram from one of them.

Angela Lin 34:20
Will it be recorded? Will they be able to watch it?

Untitled Queen 34:23
Yes, I’ll be I’ll be sharing it. So I’m pre recording this performance and I’ll be able to share it so you can look out for that my Singing Telegram from the Siren will be available if you want to catch that.

Angela Lin 34:31
Yeah, perfect.

Untitled Queen 34:33
Thank you.

Angela Lin 34:34
Well, if you have questions for Untitled Queen or you have questions, comments, feedback on this episode, you can also write us in telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com – the YOU’RE is Y-O-U-R-E, we can connect you with Untitled or pass along at anything that you want. And reminder that we are still looking for listener stories submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want. And come back next week because we’ll have another fresh episode for you then.

Angela Lin 0:20
Today we have another cool guest that’s under our agents doing cool shit. We have a Lil Waterboi, what’s up?

Lil Waterboi 0:28
What’s good?

Jesse Lin 0:32
Why don’t you introduce yourself to our audience and let them know whatever you want to say about yourself, but also, where are you really from?

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Lil Waterboi 0:42
Um I’m Lil Waterboi. I’m really from Montreal but my parents are from Vietnam. So I’m a Montreal Canadian Vietnamese artist. I go by Lil Waterboi, I guess that’s it.

Angela Lin 0:58
So where where did Lil Waterboi come from the stage name.

Lil Waterboi 1:02
Um, Lil Waterboi came from the time like back in like high school. I was hoping like, I was being on the basketball team, but like, you know, like basketball super competitive. I’m not that tall. So like, I was the waterboy on the team. And like, I just carry that underdog mentality into everything I do.

Angela Lin 1:18
And is that underdog mentality? A lot of the like, recurring theme in some of your rap songs, or is it just part of how you carry yourself?

Lil Waterboi 1:29
Yes. And no, in the sense that like, I feel as though the underdog mentality is like a huge thing in hip hop in general. But like, yeah, like, I mean, there’s always an attitude and edge to everything I do. And I think that comes from the underdog mentality.

Angela Lin 2:25
So on social media you talk about yourself as more than just a rapper. So what do you what do you mean by that? What else what else are you?

Lil Waterboi 2:36
That like kind of like little bio on my ID came from like just having such a hard time marketing myself. Because I do so many creative things like I shoot videos. I do photography, graphic design, and I also started a company like Bahai Collective. Yeah, I’m always creative always doing something different. And I just didn’t want to separate all those things. I want it all to be like one persona, but it’s just someone who does a little bit of everything.

Angela Lin 3:04
Is your rap personality, though the like most prominent Is that why you have to kind of like reel, reel it back that that’s not all you are?

Lil Waterboi 3:13
Yeah, I’d say so. Like, I think my rap personality is just like, I guess it’s the most commercial and the most like, you know, the part of my name that’s the most out there. So like, I guess it’s what ties everything together.

Jesse Lin 3:26
As a rapper do you feel like there’s like an alter form of you that comes out when you’re rapping? Oh, artists are like I have this like Alter Ego person. And they’re like, completely different from who I am in real life.

Lil Waterboi 3:38
Yes, and no, I did. Like, wow you guys are hitting me with the good questions right away. But um, yeah, like, in a way, like I feel so this ties into like, just music in general, I wouldn’t say just rap. But like your persona it’s not necessarily your persona and how you decide to portray yourself, but it’s how people receive you online is so different. Because like I feel as though is a synthesized version, like a watered down version of yourself, where you focus mainly on the most attractive or like, whatever you’re trying to pitch to people because if you put too many ideas out there, like me, I did the whole not just rapper thing because I didn’t want to go too elaborate in it. But like, yeah, if you try to pitch too many ideas, you get lost in the sauce, but you focus on like one or two things. And then when people meet you they realize oh, okay, I thought all rappers were this way. So I guess a lot of people are surprised when they meet me. There’s a lot of layers that I didn’t see before.

Angela Lin 4:34
I’ll chime in there too. Yeah, based on your IG profile. I definitely expected a different persona. I guess then what we’re seeing now, I mean, you’re super chill. That’s, that’s the vibe I’m getting right now. Right? But I feel like with rap, I guess rap and hip hop. You always have to kind of put on like a really hard exterior, I guess and like..

Lil Waterboi 4:55
It’s it’s so tricky because like people told me that all the time. I’m I’m still confused because I feel so it’s still me. Like, this is something that a lot of athletes have too. And it’s like, you’re chill. Normally when you’re walk around, but on the court, you’re a savage. And it’s the same energy. When it comes to my art, I’m super serious, and whatever. But like when it comes to like, just hanging out chilling in real life, I’m pretty down to earth kind of guy.

Jesse Lin 5:19
And so what are the energies, the vibes that you’re putting out in the form of Lil Waterboi?

Lil Waterboi 5:24
Lil Waterboi I think a lot of it is like the whole underdog chip on my shoulder kind of thing. But like where that chip comes from? It comes from just like being underdog in basketball, but also like the Asian thing, you know, sometimes you wonder, like, you know, do people underestimate me because I’m Asian, and I feel so that’s a really recurring theme, especially where I’m from. I know you guys, it’s a little bit different because the Asian scene in California is really big. But the Asian scene in Montreal is almost non existent and like that’s why I kind of like started Bohai collective, which is like an Asian like music collective. So yeah, I hate being put into boxes. And when people try to put me into boxes, I break out of them. So it’s everything that people said, I can’t be kind of in one.

Angela Lin 6:06
And let’s let’s dig into the Asian aspect of being the underdog because I think that is something we don’t yeah, we don’t have first hand experience of like being not around a ton of other Asians and the part of Canada you’re in and from is not super Asian, because I think depending on where people have been like Vancouver’s like super Chinese, right? There’s like a lot of Asians there. So I guess it depends on what experience you will have a Canada but Canada’s huge number one and like Montreal, is very different. Because it’s super French Canadian, right. So like, what was? What was that like growing up there? And like, how did your family end up there? If that’s not a big asian kind of community?

Lil Waterboi 6:48
It isn’t a tiny one, but isn’t a big one. You know, that’s where Montreal is. There’s actually a lot of like, Vietnamese people who immigrated during the Vietnamese war, who came over to Montreal. My parents being some of them. I don’t know why they chose Montreal. I mean, they like I guess during a war time, you’re like, you’ll take whatever you get, right. So they’re here. Fast forward, me living growing up here. I think the thing is, like, there is enough Asians in Montreal that you don’t feel like oh, I’m the only Asian in town. But at the same time, there’s not enough that there’s a strong Asian community. So growing up, like I feel as though like most Asians in my circles, I think this is a common thing. But everyone kind of wants to be white. You know, everyone tried to fit in really, really hard. And that was my case, too. Like, I have like a Vietnamese name. I also have like a French name. And like, I would like transition to my French name. But then, after a couple years, a few years of high school like I kind of went back to using my Vietnamese name.

Angela Lin 7:47
Let’s celebrate these names.

Lil Waterboi 7:49
Um, yeah, so I My full name is Kwok Chwong Francois, Francois is like Frank in French, Trinh.

Angela Lin 7:58
Canada is like one thing on its own. And then like French Canada is like, it’s a microcosm. So I didn’t even think about that you would have a French name in your like, full name. Right? Interesting.

Lil Waterboi 8:10
Like, well, I mean, like, you know, Jesse and Angela are your names like, you know, like, people here they don’t they get French names? Because people speak French. Right. So yeah, but like, easily it can be translated, Frank. You know, I also go by Frank, which is funny, because whenever I used to apply for like, normal jobs, or I would go by Frank in my resume, just because I I think it would increase my chances and like, I think it did.

Angela Lin 8:33
So sounds pretty white. Yeah.

Jesse Lin 8:37
Sounds about white.

Angela Lin 8:41
Oh, that’s so interesting. And we talked about this off camera before but you are fluent in French as well. So you are trilingual?

Lil Waterboi 8:50
Trilingual, yes.

Jesse Lin 8:53
How does your French stack up against your Vietnamese?

Lil Waterboi 8:57
Um, so in order like, it’s funny, because I went to high school in French, but like, my teachers hated me, because I’m always speaking English for like, a good reason. Like, I don’t know why I would find the English kids and speak to them in English. I don’t know why. Cuz I don’t know. But yeah, so my French is pretty good. But I’d say my English is better. So it’s English than French. And then my Vietnamese I can speak Vietnamese, but like, people are like, you know, sometimes when I go to big cities, like I went to Vietnam, maybe like two summers ago, and I would go to a big city I start speaking in Vietnamese, they’re like, oh, you can speak in English here. Like, aw man. Like, I could speak it, but my accents pretty horrendous. Oh, this actually ties into something else like since crazy rich. I don’t know why. But I’ve been getting a lot of new Vietnamese fans. So I installed the Vietnamese keyboard on my phone. I’m starting to try to answer people in Vietnamese it’s very basic stuff like you know, it’d be like thank you. I hope you like my music in Vietnamese but yeah.

Angela Lin 10:00
That’s cool.

Jesse Lin 10:01
You’re gonna start somewhere.

Angela Lin 10:02
Yeah. And so tell us more though about your, like, the reason why you you rap and this hybrid kind of language because it’s not like from what I saw, it’s not like it’s a whole song in English or a whole song in Vietnamese, it’s like, kind of mix and match and like, where that vision come from, and what do you hope people take away from that?

Lil Waterboi 10:24
I think with a lot of music, things, the best things come from, like not thinking too much about it. And like, basically, me and Yenny Yuka, like, we kind of reached out to each other because we were like, yo, you’re one of the only other Viet rappers in the city, we should really do something. So we kind of bounced around a few ideas. Eventually, we went with do my my, which is of the Vietnamese translation for like, “Fuck your mom”, which is like, so dumb as a song name, but it’s just like something that every Viet kid knew, even if they don’t speak good Viet, which is a thing for a lot of Vietnamese people in North America, their Vietnamese is not good. So we just decided to go with that. And like, we just spoke it the way we kind of speak at home, like a lot of kids speak French and Vietnamese at home, or English, Vietnamese, or Viet-glish, as we call it. And it’s just like, we just went with it. And this yeah, it’s not like we tried purposely to fuse the two. Yeah.

Jesse Lin 11:17
Oh, my gosh, that’s so cool.

Angela Lin 11:19
That’s really cool.

Lil Waterboi 11:20
Yeah, I think it just makes him relatable. Like, you know, we knew who we were speaking to. We were speaking to other kids like us and like we all speak Viet-glish.

Angela Lin 11:29
I love it. That’s so funny, because we’ve only really heard like Chinglish but I guess every Asian must have a…

Lil Waterboi 11:35
Yeah, for sure.

Angela Lin 11:36
Whatever ish

Lil Waterboi 11:38
Like, in Montreal, they do Haitian slang a lot. Just because like there’s a lot of Haitian people here, but I say it all the time. Like I kind of want to make Viet words like randomly popular if I blow up, I want people to like non Vietnamese people that use the Vietnamese word.

Angela Lin 11:53
That’s so fun.

Jesse Lin 11:54
I was to say, aside from incorporating the language into your music, like Are there any other musical influences that you’re taking from more of an Asian background or Asian origin?

Lil Waterboi 12:04
Um, in terms of like, purely musical like instrumentation, like Du Ma May samples like, Vietnamese dan bau, it’s called dan bau music. Other than that, um, the intro, I sing in a style called, it’s called Cai Luong. And it’s basically like, a soap opera singing. And like, I sing that but with really dumb lyrics in Vietnamese. And like, I don’t know, like, it’s just a little nudge for like, people who are Vietnamese they can they find that funny.

Jesse Lin 12:33
And like these musical influences, where did you pick those up from? Are they just kind of like things that most Vietnamese kids would know? Or it’s something that you specifically learned elsewhere?

Lil Waterboi 12:44
Yeah, um, when we were writing the song, we just want it to be relatable, like, it’s really a Viet diaspora song. Uh diaspora, sorry I always say the word wrong. But it’s a it’s a song that it’s meant to relate to these kids. So we just thought of like, all the things that are most iconic in like, what our parents taught us, you know, and like dan bau music and Cai Luong are very popular in Vietnamese culture. So, yeah, we went with those.

Angela Lin 13:10
And alright, so let’s, let’s get more into your rap career. So how long have you been rapping?

Lil Waterboi 13:17
Um, I started off making beats maybe like four or five years ago. I’ve always been a creative person. But like, I guess I never really pursued anything that deeply because my parents are very, like Tiger parent kind of personalities. Yeah, my brother’s a prof at Harvard so he ruined it for all the siblings. But yeah, so what I was noticing when I was making beats is that I never saw Asian rappers that much like back then back then, especially when I was making beats at first, I really didn’t see a lot of Asian rappers and I was like, You know what, fuck it. I’m gonna do it. And that’s where I’m now.

Jesse Lin 13:53
Talk about the parents. Yeah, Tiger parents. And especially with your brother being Harvard, like how to have that how they take that when you’re like, I’m gonna do this.

Lil Waterboi 14:04
Um, yeah. How did I break the news to them? I did not I lied to them. So I was in college, I was in uni, I was studying computer science, like, I in a different life. I probably would have liked it. But I was so focused on making music. I did not go to school. I was like, barely passing by, like, literally, I would show up to the exam. And no one would like have ever seen me, you know? So, um, but at some point, I was just like, you know, fuck it. I’m gonna go to Toronto. I’m going to make beats because I had a few cool opportunities. And I told my parents I graduated.

Angela Lin 14:39
So they still don’t know?

Jesse Lin 14:40
That’s ballsy.

Lil Waterboi 14:41
No, no, I told my parents that I graduated, but at some point, like I think someone snitched on me. I don’t know who it is. One of my siblings, maybe a cousin. I don’t know. But my parents were like, we didn’t speak for like almost a year after that. But slowly we kind of are getting better. And I think now that I’m a little bit older, I can kind of see where they’re coming from and like, you know, the pressures that are put on them, and they kind of like, you know, reflected on us. But, um, yeah, like something that I think helped a lot with my parents acceptance of what I do is just like seeing my financial stability, like now that I’m like, more, okay they’re less strict about it, and less intense about it. And also, like seeing me in articles, for some reason, just does the job for them. They think it’s more legitimate because they saw me in some, like, some school, like, academic article or something.

Angela Lin 15:35
Have they heard your music? Or did they just know that you make music?

Lil Waterboi 15:39
I don’t know. Like, there’s this funny thing going on in like my IG that, like, a lot of my followers are following. And it’s just like, at some point, maybe like, last year, my dad sent me an email and it was like, Hey, are you Lil Waterboi? He sent me an article about me. Yeah. And, um, yeah, so every time like, my dad sends me emails, I post on Instagram, because I find that stuff hilarious. But like, that’s literally all we’ve ever talked about my music is, are you Lil Waterboi. And like, Hey, I found another article about you. And that’s about it. He never comment on my music. After he sent me that email. It’s like, hey, do you want tickets to my live show? He’s like, No, thank you. But good luck.

Jesse Lin 16:21
The email thing is cute, though. It is very cute. I feel like it’s a way of caring. Yeah.

Angela Lin 16:27
Yeah, I feel like Asian parents have like a really tough exterior. So those are his little like hints that he still cares. And he’s still like keeping tabs on you. Right? Even if he’s not going to be blatantly…

Lil Waterboi 16:38
All my siblings watch my stuff. I know. I know, all my stuff, but they never talk to me about it. So it’s, like, kind of awkward, to be honest.

Angela Lin 16:46
I wonder because I like especially because you rep Vietnamese and your songs like, I feel like if they heard it, they, you know, feel some kind of way about it. Because you’re repping your culture.

Lil Waterboi 16:59
At the same time I am screaming fuck your mom and Vietnamese. Not sure about that one. But no, I think like, I have other songs about like, you know, my Asian upbringing, or just like a like Asian culture in general, like that are coming out. So like maybe down the line, they will kind of relate to like, why it’s important that I’m doing what I’m doing. But yeah, we’ll see.

Angela Lin 17:22
Um, okay, so let’s talk about then the family you choose for yourself, which is like friends and community and sounds like through your collective that you started, you found that tell us more about that, how you started, why you started and like what’s going on with it.

Lil Waterboi 17:39
So Bahai collective kind of started from the need of like, it came from the need, like what I was observing how there are a lot of Asian artists but not a lot of them were performing. So Bahai collective started off as like an event kind of like business where Bahai means home in Tagalog, by the way, because the organization has Filipino origins. We were collabing with a Filipino University organization called Mufasa. It’s like the McGill. I don’t know if you guys know what McGill University is, but..

Jesse Lin 18:11
I do kinda

Lil Waterboi 18:12
..it’s like people say it’s the Canadian, Yale, or something. But yeah, so the Filipino organization of McGill and North American Asians association of McGill. They kind of had a collab event with me, because like, I had a lot of friends in both groups. And we just decided to do a benefit concert to raise money for typhoon Ompong relief. That’s a typhoon that hit the Philippines in 2018. Yeah, so from that concert, we decided to throw more because it was pretty successful. And yeah, like, we were just booking as many Asian acts as we could, because we didn’t really see them get those opportunities. So what we transitioned to is becoming a creative studio slash creative agency. And the way we pitch ourselves that we offer everything a label would to artists that are independent, without actually being a label, making them sign anything like, you know, everything’s on like a one project per project basis. And we’re just like, really helping artists, like, you know, get everything they need. Yeah. So through doing Bahai like, you know, I really connected with a lot of the people that I met along the way some people from those University clubs, some people who joined Bahai later on my producer JT on the beat, he’s not Asian, but he’s down for the cause. He’s been with us since the beginning. So like, you know, my family’s really like, you know, my music family, and I physically live with them too like, Bahai means home into dialogue. And like the way our business grew, we turned it like into a physical place. It’s a house. So yeah, so we live like I’m currently in the Bahai house and we have like a music studio one room I have my personal studio and like my closet over there, and we have like a whole graphic design, like kind of like lobby kind of space.

Angela Lin 19:53
That’s so cool.

Jesse Lin 19:54
That is really cool.

Angela Lin 19:57
You’re like Terrace House but Canadian Asian.

Jesse Lin 20:02
So as part of the collective have you have you seen or met any artists that have already added to your own artistry, you’re working with them, and you’re like, wow, this is like a really cool whatever it is that they’re doing, whether it’s like rap or other other kinds of things.

Lil Waterboi 20:18
I think, I guess that’s the driving force between, like our transition as a company, but also just like, our continued passion for this project is just we constantly meet people that we wouldn’t have met otherwise. And we, like you, people really underestimate the value of a network. It’s humongous. It’s like, there’s so many cool people, but if they never met each other, like, they wouldn’t have been able to influence and work with each other. And like, you know, creating network just allows all these people to work kind of towards a shared goal. Like I’m so happy for all the people I’ve met through Bahai. And honestly, like, I don’t think I can count them. They’re just so many. And I think that’s something that applies to people who either worked or volunteered at our events, or the artists like everyone always meets people like I met Ching through Bahai Ching is the artists on crazy rich. But yeah, there’s play like Lonestar and Golden Child two Montreal artists also met and had us all together at whatever events. So like, yeah, Bahai events is definitely a place for people to meet. And that’s something we’re proud of.

Angela Lin 21:20
So question because it sounds like you know, through your own efforts and Bahai, you guys are creating this community and like bringing people together that otherwise wouldn’t know each other or know more people within this, like Asian Canadian space. Previously, we spoke with an Asian American singer, AZRA. And she talked about how there aren’t many like Asian American artists, I guess she was saying that it’s not super collaborative right now in the Asian American musician, space, because it kind of feels more like, there’s only a limited amount of like, attention or whatever. So they have to kind of, like fight each other a little bit, although she’s trying to change that by being more collaborative, but that’s the sentiment she feels. Outside of your own efforts really, like you are actively trying to be super, you know, collaborative and like community driven, is that largely similar to how you’re seeing the Asian Canadian artist space?

Lil Waterboi 22:21
I think, um, I think something important is like to be the change you seek, you know, like, the reason I do this is because I feel as though there’s a lack of it, but at the same time, I feel as though like, once you put the energy in, you’ll get it back, you know, like, because we create this network for people, they appreciate it, and they give back to us. And like, you know, this benefits us all. So I think it’s really like, you know, it is a kind of like a one step at a time kind of thing. Like, yeah, it can improve, but like, I do have hope for the future because, like, you know, I think the results are already coming. So, also, I’m very confused. Because when I look at the, like Asian Americans scene, and I’m like, wow, I wish the Asian Canadian scene was more like that. Because like, you guys, like, I feel as though like, Yeah, sure. Um, if you do the relative comparison, where you compare Asian American artists to other American, like, white American artists are like, wow, the gap is so huge. But like, you know, at least Asian American artists, like they have a platform, you know, Asian Canadian artists when you say that, I think most people are like crickets. Like, there are some but like, you know, like, what I’m trying to get out is like, it really is hard to like, name them if you’re just a casual music fan. Whereas like, with Asian American artists, like 88rising, that’s kind of like getting a name for it. So there’s like, I guess independent Asian American artists are also building a name for themselves like Keshi, Audrey Nuna. Yeah, I feel as though there are people to look up to.

Angela Lin 23:52
We gotta expand our knowledge of Asian American artists

Lil Waterboi 23:56
If you guys want like, I can make you guys a playlist because I think

Jesse Lin 23:59
I would love that. Honestly, I have found a few new Asian artists since this this like since we start working our podcast and we had AZRA on it’s actually like, really interesting the breadth of material that people are working on. So I was like, listening to I think like, techno-house from somebody in Hong Kong and then kind of this like, folksy rock thing, manic pixie girl from the UK. So it’s been an interesting.

Lil Waterboi 24:31
Oh, yeah, in the UK that like, UK & Australia there’s a few like, you know, is it I’m gonna butcher her name, but it’s like beabadobee?

Jesse Lin 24:39
Yes. That’s the one, so good. I

Lil Waterboi 24:41
Oh, yeah, like she’s huge now. Yeah, she’s dope. You should check out Dane is another artists like kind of in that lane that I’d like a lot. She’s from Austrlia. Like, she’s really not that well known yet. But I think she’s amazing. Is there a word for Asian diaspora like but like the adjective to describe someone from the diaspora?

Angela Lin 25:02
I think we just keep saying like Asian blank.

Lil Waterboi 25:06
Yeah, right. But I think there’s something that ties us all together, whether Asian Australian, Asian, Canadian, Asian American, there’s like there should be a word for it.

Angela Lin 25:14
Yeah.

Lil Waterboi 25:15
in Vietnamese there is though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, um, shout out VietQ playlists but they kind of like took a popular Viet word and like, every time a Vietnamese person goes to Vietnam, they call it viet kieu and that just means like, overseas Vietnamese person.

Angela Lin 25:31
Oh, interesting.

Lil Waterboi 25:32
But like, yeah, I met someone like through doing music that they were trying to start the playlist called Viet que, but with the letter Q, and they just like kind of like made a playlist of like Vietnamese artists all overseas, and they kind of made group chats for us and all that and like, it’s just really, really dope. Yeah, kind of all relate on a lot of things, even though we’re from different parts of the world.

Jesse Lin 25:55
I have one final loaded question about music. How do you respond to people who say that Asians can’t rap?

Lil Waterboi 26:04
Um, this is a really tricky one. I think all questions are tricky, actually. Because I’m one of those people that like, I hate black and white answers. I’m not a black and white answer person. It’s a hard space to navigate for sure. I think the first thing when someone says that the first thing that I kind of think of is like, why are you pointing it out? specifically? Because a lot of times people are like, oh, Asians can’t rap, but they’re okay with white people rapping and that makes no sense or Latinos rapping. Or like, when I think about that, I think like, yeah, like, are you genuinely offended of like, the content of my rap music? Or are you more offended by the fact that you don’t think Asian people can, like, you know, can do cool stuff, or, like, you just have these weird racial biases against Asian people. But for the people who are genuinely, genuinely, like, I guess worried about the kind of like, appropriative aspect of it, I think it’s a really hard space to navigate. Like, I do think that there’s a fine line to tread between appropriating and appreciating. And that’s always the challenge that every, like non black artist has to tread doing hip hop music. But at the end of the day, like, what I do personally, is like, I am very conscientious of like, my imprint on society, or on the music culture. And like, you know, I try to keep myself grounded by being around like, good people, when it comes to these kind of things. And like, you know, always trying to do something positive, as opposed to negative, because like, yeah, there’s a lot of artists that I feel like, you know, on one hand, some people think that it’s like, oh, social justice warrior stuff, like, oh, no one can do anything anymore. But, and sometimes that’s a little bit true. But on the other hand, sometimes there are people who are genuinely disrespectful with the kind of music or kind of content that they create. So it’s a fine line to tread and there’s no black and white answer to it, you really have to, like navigate that on your own, but do put in the effort to navigate.

Angela Lin 27:57
I do appreciate that you are making it your own, though, like with these Vietnamese influences and stuff. That’s like making it into a new thing, right? That’s like taking inspiration from something as a base, but then you’re, you’re making an new product out of it. That’s not just stealing. Yeah, that’s something else.

Lil Waterboi 28:17
And yeah, that’s something that I think about a lot too, like, you know, I don’t want I didn’t want to come in and like start making music about like, you know, hardships that I didn’t have to go through, right, that wouldn’t make any sense. So I kind of wanted to make music that I would relate to, and hopefully other people who had similar situations to me would relate to.

Angela Lin 28:32
Alright, so I think we’ll move into our closing Fortune Cookie section and we talked about this a little bit before, but maybe you have a specific answer in mind is, let’s dream about pre COVID days. Like, we want to know what’s the most fun show that you played pre COVID.

Lil Waterboi 28:55
I opened for Manila Grey. That’s their like a Canadian rap duo when they came to Montreal. That was a pretty fun show. Because I think that was the first time I performed at a big non-Bahai. I think was like 500 people and like, people were like, going crazy. And cheering and I’m like, who are you? Who are you? You guys are like going crazy. I love y’all. But um, so that was one that was pretty cool. And like the first Bahai event ever. I think that just holds a special place in my heart, you know, just because like, you know, that’s where it started. Kind of.

Angela Lin 29:26
Yeah, you did that. That was your baby.

Lil Waterboi 29:29
Yeah

Jesse Lin 29:29
You did that indeed. Well, thank you for joining us. This was a really fun conversation.

Lil Waterboi 29:35
Thank you so much for having me. Like I definitely got to know a lot more about American stuff.

Jesse Lin 29:42
And for listeners, where can we find you? What are what are the new projects that you have coming out, new music you have coming out?

Lil Waterboi 29:53
So I dropped I just dropped the Crazy Rich video featuring Ching we’re two like Canadian Asian artists trying to make it. And yeah, you can find me as Lil Waterboi on Instagram. You can also find me on Spotify, any streaming platform that you want. And what I’m working on right now. It’s like, it’s funny because like, I did Du Ma May, Crazy Rich and I have a bunch of these singles lined up. And they’re all have kind of like, they kind of have like some kind of Asian background to it. And I’m trying to do this and like, reach out to the Asian diaspora this way. But my project that’s coming out after that is complete, like, 180 because it’s super personal. And it’s really just about my experience. It’s very emotional. And the sounds and style is really different. So like, I’m really excited to see how, like, people take that like 180. But yeah, stay tuned for that.

Angela Lin 30:54
All right. Well, if you have questions about this episode, the topic or Lil Waterboi, you can also email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the YOU’RE is Y-O-U-R-E, or if you’re also an artist and you want to connect you want to share your story write us in as well and we’ll we’ll see what we can do there.

Angela Lin 0:21
Today we’re getting drunk. Cheers. For those who can’t see us on camera, we just cheers to our respective drinks. Jesse, what are you drinking?

Jesse Lin 0:43
I am drinking plum wine because of my hard alcohol has been in my apartment for a few months now. And I’m pretty sure it’s undrinkable. So and it’s Tuesday, so I don’t want to die tomorrow. So I’m just drinking some plum wine.

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Angela Lin 1:01
Well you have it in a super fancy class though for people who can’t see it. Yeah, it’s in like a martini glass.

Jesse Lin 1:07
Yes. We fancy up in here.

Angela Lin 1:11
Meanwhile, I have a literal koozie in my hand with a beer. I’m drinking a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

Jesse Lin 1:20
Wait, is that what you call a beer? cooler holder? A koozie?

Angela Lin 1:25
It’s a koozie. Yeah the foam thing that you put a beer in?

Jesse Lin 1:29
Oh, this makes so much sense.

Angela Lin 1:33
Are people using the word koozie and you’re pretending like you, you know, but you don’t?

Jesse Lin 1:37
I mean, I knew was like beer adjacent. But I didn’t know exactly what it was. And it was like never important. So I never asked where it was.

Angela Lin 1:48
And I guess do you even drink beer that much? Because I’m like a big beer person -that’s why because if you’re if you’re not a big beer drinker, you wouldn’t like be using koozies.

Jesse Lin 1:58
I feel like I’ve gone through phases. Like I think out of college. I was really into beer because college and then like, like, a few years into working. I was like, I can’t drink anymore because I’m gonna die and not go to work. So then I started doing like, easy drinking at home, which means like wine.

Angela Lin 2:17
But that’s funny because I associate beer with easy drinking.

Jesse Lin 2:21
No.

Angela Lin 2:25
Oh, if you drank beer, you had to go balls to the wall.

Jesse Lin 2:30
Well, I mean, it’s like just so easy to drink. It’s like fizzy water. You just keep drinking and drinking and drinking is the same thing doesn’t happen to me with wine though. Because at a specific point, I just fall asleep.

Angela Lin 2:42
Wine does make you sleepy. Hmm. Yeah, that’s true. Maybe it’s a carbonation and beer that keeps you not sleepy because carbonation kind of like wakes me up.

Jesse Lin 2:53
Yeah.

Angela Lin 2:55
Yeah, but beer you can’t drink like that much. Because you get full.

Jesse Lin 3:01
Yeah. Well, that’s part of the reason why I like stopped drinking beer because I was like, I feel so bloated like all the time after drinking and it’s really not fun.

Angela Lin 3:53
Anyways, anyways, sorry all we just went on a tangent because we’re drinking now. Um, but let’s let’s get to why we’re drinking. Um, so one is just the fact that you know, we’ve covered a lot of topics that can be heavy, and like, you know, requires a lot of emotional capacity for for us. And we need to just sprinkle in some like light hearted shit in here. And so we decided to have an episode where we kind of mix heavy things and make it lighter. So we’re gonna play a drinking game with each other, where we are going to try to stump each other with whether the headlines that we share news headlines that we’re going to share our fake or real COVID headlines and to be transparent, we’re going to be drinking throughout the whole thing, but I think I guess we’ll just say the rules are if we guessed wrong on our respective thing we take like, what an extra long sip or…

Jesse Lin 5:08
Um sure.

Angela Lin 5:09
Yeah, clearly a loose game here. Do you want to go first or second?

Jesse Lin 5:16
I only will go first. Which one? Okay, guests at baby’s birthday party fined 11,000 pounds as 24 people crammed into flat.

Angela Lin 5:29
Wait, what? Wait, what does this have to do with COVID?

Jesse Lin 5:34
Cuz they’re fined for Oh, yeah.

Angela Lin 5:39
I thought you were saying like they found 11,000 pounds. Cuz I didn’t know what you were talking I was like pounds of what cocaine?

Jesse Lin 5:50
Let me repeat guests at baby’s birthday find 11,000 British pounds as 24 people crammed into flat.

Angela Lin 5:58
Imma say that’s a real.

Jesse Lin 6:01
Yes, that is real is specific. That’s true. very specific.

Angela Lin 6:06
Okay, but tell us a story tell us well,

Jesse Lin 6:09
there’s not really a lot to it. Basically, they just got they got caught for breaking like the restrictions on group gatherings in the UK. I got this from Metro UK by the way it was so it’s like, questionably real news source…

Angela Lin 6:24
Hey it’s not the Daily Mail.

Jesse Lin 6:27
It’s like Daily Mail adjacent. I think it’s the same company

I love Daily Mail.

Thank you, you keep us afloat with all the ads, they have so many ads. Okay. But anyways, they were just they were found in violation of the gathering restrictions. And this one I think is just so funny because it’s like, right in the middle of two really bad things. Like the whole gender reveal celebrating your baby like nonsense. Like, celebrate your baby, but like, don’t be crazy. Okay, so there’s that. And then there’s like the people who are just like not paying attention to any rules whatsoever. Also, like totally fine. Everyone breaks some rules, but like, come on out. 24 baby in a tiny London flat. Sorry. 24 people. Yes, they’re 24 babies and they were fined. No, 24 people in a tiny London flat for baby like, I mean, like, the baby is at risk. Come on.

Angela Lin 7:26
Okay, well, I’ll give you one. Let’s see what she think. I’m ready. Taiwan authorities revoke quarantine fine for man after discovering he was kidnapped.

Jesse Lin 7:42
Revoked quarantine fine after discovering he was kidnapped. I’m gonna say that this is true.

Angela Lin 7:52
It was true. You’re right. Okay, this shit is bizarro. So there was a guy who came in from a flight. I don’t know if he’s from Hong Kong or if he just flew from Hong Kong, but he came from Hong Kong in October. And he was quarantining on a friend’s house so the friend was not there it was his friend just let him quarantine there. And one night, late night, people broke into this guy’s house and kidnapped him because they are debt collectors and I guess the friend owed a bunch of money. So the debt collectors thought that this guy was his friend so they kidnapped him and I guess beat him up because they said he had injuries and then he made him pay the debts and then let go and then police found out that the guy left his house and then fine to him 3500 US dollars for leaving – for leaving quarantine during his you know because Taiwan has mandatory 14 day quarantine upon arrival. And so not only did he get beat up kidnapped, extorted for money, but that he gets fined for leaving the quarantine against his will. The silver lining is that once the local authorities passed on to like a higher you know, judicial power they were like, oh, actually, this guy was kidnapped. This is bullshit. They dismissed the fine, but it’s just like what bad luck does this guy have?

Jesse Lin 9:26
So like, what did he go back to Hong Kong? Like what happened to him?

Angela Lin 9:30
I don’t know what happened to him. It just says that the fine was dismissed and they’re looking into the kidnappers but like

Jesse Lin 9:38
What a saga.

Angela Lin 9:40
Okay, your turn.

Jesse Lin 9:42
Okay. Underground juggalo convention shut down for violating COVID-19 restrictions.

Angela Lin 9:49
True.

Jesse Lin 9:50
It’s false. I made that up. Aw drink girl. It does sound really true right?

Angela Lin 9:58
It sounds real enough.

Jesse Lin 9:59
You know what’s so funny is that as I was going through these headlines that I made up, I’m like, some of these might be real news

Angela Lin 10:07
I had to Google. Some of mine got debunked. I was like damn.

Jesse Lin 10:11
Oh, like the ones you made up? Were actually real news. Oh, my gosh.

Angela Lin 10:15
So be careful with my next one.

Jesse Lin 10:18
No juggalos please.

Angela Lin 10:21
Okay, my turn Moscow offering free ice cream as COVID-19 vaccine incentive.

Jesse Lin 10:32
Does this fit Putin’s MO? I’m gonna say this is false.

Angela Lin 10:38
This is true. It’s true.

Jesse Lin 10:44
I need to hear more.

Angela Lin 10:45
Yeah. Okay. So this is from the New York Post. And the article was like two paragraphs long. So there’s not a lot to it. But basically, I mean, the background, which is like useful information to know, is that generally Russians don’t want to take the vaccine. Because for good reason, they are suspicious of their government. So like, I didn’t know this, and actually, I think I read this somewhere else. But I’m like, when – because Russia was one of the first or was the first country right to develop the vaccine. And they were trying to like, rush it out before they even had like the finals, safety checks on things. And at the time, they were like, yeah, let’s get this out. And Putin was like, Imma till this is like, proven to be safe for because he’s like, 68. So yeah, he’s at the, you know, the brink. And so it’s like, I’m not gonna take it yet. Until it’s like, proven safe for my age range. And so, obviously, that in the population, it was like, um, if you’re not going to take it, why should I trust you, for me to take it? So basically, the story of this article is that people don’t want to take it, only 38% of Russians are confident about receiving the shot. So basically, no one wants to take the shot. And so it’s just one vaccination center, but there’s some center in a mall who is incentivizing people to come in to get the shot by giving free ice creal, this shit’s real. Yeah, it’s in a mall. That’s also like the funny, like, funnier imagining of the scenario.

Jesse Lin 12:29
Okay, like, but ice cream in Russia, like, is that like, do people like that? It’s freezing all time isn’t it?

Angela Lin 12:38
Yeah, right. Right now, it’s probably very cold. Yeah, and this was published two days ago. So yeah, it’s cold right now. How about our cocoa doing? Yeah, hot toddy.

Jesse Lin 12:51
Yeah, vodka, even vodka would be better, right?

Angela Lin 12:55
Yeah. Well, I know. And so it’s kind of bizarre. But also, the other interesting thing is so like the context of that no one wants to take it there. But juxtaposed against Putin’s goal of having 60% of Russia vaccinated in six months, I’m like, hmm, seems like it’s gonna be kind of hard if no one wants to take it.

Jesse Lin 13:17
I mean, it is Russia. He could literally just force everyone.

Angela Lin 13:22
I honestly was kind of surprised that they had a choice.

Jesse Lin 13:27
Yeah.

Angela Lin 13:28
Okay. All right.

Jesse Lin 13:31
Let’s see what I got for you. Pop pedophile Gary Glitter is one of the host of elderly prisons given COVID vaccine.

Angela Lin 13:43
Wait, what? Read it one more time.

Jesse Lin 13:47
Pop pedophile. Gary. Glitter is one of a host of elderly prisons given the COVID vaccine.

Angela Lin 13:54
Prisoners?

Jesse Lin 13:56
That’s what the headline said.

Angela Lin 13:57
Oh, you said prisons.

Jesse Lin 14:00
Prisoners, elderly prisoners. Am I drunk?

Angela Lin 14:04
Maybe? Yeah, you and I both don’t drink that much more. So probably. Um, true.

Jesse Lin 14:11
This is true.

Angela Lin 14:12
Okay, you have to drink. I guess correctly.

Jesse Lin 14:16
That was not a rule.

Angela Lin 14:18
I’m making it up now. I’ve been drinking up in between the questions.

Jesse Lin 14:25
Okay. So first of all, I don’t know who Gary Glitter is whatsoever.

Angela Lin 14:28
Great name though.

Jesse Lin 14:29
But apparently he is a pedophile and he is an elderly prisoner. That has been given the COVID vaccine before guards and victims and this was in the Daily Mail UK.

Angela Lin 14:41
The Daily Mail

Jesse Lin 14:43
Daily Mail UK girl. This is a hot contentious issue here too, about vaccinating prison populations before like general public.

Angela Lin 14:54
Okay, how about this? Frequent sex can lower chances of contracting the Coronavirus. That’s false.

Jesse Lin 15:04
It’s false. I was like that should like make your chances of having Coronavirus with more because you’re having sex with random people.

Angela Lin 15:15
Hey, whoa, it doesn’t say what the random okay could have been like with your partner.

Jesse Lin 15:20
Okay, well, I just revealed too much about.

Angela Lin 15:23
Yeah, clearly Jesus.

Jesse Lin 15:25
No, but also still doesn’t make sense. But sure.

Angela Lin 15:29
I mean, I don’t know, because people try to call people try to claim sex is like exercise. So I don’t know, you could have made a connection between like health and exercising, because people that are unhealthy are more likely to have more symptoms.

Jesse Lin 15:46
But I don’t think you I don’t think those are like, directly related.

Angela Lin 15:51
Yeah, well, here’s a PSA for because it’s wrong. But I looked up some stuff for some tips from Harvard health around having safe sex during COVID. They are just like myths, debunking myths. So like, the sex itself, like penetration like that is not able to give you COVID. And so just let’s just rule that out right there. But it’s because sex involves a lot more things and like, you’re just you’re just closer and more intimate with people. It’s like kissing and the droplets that can transfer COVID because it’s a you know, airborne, it’s a respiratory disease. So that’s the part that actually gets you potentially sick. But Harvard health did say, do still be intimate with your partner. Because I think there’s a challenge right now, right? Because people are like, you have to be safe. But then people are being like extra cautious or like you’re super isolated. So then you’re like, removing the mental health positive part of connecting with people. So basically, it was just saying, like, be safe. You can still have sex, especially if you’re with like a committed person and you’re like quarantined together. Like that’s not a reason to like suddenly be apart from each other. But like, don’t obviously have sex with someone who just tested positive two days. It was just like, be fucking smart. It said wait seven days after they’ve been symptom free. And at least I think similarly seven days fever free basically use common sense. But like still have sex and still be intimate and still have connection with people.That’s all.

Jesse Lin 17:36
Yes, that 100% mix makes sense. I love looking at these tips from some of these places because it’s like really, like a really weird thing to see from very prestigious institutions. Like I remember I think the CDC also had a list and like glory holes were on them. And I was like, this is the first time I’ve seen glory holes on the CDC website. Like ever.

Angela Lin 18:01
Didn’t, um, didn’t Cuomo have a PSA around sex or something? I saw something about New York about like, don’t have sex or something. And I was like?

Jesse Lin 18:17
Let’s be real people are still hooking up and having sex.

Angela Lin 18:20
Yeah for sure. Okay, next.

Jesse Lin 18:24
UK Coronavirus strain is doubling in the US every 10 days.

Angela Lin 18:30
I feel like you’re tricking me with like, it’s probably like every 20 days, not every 10 days or some bullshit like that. It’s true.

Jesse Lin 18:40
It is true. It is true. I will drink. It is doubling every 10 days in the US. This is a report on CNBC. And it was based off of modeling done by the CDC.

Angela Lin 18:57
Where are people really traveling that much still, how are we getting the UK strain?

Jesse Lin 19:03
Well, yeah, that’s it’s very it’s very unclear. But I guess since international travel was like, not actually shut off. People can still shuffle back.

Angela Lin 19:13
I mean, it is well, it is unless you’re national. So I guess it’s like if yeah, if someone was an American who was abroad, and then came back.

Jesse Lin 19:25
Or if you have a lot of people yeah, a lot of people going back and forth are dual nationality people.

Angela Lin 19:31
Okay, how about this? Dogs can be trained to detect COVID-19

Jesse Lin 19:38
True.

Angela Lin 19:38
Oh, you already read about that?

Jesse Lin 19:40
I’ve seen this before.

Angela Lin 19:42
It is true. Okay, so this was from CNN as well, but also a website called prevention.com.

Jesse Lin 19:50
Interesting.

Angela Lin 19:50
Oh, well, it’s mostly from CNN. But the prevention calm was that the Miami Heat have allowed a limited number of fans to come to their games, and the arena is patrolled by these dogs that can sniff out. Yeah, yeah, anyways. But the kind of, you know, the high level is that it’s promising, it’s good that like dogs can be trained to do this. Basically, the types of dogs that can be trained to do this are ones that already can sniff out illnesses. So I don’t know if everyone already knows, but dogs, some dogs are trained to be able to smell like colon cancer, malaria, Parkinson’s disease, like a lot of really, you know, serious things, they can actually sniff those out. So those are the dogs that are now in these studies in a lot of different places. But this article’s specifically about a study based in France and Lebanon, where they had about 180 patients, half of them were COVID positive half weren’t. And they use the sweat. They like isolated the sweat from each of the patients and how the dogs like sniff through them, and they consistently were able to identify the ones that were positive. So basically, it’s promising. It’s not like at all meant to replace COVID tests. But it’s they’re seeing it as like, complimentary, especially for opening up these more public spaces, like airports, and like the Miami Heat with like sports arenas and stuff, places where like people are gonna be gathering and like coming and going. So, you know, this is the future.

Jesse Lin 21:28
I mean, it’s use every tool you got, why not? Okay. COVID-19 vaccine causes HIV in some recipients.

Angela Lin 21:36
False.

Jesse Lin 21:37
This is false.

Angela Lin 21:38
Yeah, I feel like I would have heard about that. That sounds too big of a, like,

Jesse Lin 21:46
There were two, there were two related news stories. So one was that I think one of the like, canceled vaccine candidates was cancelled, because it caused people to be more susceptible to getting HIV. And there was another candidate that was being developed by a biotech firm in Australia. And they were using like, an engineered version of the HIV virus to deliver an immune response, like deliver the virus virus particles to create an immune response. And they stopped that one because because they were using the HIV like a edited version of HIV virus, it could cause people to accidentally test false positive for HIV. So they stopped they stopped developing on that one too, but there were a few that were like, adjacent news stories to this.

Angela Lin 22:37
I know what you’re saying. Yeah, cuz I did hear something about using like, something with HIV cure or not cures like HIV medicine or something as a base. I heard something about that as like.

Jesse Lin 22:50
Yes. There was another one where it was like a some kind of like anti anti anti viral that was originally developed for HIV. They were trying to use it as like experimental treatment. I don’t think it worked.

Angela Lin 23:03
While they were trying everything at some point. Yeah, still are. Okay, how about this, um Coronavirus will resemble the common cold?

Jesse Lin 23:18
Is this a headline?

Angela Lin 23:20
…scientists predict

Jesse Lin 23:34
Yes true.

Angela Lin 23:40
Could you tell was true only because I said “scientists predict”?

Jesse Lin 23:44
No. Well, it didn’t seem like a real headline because it was so short. I was like, is there like a conclusion to this headline?

Angela Lin 23:57
That’s what it was, “Coronavirus will resemble the common cold, scientists predict”

Jesse Lin 24:02
That comma scientists predicts make all the difference.

Angela Lin 24:07
Well that’s why cross it off initially because I wanted to trick you. I was like, I mean, the catchy part is the part before scientists predict

Jesse Lin 24:17
No but I have seen that where they’re saying well because the Coronavirus is related to other coronaviruses which cause the common cold.

Angela Lin 24:25
That’s right. Um, and yet this is from New York Times. It’s funny how I pulled all the legit sources. Sorry. Because I love Daily Mail constantly being served daily mail articles because my love of like serial killer things.

Jesse Lin 24:45
Oh, okay. I was like, why are you on Daily Mail?

Angela Lin 24:48
I’m never on Daily Mail. People are pushing me Daily Mail articles. Oh, okay. Anyways, um, yeah. It’s exactly what you said it’s very similar to the common colds from like a family of Corona viruses because I don’t – I think most people know by now but like this is not the Coronavirus, like Coronavirus is like a group of it’s like a type of virus and COVID is one of those anyways. And yeah the hope is that it will one day become endemic basically that it just like exists but it’s going to circulate at low levels and will not cause serious illness that’s the hope and apparently, if we just like never had vaccinations it would take a couple years to up to decades for it to become endemic but luckily because we have vaccinations coming out the hope is that you know, it it will speed it up and they say which is I don’t think it’s gonna happen but they say that the an efficient vaccination rollout which is not what happening right now, but could shorten the timeframe to a year or even six months for it to become endemic. So that’s like best case scenario.

Jesse Lin 24:57
Okay, it’s my turn. Yeah, my turn.

Angela Lin 26:14
Okay, look at that martini glass pose.

Jesse Lin 26:18
I am thinking it through Okay. Why people three times more likely to be vaccinated than mixed race people

Angela Lin 26:27
I’m gonna say false because I don’t think headlines say white people.

Jesse Lin 26:34
It’s true.

Angela Lin 26:36
Yeah, outlet this?

Jesse Lin 26:38
Well, it’s, it’s on it’s on Metro UK.

Angela Lin 26:44
You pulled all your articles from there?

Jesse Lin 26:46
Yes. I was like, Where can I do like a one stop shop for like, trash news that’s written in a way that seems that could be false, but it’s most likely true. Obviously, this is all like UK people. But new figures show that white people are three times more likely to have had a Coronavirus vaccine that mixed race people in England and 1.5 times more likely than Asian people.

Angela Lin 27:13
I mean, that makes sense to me. I guess I was just thrown off by the fact that they call them white people. Oh my god. Like whenever we talk and I say white people I feel a little like…

Jesse Lin 27:30
I shouldn’t say that about them.

Angela Lin 27:32
So funny. Okay, well, should we move into fortune cookie?

Jesse Lin 27:38
Yes.

Angela Lin 27:40
You can take us in

Jesse Lin 27:41
Welcome listeners to the Fortune Cookie section, the closing section of our podcast. I am almost at the bottom of my martini glass. So we’re having a good time. There’s nothing here. Oh my gosh. Oh my god,

Angela Lin 28:06
Too drunk to scroll down to our fucking Google Doc.

Jesse Lin 28:08
I’m sorry. I’m looking at the wrong thing. She’s looking at the wrong part of the outline. Okay, so to complement our drinking, during this episode, we’re gonna each disclose what our favorite hangover foods is. And I will go first because I am already talking.

Angela Lin 28:26
I think we should drink more often.

Jesse Lin 28:32
Yeah. This is really fun. What’s my favorite hangover food? Yeah, I’m gonna say french toast. I really like french toast. Yeah.

Angela Lin 28:43
But where are you getting french toast? Oh, hangover. So So morning, morning. Well, sometimes there’s like Sorry, I was confusing drunk food. And hangover food.

Jesse Lin 28:55
Oh, got it. No, no, I like to do like brunch at the no. I like to do french toast at brunch the next day. I was gonna say I like to do brunch at the brunch the next day because I forgot french toast

Angela Lin 29:12
You have a spot to don’t you?

Jesse Lin 29:14
They usually go to. Um, yeah, I mean, like, I won’t go there now because it’s so. So cold. And just like outdoorsy thing. It’s like not great there. But there are a few places in the neighborhood that I like to visit. What about you?

Angela Lin 29:29
Um, so I don’t do this anymore, because I don’t drink enough to get real hangovers. But this was a pro tip. When I was in business school. It did me well, every time and part of me wishes I could be as big of a degenerate again as that so that I could repeat this routine that I did. So when I was in business school, it was Chicago. I was in Chicago. Not a lot of Asians there, right. But there was a very legit Chinese restaurant that was like, a couple blocks away from my apartment. And what I would do before so like we had, you know, it was business school is just like college point oh, so we have like, you know, dances and like other formals just like high school and college. So when we would have one of these like big events, I knew I’d be fucking wasted. So I go to the Chinese restaurant earlier in the day, and I’d order a combo fried rice, which was always too big because it’s a Chinese restaurant. So it was like, a big enough portion for like two people or two meals for one person. So I’d get that. And then I’d stop by Mariano’s, which is the supermarket chain there. And I’d pick up two giant Gatorades. I’d take those home, and I would put the Gatorades it’s in the fridge and also the fried rice. But when I’d come home wasted, I would drink a full Gatorade and eatt half of the fried rice and then go to sleep. And the next morning I would wake up kind of groggy, but not like dead. And I would drink the other Gatorade and eat the rest of the fried rice and then I was functioning. Okay, which is the best you can hope for when you’re like when you were super super wasted.

Jesse Lin 31:25
I have no idea how that is like, how that even works. A the if that’s good for you? No, no, like, I don’t understand how that works. Not that like it doesn’t work.

Angela Lin 31:36
Let me break it down for you as the drunk, drunk person,

Jesse Lin 31:41
CEO of drunk.

Angela Lin 31:43
Rationalizing my decisions. The Gatorade is electrolytes, you’re dehydrated, that’s a big reason why you get hangovers is when you’re dehydrated. So it’s first of all, like a shit ton of liquid that I’m forcing myself to drink but Gatorade has electrolytes in it. So it’s like refueling you with the right kinds of things you need to be re hydrated as you’re sipping your last drops of your martini glass. And then you also need carbs to soak up the alcohol because another reason you like throw up and like feel awful nauseous and stuff is when you have like an empty stomach and the alcohol is just like swishing around in there. So the carbs soak it up. So then I like do half the work the night before so that I’m not like letting it percolate in there. And then the next morning, I finished it off at the same regimen and then it’s just great.

Jesse Lin 32:32
I guess that makes sense. I mean, if you saying, if you’re reporting it works.

Angela Lin 32:37
Oh, it works every time.

Jesse Lin 32:39
Okay, well, then I’ll have to try that sometime. But like probably not for like a year.

Angela Lin 32:44
Yeah, I mean, when are we going to go out again, so anyways.

Jesse Lin 32:47
Probably soon please?

Angela Lin 32:51
Well, hopefully you can take our tips for the future when we are allowed to go out and have fun again.

Jesse Lin 32:59
Please.

Angela Lin 33:01
Um, write us in with your either your favorite ridiculous COVID headline that you’ve seen during this time. Or your favorite drunk slash hangover food that you want to share with everyone and reminder that we are still looking for listener story submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want at tellus whereyourefrom@gmail.com the YOU’RE is y-o-u-r-e.

Jesse Lin 33:29
And as always, join us next week for a more sober episode.

Angela Lin 0:19
Today we have a special guest, Sophia Bailey, the founder of the More Than Yellow blog, Sophia, hey, welcome.

Sophia 0:28
Hi, thanks for having me.

Angela Lin 0:30
Of course. Feel free to introduce yourself however you want. And also lump in your answer to our signature intro question, “but where are you really from?”

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Sophia 0:44
So my name is Sophia. I’m currently living in the San Francisco Bay Area for about six years now. I am the founder of More Than Yellow, which is a community dedicated to inspiring, empowering and amplifying Asian American voices. And to answer your question of where I’m really from, I was born in Iowa in the Midwest, but I always, you know, answer that with I’m Chinese American.

Angela Lin 1:10
So tell us a little bit more about how you got started with the blog and like what inspired you to to create that kind of community.

Jesse Lin 1:19
I, like I said, grew up in the Midwest, there was not a lot of faces that looked like mine. And I feel like really at the time, like, even with media, too, there was not a lot of representation, anyone that I could relate to. So at a young age, I’ve always felt like ostracized, you know, from my classmates, and just even looking around in my town. And I, you know, dealt with a lot of, like microaggressions and racism as I got older, living in such a small town that wasn’t diverse. So what really drove me to do this blog was just right now we have so much technology, and social media is such a powerful tool. It really helps you connect with people that you otherwise wouldn’t have. So I just really wanted to be kind of a voice. And just an inspiration to someone out there that you know, is facing these similar challenges that I had, whether it’s like cultural stigmas, or racism, you know, complicated family dynamics, because we know how complicated that could be in the Asian community. I just really wanted to help someone out there by creating this community.

And when did you actually start the vlog and was there like a moment where you were like I need to act like I need to do this, like an experience or something or was just something that you were thinking about doing for a while.

Sophia 3:23
So I actually thought about doing this for a couple years now. But it wasn’t until October of 2020, where actually I finally just, you know, sat down and said, okay, I’m gonna do this. And really the reason why was because I feel like it was just that perfect time. Racism because of COVID has really been affecting the Asian American community. And I feel like that is just something that needs to be addressed more. And along with that. Just having more free time, because of the pandemic, I was able to really just sit down and finally, you know, launch this blog in this community. And then the third driving factor was actually my therapist. So I struggled with anxiety for a while now, I didn’t know what it was when I was younger, of course, but it wasn’t until this pandemic, which really just made me realize that I you know, have mental health issues that I do need to address and that it’s okay that, you know, I need to seek professional help. So I started going to seeing a therapist, and my therapist asked me, you know, because I told her how I wanted to be more involved in the community and like ways to just make the world a better place, essentially. And she really helped me drive this force for me to start doing this.

Angela Lin 4:39
Let’s uh, let’s bookmark the things happening right now because I think there’s a lot we can talk about. Yeah. But I do want to circle back since you’ve mentioned it now a few times just the the childhood that you had and like the way the environment you were raised in because I think Jesse and I have talked about our experiences growing up or like we grew up on the west coast and now you live here. So you also see, you know, it’s it’s more diverse, certainly than what it’s like you were around when you’re growing up. So like, the racism that we have experienced is like more than microaggression-ey type, you know, realm. But it sounds like yours was like a different extreme. And I’m just curious what like, what was that experience like being one of the only I guess I don’t know how many Asians or were in your communities sounds like a small town?

Sophia 5:28
Yeah, it was a pretty small town. It was literally like me, and maybe three or four other families in the whole city. I guess growing up, I always knew I was a little bit different. No one had to point it out to me. So my dad actually grew up in Taiwan. My mom she, yeah. And my mom, she grew up in South Korea, but our blood is Chinese. Yeah. So when my, my mom’s family immigrated to the US, they came to Iowa, because they had a family member that sponsored them to go there. So that’s kind of how they landed there. And then, like me growing up, like, I always knew I was different. And it wasn’t until you know, like starting school and having kids say things or, you know, joke around saying like, oh, your parents own a Chinese restaurant? Do you guys serve dog and cat? And, you know, I didn’t know how to answer that, you know, I was just like, no, we don’t, like, we serve food, just like, you know, regular food duty. But just, you know, different flavors. But, you know, it definitely grew and became worse as I grew older. And, you know, people would like pull back their eyelids and say, oh, ching, chang chong, and all of those things. And I didn’t hear slurs until I got older, especially when I was in high school and college. And that’s when it became really bad for me. And when I really knew like, you know, racism is an issue that affects, you know, a lot of people and in different regions of, you know, the, not only the US, but the world as well. And yeah, like lots of experiences there with being called a chink. And not feeling like I was strong enough to say anything, or stand up and fight back for myself, just because I didn’t have a lot of people around me that would understand my story. And that would be an ally to me, as well. So there was a point in my time where when I was in college, I was afraid to go out because it was becoming like, every weekend where someone would say something to me, or making a racist joke, or, you know, whatever so it really affected me. But I did also want to like, share that my parents did face racism themselves as well, especially owning the Chinese restaurant. I never really talked about it with my parents. But I remember one time I did, you know, mentioned to my mom that this is something that I was facing. And then my mom shared with me that she had a racist experience working in the restaurant, and how this white man came in and ordered something, my mom actually got the order wrong, because they were super busy and swamped. And then when she brought out the wrong order, he just started yelling at her calling her slurs, telling her to go back to China, and that Chinese people are stupid and learn English and this and that. And then he just started like going on and on. And my mom just didn’t know what to say, you know? And she was just like, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Like, no, like, here’s your order. And like, we’ll get it right for you. And that always stuck with me, you know, because I feel like sometimes when we’re facing these struggles, like we don’t really take into account like our parents face the same things as well. Yeah. So coming here and how I landed in the Bay Area was almost like a reverse culture shock. Because when I came here, I was like, wow, everyone looks like me, like I don’t stand out here I blend in for once in my life. So my experiences there have all like really helped shaped me to be who I am, and having empathy for others that are going through the same thing.

Jesse Lin 9:06
So I wanted to ask because a huge part of us during this podcast is like resolving our Asian identities. And I kind of feel like we came at it from a place where we’re like, we feel solidly American, but your experience as like, an American person is pretty traumatizing. So like, how are you? Like, are you resolving both of these at the same time? Like, do you feel American being that you were so ostracized, even as a person who grew up here?

Sophia 9:32
Yeah, I always struggled with that. It was always this balance of like, I want it to fit in and be enough for each side or each party. Growing up, you know, I’m not proud to say but I feel like I really did whitewash myself because I was ashamed of being who I was. I wanted to fit in I wanted to sit with the popular kids. I wanted everyone to love me and you know, not see me as oh, she’s the Chinese girl. So I would you know, unfortunately, would whitewash myself, I would bleach my hair and try to tan my skin all the time, because that’s what my friends would do, they’d go to the tanning salon, and just anything I could do, you know, to try to distance myself further from being Chinese. And that turning point for me, when I realized that I should stop doing that, and just embracing my culture wasn’t until I was in college, when I started facing more of that racism, and actually meeting more friends. In college, it was a little more diverse there for me. So meeting just other Asian friends and hearing that they’ve gone through similar things. And that, you know, they invited me to parties, they call them Asian parties, because there was lots of Asian people there. And that was my first time ever being surrounded with so many faces that, you know, looks like mine. And that’s when I really started to think like, why am I trying to, you know, whitewash myself? Why am I so ashamed of who I am, like, I should be proud. Just like my parents said, I should be fiercely Chinese, you know. So that’s the turning point for me, when I started standing up more when I started just being more comfortable with who I am. And, you know, learning my language again, because when I was younger, I was like, I just want to learn English. That’s what everyone else speaks at school, you know, I don’t need to learn Mandarin. That’s not important. I really wish I would have learned Mandarin, you know. And I feel like just anything I can do now to just really embrace that side, is really important to me, because it’s never too late to embrace your culture.

Jesse Lin 11:26
We wanted to talk about like, given that you have this community that you’re running, and you cover a lot of different topics within this space. What do you feel like is the most pressing issue that that our community is facing right now? Is it just the bringing awareness about like, you know, the subtle, subtle racism and how that is, you know, translated and embedded in the way people have acted towards us for forever, up until now? Or do you think there’s a specific issue? I have my own opinion about that, given just the latest news cycle, but I’m curious what your thoughts are.

Sophia 12:10
So I think with a lot of these attacks that have been happening, because of COVID. And Asian people are getting blamed for that, no matter where we’re from, what we look like, doesn’t matter to them. We’re getting attacked just because of how we look. And recently, there’s been like a huge surge in elderly attacks. Like the one in San Francisco, where the Thai grandfather passed away. The few in Oakland, where people, elderly people are getting pushed out. It’s super heartbreaking to see and it’s frustrating, because I feel like, this isn’t anything new. Racism has been around for a while. But I feel like Asian racism specifically isn’t something that, like there isn’t enough light shed on it. No one’s really talking about it as much as they should be. And, again, I feel like it is because of the language barrier. Just kind of our culture of just keep your head down, just, you know, continue to just work hard focus on yourself, like, you don’t need to, like make a scene or anything. I feel like that is something that we need to overcome as a community as well. We shouldn’t continue to sit here and take it and you know, be afraid of speaking up. Our feelings are valid of everything, all the pain and struggles that are happening right now.

Jesse Lin 13:39
I feel like because Jesse and I talked about the anti Asian racism right when it started. That was when we covered it on our podcast. And we said this them, but I think it’s ever like it’s even more obvious now. Because of the most recent incidents with the elderly getting attacked. It’s just like, there’s this maybe it is a recognition that like young people within the community like us, we are starting to get louder, and we are starting to stand up for ourselves and like make it known that it’s not okay to treat us like this. And so where there’s still frustration left and people who want to emit those kinds of feelings, they’re going after the easy targets of these older generations that aren’t used to fending having to stand up and like fight for themselves and like frankly fought enough, you know, like to just like make life happen for themselves in this country. So they thought they earned their place in like a peaceful environment. And then now they’re just being like senselessly attacked because attackers know that like they’re unlikely to fight back. They maybe there’s still a language barrier and they won’t know how to like report to the police. And it’s it’s like easier than trying to pick a fight with someone like us, we’re younger, and we’re gonna fight back and we’re gonna rally behind what, whatever just happened, you know, to us. So it’s really frustrating for me to see that was definitely what I was gonna bring in was just all the elderly cases going on right now. Like, yeah

I’m curious as you’re someone who grew up in the Midwest, like those people who are throwing microaggressions, or slurs at you, like, where do you think that’s coming from? And why do you think it has persisted? Because I feel like there were there was a while honestly, where I personally lived in this, I guess you could call it a bubble, where like, I kind of felt like I was invisible because of my race. And because of that, like, I can kind of like slip in and out, like wherever I want, people aren’t really paying attention. But that kind of bubble has, like, disappeared, with all this news and realization of what’s happening, like attacks on Asian people. So I’m curious as to like, where you think, if you have an opinion, where you’ve seen like, where this kind of deep seated hatred or racism or like leftover grossness is coming from.

Sophia 16:12
It’s taught, you know, kids aren’t born, knowing race and knowing, you know, stereotypes and racism, and all of these things. So I feel like it’s definitely been taught, whether it’s by their family or hearing it on playground from other friends. It’s definitely something that’s been taught, and I feel like I don’t want to get like super like political and everything here, either. But like, for president with Trump as well, I feel like he just really heightened it and gave a lot of these, like, not only white supremacists, but people that have racist ideals in general, like a platform by calling this China virus and Wu Han virus and kung flu and all of these things, I feel like really heightened a lot of these attacks on our Asian community.

Jesse Lin 16:58
Yeah, that’s something that’s really frustrated me about this time is, I think every politician Trump and others need to think about, like the platform that they have, and the way that their audience is going to interpret what they’re saying, because I personally don’t think Trump really had any, like, let’s go attack all the Chinese people intent when he calls it those things. I think he’s trying to make a show of force against China, because he has this whole, you know, beef with China. And he just wants to like, release blame from himself, right? But he’s not trying to actually incite racist attacks towards Chinese people. However, he’s being irresponsible and calling it those things, because his base will take liberties to interpret that the way they want to. And unfortunately, the way that it’s been interpreted very frequently is like, oh, this is a Chinese people or Asian people more broadly. thing, and like, it’s their fault. And I’m not even gonna associate it with China, the country where this virus came from, I’m just gonna associate it with anyone who like looks Asian, because I’ve been given this liberty based on the way that it’s being spoken about to the masses. So that’s been really frustrating oo me it’s just like, no one’s really thinking about the implications of the way that other people are going to take their words, even if their initial intent isn’t necessarily wasn’t meant to be that way.

Sophia 18:32
Yeah, I think it’s all scapegoating. You know, it’s easy to just blame everything that’s happening in the world right now, to Chinese people. But more broadly, as you were saying, any person that looks Asian, and it’s frustrating, because, you know, I’m missing my family, I miss going out and seeing my friends I miss, you know, traveling all of those things, too. Like, we all want the same thing we all want, you know, the country to really come together again, sorry, I’m getting emotional. I just feel like it’s so frustrating to continue having to prove ourselves, continue having to prove that, you know, we are people, we are Americans, like I’m an American, you’re an American, we all want the same thing. We’re all on the same side, like stop attacking us stop scapegoating us,

Angela Lin 19:18
You mentioned previously, like what we have to do now to make progress towards the situation, making it better. And I do think it’s something that we should talk about, because we’re stuck in this predicament, or, you know, these types of attacks. And these types of sentiments keep becoming more and more prevalent, and what is it that we can do to do something about it right, or what needs to change? And I feel like, from my perspective, it’s a couple of things. One is I think you mentioned already is like the Asian community has to rally together now. And I’m on clubhouse. I don’t really love it that much, but there’s this whole anyways, yesterday Daniel Dae Kim and Daniel Wu had a talk where they tried to like band together around the stuff happening with the elderly, essentially. And like, what can we do with it? And I feel like one of the key takeaways they mentioned, too, was just like, you know, these attacks are happening, like you said, regardless of if you’re, actually Chinese, you can be Korean, you can be Filipino. They don’t care, because they’re just like, you’re just all Asian, you’re one thing. But traditionally, our communities have not seen ourselves necessarily as one community, especially when you go beyond our young generation, like the elderly certainly are not like I’m, if I’m Vietnamese, I don’t really think I’m the same as like a Korean, you know, Grandma, you know, it’s not, there’s no tie there. And this is a time where we do have to band together, because if they’re going to see us as one thing and attack us, you know, universally as one thing that we need to all come together as one strong movement to dispel this type of hatred. So that was definitely one big takeaway that I like resonates really strongly with me. The other thing that I think is like, very sticky and I’m curious what your thoughts are on this is just like, it’s not just white people, it’s other minorities that are saying awful things and committing some of these attacks. And I think another layer of like banding together of communities that needs to happen is broadly amongst the like POC, BIPOC, whatever you want to call it, like the, the non white people, like we all need to start coming together. Because if you’re not white, you’re all in a different category. Yeah, I think the model minority really, like hurts us to where we’re trying to, like, create caste systems within the rejected group. But like, instead of doing that, we need to just all realize like, hey, there is no like rank order amongst rejected, like, we are all not the, you know, majority society. So like, what are we going to do to make us all stronger, instead of like, taking out the outrage against not being accepted by other people by hurting each other instead? Like, when are we going to, When is that going to happen when we’re like, all actually coming together, and not taking it out on each other, that’s just, it’s been very frustrating for me to see that it’s, you know, a lot of other minorities, too, that are committing a lot of these things against our community.

Sophia 22:26
That’s a really important point. It’s almost as if people feel like they need to pick sides or teams, you know, it shouldn’t be like you versus me, it should be us against the system that hurts all people of color, you know, and I feel like, this is the time where a lot of pain, a lot of struggles, like we’re feeling a lot of fear as well. And when that happens, I feel like we divide and we aren’t thinking in a larger picture of, we’re all experiencing, you know, maybe struggles that aren’t the same, necessarily, but the struggles that we do face should give us empathy to continue fighting for, you know, justice and equality for others as well. I think that’s just something that has been really frustrating for me, as well as to see everyone just starting to blame. And, you know, seeing the race of these attackers, and people are just going, you know, on, like a comedy like hate spree, basically, and just spewing out racist stereotypes, and generalizing a whole community, based on this one terrible person that attacked the elderly, or whatever the situation is, you know, there’s been a lot of racial tension, especially between the Asian and black community. There’s been so much history behind that as well. Like, we need to realize that, for us to all move on together, like we have to come together. We can’t fight hate with hate, we can’t continue to divide. In the end, it doesn’t help anyone, you know.

Jesse Lin 23:54
Yeah, you, you can feel anger, you can feel sadness, you can be upset. You can be all the things that you should be from seeing news like that, right, like, but I think it’s really important to separate those emotions from blame. Because that’s when we start moving down that sticky road that you guys are both talking about, where instead of using this as a way to bring our communities together and say like, how do we fix this? How do we improve? We’re just casting shade against other people blaming them for other problems, and I don’t think that’s a conducive use of anyone’s time.

Angela Lin 24:29
One thing that was frustrating to me listening on the Daniel Dae Kim Daniel Wu talk yesterday, it was like, kind of similar to us right now. Right? We have a lot of anger and you know, frustration around what’s happening. And there’s certainly there’s this discussion of like, we as an Asian community, we as broader people of color communities we have to come together. But I guess something that was like missing and I ended up dropping out of that call because I was like, man, I was going nowhere is like what is the tangible next step that can be done specifically, I guess the issue was around the elderly, you know, attacks that are happening. But like, I guess we could speak broadly to is just like, besides this, like, general idea of like coming together, what does that mean I guess? You know, what, what can we be doing to actually make that happen? It’s an open question. I mean, I don’t know that I clearly have the answer, either. It’s just like a frustrating point to me that it was hard to find, like a tangible next up from their conversation. So.

Sophia 25:31
Yeah, I agree. And I don’t think it’s going to happen right away, either, you know, I feel like this is going to take time. We’re also just processing it, you know, and just, it’s been very emotional. And I think once we are, you know, at the end of this processing time, like, we can start to have more rationale, as far as what to actually do next. Like you said, like, there needs to be tangible steps, we can’t just say, let’s come together, Kumbaya, call it a day, and everything’s gonna go away. I wish, you know, the world is like that, but it’s not. And I think just raising awareness is highly important. A lot of my friends who are non Asian didn’t even realize that these attacks are happening, because the mainstream media isn’t covering it. And I feel like that’s just so important for us to keep doing is just shedding light on these attacks, and on what’s happening with the Asian community, and just really, you know, making our voices louder.

Angela Lin 26:27
Now, that’s a really good point. Because I feel like especially in pandemic life, right like before this, so those that are listening, we’re recording this on Super Bowl Sunday, and like, we didn’t know it was the Super Bowl today. But during pandemic times, you really can, like, become very involved in your own little like bubble of news that you choose to opt into, right, because we don’t have the other social circles that we’re usually exposed to when we’re in the outside world to like, get exposure to headlines or other things that are happening that you don’t opt in on. And so now because you know, the group on this call right now, we’re very in tune with the Asian community and what’s going on there. We all know what’s happening. And like, I’m being fed all these headlines all the time, but to your point, it’s not being covered by mainstream news outlets. And that’s a very good point that just by like speaking about it, and just like be speaking about our outside of our own, like community, too, because that’s where we do need ally ship, it’s really annoying to like, think about that. We need other people of color, and also white people to be our allies here, because they’re the ones that control mainstream and like, who gets the attention in front of all of America, and not just our little sub segment that is already concerned and can only do so much.

Jesse Lin 27:52
I also wanted to mention, I read somewhere that there was already some somebody in the local community that was like starting a group, basically, for people to volunteer to walk with someone elderly, they’re normally walking by themselves. So I think there are a lot of things that people are doing of their own accord to try to resolve the issue and where the coming together happens, I think is when people respond to those efforts, right? Like, because like, what I’ve seen for like mutual aid groups here in New York during this time is that like, someone sounds the call, and then the community comes to fill that need. And I think that’s where you see that coming together happening because the community is people of different colors, races, economic background, trying to pitch in to help resolve this issue. So I don’t think there’s like a concrete like checklist. But I do think that there are people like taking action. And it just takes that like one person to sound the call. And there are people who are like us, we’re kind of like, well, what do we do? Like, how can we help to fill that call.

Sophia 28:56
But I think that’s a really good point that you made as well, Jesse, was that there are lots of local groups happening. Lots of fundraisers happening as well. I’m not sure if you saw, but there’s a fundraiser a GoFundMe happening for how to report hate crimes. It’s printed in different languages so that our elderly that aren’t tech savvy, can access these books, and have these as a resource and if they are being attacked, know exactly how to report these hate crimes. So that’s something great that Esther Lin was the one organizing that. And that was just great to see that our communities, you know, coming together and finding actionable ways to take action and bring justice to these attacks that are happening.

Angela Lin 29:42
Is that happening nationwide, or is that like Bay Area specific?

Sophia 29:47
Yes, the booklets I think she’s translated into Korean, Japanese, Chinese and Thai and working on other languages as well. I think currently these books are only with in the Bay Area, LA, and New York City region. But I believe she’s also working on other areas as well, because this is happening everywhere. We’re just not hearing about it as often because of like we said earlier, the media is just not covering it.

Angela Lin 30:15
How do we find this for people listening?

Sophia 30:18
Yeah, yeah, so it’s in, actually my Instagram bio, for @morethanyellowblog, um, they can go there and donate directly to the GoFundMe. Or they can find it on Esther Lin’s page as well.

Angela Lin 30:31
Okay, maybe let’s, let’s bring it up a little lighter. So since you’ve started your blog, sounds like you’ve had a lot of positive feedback and communication with others in the community. What’s something positive, you’ve learned about our community through the efforts that you’ve done so far?

Sophia 30:50
I feel like just getting the comments that people feel seen and heard has just been the most, I guess rewarding and humbling experience for me. Sharing my story wasn’t easy. It’s it’s very vulnerable for me, but knowing that I’ve made an impact that way. And it’s great too, because I actually had someone reach out who is a British Born Chinese person. And they reached out saying that they could also relate to my story as well, even though I’m an Asian American, but they, they can relate as well. So I guess just connecting people worldwide with not only my stories, but the other stories that the community is sharing on the blog has just been a really eye opening experience. I am just so emotional, and overwhelmed. Seeing the Asian community really rising up right now, taking action and just spreading awareness of what’s going on. I’m really proud of that. I never thought my little Sophia, you know, only Chinese girls are one of the only in her town would have never thought that this would have happened. And just seeing how far we’ve come has just been, I guess, just like a really rewarding time to be alive.

Angela Lin 32:06
All right, keeping the positive vibes. Let’s roll into our closing Fortune Cookie segment where we’d like to end on a sweet treat. We wanted to ask you what is the most impactful story that’s been submitted to your blog so far? If you can choose favorite children?

Sophia 32:27
I feel like that’s such a tough question. Because I feel like everyone’s stories. It’s their own, you know, it’s very unique, like we have similar experiences, but no one’s lived your shoes completely. I would say, for me just one of the more recent ones Hong-Li – she submitted her story. So she was a victim of a racially motivated attack. She was in a restaurant in LA, and was picking up her order when this man was originally trying to hit on her and she said I’m married, I’m sorry. And then he just started attacking her started calling her slurs telling her to go back to Asia, because his ego was hurt. So that, you know, justifies his actions to become racist, and say all these things to her and she recorded it all on video. And no one stepped in to help her. She had to face all of this herself. And I’m very inspired by her. She’s been just a great person to lean on. She shares lots of resources with me. And I’m just very thankful that she had the courage to speak up and share her story. And she’s been like the driving force for a lot of these movements. It just goes to show that us as a community, we’re stronger together. And we need to keep speaking up about these times, you know, that we are facing, whether it be uncomfortable or it is scary, you know, to speak out against your attacker and to talk about these really uncomfortable times. That can be very traumatizing. But the fact that she did that is just a great driving force for us to continue doing what we’re doing.

Jesse Lin 34:05
And we want to thank you today for joining us and sharing all that with our listeners as well. where can our listeners find you Sophia and your blog?

Sophia 34:15
Yeah, so they can find me @morethanyellow on Instagram, where they can follow and see all the new stories and everything that I’m sharing on there. They can also visit morethanyellowblog.com to submit their own stories so we can continue to amplify Asian American voices.

Angela Lin 34:35
Are you looking for any specific type of stories or experiences or can it be like really anything that they want to share with you?

Sophia 34:43
Really anything? Just any type of experience as an Asian American?

Angela Lin 34:52
Great. Okay. Awesome. Well go ahead and do that listeners. Also, if you Can’t find Sophia some for some reason or you want to go through us your questions for her, feel free to email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com. And we’re happy to pass along any questions or comments to Sophia and reminder that we are still looking for listener story submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want. And yeah, come back next week for another episode.

Angela Lin 0:21
Today we’re talking about loneliness culture. Basically, how do we see being alone in the US or the more Western contexts versus in Asia, because I do think even the word choice of like, whether you’re saying you’re alone, or you’re lonely, is kind of like dependent on which cultural context you’re using. Because you don’t have to be lonely just because you’re alone. So let’s just like open it up, at like the broad level, I think, for me, when I think about the difference between a Western versus Eastern or at least specific Eastern countries like Japan, in the West, we’re all very codependent on each other kind of in that, like, it’s more abnormal to at least be out in public by yourself. So I think there’s a there’s also like a separate difference between recognizing the need to like, have you time because I think that’s become very popular in Western culture recently. It’s like, I need me time and like self care, right? Which are things that you do in the privacy of your home, largely. So like, there’s a difference between being by yourself and like recharging in like a private setting versus like, being by yourself out in the world where other people can see you. So for me, I feel like in the West, if you’re by yourself outside in public, it’s largely seen as like, kind of sad, like, oh, why is that person like by themselves? Like I always think of, remember that movie, Forgetting Sarah Marshall? And they’re like, Jason, fuck, What is his name? What’s the actor’s name? Marshall from home at your mother? Guy? The main guy the movie? He’s like, yeah, anyways, the main guy in movies, like, in, in restaurant in the hotel, right? And he’s like, hey, table for one and Jonah Hill’s character…

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Jesse Lin 2:33
..is just screaming it…

Angela Lin 2:34
Yeah, like rip’s him a new one and the screaming to the back of house being like, just one he’s by himself so sad. Like, I feel like that’s like the inner feelings that a lot of people have. Whether, whether that’s what people actually think when they see a person by themselves, or if it’s just like the person by themselves thinking that that’s what everyone’s thinking about them, if that makes sense.

Jesse Lin 2:59
I think it’s a little bit of both right? And it also depends kind of where you are like, I feel like when you’re maybe like in the morning going to get coffee. I feel like most people are like I don’t want to be, I want to be by myself. But like, if you’re having lunch, like at a cafe by yourself, I feel like a lot of people will be like, what’s up with that? And I, I do think it’s changed. It’s definitely become, at least from my perspective, more acceptable for people to be eating lunch by themselves. Because let’s face it, like when you live in a giant city full of like a bajillion people, like you’re not always going to be able to hang out with someone because there’s like so many other choices for other people to hang out with. Plus, like if you’re new, you won’t have anyone to hang out with. And then finally, like you don’t, I feel like since it’s become more acceptable. More people are engaging in it and realizing that they like having a meal by themselves and not being like, encumbered by other people or being like, oh, Angela, where do you want to go eat today? Well, I’m feeling like healthy but I don’t want a salad. I mean, you’re just like, can you kill me like pick a place like I just want to go eat somewhere. And so you don’t have to do that when you’re by yourself.

Angela Lin 4:57
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I feel like there are you’re right that the, the notion is changing. I don’t think it’s like fully changed where we’re like, every time you see this person by themselves, you’re like, you’re strong, independent, blah, blah. For me, let’s talk about like us, I guess, because I think this is something I struggle with a lot. And like, I have been changing over the years, where I’m trying to tell myself like, it’s okay to be by yourself. Like it really, you don’t need to be with someone else, just because you’re in public. And it’s something I’ve been trying to tell myself, I still feel really self conscious when I’m just like, by myself, and I think it’s a it’s a me problem for sure. Because it’s like, you know, it’s everyone always thinking everything’s about them, like no one else cares about you, you’re gonna mean like, they’re, they’re like living their lives, and like, they’re having conversations of their own, or like, they have their own thoughts in their heads and like, they don’t care that much about you. Versus like, I’m sitting there being like, oh, my God, everyone must be paying attention to how I’m alone. I’m like, how sad I am that I have no friends, like, no one cares.

Jesse Lin 6:12
So but like, with which context are you in that used to bother you the most?

Angela Lin 6:20
Yes. So great question. I think I’m specifically speaking of when you have like leisure time. So like when you are at a long lunch by yourself, or you’re like grabbing a drink in a bar by yourself, or you are watching a movie by yourself like, these are all things I have done before. But I feel very self conscious about when I’m doing it.

Jesse Lin 6:50
That’s really interesting. Partially because my experience is, I don’t think I’ve ever done any of those things by myself. And I don’t know if it’s because I feel self conscious, or because I am a giant homebody. So I’m like, I don’t want to do those things outside. Like, I’ll do that at home. Like, I would rather be in my PJs, drinking, whatever, watching a movie at home than outside. So I’m not sure actually, I need to try that when all this is over goes.

Angela Lin 7:22
I think it’s worth trying.

Jesse Lin 7:23
Yeah. But we’ll see. I’ll have to try it. I do remember this one time. They’re probably like handful of other times, and they just don’t remember it. Because you know, it just wasn’t particularly memorable. But I remember this one specific instance, where I went to a coffee shop. It’s a small chain of coffee shops called cafe grumpy. If you follow me on Instagram and ever seen my orange coffee cup with the frowny face on it that’s where it’s from. And my therapist in college was like telling me, because I was telling him like, I was nervous about meeting people and like didn’t know how to do that. And he was like, oh, here’s some homework, like, go to a coffee shop and just like, hang out there and see if you could meet anyone. I didn’t end up meeting anyone. But we just hung out there for a little bit and was fine. Yeah.

Angela Lin 8:10
Yeah. Well, you know what, and then there’s, there’s also upside sometimes to being by yourself, because there’s also an instance that I remember where so in San Francisco, there’s a really popular restaurant called dumpling time. That’s like, it’s, it’s run by like, hip, probably, like first generation, Chinese people. But they have like, straight up like legit Chinese grandmas and grandpas, like making the dumplings in the windows and stuff. But anyways, um, it’s super hip, and it has like long lines all the time. And I think I was just killing time before meeting with Ramon or something. And I, I bought like an early dinner, so I didn’t have to wait. And I just sat by myself. Yeah. And they gave me better service because I was on myself. That’s what I felt like, because they were kind of like, it was almost unspoken, that they’re like, oh, respect that, like, you’re gonna, you’re eating by yourself in this place that’s usually about like being in like, huge social setting. And like, it seems like you don’t care about all that. And like, I’ve seen you around before. So I guess you know, you’re just here to like, do your own thing. So I feel like they took better care for me.

Jesse Lin 9:26
I feel like well, let’s talk about because we’re also kind of contrasting like, East versus West. Like, I kind of feel like when I’m thinking about loneliness, in the context of my family. What comes to the surface immediately is how my parents are always like, your family’s always gonna be your family. And that’s always going to be there for you. And that’s always made me feel like in a way that the experience of loneliness is not the same because there’s always this idea that like you’re never alone like you’re always backed by these family members no matter like if you’re you know screwing up your life or you moved across the country or whatever like these people will always be like your blood kin and that’s how i’ve always felt about loneliness from their perspective because i can’t imagine and we’ve talked a lot about this like rethinking the perspective of our parents moving here like i can’t imagine how lonely that really was that whole experience coming here and really once they’re here like they don’t they didn’t really have any friends for like a really long time it was just like my mom my dad and like the family so i’ve always thought about it as like they don’t think about or experience loneliness in the same way because they have like this like the family in the family will always be there for you

Angela Lin 10:59
i think that’s an interesting thing to bring up because this isn’t specifically about loneliness but i guess it’s related so broadly what you’re speaking to is like there’s always a community like a built in community for you right and ramon talks about that a lot because it’s also the case in europe where like you are always with your family and like your people you grew up with you probably lived with like stay the people that you know into your adult life you’re just like not a lot of people kind of leave so it always feels like it’s a community and you’re kind of like surrounded by this warmth and he was brings it up because when we look at like well previously we talked about city life and like how home homelessness in San Francisco is one of like the major reason major problems here and he always brings up like you know there’s a reason why homelessness is not really a thing in Europe so much and certainly not in Spain where he’s from and he’s like because people don’t like give up on their families there. Which is like a sad way to look at it but it’s kind of true because like if and it’s the same in asia you don’t see a ton of homeless people out there in at least in like very developed like first world you know cities but the people that are homeless is because they have like no one else right like or they they have family but they’ve chosen not to like that family has chosen not to take care of this person. So it’s just an interesting thing to tie back i guess because I guess there is this difference and like how important and how concrete this is this built in community of family in the west versus in the east or Europe.

Jesse Lin 12:50
Yeah, yeah no i definitely feel that and when you’re saying that like that’s that’s kind of how i feel about loneliness in general like from like western mindset versus eastern mindset is that from a western mindset the loneliness is just your problem from that eastern mindset like it’s kind of like the problem of the community in a sense of your community it doesn’t just belong to you and we’ve talked about the whole like collectivist versus like individualistic perspectives or attitudes towards specific things and i think this is one of them. But interestingly enough i kind of feel like in both societies it’s something that’s not very i don’t know it’s not taken like not taken seriously or not given like not given the weight that it can be on a person’s life in terms of how people address it. Because i kind of feel like when people you know obviously before like Coronavirus when people are like oh i’m lonely you’re just like well you know kind of deal with that everybody’s lonely and like it’s kind of just like downplayed and i also feel like the same way with with our culture as well especially like it’s just not something that my parents ever really talked about so they’re both well

Angela Lin 14:11
I think those are two separate things so yes for those listening we’re talking about pre COVID because everyone i think everyone has like knowledge that loneliness is a next level problem now that everyone is alone but i think the parents thing is different like parents wouldn’t acknowledge it because in asian culture you don’t talk about your feelings and you don’t talk about when you’re hurt so like why would you talk about being lonely and yu just suck it up and like don’t talk about it so i think that’s separate bBu i agree it is downplayed in terms of like the toll it can have on mental health and stuff in both societies the interesting thing though is so we brought up we’re doing compare and contrast right? i think in asia it is seen differently though, in that, like, in in the US, at least we were talking about, you know, varying degrees of like pity, I guess that you you may feel for someone who’s like by themselves instead of with friends, which is the most common way you see people out in public. And versus in Asia, at least in Japan, because that’s my most recent Asian experience where I was living there. It’s very acceptable, and like, almost the defaults, that they assume you’re alone, because it’s actually you can see it in the design of like cafes and restaurants and stuff, they have more solo tables, like the ones that either see one or one or max two people, they have way more of those tables then like, seated for four or four plus. And like, there’s that ramen shop that I love ichibaban and, but, or no, sorry, ichiran, but they have, they have like those, the default is that every person is in this like siloed seating space by themselves. And so there’s like a wall between you and the next person in between your stools. And then the way you get your ramen is like you, you like many ramen shops, you first like put money into a machine when you enter and then you get a ticket. But then the way you actually get your ramen is like you’re sitting at your stool, and then this, like, they know that someone sat down. So then in front of you is this like, window, and it’s closed. But then once you sit down and like opens halfway and you see like hands, then they are like talking to you in Japanese essentially be like, give me your ticket. And then they take your ticket, and then they close it again. And you’re just like by yourself until your ramen’s ready. And then they like open the window and like push the push the bowl in front of you, and you’re just like by yourself in your little cubicle eating your ramen. And unless you want, then if you’re with friends, you can like lift the wall between the two stools to like, be with each other. But the default is being by yourself because they expect people to be by themselves. And that was like a total, totally different way to look at like public space, I guess. And like how acceptable It is to be by yourself. That like kind of shook me when I was when I first got there.

Jesse Lin 17:36
Well, I think part of what we also maybe wanted to touch on was kind of what you already discussed, which is that there’s like a economy kind of built around this in Japan, it’s more visible because of what you’re saying they have like actual physical arrangements for single people usage. But in fact, I think globally, there are like many different ways this is playing out in terms of how capitalism is coming to service, these lonely people. So you could talk about I think more about Japan, but I’ve definitely seen like a rise of a bunch of different services that are like, kind of like rent a friend services, it’s almost like getting your own therapist, but you just have like, you rent the person for an hour. And they like, go shopping with you, or they hang out with you. And I think it’s like, it fills a need, like a gap for people who are like very often super busy, like they’re working a lot or what have you, and they just don’t have time to make social connections. And so people engage these services to try to like, fill that hole, which I find like, I just find it’s really interesting. Like it’s very practical, but I don’t know how I feel about that necessarily. Like I don’t know if that’s good for that person or bad or like, how that’s yeah.

Angela Lin 19:02
I agree. I agree. I it’s a double edged sword because it like it does fulfill a need that they have to not be lonely, right and to and to, I don’t know, not feel awkward in situations like so I’ll get into the more like common things I saw in Japan later. But what you said about like renting a friend, right? Like, you can literally rent a person to do anything with you, like go to a wedding as your date and like, yeah, and actually I remember watching, there was this really good Vice show with Elliot Page and his gay best friend a long time ago – Gaycation. Like several years back..

Jesse Lin 19:44
Is it that old already?

Angela Lin 19:45
Yes, it is. appalling. I know. But I remember their Japan episode they met up with a young gay man there and he was coming out to his family and he rented a friend to join him for the conversation. It was super weird because the guy was like, I mean, he was very supportive and smiling the whole time. But he’s just like, I don’t know you. And I’m just here to like, give you moral support while you’re having this like momentous situation with your family. So yeah, you can rent people to do anything. So yes, there is, I can see the positive and a in that, you know, you really don’t have a friend or family that like can fill that need for you, then having anyone that you feel like is like on your side is going to, you know, bring positivity into your life. But at the same time, I think I agree with you that like, I don’t know that that’s the best thing for that person in the long run. Because I think one of the things I think is challenging with the fact that there is this whole economy around feeding into loneliness culture is that then you are training these people to never have to learn, you know, socialization habits, and how to interact with people in a non monetary like just normal way of like making friends or like picking up a girl or guy at the bar, you know, like, normal things that should happen without taking out your wallet. It’s yeah, I don’t know how I feel about it in the long run.

Jesse Lin 21:21
Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. Basically, like, how can you ever learn how to make friends if you never put in the work to do that? Because it, honestly, like, why people don’t have a lot of friends, is because it is a lot of work to make new friends. Like it takes a lot of time. You have to manifest like a lot of energy. Like I know, for me, like last year, it was like a huge push for me to be like, I want to make more gay friends and I want to meet more, meet new people. And, you know, it worked out I met new people, and I made some new friends. But God, it was so exhausting. I was like, I am tired. Yeah, I love these new people. But I’m very tired. Like.

Angela Lin 22:00
I feel you. I also feel like as you get older, it becomes less, it’s not as easy to meet people. Because you’re not in this like built in social setting where it’s normal to be meeting people so like your entire school system is like a normal time where you’re around a bunch of people and you’re like expected to make friends. And when you exit schooling, and you’re just out in the world, it is very hard. Like you have your work, you have your work people. And then like that’s kind of it that’s really only like built in peeps. So like I remember, business school, my MBA being almost like a second, second chance at like making adult friends. Yeah. Because it’s like, oh, there’s I have to make friends. And like everyone’s on the same playing field of like, we’re all awkward and by ourselves. So we have to make friends with each other. And like now I have, you know, some of my best friends are the ones I made in business school. But like, if I didn’t have that experience, I would have had, you know, way fewer new friends to your point because what we’re what I’ve met these people or like, and and people just aren’t as receptive to like random people coming up to them outside of like, some sort of introductory context, you know?

Jesse Lin 23:25
Yeah. So I think that, I think do we talk about like the impact of the problem, because I did want to like, I did want to touch on that, because I don’t know how many people are aware how serious it is, or like how wide it is. But I was reading this excerpt from this book called The Lonely Century: Coming Together in a World That’s Pulling Apart, which is really just featured on our website so I was just reading this excerpt. And the excerpt was saying basically, that even before Coronavirus, happened, and everyone was forced into their own individual space, which would, you know, would normally cause people who might not have been lonely to be lonely, that there was already kind of this rise of people reporting more loneliness than usual. So the article said that three in five US adults considered themselves lonely. One in two Australians felt lonely at least one day a week. In Europe, Germany, two thirds of the population believed that loneliness is a serious problem. A third of Dutch nationals admitted to being lonely one in 10, severely so. And in Sweden, a quarter of the population said that they were frequently lonely. So I think that there’s like a general wave of it. And I think Corona made some people that normally weren’t lonely lonely, but I think for the majority of people, it just kind of exacerbated problems that were already there and maybe they were just patching it somehow or just getting through with the random or odd social interaction, but definitely, I think it’s been, it’s like a growing problem. And it’s growing everywhere, not just here or in Asia or here Asia, Europe.

Angela Lin 25:20
Yes. Did the article say why it was growing?

Jesse Lin 25:25
Um, that is a good question. I don’t believe that there was a specific reason. They did go into some interesting solutions. So they mentioned that in South Korea, there’s like these colatecs, which is short for Cola, plastic discotheques. And it’s for old people, so that they can, they can have fun together, not at a senior center. So and they were saying that this is actually really fun for a lot of the older Koreans, because the entry for these is very cheap. And a lot of elderly Koreans are, it says that they experienced some of the highest rates of poverty in the world for their age group. So it’s like a way for them to connect that’s not like senior center or just like sitting around the park or something like that. It’s like some kind of interesting activity.

Angela Lin 26:25
All right, so for bringing it back to a higher note. Within the context of being alone, we wanted to share our respective favorite experiences while being alone.

Jesse Lin 26:40
Okay, so my one experience of being alone, that was fantastic. fantabulous was traveling for work. And I know you already mentioned like, this kind of doesn’t count. But like, I flew back from Brazil to New York. And because the company had paid a higher rate for the fare, the airlines basically was like, if you want to buy upgrades, you can buy an upgrade to business class for $500. And I was like, this is like my one and only chance in my life to fly business class for $500. I’m like, I’ll do it. And it was amazing. I sat in my seat by myself, and did everything by myself like didn’t talk to anyone, and like, fell asleep for the entire thing. It was awesome. So good. And then activity wise, like, I, I kind of feel like through the COVID situation. And I’m and I already mentioned, I’m generally kind of a homebody, so I kind of normally like doing stuff by myself or like vegetating by myself. So it hasn’t been like that challenging. But I do say that something new that I did during COVID was to go out on runs by myself, which is really, really soothing. Like, it’s just nice, it’s like a nice way to see the city, like unwind if you’ve had a stressful day. You know, the added benefit of having a workout built in, but mostly, it was just like time for me to be with my thoughts. Half the time. And then the other 50% of the time was just to not think about anything at all, which is lovely. What about you?

Angela Lin 28:20
I don’t know that I have like a specific distinct memory, like that kind of experience. But I guess I’ll speak to pre COVID and during COVID, pre-COVID and I’ll caveat that I was still self conscious. Leading up to but one of my goals which I’ve been very bad about carrying through is one of my goals when I moved back to California was to learn how to skateboard.

Jesse Lin 28:49
Girl it’s dangerous to do that in SF.

Angela Lin 28:52
It is dangerous dude. And unless you find the right spot, and so I haven’t skateboarded in over a year. So it’s just sitting in the closet and Ramon’s like when are you gonna throw it this way. But when I still lived in my old apartment, and we were like a 15 minute walk from Golden Gate Park, I really liked on Sundays, they closed down a full mile stretch of the park to cars, so there’s no cars, you it’s all pedestrian. So like you can run, skateboard, bike in the street instead of having to be on the sidewalk. So I would take my board to Golden Gate Park and skate just that stretch. And like I was very bad, but I didn’t fall ever. But it was very freeing because I would like put in music. You know I’d put in earbuds and then I just skate and there’s good stretches where it’s like semi downhill so I just be like gliding for you know a good 30 seconds which like groovin to my music i’m like this is so free but at the same time i’m like self conscious because i’m like oh my god i’m so bad i’m gonna fall at any moment and people are like staring at me because they kind of were though sometimes because my board was really loud it was like it wasn’t smooth street was like gravelly so it’s like loud while i’m going through this i’m like if people are gonna look i better not fall i was self conscious about the same time when i had those like moments of zen it was like very nice and freeing. During COVID i am really blessed hashtag blessed that we were able to switch apartments during this time to a place that has balcony so i can get sun and so one of my favorite things is literally just sitting out there and like soaking in vitamin d so like i’m still not like great about i’m still on my phone or whatever but i’m just like i’m there to get exposure to the outside world and to get my like vitamin d in and it feels so good it feels like surprisingly re energizing just to have like rays of sunshine on your skin for a couple of minutes.

Jesse Lin 31:10
Well this was a very interesting episode listeners if you have anything you want to contribute if you want to tell us you’re lonely you can definitely reach out to us we will dm you back for sure so if you have any questions comments feelings you want to share with us feel free to dms on instagram and reminder that we’re still looking for listener stories submissions so write us in about whatever experience with this topic you have or whatever you want at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com and come back next week for a fresh new episode.

Jesse Lin 0:20
This week, we have another special guest as part of our featured series Asians doing cool shit. We’re joined by Major David, please help me with your last name David

David
H is silent in this case so it’s Phetmixay

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Jesse Lin
Phetmixay welcome. And if you guys didn’t notice I introduced him as major, o he’s part of the United States Air Force. So David, as part of our series introduction question, would you like to tell us, but where are you really from?

David 0:54
Hey guys, first of all, thanks for having me. And I will offer that my dad’s from Laos, and my mom’s from Thailand. But I was born in California, raised in North Carolina.

Angela Lin 1:06
A lot of different places. Where in California?

David 1:11
I was born in Sacramento. And then my, my dad actually took a Greyhound across America, and then found North Carolina to be the best spot for some reason.

Jesse Lin 1:23
Interesting.

Angela Lin 1:24
In North Carolina was just like, I don’t know, let’s try North Carolina, like family or friends or anything there?

David 1:33
No, I think my my dad had a sponsor. But there’s a lot of Lao folks that moved from Laos to America and other parts of the world. And I think that North Carolina just reminded him of like, I don’t know, maybe a simple lifestyle back in Laos. So I didn’t really grew up in an Asian community, I grew up around other white folks and other Hispanics. In my lifetime, I’ve had a lot of other Asian Americans that have grown up in Asian communities, and I just not happened to be one of them. So we have kind of like a different mind, you can have a different mindset in that case. Dealing with identity and who like like you ask in your podcast, like but where are you really from? I get that a lot. Or you know, sometimes you get oh you’re Chinese or Japanese and then you have to explain where where are you from? And your parents are from and take put forth the effort, which I think is always worth the effort, even if it is a little bit more. But yeah, I mean, sense of identity definitely factors in there. And I just had to learn just a different, different way of life. My parents, they don’t speak the best English or perfect English. But it’s good enough, you know that the first thing they did when they came over from Laos is learn English, they enlisted in ESL classes. And so that’s the reason why I can speak English well, but I didn’t learn too much Lao or Thai at home. So I just started learning whenever I got into the Air Force, really,

Angela Lin 3:03
That’s really interesting. But one of our best friends her husband, like his family chose not to teach him how to speak Mandarin growing up, because they were afraid that he would learn English with an accent. And now it’s like one of his regrets is not knowing how to speak his language. So sounds like you know how to speak your language now but like, what do you know, if your parents actively chose not to do that for that reason? Or..?

David 3:30
Yeah, my dad, and my mom specifically said that in order to succeed in the US, then we’re gonna have to learn English, and that’s gonna be the primary language. They did try to teach me one time. I do remember, whenever I was a kid, they wrote, they put the Lao alphabet in front of me, and they put a flyswatter next to it, because that was a weapon of choice. They’re like, you’re gonna learn this. So they didn’t have time to like, actually follow through what they had to work. So I skipped that part. But I do you know, so I got into the language program in the Air Force. It’s called the language enabled Airman’s program in 2012. And whenever I got in, I didn’t know how to read or write. And so now, to this day, I put forth a lot of effort and time and they have given me a lot of classes and I’ve actually been to Laos on duty for a few times. I work in the embassy work in the POW-MIA mission. For those that don’t know, that’s a prisoner of war missing in action. I’m going out there and then helping translate between villagers and Lao people and Americans while we’re out there trying to recover remains from the war. And so I’ve been pretty lucky in my career so far in which, you know, they they let me get this program, they teach me how to read and write and they give me opportunities to use it. And so at the same time, I get to connect with my own family because you know, I can speak read and, and communicate with them better.

Angela Lin 4:58
Damn. Like jealous of you because we, I mean, Jesse and I both grew up with households where we did speak Chinese at least some of the time or or all the time. And then we went to Chinese school like once a week, every week for our entire like until high school graduation essentially, but I would argue are like speaking and certainly our writing and reading skills are..

Jesse Lin 5:25
Definitely still grade school

Angela Lin 5:27
Pretty wack. And so for to hear you, having grown up without learning it at the time of your life, where it’s like the easiest to learn the language and then learning it as an adult and being like, totally fluent enough to be translating and like, having these really tough conversations is really, like admirable clap claps for you. And also like jealousy for me.

David 5:53
I appreciate that. It did take a lot of work. Actually, I’m learning Thai right now, in preparation for my assignment to Bangkok. So they’re very similar Lao and Thai very similar. But Thai has more consonants and vowels. So it’s a, there’s more to mix and match in there.

Angela Lin 6:52
You said that now when you go home with your parents, you do speak Lao to each other even though growing up you spoke English to each other? Was that a weird transition? Because for me, I’m in this like weird boat where my mom’s English is not very good. So she knows more than she lets on but she just like pretends like she doesn’t know. So then she forces us to speak Mandarin with her. So I’m used to like, Okay, if mom is talking to me, I’m speaking in Mandarin. But my dad was a businessman. So he had a lot of business with America and other Western countries. So whenever he’d come home, he would speak English to me. So I’m like, okay, with Dad I’m doing English with him. But my mind has like a problem with trying to mix the two. So like, if I tried to speak Chinese to my dad, I feel really weird. Like, yeah, was was it weird switching at a different at a random point in your like adult life with how you were communicating with your parents?

David 7:55
Very much. So well, in my in my situation. My parents always spoke Lao to me and I would respond in English. But then the first time I actually spoke to my mom in Lao, because they did not see my progression. They don’t, they don’t know, they didn’t see. And so I just I’m speaking Lao to her all of a sudden, cuz I’ve spent a month in Laos before and I’m like, I’m comfortable now. And she just laughs and I was like, I’m trying to be, you know, back to the roots here. But it did take like a hot minute for her to be like, okay, my dad was more of like, okay, I mean, it’s not bad. And so I have gained enough confidence in it, where I actually spoke some Lao at my promotion ceremony. Really the promotion ceremony it was for my mom and dad, because, you know, they’re the immigrants that came over and tried to make a better life for their children. And so I could just pin on the rank and be like, Okay, cool. I’m a major. Now, this doesn’t really affect me that much, because it’s just part of the progression. But for more so for my parents to, to showcase them like, hey, we’re doing well over here. And you know, you might not see me every day, but things are still going good.

Jesse Lin 9:13
When you were going through that program to like learn the language. Did you tell your parents?

David 9:18
Yeah, so I did because the Air Force gave me an opportunity to go visit Laos. I haven’t been able to visit Thailand as part of the program, but I’m just going to work there arriving this summer. But that gave me opportunities to see my family for the first time like a lot of my family for the very first time in my life when I went over that in my 20s. So because my parents moved and immigrated to the States, I only grew up with immediate family. So having that sense of like aunts, uncles, grandma, grandpa cousins, wasn’t really there for me except trying to just survive and like trying to be successful in America.

Angela Lin 9:59
What was that like? When you went and saw your extended family for the first time?

David 10:05
it was, it was pretty emotional. Like we, we had gone to Thailand whenever I was younger, maybe like 10-11 years old. And then I finally came back as an adult. And my dad is the oldest in his family. And I’m the oldest in the family. Right? Yeah. Cuz my dad has not been back for like, over 30 years. And so my, my, my family in Laos is not, you know, flown to America, because it’s so hard to get a visa to go over there. So they haven’t seen each other in a while. And so seeing whenever they see me, they see my dad, always asking what’s up and, and I’m trying to represent the family over there. And there’s just, it’s just full of love, even though we haven’t seen each other some some folks, some of my family members I’ve never seen before. Just nothing but love from them as soon as I arrive, and they know that I’m coming and I yeah, I really, it’s an it’s a, there are moments that, you know, I’m not really accustomed to not the loving part, but just like being around family and just hanging out.

Angela Lin 11:15
Oh, I got all the warm and fuzzies

Jesse Lin 11:20
I really feel that I mean, Angela, I have talked about it before, but like, I definitely feel the same way when I’m visiting my larger family in Taiwan. I feel like, it’s so nice to be part of like this larger unit of people that like know each other and hang out and like they’re family in name and actually family in practice. Like they’re friends and they’re there for each other. And every time we go back home was like, damn, like, I’m missing out on like, two years of everyone’s lives every time I come back as every two years. And it’s like, something completely different people have babies or they’re married or whatever. So yeah, definitely feel that?

Angela Lin 11:53
Okay, well, changing gears a little bit. being in the military, like you said, you’re one of the only well, Asian people, minority probably broadly. But what was that, like when you told your parents like, hey, I think I want to join the forces as my career. And was that something foreign to them? Do they like get what that really meant? And like, did they feel like that was a good track for you? Or how was the reaction to that initial discussion?

David 12:24
My dad was super supportive, because he had some experience back in his day. And so especially going to the Air Force Academy, out of anything, he was all about it. And if anything, it really like, helped me understand it gave me more opportunities, I guess, because when you go to the Air Force Academy, the government spends so much money on us, that they just make you go through a ton of training. And the more in life in general, the more experiences you have, the more you can learn. Because one, you are able to make mistakes. As whenever I was growing up, like I wasn’t allowed to make that mistakes, just trying to be a model minority, I guess you can say. And then when you’re afraid you can’t be bold, and you can’t be bold, you don’t learn. And so going to the academy helped me change my mindset from being super cautious to be more bold in how I conduct myself. And so that helped me learn a lot. And so the result of that is a, you know, successful career. And then my parents being like, oh, yeah, so you, so you get to graduate, you know, have a guaranteed job. You’ve been you’ve been getting paid. And since you went into the Academy, and now I’ve been in Asia since 2012. And going back to the motherland. So it’s kind of a it’s kind of a incredible route if you think about it because not a lot of people will have my kind of career path. And so I hopefully, you know, they come over and visited me know with COVID allows it, and that we can like reunite with everyone. But my parents actually came out visit me when I was stationed in Korea, Seoul and Busan. And then they came out here in 2018, Summer 2018, like one of the hottest summers that Japan had, and I was having them, like walk around everywhere. Like for me, you know, I’m a young dude so I’m just like, yeah, you can do it I think you’re just complaining too much. You find out that they’re too, it was actually really hot. And it was very interesting for them because their parents, right. So I’m like paying, I’m taking care of them. Yeah, because I have, you know, I’m financially responsible. Like, I know where to go. I know I know how to do things. And there was like, you can see it was like weird for them to work for them not to be taking care of me and I’m just taking care of them. I’m glad they even came over to show to them like hey, I’m not doing too bad over here. And I want to show like that I can not only take care of myself but you guys.

Jesse Lin 14:57
So you know we kind of just talked about how your career felt like to your parents or what they thought about it. Where did you first get the idea of joining the forces? Like was there a moment where you were like, this is for me, or you were just kind of curious and you joined up and realized, as you were going through the training that it was like, this is right for you?

David 15:19
Yeah, I, we actually had to move a lot whenever it’s going up in North Carolina. So we went to like four different first grades. And we’re trying to trying to find a stable job. And just, there’s so much chaos when you’re like going through all that. So then, what I think what happened was that I craved order and going into the military, in that culture is that there’s always going to be order in the middle of chaos. I went through a lot of training in my high school years, and I liked it. So I decided to go with it.

Angela Lin 15:55
How did you choose that branch, specifically?

David 15:58
Specifically, because my dad said, army life is a lot of suffering. And I he didn’t want me to suffer. So then he said, you should go Air Force. And that’s the one thing I said, okay, sure I agree with this.

Jesse Lin 16:10
Okay. Wait, is there like a organization of which arm of the Armed Forces suffers the most?

David 16:19
Yeah, I generally speaking there is like there are understood or implied levels of the amount of suck that you have to go through. And okay. And so I think like Marines and army guys have to endure the most and then Air Force, because we, our mission is, is engaging from a distance, so we have more time to react rather than immediately.

Jesse Lin 16:45
And ignorant personal question, do you know how to fly anything?

David 16:50
No. Well, they did teach us, you know, like, we were flying engineless aircraft and stuff. But I didn’t go through pilot training, but a lot of my friends are.

Angela Lin 17:01
I mean, you’re you’re stationed in Asia, but the forces that you’re with are not all Asian. So what was it like going through initial training and like, the Academy, and then now, you know, full time being one of the few Asian people? And did that come up really, at at all? Or is it just like, you know, we’re not trying to talk about race or not trying to, like, make it seem you’re all the same? What was that like?

David 17:28
Yeah, whenever I went to the academy actually was the first time I wasn’t asked if I was Chinese, or Japanese. So that was nice to start off with, because people are a little bit more educated to have to get into into the institution. But in my career, you know, before I think last year was with George Floyd and everyone, we didn’t really talk about diversity that much we have diversity training, because when the military were a government entity, so we acknowledged it, but I don’t think people really understood you know, how to ask the right questions of like, okay, you grew up in this part of the country? Or maybe this your skin color that you have, probably you have some type of trauma growing up, whether you grew up in Asian community or not, you have some form of discrimination that you have experienced. And that is one thing that I don’t think people non color, actually think about, which is okay, do you know, that’s something that they have other things to think about. But to engage people of diverse backgrounds I think that would be, that’d be helpful for them. I guess to now since is the most fresh in my mind, I actually had a noncommissioned officer that worked for me, in my previous billet. And he said that in his 11 year career, I was the first Asian American officer that he worked for. He’s like, this is 11 years, and he’s, um, he’s of Tibetan descent, grew up in India, and then moved to Minnesota, and I’m the very first Asian American officer he’s ever worked for. And I was like, that’s, that’s wild. So that’s if we can give you an indicator of how diverse it is in the Airforce.

Angela Lin 19:14
Question I’ve been noodling during this time is how you think of identity or if it’s been something that you’ve had to deal with, while you’re in the forces in the fact that you’re American. But you also on the outside, you look Asian, and especially when there’s conflict with other Asian countries, has there ever been a sort of like questioning of your Americanness or your patriotism, just because you’re Asian, because I’m just thinking back on like, obviously, we’re much more progressive time than in the past, but like during the Vietnam War, and like other wars in the past where we’ve been fighting other Asian countries, but there are people of that descent who are Americans fighting on the US side there was, you know, hatred and like misguided discrimination against the American, you know, Asian people that are fighting for America. So I’m just curious if that’s ever been something that’s come up and your time that you’ve been in the forces or if, you know, luckily, things have changed for the better. And you haven’t experienced that.

David 20:27
Yeah, I think people are more consciously aware of, but I’m also in the Officer Corps, which is more strategic thinking. Our strategic competitor, according to the National Security Strategy is China and Russia and then so we have these discussions in we have our own kind of group of Asian American officers in the Air Force. And we have these kind of discussions, actually, one of them is a Chinese American officer. And most people are saying, no, it hasn’t really affected them, maybe would affect them if they still keep in touch with relatives back in China, or Taiwan or Singapore, or wherever they have their family. But for the most part, as long as you’re able to get the mission done, then I think you’re okay. But then at the same time, people are more willing to engage you because you’re in the military, and you’re an officer and say, I don’t understand this. Can you help teach me?

Jesse Lin 21:21
Do you feel like your upbringing as an Asian American specifically helped you in any way in the armed forces? Like, was there something that you brought to the table that you didn’t see in your classmates or colleagues?

David 21:36
For me, it’s about the community. And I think that’s what I bring to the table. It’s all about how the team can accomplish and win together versus just one person. Because I think we do have that capitalistic mindset because we’re a capitalistic country of like, me, me, me, me all the time. But I have focused on the team that I’m with, or that I’m leaving, and making sure that every one of us wins. Because I think if every one of us wins, then we can part paths and continue that line of goodness and paying it forward learning and teaching other people on the way.

Angela Lin 22:13
Okay, so I think we are just about ready to move into our closing fortune cookie section. And for full transparency, the question we had prepared is not applicable anymore. We’re gonna ask you what the coolest thing is that you’ve ever flown but obviously, that is not applicable anymore based on what you said, so I think maybe a good alternative is like, what’s the coolest mission or like the you’re most proud, mission or project that you you’ve been a part of, while you’ve been in the forces thus far? Sounds like you have a lot of cool things ahead. But you know, thus far,

David 22:52
Yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been really fortunate to be a part of a lot of cool missions. I will say that the coolest aircraft that I’ve flown in is an F-15. I received an F-15 incentive ride when in Virginia when they were still stationed there at Langley, and rollercoasters have not been the same since then. So we pulled up 8.4 G’s, that was the maximum that we pulled, it was a crazy amount. It’s a workout to fly in a fighter aircraft, you respect those guys and girls. And so the coolest mission that I’ve been a part of is probably when I was in Korea. So I lead a team of 60 people. And whenever we’re trying to get the mission done, everyone has their own individual, I guess, individualistic characteristics. I went through a lot in that because I was leading young people, older people with families, from all kinds of different backgrounds. But at the end of the day, I try to use that as a strengthening piece to the team to say, this is what we need to do. We’re all going to come together no matter what, because I experienced, you know, I’ve been in teams where they’ve been fractured a little bit. But in this case, because I’m the boss, I set the tone. So we all agreed to work together. And we had a pretty tight knit family because not only because of how we were but because the situation was so dire, we didn’t know what’s going to happen ever, every single day that really helped grow the team. And I think when I know a lot of them are going to be friends for the rest of their lives because of what we had to go through. I’m really proud of them. Because we earned a lot of awards. We didn’t do it to earn awards or anything, but just to grow and help teach them and then leave from Korea and then spread their knowledge. They have a lot of credibility because of what we went through.

Angela Lin 24:45
Well, thank you for joining us. And if we didn’t already say it, thank you for your service, because it’s so you know, it’s kind of like I don’t have enough words to say to thank people that are in the forces because it’s a – has a lot of sacrifice and like a lot of people aren’t willing to sign up for. So I’m really thankful for you and everyone else in the forces. And thank you for joining us today before your first day as a major.

David 25:15
Thanks for having me.

Jesse Lin 25:17
Well, thank you listeners for joining us. If you have any questions, comments or feedback for us or for David, please feel free to reach out to us and reminder that we’re still looking for listener stories submissions, so write us in about whatever experience with this topic you have, or whatever you want at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com

Angela Lin 0:20
Today we’re getting hairy. And we are talking about China, all things China. Well not all things, a lot of things about China, which is sticky for many reasons. But as you know by now Jesse and I are both Taiwanese, which, you know, the back. Whoa, I mean, it’s a weird, it’s a weird topic, right? Because a lot of people from Taiwan speak about it, as you know, a whole separate thing and like a whole separate identity. But when we talked to Ryan recently, right, and also my dad previously, you have to just acknowledge also that like, culturally, most of our culture comes from China. Right, like, and we’re like, ethnically Chinese. So that’s part of us. But we continue to have this very sticky, like identity crisis between Chinese versus Taiwanese. And the government’s between the two, I guess, we can’t say countries that’s a debatable term, but the two entities?

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Jesse Lin 1:34
Well, you know, we’re private citizens. So we’re not bound by the One China doctrine. You can call it a country if you want.

Angela Lin 1:40
I mean, I think it’s a country I have a passport, we’re talking about this, but like..

Jesse Lin 1:43
I’m getting one.

Angela Lin 1:45
And now you’re in the process. I’ve talked about this. And it’s like, so embarrassing, but I literally didn’t know that Taiwan wasn’t like, you know, formally recognized as a country by everyone until like, a few years ago. And it’s probably because of this passport. Like I knew I had those passport. I’m like, you don’t get passports for things that aren’t countries. I just like never knew about the like, technical situation behind it.

Jesse Lin 2:14
Well, honestly, I think that that’s like, a little bit purposeful, right? Like, that’s the point of the whole one China thing is so that people don’t realize that it isn’t its own thing.

Angela Lin 2:24
Yeah, super weird. Another thing that I felt stupid about. Not really getting is like, I always got really confused between Republic of China and People’s Republic of China, where I kind of was like, well, first of all, where are we still? Why do we start the word China in our name, if like, we’re trying to be Taiwan, you know, I mean, and so I would get confused of like, which one is China? Like, actual China, right? And for those who, who are embarrassing, like me, and like, didn’t really know either, until semi recently, Taiwan is called Republic of China, because it well, as we know, like people left China’s you form Taiwan. But it’s because they claim that Taiwan is the real China, which I didn’t really associate that with the name before. And then it’s kind of like I think of it like when you want a website domain, and someone stole your website domain, and then China’s like, fuck you took Republic of China, so I gotta like, add a different word into it to make it my own.

Jesse Lin 3:28
Yeah. That’s how I always remember that. I was like, oh, if you add like a people, somewhere in the name, it means they’re communists.

Angela Lin 3:36
Oh, that’s fair. I guess I don’t really know what people know about the history of China in terms of how it’s transformed over the last two to three decades. Because I didn’t know too much about it like..

Jesse Lin 4:39
I don’t know.

Angela Lin 4:40
It’s really fuzzy. So essentially, when Mao took over China and kicked out Taiwan, right, like that’s when the civil war happened and People’s Republic of China forms he made it a like totally communist society where you know, it has like very beautiful aims like everyone’s equal and like, there’s a social net for everyone, and like this is gonna be a perfectly planned out society and a bunch of his reforms just like failed and millions people died of like starvation. And after Mao, they had other leaders that started to figure out like, you know, this, like totally communist thing doesn’t work. So maybe we should try a little bit of this like capitalist thing, but make it still communist, which is like not a thing. So, essentially, in the 80s, they started opening up trade with, like, the global economy. So they started allowing foreign investors to invest in Chinese companies, and they had like tax incentives and stuff. So I actually read one of the major cities that they or like major areas that they were like, hey, foreign investors come invest was Shenzhen, which is where my dad opened his, his factory when he’s still in that. So that’s, it’s like, no surprise, but that’s where he ended up doing business. But essentially, they were like, hey, let’s like, let other people give us money. And like, open this shit up. And then they also started like Stock Exchange, basically, they were like, let’s borrow a bunch of things from capitalism. So that’s how they really started, like boosting everything. And the difference, because I had to look this up, because I was like, I don’t really get the difference between like a capitalist society and what China does, because they have huge companies, right? Like Alibaba, and like, all these huge fucking companies that make so much money. And like, how is that not capitalist? The difference is very fine. So they have essentially a capitalist market where there are a bunch of private companies that are, you know, operating, and they keep their profits and all that stuff. But they also have state owned businesses that like are supposed to make up a good portion of their market, but is in reality, not like a big portion. Yeah. And theoretically, the state owned companies are supposed to pay back some of what they make to the people like to the government, so that the government can use that money to help their people. But that hasn’t really been happening for the last few decades. So they’re all it was essentially just like capitalism until Xi Jinping was like, fuck that you owe us money. So. So it’s like kind of rolling back. But it’s just like a weird, I don’t know.

Jesse Lin 7:32
So I just want to say because a lot of people talk about Chinese people being able to copy something, but like, in the process of copying, make it better, either through like, more efficient and production methods, or blah, blah, blah. And I want to say this is like exactly their government. They were like, oh, look at the communists in Russia. Let’s copy some of that. Then they’re like, wait, no, they died. So now there’s like this thing from the west. Let’s copy a little bit of that. And then now we have what they have right now. Like this is fully anecdotal but that’s how I kind of feel like how it kind of rolled out. And it’s really interesting that you mentioned that they have many state sponsored companies, because so I made like a huge airplane geek because I really want to fly business class, like everywhere I go one day, or points and stuff. And almost every airline in China is subsidized by the government. I think there’s only one regional airline that is like fully private and is not subsidized by the government. So I think like China Southern China Eastern like, all those are all like fully government owned entities.

Angela Lin 8:40
I have you flown them? I think I flew at one like one of the regional airlines once and then I heard other people talk about they suck. Like they’re not because Asian airlines have like a different tier that they operate out, right, like Singapore Airlines. And like, yeah, China Airlines, you know, Eva airlines, all these Taiwanese ones are pretty good, too. But like, you know, the, the Asian ones in general are known for like, next level service. Yeah. And actually, I read something else that because you talked about, like, you know, China, copying things, and like, how it rolls into manufacturing, or whatever, but I guess recently, President Xi was like, China doesn’t want to be everyone’s factory anymore. Like we’re gonna invest heavily into like high tech, and like sciences and stuff. So that’s where that’s where I feel like a lot of the kind of like, threat feels like it’s coming from for the US and like other first world powers is like, China’s like, very quickly moving its way through this like, we were agriculture and then now we’re like, heavy manufacturing. And now we’re gonna move into like, you know, STEM and high tech. We’re gonna like, take you over that’s, that’s what it feels like. I think for a lot of people in these like powerful, traditional countries

Jesse Lin 10:01
It’s really interesting because I kind of feel like they could do it all. Because there’s so many people that live there, like you could literally have everything because there’s so many people. But I also remember reading a while ago that like, part of that is the case. But the other part of it is that as wages increase and standards of living increase, they also can’t manufacture stuff as cheaply as they could in the 90s. So actually, a lot of the stuff is actually being outsourced out of China, like stuff that China needs no longer is made in China because of cost reasons. Of course, what about cost reasons? Like, I don’t want to pay this guy a penny, because I can pay this guy half a penny and kind of you know, but I was reading that too. And like, because this, the labor pool, has better skilled people, like around this production, stuff like that, and their wages have improved. There are places like Shenzhen where I feel like the manufacturing has declined because the cost is no longer competitive versus manufacturing it in another Asian country like Thailand, or something like yeah, Vietnam. Exactly.

Angela Lin 11:13
That’s interesting. It’s kind of weird to me, though. I mean, I understand that, like their wages are growing across the board. So that makes sense. But China’s such a huge country. So like, if it’s not Shenzhen, why is it? Why can you just move to like a different, still rural part of China, because I think something that people don’t think about is how big China is. And when they think of China, they’re like others, Beijing, and there’s Shanghai. And like, these are all like super glamorous, like first world cities, and they are, but then there’s a shit ton of poor people in the countryside. And the people you see traveling abroad are the, you know, X percent, the top tier X percent that are rich and able to leave, but most people aren’t. And like, I know, it’s been a long time. But I always remember when I was younger, until college, my parents used to take me back to not just Taiwan, but also China, because my dad had that factory in China. So like, we’d spend most of the time in Taiwan, but then we’d spend, I don’t know, three weeks or so in Shenzhen. And I remember the first time I went to China, I was just like, appalled, because I was, I don’t know, nine years old or something. And I remember getting off the plane and we’re getting in the car to go to our apartment. There were just all these like, really poor, like, straight up dirty, like have dirt on their faces, kids with no shoes that were like, running up to us and like chasing our van begging us for money. And I was just like, what is this and like, that was the sentiment kind of everywhere when we weren’t in our kind of like bubbles of like, we’re meeting business associates or like family friends for lunch or whatever those were normal encounters. But when we’re just like, on the street, and like, in not our like, you know, safe bubbles, it was just poor people everywhere and like begging you and like, my dad used to get mugged all the time in China. And it was just like, there’s income disparity is very real. And like, no one talks about it in the West, because they’ve never been to like real China, if they’ve been to China at all, they’ve only been to like these really high class like first world cities that they want to put in front of you, but they’re hiding the reality of, you know, the rest of the nation.

Jesse Lin 13:38
I don’t know why they couldn’t shift it. Although I do feel like, you know, anecdotally from the various random pieces that I read interest pieces that I read is that I kind of feel like a lot of people who are poor ended up migrating to a larger city for for productive production jobs where like the factories, and like production stuff is clustered. And to the point that I was making earlier like it might have been economical at some point but past a specific wage point even though the wage is still low. You know, people love to screw other people out of their wages minimum wage here is still like nothing. So like of course the company’s just like, you know, why pay you this little bit when I can pay you even less somewhere else. But of course, there’s like, you know, a huge population population there so there’s no way that like, everything will become out source like it just it wouldn’t be possible to support that large of a population I don’t think.

Angela Lin 14:42
So I – I always have this like, fear of China. Because they they’re like the OG Big Brother, right like they are always listening and obviously not here. Well kind of here. They they’ve infiltrated yeah I was looking up like, do they censor everything? Or is it like certain things? Because, like, what is going to get me in trouble, which I mean, like, and because they have so many things that like people have gripes with regards to their human rights, like, mock there have and whatever. And so I was looking it up and I was basically like, you’re only going to get censored or arrested or whatever, if you go against these, like four principles, and I was like, what the fuck are the 4 principles? So I looked it up. And it was established during the Mao era. So like the OG, Communist Party era, okay. And it’s these four things. So the principle of upholding the socialist path, the principle of upholding the People’s Democratic dictatorship, whatever that means, okay. The principle of upholding the leadership of the Communist Party of China, and the principle of upholding Mao Zedong thought and Marxist Leninism. So it’s pretty stringent. It feels like to…

Jesse Lin 16:18
I mean, it’s just all in favor of the party and those who are in party.

Angela Lin 16:22
The one party. Yeah, it’s um, it’s kind of scary to me. And also what what the hell does People’s Democratic dictatorship mean? Because I feel like those are contradictory words.

Jesse Lin 16:36
It means that a dictator that the people put in power.

Angela Lin 16:38
Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And that you will be like, fully faithful towards that dictator.

Jesse Lin 16:47
You know, it’s quite interesting, because I do feel like that kind of mirrors the familial structure of Asian families where you have like patriarch…

Angela Lin 16:58
I didn’t nominate my patriarch or matriarch, they’re just there.

Jesse Lin 17:03
I think that’s the point. Right? Like, they’re just there. And you just defer to them.

Angela Lin 17:08
Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, because essentially, they’re like, you know, it’s kind of like this like cultish. Yeah, of this the Communist Party and like, sometimes there’s like a one figure that is kind of their like, cultish leader. And what’s interesting was when I dug into, like, the history to do all this research, um, obviously, Mao was that person, right? Like, I remember, when I was in China, when I was like a teenager, we went to a restaurant that is actually a chain of restaurants. And it’s like, Mao’s restaurant, like inside is just like shrines to Mao – Chairman Mao. Like, he’s like a god. And like, it’s just like portraits of him and everything everywhere. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And I started, like, talking a little bit of smack about it in English to my dad. And he’s like “shh!”, they’re always listening. I was like, I believe, so I’m gonna stop talking right now. But yeah, so Mao has always had like, you know, as far as like Chinese leaders in the recent era, he’s always been the kind of like, single cultish leader. But what I read that was interesting is that President Xi, the current one, he wants it, and he’s got it. So they actually, I forgot what the official term is. But like, they rolled him into their constitution, like his thoughts into the Constitution, because those four principles are their constitution. So that’s why they get to say like, oh, you’re you’re going against our Constitution, so we can arrest you. But they’ve rolled him in his thoughts into it. And as we I think talked about before he has the power to abolish the presidential term limits, which used to be like two terms, like most nations have presidents, right? And he’s like, nah, I’m staying him. And so there’s no, there’s no end in sight. And he could just be president for life, which goes well, I guess, with people’s dictatorship.

Jesse Lin 19:13
I mean, he probably saw Putin, he’s like, that’s where it’s that, I’m a cop that. Well, it’s really interesting that you you mentioned their constitution as well, because I kind of feel like that’s the case when we when we look at our own constitution. And we’re like, what does this mean? And our shit was written more than 50 years ago, it was like 200 years ago. So you’re like, what do these people who probably had like a colostomy bag made out of wood mean when they wrote this stuff. And obviously, there’s huge debates about the intention and like, how should it be interpreted and all that, but I guess they did away with that by enshrining the leadership into the constitution so they could basically just rewrite the constitution.

Angela Lin 20:01
Whatever you say one soul leader. Yeah, it’s kind of scary. I agree. I mean, constitutions were written in the past and their rule, no matter which country there’s like a lot of debate over their interpretation. But this is like, I don’t know, it’s just so extreme, because it’s like, oh, well, yeah. You censored at the light end, right, like, of punishment. Otherwise, you’re thrown in jail without trial? Because they don’t believe in the judiciary system. Yeah. So there’s no trial, and then you’re just held indefinitely, and we can do whatever we want with you. And, yeah.

Jesse Lin 20:41
On the flip side, devil’s advocate, I do think that it’s amazing that they’ve governed a country of a billion people without like, exploding. Like, certainly the lifespan of the country is pretty short. And, of course, I need to caveat the exploding piece with there are many problems in China. But I mean, like, it hasn’t disintegrated into a flaming pile of shit yet, which is what I would expect for 1 billion people. But I mean, to say like, the government has done enough to drag people up words that they’re satisfied enough without rocking the boat. Like they feel like it’s sufficient. It’s cool, like no real large population, like uprising or anything like that.

Angela Lin 21:22
I guess, it’s kind of like if you have a caged lion in a zoo, all they know is this little freedom, they have close space. And then when you let them out into the fucking Sahara, or whatever, then they’re like, oh, this is the world, you know? Because actually, what you’re saying brings up something else I found, which is like, so China’s relationship with international entities is really interesting. What I found in terms of like, how much China has power and stuff is super interesting, because essentially, what they’ve been doing for the last modern times is they show up to all these like global organizations so that they can start establishing their kind of global importance. But the as the United States has been, like, ripping funding, and like support of a lot of these organizations, they’re kind of like sliding into these DMS being like, Hey, y’all, like we’re here. And if – sorry -, if the US gave like $100 million, I forgot what the actual number was, let’s say it was like 100, whatever, China would only give like 20 or 30, which is not at all the same. But like, it’s optics of like, well, us is like abandoning us. And then China’s coming in here and like doing what they can, you know. And they’re doing that kind of like everywhere. And then they’re like helping other countries where they’re like, hey, let me help you build like a bridge here, like build like an aqueduct here. And they’re just like lending a little hand here and there – little favors nothing that’s going to like crush them, but is enough so that they’re planting little seeds everywhere. And what’s interesting is that then what they’re doing is like establishing power within these organizations slowly so like, I read something about some Council in the UN that like, isn’t that important. It was like, I don’t know, food and agriculture. It wasn’t like the most like prime thing to care about. But they wanted their candidate to win. So they like essentially strong arm the two other there was like one country that was like, gonna probably win. And they were like, hey, we’ll forgive all your debt to us if you back down. So they like bribe them there. And then everyone else who’s trying to oppose them, they’re like, we’re not going to export anything to your countries, if you don’t back down, and then they back down. And then China won the council. So like, they’re doing these little like sneaky ass things around all these little organizations to like, slowly take little pieces of power. So that’s a little scary to me that like, it’s like little things now, but I feel like over time, it’s gonna compound and they’re, you’re gonna look back and be like, what, how did this happen?

Jesse Lin 24:09
I mean, they’re also like, as to your point, like, they’re economically invested in many countries. Like I remember reading a while ago, an article about oil development in Africa. And they were saying like, it used to be all western US companies. Now. It’s all Chinese companies that are building the refineries, the factories, like investing in the local area. And that has a huge impact on how the local government may or may not make decisions in favor or not in favor of the country that happened employs most people in their region.

Angela Lin 24:45
Yeah. Well, it also gets scary for Taiwan. Because well Taiwan doesn’t get to be in the UN, right, that’s not a thing. And then they used to be in the WHO until Tsai Ing-wen became the president. Because the president before was part of Kuomintang, which is the like pro China government. And they were like, well, you’re chill, like, you can be here because China’s here, you’re pro China, like, that’s chill. And then as soon as they swapped to the like pro Taiwanese independence president, they’re like, nah, you’re out of here. So then they kick them out. And like it was pretty public. But during the COVID pandemic, because Taiwan did such a great job of like obliterating COVID from their country, immediately, they like started giving aid to all these different countries, right, like sending masks to different countries, including the US and like, money and all, you know, sharing knowledge and all that great stuff. And people were demanding, like, hey, global organizations, can you like recognize what they’re doing here? And like the accomplishments they’ve made, and there was a WHO representative who was like, asked on the spot about Taiwanese – how successful Taiwan was, with COVID. And she like, dodged it and was like, oh, yeah, various regions of China have been very successful. Because because China has their, you know, little tentacles everywhere, and the WHO, and they’re like, we can’t rock this boat. So we’re just gonna, like, pretend like I didn’t hear you. And like, pretend you said, China, it’s really frustrating to me to hear that kind of stuff.

Jesse Lin 26:23
Yeah, I think it is a major problem, especially, you know, we’ve talked about, I mean, we’ve seen a lot of news locally about how politics obstructs the best path forward, like that most correct path to take. And I think this is a really great example of that, because like, what I’m sure there’s some kind of gain that they’re getting out of doing this, but it’s all optics or politics. And, like, from the public health standpoint, it’s quite stupid, because you’re cutting out a partner that is doing very well in the suppression, who has knowledge of handling situations like this, like when the original SARS came around, and also you’re cutting off funding to a country that may need it, it means that they also don’t have access to WHO funding, research I think they don’t have access to and nor will they have access to vaccines when it comes out. So I think that yeah, it’s one of those things where the politics of it is definitely trumping the actual practical situation.

Angela Lin 27:29
Something that’s like, scary to me is President Xi his like lifelong mission is to take back Taiwan that you know, that’s like the main reason he said I’m terminating the term limits is like until I finish taking back Taiwan my terms not over. That’s the like most important mission to him. So I’m pretty scared for for Taiwan. I feel like there are so many ways that they could take back Taiwan, either through like literal military force, or like Savannah was saying when we talked to her like..

Jesse Lin 28:02
Just crush them economically.

Angela Lin 28:03
Yeah, choking them financially. Yeah. And has that’s just fucking crazy. And I don’t know when it’s gonna happen that they’re gonna attempt right. The Hong Kong thing is scary, because it made it very real, like, hey, all you like semi sovereign, Chinese or, you know, related countries, you better like, wake up. So that was very scary. And like, my parents are still in Taiwan right now. So it’s, it’s just scary to me. Like, could it happen while they’re there? And like, I don’t know, what’s gonna happen. And so it’s just like, it’s a weird thing.

Jesse Lin 28:34
It is pretty, it is pretty crazy. I do want to I want to say that I think like the fact that it’s not attached to Taiwan gives it some strategic advantage, at least, although, you know, but of course, I have very much the same concerns. I mean, like, it’s very close. There’s 1 billion people in China and there’s like, 20 million people, 35 million people in Taiwan. So it’s like, not a contest. And I think we’ve seen in the past few years, there’s definitely a global political policy of appeasement rather than confrontation at action. And we saw this for I I brought this up before, I think we saw this when Russia annexed part of Crimea, people were like, no, that’s bad. Did they do anything about it? No.

Angela Lin 29:21
Going back to like being scared of China. Even though we’ve been like very openly talking about this, I am going to confess that I’m like, v-scared of this episode. And well, to be fair, we already talked about China in other episodes, like the Mulan episode and whatever, but I talked to my dad before because he was like, hey, you guys should like you guys should distribute your podcast in China. I’m like, are you fucking crazy? Like we’re gonna get thrown in jail immediately if we distribute in Chin.? And he was like, Yeah, but it’s a big market with like, a lot of like, really young Chinese people really like the US and want to like know what life is like in the US. So that’s fair. But I was like, I’m pretty sure they won’t care. And they want to, like, throw us in jail. And my dad said something interesting that I don’t know if I believe him. But he was like, oh, they only they only care if you’re speaking in Chinese. It’s like they only censor Chinese things

Jesse Lin 30:22
Interesting. Oh, they’re probably like those, those WaiGuoRen – they don’t count. They don’t count.

Angela Lin 30:27
Yeah, maybe? I hope not. But also we self identify as Taiwanese-American, which is already problematic. Yes. There’s so much gray area that I’m just like, I don’t know, anything could get you in trouble.

Jesse Lin 30:41
Oh, sure. And there’s definitely no guarantee that you could get out of trouble. I mean, like, I know, you were talking about like rich people leaving doesn’t mean you can’t be affected somehow by the state. Like, remember how Jack Ma just disappeared for like three weeks, recently, and was just recently seen?

Angela Lin 30:58
Is he alive?

Jesse Lin 31:00
I mean, supposedly.

Angela Lin 31:02
I didn’t hear about his re-emergence only about his disappearance.

Jesse Lin 31:05
There was like a picture of him circulated at some event or something like that. Yeah. So, all right, well, I guess we should move to the fortune cookie close, I think we wanted to pull out our crystal balls, our respective crystal balls, and discuss what we think will be the future of China as a country and how it will influence the world moving forward. You have a lot of thoughts on this. So I will let you open the floor.

Angela Lin 31:36
I think China is gonna take over, I don’t think it’s that – I think it’s a matter of time. Um, I don’t think it’s gonna be like anytime soon, and like, the next 10 years, or whatever, but maybe during while we’re still alive, like, they could pretty easily surpass the US, I think, because it’s the pace that it’s been growing, compared to where it was, like 20 years ago, or whatever, versus where it is now with the economy and like, the advancements in science and all that shit, like, it’s a matter of time. And I’m scared. That’s all.

Jesse Lin 32:12
Yeah, I’m interested. I’m very curious to see what will happen. I mean, to what you were saying earlier, Xi and like, Putin – they’re cult of personality leaders, and they draw a lot of power from that. But that’s a disadvantage for the party overall. Because once that person disappears, you lose a lot of power that’s tied to this cult to this person. So I think they will do a lot of really big thing, like Xi will probably be able to accomplish a lot of big things before he passes. But the fate of the country after his reign is over when he dies, you know, assuming that he will die, and won’t live on forever?

Angela Lin 32:57
Like frozen, cryo, whatever.

Jesse Lin 32:59
Yeah, like in Futurama. He’s just one of those, like talking president heads. It’s in question for me. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I feel like when you have a leader like that, and you lose a leader like that, the country is in a bit of a loss for a while, kind of like how Iraq was after we remove Saddam from power – as as horrible as he was it, he had it under control.

Angela Lin 33:23
Yeah, I guess you’re right. And to that, and maybe there’s maybe that’s hopeful, because the whole like hybrid capitalist society that they have is like, built on original Marxist socialism, where it was like, oh, you only need like markets, like a capitalist market, in the like, preliminary stages of socialism to like, get things moving. And then once you like, have production in place where like things are working well with the economy, then you like take it over. And then we get like a totally planned economy where you only produce things that like the people will use and like everything that the market creates is only like for the people. So like capitalist type markets are necessary in the beginning. So that was kind of how they like, justified it. But President Xi is like, nah, he apparently came out and was like, I’m not foreseeing a post, like socialist market era. So basically, he foresees like continuing on like this forever. And so when he’s gone, it’s probably pretty natural that it just like graduates into a fully capitalist. Yeah. And then once you have that, then people probably are like, hey, I want all my rights back. Like, maybe maybe in the future.

Jesse Lin 34:44
Yeah, I’m sure as as the world expands, as you’re saying as people are able to leave and travel and do different things and experience a different kind of life than where they are at. I’m sure that will change.

Angela Lin 34:56
I also want to plug one last caveat is just like you know, we’ve been shitting on a lot of stuff today, mostly me. But I do want to make a distinction because my dad said an interesting thing when we had him on, which was like, if if China was not communist Taiwanese, especially the young people, right? Because that’s mostly who’s opposing the unification, like young people wouldn’t care. They’d be like, okay, join China, you know, like, because if it’s a democracy, like I don’t care, yeah. And so I just want to make the distinction that like, the things that I’m shitting on, that we have collectively shat on is related to the way the government is run today, and not the history or the culture behind the country, because obviously, we are Chinese as well, right? In that respect, and like, we’ve talked about how much we love learning more about our culture and like embracing it more as we’re getting older. So we’re not condemning that part at all. It’s more just like the way shit is run right now is scary. And that’s all we’re saying.

Jesse Lin 36:06
Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, there’s so many amazing things in China. It’s the same way that I really want to go to Venezuela, but I’m not gonna go there. I’m gonna go fucking body snatched or some shit like that. So no, there is a wonderful, beautiful history. And obviously, it’s a huge country, there’s so many awesome things to see. So for sure, we’re in celebration of that. Not in celebration of the shadiness of the government.

Angela Lin 36:32
Yes, that’s right. Well, this was quite a controversial topic reminder that we are still looking for listener stories, submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com that you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. Yeah, tell us how we’re wrong. Tell us how we’re right. Tell us things you don’t know. I mean, it’s a very complex issue. So we’re open to learning more, so let us know.

Jesse Lin 37:02
And as always, come back and join us for another fresh new episode next Friday.

Angela Lin 0:23
Today we have a very special guest, my brother. That’s right. Want to introduce yourself to the listeners and tell them where you’re really from?

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Johnny 0:40
Well, I was actually born in Taiwan. Unlike Angela. Yeah. I grew up here though. So I moved here when I was six years old, a long, long time ago. And I grew up in Irvine, California, just like Angela. So yeah.

Angela Lin 0:58
Nice. And yeah, Jesse whispered this well, while I was introducing my brother, but let’s just set the record straight that Jesse and I are not related. And my real brother is now on this episode.

Johnny 1:57
Although many people think Jesse is part of our family.

Angela Lin 2:00
Yeah, it gets very confusing for people because we have the same last name and Jesse and Johnny. So it’s like two j names. So especially on social media, I feel like people get confused when they see like us interacting with each other.

Jesse Lin 2:15
Yeah, I also I feel like I’m in more of your like photos from recent because we were like, actually in this well, recently, in a few years ago when you were still in the city, but like we were actually in the same location for a while.

Angela Lin 2:29
Well, okay, so if you guys haven’t guessed today’s episode is all around the concept of siblings, and how growing up with a sibling or without a sibling kind of impacted our experiences growing up and like my brother and I are very different, you’ll probably see on this episode. So just getting down to kind of like, how, what contributed to that? And how do we see our identities differently or similarly. So one thing we wanted to first talk about is comparing and contrasting like, whether or not you had a sibling going up. So Jesse, what even though everyone thought you were my brother, you actually are an only child. So like, what was that like growing up? And do you always wish you had a sibling? Or were you like I’m chill, I’m the star?

Jesse Lin 3:24
Yeah, it is quite interesting. It’s a little hard to, it’s a little hard to say because I don’t, I don’t have a sibling, as you mentioned. So I don’t really know what the experience is like to necessarily have a sibling like you can see from the outside and you’re like, okay, it looks something like this. But you don’t really know. But I will say what I think the differences are, at least for me, I feel like I had a lot more pressure than my friends who had siblings, because you have, I will just say it in the most blunt way possible. Like your parents don’t have to put all their eggs in a basket. Basically, there are more baskets that they can eggs in. And so the pressure is more distributed in the sense even though we’ve talked about like, the firstborn usually carries like all of the pressure or if it’s a guy, it might, he might carry all the pressure. But I generally feel like my friends with more siblings, there was a little less pressure overall, because there’s more of you. And so, you know, if one of you fucks up, there’s still like a few more of you that your parents can put their stakes on. So number one, I felt like there’s a lot more pressure. Number two, I definitely there are points of my childhood growing up where I felt really lonely because I didn’t really have anyone to share the pressures or expectation or things that my parents were telling me that I had to live up to or do with. So from that perspective it was a little bit lonely sometimes because it just felt like I couldn’t, I couldn’t find anybody who would understand the situation that I was in at the time in terms of how I was feeling and reacting to the pressures and stuff. And the last one I will say is the good one is that now that I look back on it, I feel really blessed in a way to I’ve been an only child because now I understand kind of the financial situation that my parents had been in and like are still in and just thinking about having another sibling that would have been quite impossible from from the money standpoint, and it would have made everything like 50 million times harder. So I am really glad from that perspective, like not to have to split anything with anyone. Yeah.

Angela Lin 5:53
Interesting. And, okay, well, first of all, I feel weird, because every time I want to say my brother’s name, so his name is Johnny, but my parents like can’t pronounce that. So his, the way we pronounce it at home is like Joan-ney, like, Joan, with like, Joanie. Joanie? Joanie. Yeah. Anyways, Joanie. Um, so I’m gonna ask you, because I feel like so. So for those who don’t know, he’s seven years older than me. So we are siblings, I’m the younger, but that’s a huge age gap. So like, you were the only child for a long time. And like you said, you were you were six, when you moved to the USA, like your entire time in Taiwan, you were an only child, right? Until our parents had me. So what was that? Like? Like? Did you were you like, fuck this? I have to share attention now with like a younger sibling, or what was that? Like, when you suddenly had like, another person you had to share the spotlight with?

Johnny 7:04
I mean, honestly, I was very young when, you know, I was seven years old. Yeah, you know, you were born. And so I didn’t remember, like, half my life before that, really, you know, I didn’t have any real memories of Taiwan until I was like, five, four or five, actually. So in terms of remembering Taiwan, I only remember like two years of it. And honestly, having you was actually exciting, because it was kind of lonely. Like we we moved here without any friends. But I thought it was kind of interesting having you like, you know, because it was like, you know, a new thing. I don’t think I was like the jealous little brother. Because, like, I don’t think my our mom gave us any attention. And like, she doesn’t really play favorites. I realized, like, our mothers I think so like, I feel like she does it. And so she never like doted me. And then, like, when you came, she started paying all the attention to her. Uh you I mean, so I don’t really feel like it was different. And actually just, it was more exciting to me to have like a little sister.

Angela Lin 8:20
That’s funny. Nice. What about so I mean, this podcast is all about our kind of, like, mixed identities, right? Because we’re both were both Taiwanese and American. But your experience is very different than well, not very different. But it’s different than mine. because like you said, you were born in Taiwan. You actually grew up partially there and you do have some memories. It’s not like it’s like deep deep memories, but you have memories of being raised there and then actually having moved to the US versus like us is all I know we’ve visited Taiwan for sure, but like I never lived there. And I feel like I remember you telling the stories of like having a hard time assimilating…

Johnny 9:09
Oh yeah.

Angela Lin 9:09
What was that like when you first you know, moved here and like started going to school here and like, people made fun of you or like, what was that like?

Johnny 9:18
Okay, so we started first grade in Cerritos and it was like a mainstream school so basically, it was just the typical public school elementary school and then I didn’t know any English I could barely say ABC without I said ABC with an accent. And so everything was like foreign to me. And I just remember being my my, I don’t I don’t remember but mom kind of said that I was bullied by like, apparently these Korean this Korean boy or something

Angela Lin 9:51
What the hell is that I hate that. It’s like other Asian people.

Johnny 9:55
And I was crying and I wasn’t having fun. So apparently, they knew someone who, who knew about this bilingual school. So it was this teacher from Taiwan who also spoke English. And then basically it was pretty rare back then. But it was like an immersion school. And in Cerritos they had a bilingual immersion school Chinese English, so they would teach half the class in English and half the class in Chinese. And so they pulled me out of the mainstream school, and then they put me in this immersion school, and I have the best time of my life. At least my little life then it was like, I made so many friends. And like, I just, I remember having like a lot of friends and like everyone’s, you know, I could identify with because they were speaking both Chinese and English. So it was and I picked up English so quickly, like I was almost fluent, by the year end. Yeah. And like, I remember hearing myself like in recordings, like it was so different, like my English. And then. But unfortunately, we moved to Irvine, so I didn’t really get to, but I was there for a year. And it was actually a really good experience. So having that bilingual immersion school, that really changed, like, my feeling towards coming here, because I think I was miserable the first month or so. So after I moved to Irvine, they integrated me back into mainstream elementary school, but they would pull me out for an hour a day, to go to ESL, and so just an hour a day, and then I was with like five other ESL kids, like I remember, one was like Hispanic, and I don’t remember the people there that well. But it was just, you know, a little additional training beyond the mainstream. But I didn’t go to an immersion school after that. And then I was an ESL for maybe three more years after that until fifth grade. And then I moved out of ESL.

Angela Lin 11:56
And I feel like so well, what was that like still learning English? And also because like, you’re saying that was only one hour a day once you were back in just normal public school? So like, how was integrating into the rest of the classroom with people that, you know, were native English speakers? Did they like, welcome you? Did it feel hard to make friends with them? Like, what was that experience like?

Johnny 12:24
I feel like, after my year in the immersion program, I was near fluent. And then when I moved to Irvine, back then Irvine wasn’t as like diverse as it was today. I think, well, early 90s. But basically, it was just the Asian population wasn’t as big. So I was one of the few Asians in my class, actually in Irvine. And I just remember being made fun of like, for my nose, and like my eyes, like, actually, kids would tease me and stuff for that. So I was still bullied. But mainly not for my English, but mainly for my Asian appearance. And I, and I just remember, I was closer to, you know, someone from like, a Hispanic background. I remember, like, a kid that was Hispanic that I made friends with or like Persian, I didn’t identify as well with like, the Caucasian Americans and in my class, because they were the ones making fun of me. Yeah, so it was more that than my English.

Angela Lin 13:30
See this, I remember you telling me this and not like me, and not really understanding that because it feels like our age gap is a significant number of years. But it’s not like we’re a different generation, right? Like, we’re not that far apart. So then when I think back on my childhood, I definitely, to your point, Irvine has changed a lot since we were kids. So like now it’s probably like, I don’t know, 60/40 Asian people to white people or other other races. But back then, at least when Jesse and I were growing up, it was probably more like, the reverse, right? Like, I don’t know, 40% Asian or something. But I definitely wasn’t like the only Asian kid in my class. And it didn’t feel like I was so different from other people. So when you told me those experiences of getting bullied for how you looked, I was like, I don’t even I don’t even get that because I never had that experience. But it must have been so hard. Because you went from especially coming from a country where everyone looks like you, like has similar features. And then suddenly being told your features are like weird.

Johnny 14:43
Kids would make fun of you because they realized I looked more like an immigrant you’re gonna like look more like a FOB. Like basically my clothes look like a FOB and I kind of spoke maybe with a little accent. So I think I you know, was a little bit different from other Asian Americans that grew up. Yeah. But that was basically before middle school. Yeah. And then I just remember, you know, even kids were like, I remember. Okay, so I was getting the mail once for mom, for mom. And then these neighborhood kids would come. And they’re like, oh, look at your shorts. And then they’d actually pull my shorts down, and I started crying. I was like, yeah

Angela Lin 15:23
What a kid stereotype thing to do.

Johnny 15:27
Yeah. So. And it was, it was interesting, because I didn’t, I didn’t like, see a difference between like, Asians who made fun of me and like non-Asians, like, I treated them both equally, like, but in the end, I feel like, you know, I identified more with the Asian kids in the class. Yeah, who were Asian and non non non white, like the Hispanic or the Persian. Yeah. So a lot of my friends were non white, growing up,

Jesse Lin 15:58
I also kind of feel like maybe our experience like, Angela, your and I’s is a little bit different. Because we, we did, we were born here. So my perspective on it, like, as far as I can remember, as a kid is that like, you go to preschool, then you go to kindergarten, but for the most part, if you stay in this school year, in the same, you’re with the same cohort of people, more or less, so you, it’s less the same experiences you because we’re coming in at a period where kids aren’t as mean, you know, they’re younger, they’re less exclusionary. And they’re more like, cuz I remember when I went to pre0school, I didn’t know any English, but I still had a blast, not being able to say anything to anybody. So I feel like being here, and having that made it, made us experience a little less of the bullying because we are we were part of a cohort of people that were growing through the different grades. So it’s like less easy to pick us out and single us out because we had been there from the beginning, essentially.

Johnny 17:02
But Jesse, that’s a good point. Because actually, we moved around a lot. Like we probably moved like eight to 10 times on our, you know, life. So I don’t know why, but like, my parents like to move. So. And actually, if you remember, our cousins lived with us, too. Yeah, yeah. So like, we have two cousins that lived with us. And so we had a big house. And then when they moved to college, we moved again. We had we bought a house, but we sold it because to make profit off of that house. We’ve moved a lot and so I didn’t really have like a stable, like, educational experience. I think for you Angela, though, like it was better because maybe a lot of the moving was done before you really started school.

Angela Lin 17:52
Yeah, it wasn’t too bad. I remember crying about it once. And it was because the move I – the only one I remember is from like kindergarten to first grade. We we changed like the school, not the school district because it was all the Irvine School District. But like, the way it worked was depending on which neighborhood you lived in, you went to a certain elementary school or whatever. So to Jesse’s point, like I had already had this cohort built up from kindergarten, I had like my best friend who was a Japanese American girl. And I was like, I’m stoked to continue with these friends. And then, and then our parents were like, we’re moving and now you’re gonna go to a different elementary school than them and I was like, no, so that’s the only one I remember. Okay, well, let’s also talk about like, I already hinted at that Jesse and I rejected our Asianness growing up. I’m curious what that experience was like for you, because you literally came from Asia. And I’m sure there was part of you that was, you know, you’re trying to immerse as much as possible so that the bullying would stop. But did you ever feel like you wanted to reject that part of you? Or were you just like, I’m just trying to figure out how to be both and like, I’m proud to be Taiwanese.

Johnny 19:07
I, I’m a little different from you two, because I actually really embraced my Asian culture. Like, I was proud of the fact that I could speak both Chinese and English. And like, when I went to a Chinese environment, I felt comfortable like Chinese school, I’d love Chinese school, you know, and then we would go back to Taiwan every summer I loved going back to Taiwan, because I felt like I was like popular and I was like, people like got me when I was in an Asian environment like and I understood them, like I identified more as an Asian person than as an American. Because I was made fun of when I was in American school and teased and so when I went back to Asia, I felt like I was the popular kid, like everyone wanted to know, oh, it’s the American. They thought of me as an American. Oh the Americans back and he can like, tell us about America. I felt you know, more comfortable and integrated in an Asian environment. I think that being like, bilingual really helps. And, you know, being able to speak Chinese. And so, for me, I did not reject my Asian culture at all, like I, I loved Asian culture, like I wanted to, you know, listen some more like Chinese pop music,

Angela Lin 20:23
Oh you loved Jay Chou

Unknown Speaker 20:25
And Jolin Tsai, like every one of those people. And like, I embraced it, like I loved Asian food I loved, you know, Asian culture. But speaking to like, my Chinese or Taiwanese friend, they’re like, oh, no, you don’t want to grow up in Taiwan. Like, as a kid, it’s very stressful, it’s very, you know, like high pressure. So in a way, it’s like, maybe I got the best of both worlds by, you know, being bilingual and being able to, you know, speak Chinese, but also growing up in America, because I didn’t have to go through all that, you know, pressure of growing up as a kid and in Asia, and so forth. But for me, like I embraced Asian culture, I almost preferred being a FOB.

Angela Lin 21:09
Well, let’s dig into a couple other ways that your experience was different than mine, or Jesse’s. One big difference is that you were the older the oldest child, and we all know and a boy. So we all know that in many Asian cultures, being the son, or like, the eldest son has like different connotations, and being either a younger son or like younger daughter, or you know, a different sibling, because there’s expectations that come with that, like you’re supposed to carry on the family name, and like the pride and the legacy of the Lin family or whatever. So did any of that feel like how much of that pressure did you feel growing up? And, and how did that affect you?

Unknown Speaker 22:00
Well, as a kid, I didn’t know any of that. Like, our parents didn’t really emphasize, you know, that as we growing up. But it was more when I became an adult. And I just remember the time, when I came out as being gay. That was the time when I realized she had all these internal feelings about carrying on the lineage. Because when I came out, and Angela helped me with that, but basically, she told me, like, you know, that this is the end of our lineage, like, if I don’t have kids, and I can’t have a wife and family. And she said, You know, we’re gonna be a disgrace to our ancestors, who expect us to carry on that lineage. So before that, I didn’t know any of that. And this came out, basically, you know, all her feelings about that came out when I came out. So that was the only time I realized that that mattered to her. Yeah. And before that, though, she never mentioned anything about that.

Jesse Lin 23:11
Well, let’s talk about like, the difference in, like family size between, like our families, and like, what are parents families look like? Because I definitely feel like it’s very different. And there is some, let’s say, bent that it puts on our parents in terms of thinking about how to plan for the future, and like passing along the family name, and all of that, it’s easier when you have more kids, because when you have like few fucked up kids, you still have like, a few more that you can, like, move along. And I feel like our parents still have that idea that they can do that. But they have less kids to do that with. So then it becomes like this intense pressure on you to do all these things that they were also pressured to do, but maybe was actually less pressure, because there are more of them to distribute that responsibility against like, my, my mom has four, four or five sisters, and a brother. And my dad has three brothers, and one sister, and us, we there’s two of you, and one of me. So it’s like a very, the size of the family. And like how many fuck ups a family fuck ups, quote, unquote, a family can survive is much smaller. So I definitely feel like you know, I’m kicking off I feel like there’s there’s definitely some of that pressure that’s just like this mindset that they’re trying to apply here. But there’s like fewer kids to apply to.

Angela Lin 24:44
Yeah, I feel like our parents generation that average size family was somewhere between like five to seven kids, which is a shit ton of kids because yeah, both of our parents sides are also around that size. And I feel like I agree with you that there’s less pressure on each individual kid when you have to, like spread it across so many kids, and you’re just trying to like, make sure they survive, right, you’re like, let me just like have enough money to, and like work hard enough so that they can live. Where I feel like, it’s not totally fair to say they didn’t have like, any pressure going up, because I feel like they had totally different pressures, like a big reason, not just Asian people. But like that whole generation used to have a shit ton of kids is because those kids would be expected to help raise the younger kids and like, earn money for the family. And my mom always talks about how she used to, like sell vegetables in the, in the market with our grandma and stuff, because it was like she do that during the day or night or something and then go to school at night, or vice versa. But she had to, like do both. And how lucky my brother and I are that like we don’t have to do have such hardship to just live. And so they had like, different pressures. It wasn’t like, you have to become a doctor. It’s like, hey, you’re in this family, you’re earning money for our family so that we can all like live.

Johnny 26:13
I think it’s what Jesse says is true. But it is the transitional phase right now in terms of Chinese culture or Taiwanese culture. Definitely, our parents kind of were stuck in between, like they were the first generation I think, that kind of saw the future. Like, before that Chinese culture was very traditional, like, you would you wouldn’t even have heard of anyone not getting married, and having kids. They’re the first generation where they themselves may not have kids or have only one or two. So I think our parents live in a very interesting time in terms of the generational bridge between conservative Asian culture and liberal Asian culture. And I think that puts them into a very interesting struggle, because they’re trying to juggle what their their upbringing is, but then living in the reality that that Chinese and Taiwanese society has changed, you know. And so I think they know that, like, they know how to admit the truth that, you know, we’re currently living in an era where people may not have kids anymore. So definitely, in the generation that we’re in now, it’s almost expected that you only have one or two.

Angela Lin 27:36
I remember. Like, our parents didn’t share much about their upbringing to us, but there were like, little morsels they would share with us because we like pryed it out of them like, oh, when did you and dad meet like, when did you get married? Did you date people before that? You know, we were trying to pry a little bit about this. And I remember our mom saying that my dad is was her only boyfriend. They met when she was 27 or something…

Johnny 28:03
She was 27 he was 30.

Angela Lin 28:05
Yeah. And then and then they got married. So like, I remember when I turned 27. I was like, Fuck, should I be married right now? Like…

Johnny 28:13
And that was considered old in mom’s era.

Angela Lin 28:16
Yes. Yeah, so yeah, I feel like I agree with you that like there, it was weirder for their generation to not already be married and popped out like many kids, by early mid 20s, than it is for us where they, they kind of like rationalize it for us now. They’re like, oh, you’re still in school, you’re like, focus on your career. They’re not so pushy about that.

Johnny 28:47
And I think also growing. I mean, like moving here to the US, you know, exposes them to more liberal mindset, too. So actually, I think in terms of my parents are our parents, at least, they don’t give us any pressure really to have kids. It’s just kind of more subtle, like, subliminal, like, for example, like our dad, we didn’t really talk about our dad, but basically, like, whenever he sees little kids, his face like lights up. I’ve never seen him so happy. Yeah.

Angela Lin 29:20
It’s very like pedo TBH. I’ve told him he needs to stop. Like he gets so giddy when he sees little baby around him. Or toddlers. So he was like, staring at this child he doesn’t know. And like smiling uncontrollably and staring at the child. I was like, Dad, you are like an older man staring at a child that you don’t know.

Johnny 29:45
You know, he never smiles. So the fact that he’s smiling. And then when I asked him like, do you want a grandson or granddaughter? He’s like, Of course I do. Yeah. So it’s it’s more ingrained. It’s not like the give us pressure though.

Angela Lin 29:58
I think there’s also like phases. Because I’m like, I was supposed to get married this year, and you know, it’s pushed but or last year, time doesn’t mean anything. Anyways. And so they haven’t like pushed that on me outright. But Karen, Jesse and my other best friend, she has been married for how many years? I don’t know, like three or four years. And he constantly asks me if she is having a baby anytime soon. Like, I feel like he just latches on to like the scenario. He thinks it’s okay to ask that thing. And it’s kind of like, subliminal. Oh, yes, exactly. Like, Oh, well, you know, I’m asking about her. But really, I’m asking about you too.

Johnny 30:44
I mean, now that they know I’m gay, I mean, you’re the kind of burden now that has to carry for it the Lin family name, even though it’s not going to be the Lin family anymore.

Jesse Lin 30:54
Well, thanks for this conversation, we’re going to transition over to our closing section, which we call the Fortune Cookie. And for the Fortune Cookie, we’re going to have an open season on Angela where we recount the most embarrassing moments of her life to everybody that listen to this podcast.

Johnny 31:14
Okay, let’s make a fun. So, um, if you remember, you’re actually very into Taiwanese drama. Like you loved F4 and you’re like obsessed with them. Like Vaness and what’s the other one? Like?

Angela Lin 31:30
Well I gave them all equal opportunity? But I over-skewed on Vaness?

Johnny 31:35
Yes. And you actually that was why I was surprised when like you started like saying you didn’t like Asian culture because you were very Asian in like middle school.

Angela Lin 31:47
Yeah, it was a two year concentrated Blip. Really Chinese.

Johnny 31:54
You were like super Chinese or Asian and you loved Meteor Garden. You were like singing all their songs.

Angela Lin 32:02
I still remember at least 50% of the lyrics.

Jesse Lin 32:06
Oh my gosh. What’s embarrassing?

Angela Lin 32:13
Most things about our upbringing, but…

Jesse Lin 32:16
Yeah, I there are like so many different moments but I will just say like the period from like middle school to high school was like an excruciating needs to delete. It was like, like, extremely layered hair and like cowlick like the emo girl hair I had.

Angela Lin 32:41
It was it wasn’t it was a permanent cowlick. Grass looking thing at the top of my head.

Jesse Lin 32:49
I guess it’s not a cowlick because the cowlick is like not intentional. But you had you had it like intentionally like that. And oh, girl, that was a look.

Angela Lin 32:58
Well, okay, you got your hands on. You used it. So no more chances now closed. All right. Well, we had a lot of fun talking to you about so many things. So thank you for joining us on this sibling episode. For you listeners if you have a question for my brother, or you liked a certain topic that we got into because I think we talked about a lot actually a lot more than we even thought we’ve talked about. If you have a opinion..

Johnny 33:30
Or if you want to know any secrets about Angela.

Jesse Lin 33:32
Oh, yeah.

Angela Lin 33:34
We’ll see. We’ll see about that. I screen all the emails. But anyways, if you have opinions or feedback or questions you can write us in at Telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E and reminder that we are still looking for listener story submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want.

Jesse Lin 33:56
And come back next week for another episode.

Jesse Lin 0:26
This week, we have two special guests to help us discuss the amazing things that they are doing to help bring businesses in Chinatown, up to the digital floor? Digital bar? And basically make the businesses survive through this really difficult time. So I welcome Jackie, and Harry to join us this week and talk about all these amazing initiatives and work that they’re doing on behalf of these Chinatown businesses.

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Angela Lin 0:58
And technically they’re part of the organization called Welcome to Chinatown for those that are familiar.

Jesse Lin 1:04
Yes. And actually, I found out about you guys, and I was really interested in to talk to you guys on our podcast, because I saw an article on Gothamist, about how young Chinese people were basically pitching in to help family businesses like trying to digitize some elements of it so that business could survive all this crazy situation posed by COVID. And I guess since then it’s grown, it had been pretty big previously, and it’s just grown even larger now. So we’d love to hear, you know, just more from you guys about what you guys are doing and how you’re helping to support these businesses.

Harry 1:44
Well, thanks for having us on, it really means a lot to us. It’s really humbling, because, essentially, I mean, I feel like we just started yesterday. So welcome to Chinatown was founded, essentially with our two founders, Jen and Vic. So both of them live in Chinatown, lived there for about 10 years. And they’ve just, you know, they’re really similar to a lot of us where they would go to the stores, buy their groceries hang out there, but then really didn’t get to know a lot of the people there, especially a lot of the stories from like, you know, people that have been there for generations, because they’re more of just like, as a younger generation, a lot of us worked in just like corporate spaces, so we didn’t really get a lot of chances to interact with the people that much until really when COVID hit last Lunar New Year, and then they realized that like, hey, like, they, they realized that with with this is happening like this is might be the end of Chinatown unless we do something about it.

Jackie 2:43
Yeah. And then I just want to take a moment to sort of brag and hype up Harry. So he’s sort of like the design and creative head of Welcome to Chinatown. And, I mean, that’s sort of like one of the reasons that I reached out and one of like, the many things that I saw that I was like, what what these people are doing is so cool. Um, and so I’m Jackie, by the way for people listening, hello. So I am a project manager on the team. And I started just like, help out with any projects we have, you know, contacting the businesses and just sort of like being that little bridge between what we’re working on and what the businesses need, and sort of what their current struggles are. But yeah, and then I basically just like DMed thinking it was this, like, massive team, you know, on the ground in New York, and wasn’t even sure if they were going to get back to me and I quickly heard back from one of the founders, Vic was like, yes, will will like it will take your help. Anyway, anything you can do to support I was like, that sounds great. I’ll do whatever. And the kind of quickly learned that it was just like, you know, pretty scrappy group of volunteers. A lot of Asian Americans who saw a need probably were feeling pretty helpless, not knowing really, you know, where to support and obviously feeling this just like deeper connection to Chinatown and the people who are really struggling. So yeah, that’s kind of how I got involved.

Angela Lin 4:47
Circling back because we we actually usually ask our guests like the same question every time which is essentially our podcast name because it’s omething you know, we as Asian Americans get asked all our lives and like, usually not with the greatest intentions. So we’d like to ask it because it’s kind of your way to take it back and you know, answer it the way you would actually want to represent yourself. And I’m curious if your answer has anything to do with like you what, you know, drew you to want to work with an organization that is dedicated to saving our communities, essentially. So where are you both really from?

Jackie 5:36
First of all, whenever I get this question, I always wish I could have like, like a clap back or like, I need to like remember a line that’s like, boom, like, now you feel bad. But I unfortunately, don’t have an answer like that. I think I’ve usually just like mumble something awkward. And I think I think part of it is like, I don’t want to give them the satisfaction of being like, oh, my parents are from China. I don’t want to say that even though that’s like totally part of my story. You know, that’s like, I think that’s part of who I am. I just don’t want to give them the satisfaction of saying that. So I kind of work around that. But you know, I was born here and grew up here. I was born in well, I was born in Maryland, but I basically from like age 1.5 on was in New Jersey. And had a pretty I think, like, standard suburban upbringing. I was in like a predominantly white, but like, I think our town probably when I graduated was close to like 20% Asian, so sort of somewhat balanced in a way. And then I went to school in New York. And that’s sort of where I’ve been mostly for the past, I guess, like seven years by now. But yeah, I think it’s hard because I want to be like, I’m from New York, I want to say from New Jersey. And then I also think, you know, the part of the person who like went to China every summer and who has like immigrant parents, it’s totally part of who I am, too. So, I mean, like, I also really am from China. I just don’t want to say that to like, you know, the white guy who stops me. Yeah, I’m sure you guys. It’s like a very conflicting question. I have a friend who is like, also she’s Korean American, and she’s really good at just being like, whenever people come at me I need to learn to be more like that.

Harry 7:26
Oh, wait, oh, my God, Jackie, you took basically I have the same, like, kind of like, like chain of thoughts every single time someone asked me that. And he’ll be like, um, what? I don’t know, I’m from here. Like, exactly. I wish I had a really nice clap back. But I grew up. I was born in Richmond, Virginia. And then my mom’s family was all in 626. So I would go back and forth. So that was my version of going back to the motherland. Which is the funniest crap I’ve like, I’ve tried to tell people I remember when I was in grade school in Virginia, and then all my white friends would be like, Oh my god, you get to go to LA every year. Like, do you get to go to like Hollywood? I’m like, no, I’m just like, we’re this, you know, chillin in the valley. Like, not like, I vividly remember that. Like, I would have to, like, make up stories for like, my white friends to get to be like, oh, my God, I must be so glamorous there. And like, you must have seen a celebrity. I’m like, no, like, I’m like, I live in my grandma’s house. And like, we take the bus and we like bus it into Chinatown, LA. And then like, just like, you know, like, we just like, hang out and like, just, just like, be ourselves. But yeah, I totally get it. Like, you know, I moved to New York City, after a few moves around, like, to OC and then I live in DC for a little bit and Baltimore. So like, yeah, I totally get that I like I wish I had a clap back.

Angela Lin 9:04
First of all, Harry, we’re from Irvine. So holla we get that 626. But you brought up an interesting point that I wanted to talk about with your work with Welcome to Chinatown, which is that you don’t speak Mandarin. So you know, how has the organization navigated working with these businesses? With the language barrier, I guess?

Harry 9:27
Yeah, I mean, like, for me, so. So the design team, we make all the merchandise for our small businesses that we represent that want to collaborate with us. And that’s, I have to talk through it and the design process. So like, I’m like thinking in my head, I’m like, okay, how do I talk, design speak in Cantonese. I don’t know the vocabulary as well. So it’s, I think when it comes down to it when people realize that like how earnest your your intentions are, that just comes through very well like, yes, there will be language barriers of like, you know, vocabulary, like just very basic things of just like there’s little details they, we just can’t translate back to them. But I think when it comes down to like the holistic picture, they do understand like, oh, these are just a bunch of people that just want to help. And I think that that comes off, like very true. And that’s also true with like all the other organizations that also popped up in Chinatown, like most of us, like, we were very lucky that we have a few translators. I think one of them is actually an aunt. Really, they’re like, Hey, what’s up like Allie’s aunt? Can you translate this for me? So that’s, that’s part of it. But no, I think they, the businesses are actually are really willing to work through our language barriers, because they know that they see the work that we put into, and also I think, funny enough, like a Chinese news outlet called World Journal has picked us up occasionally. So like when they see it on that..

Angela Lin 11:05
Wait wait wait, that is the shit my mom made me go into the bakery every week and pay quarter for my whole childhood. That’s huge, it’s like a big one for the Chinese community.

Harry 11:22
Yeah, so they, so I think with that, and then also, me and Vic, got hit up. It’s actually really embarrassing by KBB, to do to be part of a special and like, we were, like, asked to speak in Cantonese. And we’re just like oh no, we’re like, we don’t know the right vocabulary. But I think those are some of the kind of like, the PR things that also solidified that, like, they understand our message, because there is other organizations that are translating for us.

Jackie 11:52
Yeah, we definitely. I mean, we have some like awesome translators. I think a lot of the people in the group are sort of like Harry and I, who like, could definitely speak a little bit of whatever language our parents spoke, but definitely not enough to, like convey what the initiative is. Yeah, so we have an amazing team of translators, one of our volunteers that’s also like, part, translator, but also sort of like, takes what we’re doing and puts it on WeChat, which, you know, just reaches like a whole new audience. You know, Instagram has been great for sort of like a specific audience here. And then that’s just like a whole new beast. But something else that I’ve sort of learned and just like our work with the different business owners is that, I mean, number one thing we’re doing is listening, right? We’re not really just like, presenting them a prescription of like, Hello, here’s how we think you should fix your business.

Unknown Speaker 12:40
Something I want to talk about because I think all of us on this call have a connection to New York in some way. Like, I don’t currently live there by live there for seven years. Now, I’m like, how many years, seven years before I left, so I definitely have, you know, a kinship to it. But I feel like there is a bigger thing attached to the movement that you guys are part of, even for people that aren’t from New York or have never been to New York, like, I read something that like, well, Awkwafina is for sure, you know, New York born and raised, she has strong pride for Queens and all that, but I read an article about how she donated to your organization and other organizations at kind of like the peak of the anti Asian racism during COVID. And I read that article and thinking like, this is so interesting, because this, you know, helping your organization, other organizations like it are is like a tangible way, I think you said this at the top too, but like a tangible way for people to feel like there’s a solid thing they can do to combat the shittiness that’s, you know, happening to our community during this time. And like, I in doing some research ahead of our call with you today, I was really reminded of that horrible incident of that, like ninety year old grandma who got lit on fire, you know, for by a stranger walking by her. And there are so many incidents like that, that happened during this time and like continued to happen, I’m sure that are unreported. And I immediately was like, okay, I’m doing donating a bunch of money to you guys right now. Because I felt like oh, this is something I can do to you know, feel like I’m helping in some way even if it’s more symbolic, because I’m not in New York and I you know, I can’t like patron these restaurants or anything but I am trying to give back and I feel like people can resonate with that, even if they’re not in New York. Have you had like, people reach out to you that are outside New York or don’t even have affiliation to and are just like connected to it in that way.

Harry 14:48
On a like a back end side. So like we so with our store, we run it through an e-commerce platform, so we actually see where all the things are getting shipped. So there’s place there’s, there’s a bunch of people that are just like in Middle America, just like living their life there, and they still are buying all this merchandise that we’re selling. And I think it’s exactly what you said, Angela it’s just like, oh, like, I can’t, I can’t go to this restaurant and like buy a meal there. But like, I can buy a piece of merchandise that I know that represents them. And then I can rep them when I go, you know, grocery shopping socially distanced, and then I also know the money is going back to them.

Jackie 15:28
Yeah. And I want to circle back to what you said, Angela. And I just want to say that like your donation is like not symbolic at all. Like, it’s these donations that really like took our organizations to like what it is now it’s all of these people from all over the country kind of feeling some kind of connection to these stories they’re hearing, whether they’re Asian American or not. And like, that’s how we’ve been able to really help these businesses. You know, even in the beginning of probably around March, when people were sort of going back home or leaving New York, even if temporarily, I think a lot of the stuff that we are, you know, are made in Chinatown merch, people sort of felt that it was like a connection back to New York, I think. So we had a lot of people messaging me being like, oh my god, I used to go here, like five years ago, when I lived in New York, like Jin Fong is my favorite place ever. Like I I’m so excited to like, rep this in what wherever they’ve moved on to, um, and I think it’s like, I mean, that’s another reason why it’s so important to like, keep Chinatown open forever. These places have like such an important place in people’s hearts and people’s like experiences in New York City. I think it’s like, I mean, Chinatown is just like such quintessential New York City, right? It’s like one of the key things you think first.

Jesse Lin 16:39
Part of the reason that I think people visit and why people love living here is that you, you turn, you turn the page on the book, and you find something new. And even in the same neighborhoods that you’re in, let’s say Chinatown, like stuff is changing all the time. So you turn the page again, and it’s something different. So I feel like preserving these businesses is basically like paramount to saving what makes New York special, which is that you walk out the door, and you never know what you’re gonna find. And that’s part of the magic.

Harry 17:12
Totally agree, like. So when I was growing up in Virginia, everywhere we went, we only went to Chinatowns. It was hilarious, like so. So we would go up and down the East Coast. So we went to Philadelphia, DC. And then like Manhattan, and then we also went to Flushing. And then one time we went to Boston, and then every single time we stopped was in Chinatown. Like we never would go outside of Chinatown. It was always there. Like that hotel was there. And then like my dad will have a friendly friend there so it’s just like we never, we never left the bubble. When I was in LA. I was like in LA Chinatown or in Monterey Park. So it’s like, I never left the bubble. It was really funny. But no, I agree. Like, when I was, and when I was living in OC, for a year, when I started a different job there. I realized that like, you know, there are like, unfortunately, like there, there is a community of small businesses that make it so lively. But like, you know, when you’re living in suburbia, you are going to big box stores, you’re going to like you know, the Walmart’s the targets the Home Depot’s, CVSs, we all go to these places. But then when you live in Manhattan, or you live in a metropolitan city, like you get this opportunity to, like go to these small little shops. And like they have like a different variety of things. They like everything they choose us with so much intention. And it’s not based on any type of metric, or any type of like number that they crunched out. Maybe it is in later years. But like really they choose it because they’re like, oh, I know this is good quality. And like I would give this to my family. So I’m going to sell it out like I live in the Upper West Side. And we because of endemic like you know, we don’t we actually don’t go to Trader Joe’s anymore because like low key the Trader Joe’s here is like a cesspool. So we actually go to this cute little gross Italian grocery store. And we’ve gotten to know that this family and they’re so cute. They bicker with each other. There’s a cat named Oliver. But then also, they sell these really specific Italian like, ingredients like they have this like certain type of like tomato sauce that like I had. No, I had no idea what it was and they’ll tell me how to cook it. And they’re like sometimes the mom will come and, she’s like, buy this artichoke and chop it in half and do this with it. And then this is what I would eat for dinner tonight. I was like, what,tYou’re so cute. And this is happening and also like, in like small businesses in Chinatown too. Like every time I go into like, the Vietnamese grocery store, like ask them like so I’m Chinese-Vietnamese and then ask them like hey, how do you make like, you know, like mei wang or something and then like to be like, oh, like get this brand because like I like this one and then get this thing because I eat this one. I’m like, okay where you just don’t get that type of camaraderie and that type of like community when you’re like, at a Target, or like at a Walmart, maybe in Trader Joe’s, but like, you know, definitely not in a Target.

Jackie 20:09
And it’s also like where your money goes, right? I feel like when you shop at Target, I don’t even know the like levels that our money goes to before it gets to like the end maker or the owner, you know, and with this, you kind of feel like, at least maybe there’s still a few more loopholes that the money goes through. But it’s like, far less than that. I always feel better being like, okay, well, I’m not support, I don’t even know what I’m supporting when I’m at CVS, you know? So…

Angela Lin 20:34
One question that I want to make sure we cover off of because Jesse mentioned at the beginning is like the digitization of Chinatown as part of what you guys do, right, like barely scratching the surface. But one of the things, because one thing that I always think of when from thinking back on my time in Chinatown is like, okay, I better hit the ATM. Everything’s cash based, or like, there’s like one spot that takes credit card. So how’s that going? And will I be able to Venmo people the next I go to Chinatown?

Harry 21:06
Oh, well, actually, I think not even from us, like not from the parts of us. It’s happening organically. And attempt, businesses are getting onto delivery platforms, they are going on to Venmo, they’re selling online. So just organically without the powers of us or us adjusting us. Like it’s already happening. I think the one thing that we realized that, in the beginning is that so just Jackie, you actually said it like what we do, one of our core pillars is that like we listen first before we like, you know, blurt out a bunch of stuff. And actually one of the things was just like, you know, at that point in their life during COVID, they can’t mentally have the bandwidth to be like, okay, let me figure out a POS system and figure out how to do how to onboard credit card machine how to get internet. So actually, we, we just we open up the idea, we open up the conversation, we tell them like, oh, these are possibilities for you. But like, we’re not going to push on you. That being said, like, now like a year later, there is a lot more credit cards, which I personally like, there’s actually and then my favorite tea shop Son’s Organic Art, she does Venmo now because she sells on Instagram. So it is it is progressing. And I think it’s more of just like letting them take it at their own pace, but also like still presenting the idea. And then letting them know that it is a viable idea. Because most of it is like I think a lot of us suffer with this too is that like, if we’re just kind of like talking about ideas in our own circle, or just internally, we don’t know if it’s right or wrong, or we don’t know, we should do it. Because we’re like, well, no one else set us said to do it. So it might be wrong. It might be a bad investment. But you know, if there’s other people kind of suggesting, hey, this might be a consideration. You know, it’ll push them over a little bit. And they’re like, oh, maybe we’ll do it. But I have heard, like, I don’t know too much about credit card systems. But like, you know, if you don’t make a certain like x number sales or certain percentage of sales, like you end up losing money. So like that’s, that’s their fear is that like, if there’s not enough foot traffic, there’s no point of a credit card system, because then they end up losing any money, even if you make $0 that day.

Jackie 23:21
Yeah, I think like the notion that, you know, these old Chinatown businesses wouldn’t have been able to, like, modernize and digitize and get on social media without the help of like, young first gen kids. I think that’s like, totally false. I mean, when we look around, I just like, look at how scrappy these businesses have gotten. And, you know, they they do what it what it takes, right, whether it’s like physically building an outdoor dining thing, because you don’t have like, American Express backed, you know, gorgeous outdoor bodega, or whatever bungalows, I think they make it work, you know, they’re out there. They’re like building these things. And, and if it means, like, they need to get on these delivery apps that are, you know, a whole other topic, like sucking money from them, but if that’s what it takes, like they’re doing these things, and we’re sort of here to like, help them navigate that and help them sort of figure out which ones are maybe, you know, a better solution than others. But I do think like, another like, very hopeful thing is that these businesses are not just like, okay, well, we’re we just have to close now they’re like, grabbing out whatever they can to stay alive, and stay afloat through this and hopefully, you know, see the other side.

Jesse Lin 24:30
Jackie, you mentioned a really good point that I was just thinking of when you’re when you’re talking which is that a lot of the articles are coming out around this make it kind of sound like the younger generation is coming in as like a savior and they’re like helping out these fuddy duddy old people who don’t know what they’re doing, but it’s probably not the case. Right? They’ve been around for a while. So I would curious to learn from the both of you like have you learned something from working with these business owners.

Jackie 24:56
I mean, just like the the overhead costs and what it takes to run business and a restaurant in general has just been like such a shock to me. I mean, I’ve sort of like worked in the food world for a bit and had a general understanding that it was difficult, but just knowing like, I think in the beginning, when I was speaking to a lot of these businesses kind of just taking their temp and seeing, like, what the struggles were everyone was like, well, we’re just putting out fires, like, we’re not even looking ahead. Like, it’s so hard. Everything is sort of like, like, day by day, month by month. And it’s I think, that has been a huge learning. But you’re so right. I mean, like, this summer, we were putting together this socially distanced food crawl event, it was sort of our first like, public facing event. And we were really concerned, we wanted to make sure like, every single thing was perfect, both from like a COVID standpoint, making sure that businesses were prepared. So we had like, thought of every possible thing that could go wrong and written it out and like, had this huge outline to present to these businesses. And they were like, oh, we’ve served like a lot of people before, don’t worry, we got this. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, you’re right, you definitely know more about this than I do. I think if anything, it’s like, we’re learning the same amount from each other, you know, and just sort of like trading notes and creating these events from those from what comes out of that those conversations.

Jesse Lin 26:10
What about you, Harry?

Harry 26:11
I mean, that kind of thing was Jackie, like, just getting to know, well, first of all, I think like a lot of the history in Chinatown that I just didn’t know about, and then also just like, like, so currently, I’m working with Jin Fong to actually outside of Welcome to China attempt to like, work with them to make the outdoor dining set up. And part of it, I get the opportunity to go through their kitchen. Oh, my God it’s so cool. And then, like, they had woks the size of like, I don’t even know how big they were like, essentially, like, bigger than a car tire. And you don’t realize why, like, you know, as like a consumer of just like, hey, like, you know, I can buy a few dim sum dishes here and there and then that can help them but it’s like, oh, no, it’s like, they have separate kitchens for different types of cooking. And then you have different chefs doing different things. And then you can’t really turn off one kitchen or not, because that eliminates a whole food group. So it’s like things like that, like you don’t you end up learning about and then you know, right now, I’m also learning about like, ask them, like, where are these chefs coming from? They’re like, oh, like they came with, like, you know, the previous generation of immigration. And then now we’re worried because there might not be a next generation to take on the same skills.

Angela Lin 27:33
Okay, well, sounds like you’re learning a lot about how to run businesses.

Harry 27:39
Yeah. We’re gonna be consulting with people like this how you open a Chinatown restaurant, you gotta get a, b, and c, gotta get the giant wok.

Angela Lin 27:52
Alright, so I think we’re coming up around kind of like closing but want to make sure that we let the listeners know how they can support whether they’re in New York or not in New York, how can they support what you guys are doing?

Harry 28:08
Yes, we have so many things going on. So first, you can follow us on Instagram, which is welcome period to period Chinatown. Welcome to Chinatown. You can also find us on our website, which is WelcometoChinatown.com. If, if you have the means to feel free to donate honestly, every dollar does help us like you know, it helps us fund for our Longevity Fund, which is our small business grants that we’re working towards of like getting $5,000 grants to small businesses. We’re working on a business accelerator, which is working with a different pool of small businesses in Chinatown and figure out like where can we bring in our expertise to kind of like help them like up their game. You can buy our merch MadeinChinatownNY.com, we’re gonna do a big drop for Luna New Years, so if you wanna rep us so yeah, really, honestly, you find us on Instagram. You get all the news, you can sign up for our newsletter, which is a more like formal way of like reading about us if you like to. And then also if anyone wants to volunteer with us or just like wants to just like contribute in a different way. We’ve had a lot of illustrators and designers just being like, hey, like, I would love to donate some time to just like draw a few things and you can use it to, you know, sell merch or something. So, we have a lot of ways to kind of like contribute. If it’s not monetary, you can just re-story us, you can just kind of tell your friends about it. Or you can buy merch from us. It’s really anything you decide.

Jackie 29:47
Yeah, I think Harry touched upon our like sort of the donations if you’re able to. We have a Longevity Fund, which is sort of our own like small business grant program. So something we learned very early on was that like small family owned Chinatown businesses were basically being overlooked for any kind of grant or any kind of loan. Some of it is like, you know, whether they don’t really have the means or the capacity to like show how much they’re really struggling and a lot of that is sort of this like cash based business as well. So we sort of wanted to build a way to take all these donations and, you know, create just like a small little lifeline for these businesses to cover some overhead costs. So all that money goes to these businesses and keeping them alive. And then I think for like all grassroots movements, like just sharing the story is so huge. Even if it’s as simple as like, you see a really cool story about a business owner on Instagram, you tap that share button, and then you know, someone else learns about it, and then keeps going.

Jesse Lin 30:47
We always like to end our podcasts on a sweet treat. So we’re going to enter our fortune cookie closing segment. And what we wanted to ask both you you guys have already talked about a few different stores but individually what would you say is your favorite mom and pop Asian business?

Jackie 31:04
Uh, definitely for sure Fong On is like one of my favorite like, when I’m looking for a sweet treats, but I don’t exactly know what I want. I feel like that’s kind of hit the spot. I feel like Asian desserts are not are always like, like perfect amount of sugar and perfect amount of sweetness. And they do that with like tofu and with rice cakes. So that’s one of my three favorite children. And then Fay-Da I know that’s kind of a boring answer but like, every time I’m back in New York, I feel like I go there for a sesame ball. I sort of my like, I’m finally back here and I can get like a great Asian baked good. I’m gonna toss it to Harry as I think of my third.

Harry 31:47
You inspired me a bit. Yeah, so let’s see one of them is Double Crispy bakery. They’re famously known for their Portuguese egg tarts, but they also have this very decadent, elaborate mango cake. Beautiful. So love them. They’re so cute. Like every single time they go in there they always suggest like a new thing that they’re trying. Another store called Grand Tea Imports, they sell like kind of spiritual items. A lot of age teas that are amazing. They like are aged for like 20 years and they find it in some caves. And I don’t really understand how they find it. They tell me stories. I’m like, I don’t really believe. And then their mom and dad are so cute. Every time I come in there. They always show off this cute little trinket they’ve like sourced from Asia. Look at this thing and I’m like caving and now I have like a million trinkets. And then the last place. I don’t know. Jackie, do you have a third?

Jackie 32:54
Yes, I’ll save you don’t worry. This is definitely one of the newer ones they actually opened like the spring so they’re called Public Village. It’s like a Sichuan like noodle snacky place. But they were part of one of our food crawls. And they do this like amazing, crispy, spicy lotus root dish. But I like the food is amazing. It’s spicy and delicious. But I also think the fact that they like opened and persevered through like a pandemic is just a testament to like, their their drive and food’s delicious. So it makes sense why they’re still around.

Harry 33:29
Okay, I think I have my last one now.

Jackie 33:32
What a test.

Harry 33:33
Last, I know, I know. My last one is Wing On Ww & Co they’re this amazing shop on Mott Street. They’re like, right now in their third generation, they’ve been there for 100 years, like the oldest shop in Chinatown. They’ve like shifted from general store to like for a while they had a like herbalist counter and now they primarily do porcelain. And third generation May Lum she also runs a like artists residency out of her storefront too. And they do a lot of community activism. But a lot of the work they sell is beautiful. They sell things that are from like, generations ago, but then also they source new Asian American ceramic artists, and then have their work right next to like something we have like, you know, from our grandparents. So she does a really great job of creating both like what we see is like familiar and part of her like, kind of cultural identity and then like blending it with like what is our new identity and thinking about like, how can we kind of progress from this?

Angela Lin 34:46
Well, thank you for joining us. I think we learned a lot from this conversation and just thank you for the work that you’re doing because it’s so important not just to Chinatown, but as we said to the broader community. So, thank you.

Jackie 35:01
Thank you guys for having us and for you know, and having this awesome podcast honestly and kind of amplifying these voices that need to be heard.

Jesse Lin 35:18
Amazing. Alright guys. Well thanks for joining us and our guests. If you have any feedback for us or if you have more questions about how you can support our friends here, please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram. You can dm us or you can email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com.

Angela Lin 0:21
We have a special guest with us today. Ryan wait actually, do you go by Ryan Alex Holmes or Ryan?

Ryan 0:29
Ryan Alexander Holmes. It’s almost like a British name or something like that.

Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)

Angela Lin 0:33
I love it. Okay, um, Ryan, how would you describe yourself? You’re part actor, TikTok celebrity or like, what’s your go-to?

Ryan 0:43
Celebrity? I just like to express myself. Like, I like to fully investigate my identity and who I am and share it with the world in whatever medium that I can get my hands on to do so.

Angela Lin 1:03
And our signature question to start things off – but where are you really from? And or what are you?

Ryan 1:13
I’m, I’m, I’m a citizen of Blasia. Ever heard of it?

Angela Lin 1:19
Tell us more.

Ryan 1:21
It’s a country that I founded just now. For all the Blasians out there because we don’t have a home country. We’ve never had one. When people ask where are you from? A blasian has to make up an answer that’s not adequate I feel like for them, and I’ve just and so I’m from Blasia, that’s where I’m from.

Angela Lin 1:41
Okay, I love that. We’re having Ryan on to talk about a lot of cool things. But one of the main things is that we’ve never been able to explore this, like, multicultural biracial identity. So I think we have a lot of fun stuff to talk about. But for those who don’t know you, so you’re blasian but that is so wide, as well as like, what kind of Asian?

Ryan 2:04
This is even interesting too I mean, I’m African American. So, you know, from, you know, slavery. That’s my dad side. And my mom’s side is Chinese, but from Taiwan. Yeah, I know you guys are both from Taiwan, right? I do get flack sometimes because people are like, they see that the Taiwan flag that I proudly wave and put on on my social media handles? Like, when you say Chinese when you mean Taiwanese, and I’m like, No, I don’t mean Chinese. Because because my, my mother is ethnically Chinese, but grew up in Taiwan. And you guys know the history and I don’t know, your family background. But my family, my Chinese family came to Taiwan after the war. You know what I mean? And so they’re that, you know, if I do identify, it’s Chinese-Taiwanese. You know, but that’s always been contentious. I don’t consider myself under the laws of whatever that identity is to, to the people who are telling me how to identify I’m gonna identify however I want. And what’s funny is that like, people will tell me as if I don’t know my own family history what I need to identify myself as, you know, instead of asking, like, I see the Taiwan flag, but you say Chinese, let’s – can you explain why that is? Instead of being like, how dare you say that? You don’t even know your history? It’s like, come on, man.

Jesse Lin 3:42
That’s interesting. You’re saying other Asian people are like, sorting you into one of the two are like forcing you to pick.

Ryan 3:49
Yeah exactly yeah. I mean, that’s that those are the ones that accept me as Asian.

Jesse Lin 3:55
That’s so you know what, cuz we also we talk a lot about how like, non Asian people also like to put us in boxes. But on the flip side, we also talked about how there’s generally like this imposter syndrome. Like you don’t really fit in anywhere, like, when I go back to Asia, like people can tell that I’m not from there

Ryan 4:13
Yeah, I heard that there that in a previous episode, you’re just like, yeah, they can clock it right away. Like,

Jesse Lin 4:19
Yeah, we’re like, we look similar. But then people can tell they’re like, you’re not from here.

Ryan 4:24
You smell different? I don’t know. You ain’t from here.

Jesse Lin 4:29
Yeah.

Ryan 4:30
Yeah, I feel you, man. I felt that when you said that, because I’m just like, I guess mine is another layer, right? Because I don’t. I love to tell people like, I do look Asian. Like, just because I don’t look Asian to you does not mean that I don’t look Asian because I literally am Asian. You know, in my blood. It’s what I actually am. So to say that I don’t look it. You could say I don’t look like the stereotypical idea of Asian. Yeah, sure. But you better say that. Because I am Asian, so therefore I do look Asian.

Angela Lin 5:46
Did your family like take you back to the motherland frequently or what was like the first time that you went?

Ryan 5:52
I went first time to the motherland Taiwan like two years ago, two and a half years ago. My mom hadn’t been back since she left which after she went to NTU National Taiwan University. She was a nerd. And then she went to another nerd school. She went to UPenn. And she was never she never went back. And so she went with us. We went there. I guess what I expected was like when my dad takes me back or took me back to you know where he’s from in the south Jacksonville, Florida. Like, this is where I grew up. These are this. These are the halls that I walked. This is my paper route – my mom’s just like, okay, here’s my school. Yeah. And yeah, and that’s Taipei 101, you should look at that. It’s like, it wasn’t like a huge homecoming. And I’m like, Mom, you haven’t been here in like, 30 years, like, isn’t this exciting for you? She’s like, yeah it’s exciting.

Angela Lin 6:50
You know how Asian parents like to quell their own emotions.

Ryan 6:57
You know, but we did go to like her old she went to boarding school out there. So we saw her boarding school, we walk the campus of NTU. You know, and but a lot of it was just she said, like a lot of the things that she used to do and walk around in the building. Like it was all different. You know, yeah, but she barely recognizable. You know?

Angela Lin 7:18
It’s funny.

Jesse Lin 7:18
So you said your grandparents left China after the war? Do you have families still in China as well, or everyone’s in Taiwan?

Ryan 7:27
And this is where it’s complicated, right? Because I lived in Shanghai, which, which is where I do have family. But I didn’t see them. And I don’t know why I didn’t see them. And I say I don’t know why. Because I don’t know why. I don’t know if it’s because my grandma doesn’t get along with them. Or like the family doesn’t get along with them. Or if it’s because I’m black. Just gonna be straight up here. You know, I mean, and, and, and I don’t know, you know, maybe my grandma’s protecting me from the racism that I might experience. You know, the non acceptance that I might experience. Because I heard the podcast we were talking about your grandparents. Was that your grandparents? Jesse? I don’t care who you bring home. It’s fine…

Jesse Lin 8:13
Oh, yeah that was my aunt.

Ryan 8:15
…as long as they’re not black. Okay. Yeah.If they’re not black, it’s fine. Anything else? It’s like, Damn, why do you hate us so much? Like, we’re humans, dude. I get it. I can laugh about it. Because like, I’ve lived my whole life, understanding like, why they feel that way. And a lot of it is just not even their fault, because it’s just conditioning, that they’ve had it. They’ve been brainwashed by, honestly.

Angela Lin 8:41
Let’s dig into that. Because I think that was a big piece I am like, very curious about is, it sounds like your grandparents were super embracing and like loving and like, DGAF that you’re half black.

Ryan 8:55
They got there. They didn’t start there. My mom was going against the family what the family wanted by marrying my dad, you know, which race was also a part of it. I don’t want to make it. I don’t want to paint a picture that like my grandparents were just absolutely racist. And it was all about the skin color. Because it wasn’t it is more complicated than that. But it definitely was a factor. Right? And then when my when my brother my oldest brother was born, then it had to it just had to change, right? Because now my grandparents, and my Chinese side of the family is like, Oh, shit, okay, well, now there’s a baby he’s Chinese, and he’s black. We love him. We love it. We’ve decided we want to do it. I mean, that’s what and that’s and that’s what’s so funny about it. When I look at people who like don’t like somebody because of they can say it’s non racial factors as to why they don’t like a group of people. But it is and it’s racist, just period. And people will do anything they can to justify those, those thoughts and that ideology, but I can see it for what it is because I’ve lived it. And my family has lived it, and we realize that it doesn’t fucking matter at all, you know. And if you actually get to know the human being for who they are, outside of these preconceived ideas about someone you’ve never met yet, then you’ll get to see like, Oh, I got it. And that’s how I was raised. I was raised by obviously, both my sides and taught to embrace both my sides. And obviously, on the Chinese side, because I don’t look traditionally stereotypically Asian. It was, you know, there’s pushback from that side. And what I had to learn was that, as long as I have my family who accepts me for who I am, and I don’t have to prove that to them, I can just be Chinese. Because that’s what I am, you know what I mean? It doesn’t matter to them, then I can carry that same the same vibes into the real world, right? Oh, you don’t accept me as Chinese? Well, guess what? I don’t give a fuck because I am, you know what I mean. And that’s a completely different way of interacting with the world. I’m not asking for your acceptance. I already accept who I am. You know, and you see it in my content, too. I don’t, I’m not asking for acceptance. I’m showing how I was raised and how I embrace my own culture, outside of whatever opinions may come to the forefront, right? And I think, because I only started making my own content about this, like, five months ago, it was during the pandemic, I started. And I realized also, that the idea that Asian the Asian community did not accept me was was pinned in the 1990s, right, from the anti blackness that I experienced from the Asian community back then. And because I did, because I had this idea, the Asian community doesn’t accept me from that age, it sort of didn’t grow, I didn’t grow with the age of communities understanding in the same way that the Asian community did, about their anti blackness. So the acceptance that I’m feeling now, I’m just like, Whoa, I didn’t know that Asians would, would be like, excited by the content I’m making or think it was funny or see me as one of them. Because that’s not what I was doing it for. I was doing it for me. It was doing it for my self expression. And showing people in general, not the Asian community, that however you identify is how you identify it, especially if it’s in your blood.

Angela Lin 12:39
You know, everything you just said, I feel like a bit of envy, almost, because you went through a lot of clearly growing up to like, get to the point where your family is like totally embracing you and like empowering you, you’re empowering you and your sense of self. But it feels like all that did, you know culminate in you feeling like super secure in your identity and like how you want to express that and wanting to like really own and be, you know, prideful of your Chinese heritage. And I think something that Jesse and I have talked about a lot is like how we denied our heritage growing up, like we wanted desperately just to be like white, right? Yeah, no, we can’t escape how we look. So we’re, we couldn’t ever really escape the Chinese, Taiwanese-ness. But we wanted to deny it as long as possible. And it’s like only until recently that we’re trying to like rediscover that for ourselves.

Ryan 13:43
So I feel you on that, because there’s times where I wanted to erase my blackness, and be not necessarily white, but be like everyone else, and everyone else was white, and also the Asian kids that I was around because my community was 50-50 White, or 50-50 white and Asian. Wanted to be white too, you know, or wanted to be part of the popular culture. Like so I’ve I’ve experienced that too. I’ve also experienced, you know, moving – going to a middle school that was in Rowland Heights, which is primarily Asian. And I would hide in the car when my grandparents would pick me up because I didn’t want people to know that I was Chinese and I didn’t want them to ask questions. You know, I didn’t I was already getting made fun of for being black. I didn’t want to get made fun of for being Asian too. You know, and I can’t i’ve i’ve had to forgive myself, right? Because my grandpa, my grandpa is not alive anymore. And I look back at the way that he raised me and I’m just like, that is so it was so not synonymous with how other Chinese grandparents raised their grandkids. He would tell me, he loves me every single time I saw him. Every day, you know what I mean? And so I’m just like, How could you? little, you know, like talking to my little, my former little self hiding in the backseat? Like, how could you do that? This man was he loved you and no other Chinese parents are doing that, how dare you? You know, I had to forgive myself for that, because that’s what and also look back at that perspective and not carry it with me moving forward now, right? Because I was totally subject to what others were telling me to identify as and believe. And I was living my life in accordance to their value structures, right? Whereas now I’m like, oh, you’re making fun of me for being Chinese? Well, you’re the idiot here. I don’t have to listen to you. I don’t have to, I don’t even have to, you’re not gonna live in my head rent free. You’re gonna get evicted. And and also, the mean, right? Like when you’re a kid, you’re you don’t have choice. Like you have to go to the school, you have to be around those kids. I don’t have to be around anybody. I don’t want to be around. That doesn’t feed me. That doesn’t support me.

Jesse Lin 16:07
We’ve talked a lot about how like our childhoods and how we grew up kind of like directed where we went as adults or like our behavior. But I think a big part of it that I we tend to overlook is that we reinforce that on ourselves, in a sense, like, it’s baggage that we carry with us. And we allow, as you said, to live rent free in our head, like where, in a sense, it’s like self sabotage. So yeah, I think it’s really interesting that you bring up that point, because I think a lot of a lot of us struggle to identify that self sabotage and figure out like, why is it that I feel second place all the time? Like, why do I let people get in my head. And part of the process of doing this podcast has been so great, it’s because we’re now kind of like, the same place as you are, where we’re like, we don’t care what other people think about our Asian identities, like the purpose of this podcast, is so that we can find what it means for us and like, create that meaning. So that is like a million times more powerful than what other people are thinking in terms of like stereotypes or preconceived notions and stuff like that.

Ryan 17:15
Absolutely. Even having this conversation, right. Is is making us think in different ways and question, you know, the sort of structures that we’ve been taught to live by that may no longer serve us, you know, and that’s the reason why we feel like, sometimes we’re not at it. And that look, I’m not completely secure. Like, I have to still deal with a lot of the things but because I have that awareness, I can be like, now, Ryan, that’s the that’s the conditioning. That’s conditioning. You did do a good job. You did a good job. Tell yourself You did a good job. Okay. Did you did? Don’t -you know what I mean? Cuz, growing up in an Asian household, it’s like, even your accomplishments are just like, even that even the top one accomplishments are like, okay, but what’s next? I’m not gonna give you a trophy for doing what you’re supposed to do. And it’s like, but damn, like, can you just give me like a nod or like a handshake or something damn? I feel like I did something here. You know?

Jesse Lin 18:14
I’m curious. Was that what it was? Like, when you were growing up like the parenting structure was very Asian?

Ryan 18:21
Yeah oh, no, it was very Asian. Okay. Like, first of all, I was raised by my Chinese side, my parents are still together, they raised me together. But like, my entire Asian family lives in Los Angeles. So I’ll go to grandma’s house every weekend with my cousins and stuff like that. We compete. We compete with each other with times tables.

Angela Lin 18:41
You were much more Asian than we were!

Ryan 18:46
Peak Asian. But here’s another thing is like, I didn’t know that that was Asian. Because I didn’t have anything outside of my family to really compare it to, like, we were just being us. And my Asian experience was very insular. I didn’t have sort of, like, a lot of Asian friends that did Asian things that I hung out with. Yeah, I say that to say like, I really did get the experience of just being myself for a while. A lot of ways it was a good experience, because it made me very close with my family and made my identity something that I didn’t, didn’t compare to others about or tried to prove so much about but but there was a lot of me trying to prove my Asianness when I first started really embarking on like, Oh, dude, I am half Asian. Like, I know, I strongly identify with black because society has, has deemed me black. But over the past several years, like really diving into learning the language and the history and trying to make Asian friends and go going to China and living there and going to Taiwan and speaking to my grandparents and my mom about our family’s history and stuff like that. A lot of that started as me trying to prove it to other people. Right? And then being very, very upset, depressed even when I was met sort of with like, what, you know, or like a spectacle, like I’m a spectacle and not really accepted. It’s just like, wow, wow, can I you know, it’s it’s. So now it’s like that that still happens all the time. But I’m not like that doesn’t define me though. Like, I define me. And that’s made all the difference. And another experience I had I modeled out there the whole time I was out there, I signed with this modeling agency, and when I signed with them, they literally straight up told me like, oh, it’s a good thing that you’re not darker because we wouldn’t have signed you. It’s funny, though. It’s funny, though, because Chinese people are my people. I see them as my people. And I know, they don’t mean like, their racism is not like KKK racism. It’s like, no, this, these are just the facts, you know? Like, theseare just the facts. Like if you’re darker, then we wouldn’t want you like, there’s facts, like you wouldn’t make us money.

Angela Lin 21:10
I mean, if it makes you feel any better, I I feel that myself when I go back to Asia, because I you know, Jesse and I grew up in Southern California, just like you and I used to be like, five times darker than this in peak summer, you know, I’d be like bake it all in and I’d go back to Asia and it’d be like, that’s why it stood out is because I’m super dark.

Ryan 21:32
Yeah, colorism is not even attached to just race, right? There is racism in China. But colorism is was a separate issue. But when racism became so popular these days, colorism sort of blended into racism right? Because the colorism was a class thing in Asia. Yeah. And then when when black people existed in these people’s eyes, they were through the lens of how American media wanted to show us or Western culture wanted to show black people. And unfortunately, Asians were subject to that conditioning. So you have this colorism, which is like, you must look like a ghost at all times. And if you don’t find some cream and rub that shit into your skin until you look like a ghost. And then they’re right, right? It’s like weaved into the beauty standards in the class, the classism structure in not just China, but all throughout Asia. And then you have black people who like literally cannot change the color of their skin because they’re just black. And so that negative view from the classist point of view is already there, right? And then you piggyback off of that and add the conditioning, the racist conditioning, right. And that in that comes from little things, too, like Darkie toothpaste, was it called Blackie toothpaste, my mom used to brush her teeth. And she was a kid growing up in Taiwan, right? And she wasn’t thinking about that. Like, you know, but but I don’t think my mom saw a black person until she like in real life until she went to Japan. And that’s 24 years of life, right? And then you imagine that, and, you know, you go to America, and then it’s like a shock when black people look, there’s like a diversity in the black community that you never were taught. Right? I think that’s what happened with my mom. It’s like, Oh, you know, and it sounds crazy. It’s like, oh, black people can be smart?. And like they go to school? Like, that’s sort of like how deep it is. In the conditioning is like they really, conditioning can really make you so racist without you even knowing that racism is even a thing. It’s just like, that’s just how it is like my modeling agency in China. Like that’s just how it is. You’re if you were darker, we wouldn’t want you.

Angela Lin 23:56
Well, let’s go into the media topic. Because you so you did some modeling in China, but you also do some acting here in the US, right? I’m curious about what assumptions people make or boxes they put you in because we’ve we had a another actor on a previous episode, Amy, and she had her own, you know, boxes that she’s put in because she’s stereotypically Asian looking. But I’m curious because you do you do have these two sides of you. And you can even speak Chinese like I’m curious what like role you’re trying to go after versus what people are trying to impose on you.

Ryan 24:37
This is such a great question. And I listened to to Amy’s interview in its entirety. And I was like, wow, I connected this so much more than I thought I would. And I’m like, why aren’t there more conversations like this? Anyway. I’m much more interested in paving my own way and making my own content. That’s what Amy said too because like, it’s like I don’t make content for the predominant cultures gaze, and gaze G-A-Z-E, just so we’re clear. Yeah, I do want to make that clear. Because that’s not expressing myself, if I’m making it for people outside of me that are in control of the industry, so that what they can put me on the map, so it’s all about them. It’s all about pleasing them, and not about expressing myself. I know there’s an in between there, right? But I want the what comes first and foremost, something that’s funny to me interesting to me something that I’m passionate about that needs to lead the project that I want to be a part of. I also think the more time that I spend on understanding who I am and what I want to do, the more I’ll be in connection to the people who are making that kind of those kinds of productions. You know, it used to just be when I first graduated from my MFA program, it used to just be like, well, I don’t care, I’ll just work on a CBS show and, and then I’ll be famous and like, you know what I mean, but like, I’m not really interested. Here’s the thing, like, I’m gonna take a network TV job, if I get it, come on. I’m not above that. What I’m saying is, like, it’s not necessarily what is my, it’s not my dream, my overall goal is to is to do what what my content is doing, is to inspire other people to express themselves outside of other people’s opinions, especially when it’s the predominant culture and in Hollywood, we see that a lot. Right? Why do Asians have to fight tooth and nail to just get one project done? Same thing with with black people in a different way. And people of all people of color, I want us to get to a level where we just make it because we want to make it you know, and we can be just as mediocre as a lot of these white productions are. You know, I don’t like to compare white, black, Asian, I don’t like to do that. But like, when I say white, I mean the predominant culture. And that is that is white, right? And you have all these wack-ass, sorry, all these shows that are like not very good. And they can be not very good. Right? I want to champion like black mediocrity and, and, Asian mediocrity – we should be able to be mediocre and have mediocre shows, too. We should have a diversity, and not have to be like, you know, stand up for a TV show or a movie that we don’t really like, because it’s Asian, because it’s black, because it’s a primarily people of color. But we do kind of have to when we think of it in terms of, you know, establishing ourselves in the industry as we know it today.

Angela Lin 27:40
You know, when you said that thing about like, why can’t we have mediocre content too. I remembered a conversation I had with a friend when Crazy Rich Asians came out which, but i think is phenomenal, not mediocre. It’s a you know, a certainly above average and the range from there is you know, personal opinion. But I remember you know, talking very highly of that because yeah, number one, great movie number two, you know, all Asian, there’s meaning behind that, whatever. And the person I was talking to was like, I mean, it was just another rom com. I was like, but that’s the point like why do white rom-coms get like, you know, a star rating, whereas like this all Asian cast doing and also just another rom com has to be told it’s just another rom com?

Ryan 28:30
Yes, they don’t get it because they don’t understand how much it means. It’s funny hearing white people’s opinions about Black Panther and Crazy Rich Asians, because they’re really just viewing it as a movie, in their in their own perspective. Right. And so like, they’ll have an opinion, that’s completely not tied to culture at all. But like, if you watch crazy rich Asians, that shit’s about culture. You know, if you watch Black Panther that’s all about culture. And like, if you’re not a part of the culture, of course, you’re not going to be able to really enjoy it that much. But that’s your fault. That’s your fault. You know, because we got to know your culture, whatever it is, I don’t know what that culture what white culture really is. But I think it’s just the predominant culture that we all have at one point in time during our childhood or even people now have not escaped from trying to assimilate into it. Right? But if you are coming from the predominant and you’re watching a movie about you know if you’re watching Black Panther or Crazy Rich Asians, of course your experience is going to be different. But I’ll tell you like I was like weeping, watching Black Panther. Because it was portraying black people in a way that I wish I had as a child. And I and and I wish that I ever had before hand right? Where like we are the most advanced people on the earth. Right? Wakanda is the most advanced Infrastructure technology, you know, sciences in the world. I was like, Oh my god, this is, this is what we need, right? This is what we need. We need to show kids, these positive examples of what you can do for your community. Right? Like, I don’t want to get too into it. But like a lot of rap music and a lot of hip hop culture is so demeaning to women, so demeaning to the community talks about gun violence, right? And I can come at from a perspective of understanding and compassion because I was forced onto us, too, by our circumstances, like we are in part, we are in poverty stricken communities on purpose – legislation brought that about, right, it’s not their fault. It’s not our fault. And I look and then I can talk about Crazy Rich Asians and be like, I also cried there, too. Because I’m like, I’ve never got to, I’ve never got to see my people, Chinese, Asian people, all part of the cast, where there’s no white savior involved. In the wedding scene, I’m just like, wow, like Asian love. Hey, you know, that’s not even a concept. That wasn’t really even a concept really, in an Asian American cinematic history. I’m all about Crazy Rich Asians, all about movies like Black Panther. I’m all about movies that just let Asians be Asians and let black people be black people. Right?

Angela Lin 31:32
Yes. Just people.

Ryan 31:34
I think also, during this time, after George Floyd, I think a lot of the Asian American community, and during COVID racism, the Asian American community has realized like, Oh, we are people of color. And not only that, like, the racism that we didn’t experience was conditional. Like, they will turn on us on any given moment. You know, and if that is the case, and we are people of color, let’s understand other people of colors experience in this country, and unite and find an understanding and a catharsis, too expressing the pain that you felt that you may not even know that you were feeling, because you repressed it, because that’s what we do that let’s come together and find these bridges that we can get that we can fill the gaps between.

Angela Lin 32:26
I do really feel like there has been a coming together across all people colors, and yeah, it’s crazy months that we’ve been living.

Ryan 32:38
Unfortunate that it had to happen this way.

Jesse Lin 32:40
Yeah, you know, we’ve discussed it before. And it is very similar, where, you know, we have this idea that we can kind of just fly under the radar, like, people who present outwardly as Asian, because you have all these like model minority concepts, and you think you can just, you know, exist without people bothering you. But it’s proven not to be the case.

Ryan 32:59
Yeah, I would, I would say that Asians came to this country from cultures of honor and respect, and were met with disrespect and xenophobia, and refuse to stoop to that level. So they put their we put our heads down and, and understood our skill set. And, and kept retained our honor and respect and found success in our own way. And to the people who disrespected us, that it seems like we’re quiet, and that were domesticated and that we don’t have a voice. But in reality, that’s how we coped with the animosity and adversity that we faced when we got here. So I, I think that Asians are amazing. And now we’re just at a turning point where we’re realizing a further way in which we need to adapt and come together.

Jesse Lin 34:01
I agree.

Ryan 34:01
That’s what that’s what it is.

Angela Lin 34:03
All right, well, that was heavy, but also uplifting near the end. So let’s keep it uplifting and move into move into our Fortune Cookie because we always like to end on a sweet treat. Earlier, you talked about hip hop, and rap and how those can oftentimes be more associated with like negative topics. But you know, while we were scrolling through your page and the content that you make, we noticed that you have been promoting more acceptance and awareness of Chinese hip hop and Chinese rap. We wanted to ask what your favorite Chinese language artist is to plug them so that people can start listening.

Ryan 34:55
Oh, man, I mean, there’s so many I like I do listen to Higher Brothers rap group and why I came to respect them so much is because I saw a documentary about them. I think it was on Vice, where they were interviewed about how they came to love rap so much. And they went to this old record store. And they were pulling out rappers that like I had grown up on, like, Rakim and Common and Big L. These sort of like, rappers that that that changed the hip hop game changed the rap game, one of the higher brothers rappers was like, yeah, we used to listen to this in our basement for like, non stop and really understood the cadence of how he was saying and what he was saying and why it was impactful and the rhythms you know what I mean? I was like, Oh, so y’all are really about this. Like, this isn’t like some some cool trend borderline appropriation thing for you like this is life for you. And so I’m a forever fan of theirs. And that’s, that’s hip hop, but also in like the r&b world, Eric Cho is like, I really do like his music a lot. Because it just like, I’m very I’m an emotional sensitive person. And like he really hits your heart every single time.

Jesse Lin 36:15
Yeah, well, if you guys enjoy this episode, if you have any questions for Ryan about himself or his experience, or you just want to chime in with comments about the episode, and reminder that we’re still looking for listener story submissions, so write us in about whatever experience with this topic you have, or whatever you want at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com. Ryan, would you like to tell our listeners where they can find you?

Ryan 36:41
You can find me in the streets. No you can find me find me on Instagram and Tiktok my handle is ryanalexh, and maybe you’ll see me on TV too. I’ve got a project I’m working on. It’s gonna be on TV streaming. So that’s not really TV. You know what I mean?

Angela Lin 37:00
It is, as anything can be these days. Awesome. Come back next week. We’ll have another fun episode for you then.