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What We Love About Year Two of Podcasting


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Jesse: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin

[00:00:01] Angela: And I’m Angela Lin. And we’ll come back to another episode of, but where are you really from today is a special episode because it’s actually our two year pod anniversary momentous. What. So, yeah, honestly, I did not ever, I mean, I didn’t like think about what it would feel like at two years, but I didn’t, I don’t know.

[00:00:26] Angela: I didn’t forecast it out where I was like in two years from today, we’re gonna be blah, blah, blah. So it’s kind of weird.

[00:00:32] Jesse: I mean, in terms of active commitments and I mean, active commitments, like not my cell phone bill, not my utility bill, not my. This is probably like number three on the longest active commitment I have had after like a personal relationship, my cat.

[00:00:50] Jesse: And this is it. like if I, yeah, it doesn’t count. Like if all personal relationships were like, Friends. Everything. Yeah. It’s kind of crazy. Yeah. It is funny that we’ve been doing this for two years and there’s still tech problems. Like I know we’re like remote and everything, but there’s like no good way to do.

[00:01:08] Jesse: Honestly, there isn’t a good way to do this. Like if you’re. Super on the go and you don’t have a good internet connection. It can be a little bit tricky. yes,

[00:01:17] Angela: actually, let’s talk about that for sure. Um, but if you have not heard what we were just talking about, basically every single time Jessie and I record two years in now, even still, something’s always off, there’s always tech issues and we’ve been using the same recording platform, at least in the last like six months or so too.

[00:01:37] Angela: Every single time without fail, we still have issues. Somehow.

[00:01:40] Jesse: It is how it is. I feel like, honestly,

[00:01:43] Angela: I think the only people who don’t have recording issues are people who record like by themselves, on their hardware or like in person, in like a legit studio studio with like a DSLR camera or whatever, but like anyone who has to rely on remote streaming stuff, like we do, it’s.

[00:02:01] Angela: It’s a, you know, can

[00:02:03] Jesse: of worms. It’s very cur it’s curious for me though, whether people enjoy that format more like the in studio, when there’s video content associated versus like recording remotely where you could be anywhere. I don’t know. I feel like my favorite podcast stuff where people have added videos, video stuff, the video stuff is fun to watch because it’s like completely unhinging.

[00:02:26] Jesse: Like, it’s like, you know, the studio space is like very, you know what we were, we’ve been talking about, like what’s real, what’s raw and like emotional and like what people are drawn to. And what’s like too produced. And I feel like when you’re beaming in from wherever you are, it’s really much more realistic.

[00:02:44] Jesse: Yeah. And it’s not super produced and things can go crazy at any one second. And I feel like sometimes people vibe off that. energy. They’re like, that’s part of your dynamic in terms of how you balance, um, on and off of those, like weird one off situations.

[00:03:00] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I agree with that, but it feels like this is already nationally kind of segueing into like the different formats that we’ve tried since we started versus now.

[00:03:11] Angela: So we’ve always been remote because you and I, I mean, we’ve been friends since we were like five and six years old respectively, but since I left New York, which was in like 20, oh my God, 2015 or something. Yeah. Something like. You and I haven’t lived in the same place, but we’ve stayed like best friends.

[00:03:30] Angela: Mm-hmm so when we started this during the pandemic, it always was gonna be remote anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Versus like a lot of podcasts, you know, they started in person. Yes. And then they had to figure out how to transition to remote. Yeah. Um, but. Speaking of like remote versus in person. I mean, one of my favorite formats that we did was like the few episodes that we got to record in person with each other.

[00:03:54] Angela: Yes. I think it did introduce new challenges because with neither of us as like, you know, we don’t do like videography and like photography as like our true hobbies. So the setup figuring out the setup was kind of janky and like, we don’t have the right mics technically for, in person. But there is something to be said about like the energy that you have when it’s in person.

[00:04:19] Angela: Yeah. You can like feed off each other a little more. There’s more direct body language and all that stuff.

[00:04:23] Jesse: Yeah. I agree. Because it’s like having a talk show, but your guest is remote. Like it’s just so hard to maintain your connection to that person. And also like everything else that’s like happening in the background.

[00:04:36] Jesse: So yeah, the in person was definitely. A little bit more fun, a little less weird miscommunications situation. And obviously like no real tech issues aside from the setup difficulty. Yeah. Well,

[00:04:49] Angela: I don’t know how interesting this is to anyone listening, but the, the like main challenge we had with the in person setup was like, the way that remote work works is that we each have our own mics.

[00:05:00] Angela: We each are like dialing in. So we each have. Separate video feeds and audio feeds. So like, you know, the two of us are kind of a mess. So sometimes we’re like talk over each other. We’re like laughing over each other, someone like burps or like does something funny. And we can always like fake it because we can cut out like one person’s video or audio and it wouldn’t disturb the other person’s thing.

[00:05:22] Angela: But when it was in person, it was like, oh shit. We realized how like annoying we are. we’re like taco for each other. Oh, Yeah, cause it was all one feed. So it was like, well, here we are.

[00:05:33] Jesse: well, I’ll, I will interject with a listener question. Let us know. Do you want us to keep in the fuckups because we can do that.

[00:05:43] Jesse: And you guys can see all of the messiness behind the production.

[00:05:48] Angela: I mean, truly, I don’t think anyone realizes how chaotic we usually are in our recordings. Very. Yeah. So I think largely what we were going to use this episode for was kind of reflecting like then versus now, you know, when we first started and how it’s progressed, um, I mean, starting with kind of like how we started this thing and like why we started this thing versus kind of intent now, for sure.

[00:06:14] Angela: This originally started as like a hobby, right? Like I remember. You know, start of the pandemic is when we started this podcast. Mm-hmm it was like, you know, we’re two years in, so it’s end of March was like our first published, oh gosh, episode peak, shut down. You know, the two weeks to the, what did we say?

[00:06:30] Angela: It was like two weeks to squash the curve or flatten the curve or whatever. Flatten

[00:06:35] Jesse: the curve flatten

[00:06:36] Angela: into the, yeah. It was like around that time. And you know, it had already been more than two weeks, but I think we’re like, oh, this won’t be forever. Let’s just like, find something to like entertain ourselves while we’re bored.

[00:06:48] Angela: Mm-hmm . And I remember approaching you, like, would you be interested in this? And luckily you were mm-hmm and we just like did shits and giggles and we didn’t know what the hell we were doing. I think we tried like. You know, now we use squad that’s our like main recording platform. But I think we tried every single one that was out there.

[00:07:07] Angela: Yeah. Like all the streaming things, but we never had this as, like, it was always gonna be like a side thing of like, you know, after work or like spare time that we can find. And then yeah, two years later, it. Definitely been the most consistent thing. I think either of us has been doing outside of work and personal relationships, like you said, mm-hmm

[00:07:31] Angela: And as we discuss a few episodes back, like at least on my end, I’m making this full time because of like how meaningful I found this podcast to be and brings me a lot of joy. Yeah. Aw,

[00:07:47] Jesse: yay. Well, I will say on my, on my part, the beginning’s very much the same. I was like, oh, you wanna make a podcast? Is it easy?

[00:07:56] Jesse: And you were like, yes, you could just do like this. And I was like, okay, because I was, I was basically just like, oh, I’m gonna like talk to you like every week. That sounds awesome. Yeah. And, um, I do feel like what’s changes, although it’s still not my full-time gig. I feel like the topics that we embark on are a lot more aggressive.

[00:08:15] Jesse: It’s not the right word. , they’re a lot more. In depth. I feel like real, like when we started, it was mostly just like us speculating about stuff, which sometimes it still is that. But I do feel like we brought in a lot more interesting topics and some more serious conversations. Mm-hmm that people have really vibed with.

[00:08:32] Jesse: And. That’s been really interesting for me because it’s fun to even after knowing you for so long, you know, you never know everything mm-hmm about the other person. Right. And so as we pick new topics, I’m like, oh, cool. Like, I didn’t know, you thought of this this way. Or you had this opinion about this something.

[00:08:52] Jesse: And so, yeah, it’s definitely been just like a really fun experience. And also just all the guests that we’ve had have been. A, a lot of fun to talk, talk with them and see what their li like world live perspective is. So, yeah. Yeah. It’s been a really, it what’s the word rewarding experience. Mm,

[00:09:11] Angela: yeah.

[00:09:11] Angela: Rewarding. Yes. Um, well, we’ll talk about we’ll circle back on the guest. Thing in a bit, but yeah, I, I agree with what you just said. I feel like the topics that we bring, I mean, again, then versus now, right? Like when we first started this thing, I think we really were using it more as our own means of like exploring our identity.

[00:09:32] Angela: Right. Because of the whole, like thing was like, are we Asian enough or American enough doesn’t feel like either. And like, let’s explore what this means. And I do think in the beginning it started a little bit more surface level where we kind of hit the. Classic things that people wanna talk about when it comes to this identity.

[00:09:50] Angela: So like model minority myth and like career trajectory. And what was it called? Bamboo ceiling. Yeah. Not the classic yeah. Bamboo ceiling. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Yeah. And of course that’s important, but I don’t think we were delving as deep. Yeah. And now, like, at least for me, hopefully for you too. I feel like the subjects that we talk about now, like we do go so deep that honestly, this is like my second form of therapy.

[00:10:16] Angela: Mm-hmm like what? I’m not with my therapist. I’m like, I’m working at a lot of my oh shit through this

[00:10:21] Jesse: podcast. Oh my God. 100%. It’s like, it is kind of like therapy because I feel like the first season, it, it was very. Surface level topics mm-hmm and surface level conversations. And then kind of, as we ran out of surface things to talk about, we were like, oh wait, like, you know, what are the things, you know, when we’re planning everything, like, what are the things that really interested us?

[00:10:42] Jesse: I think, interested other people. And those were the topics, which were like the most real. And that’s why I was like telling you recently when I was like, oh, like I said, so. My new company. There’s this tradition of like, when you join, you send an all company email. That’s like, hi, this is me. Like, here’s me.

[00:11:01] Jesse: And so I did that. I, I wrote that I started talking, I didn’t put the link cause I was like, uh, like, I don’t know this is explicit content, but I was like, ask me about it. And somebody did. And I was like, oh, , there’s so much stuff on here that I don’t know if I want, like people that I’ve never really met yet to know about me.

[00:11:17] Jesse: So yeah, it is very personal.

[00:11:20] Angela: Yeah, I agree. It’s super vulnerable. And well, I mean, to your point earlier about like the raw versus polished thing, right? Yeah. I think that is why people initially were interested in podcasts is like, I mean the easiest way to describe it is like, it’s like radio, but everyone can do it.

[00:11:38] Angela: But honestly, the, I think the best performing ones are usually ones that are more raw, like less produced, right? Like there’s certain, there’s a niche for the ones that like, basically sound like a TV show. Audio only, but a lot of the good ones are because it’s like the people, the hosts really share like a lot about themselves and you feel like you’re in this like intimate conversation with them.

[00:11:59] Angela: And that’s, what’s interesting to people. So. You know, we’re putting a lot of ourselves into this and hopefully it’s resonating with folks that we aren’t really shielding a whole lot. When we like talk about these topics, we are just kind of like presenting exactly what we think and our experiences and, um, I think, I, I think we’ve discussed this, but we wanna do a little bit more of that too.

[00:12:22] Angela: Like a lot of times with these topics, I think we speculate on, you know, like this is how I feel and like, something like that, but a lot of times we don’t go into, like, this is a specific experience that I had that relates to that. And maybe we’ll crack open a little bit more of that vulnerability and the.

[00:12:41] Angela: Upcoming

[00:12:41] Jesse: episodes. Well, I think I need a drink for that.

[00:12:44] Angela: well, go for it. It’s uh, 10:00 AM for you in California for once we’re almost like flip flopped. Yes. On time zones. Reverse. Yeah. So Jesse is calling in from our hometown or fine California, my

[00:12:59] Jesse: bedroom, the bedroom that I lived and grew up in that you can’t see anything else.

[00:13:02] Jesse: Oh God.

[00:13:03] Angela: Is that weird? Is that weird for you?

[00:13:06] Jesse: Um, It’s a, it is a little bit, every time I come back because it’s kind of like a shrine to me.

[00:13:13] Angela: and I am dialing in from Chicago. We just got here two nights ago and we’re gonna be here for like a week and a half. Um, but I was telling Jesse, before we hit record, it’s like, obviously we record like a little bit in advance of when we publish.

[00:13:27] Angela: So we have some time to do the editing and whatever. So this. March 12th. And it’s randomly the day Chicago celebrates St. Patty’s like it’s a full five days before the actual day of St. Patrick’s day, but they like always celebrate, I guess, a Saturday before, even if it’s like almost a full week before.

[00:13:48] Angela: And I didn’t know that slash forgot. So it’s like a little bit of a mess. Yeah. If you like laughing and like drunk people or whatever it’s cause it’s St. And I’m in a

[00:13:59] Jesse: hotel. It’s it’s surprisingly quiet. I didn’t really hear anything until that. Oh, okay. That moment of people laughing and

[00:14:05] Angela: talking. Well, there may be more sounds so sorry.

[00:14:08] Angela: You’ll. Hey listeners, wondering how you can support us. The biggest way is by increasing our visibility by following us on Instagram at where are you from pod on TikTok at, but where are you really from subscribing to our YouTube channel under, but where are you really from podcast rating and reviewing us on apple podcasts and telling your friends the more people we can get to listen to the show, the more we can continue spotlighting different perspectives and stories.

[00:14:34] Angela: And if you feel so inclined, we’re also accepting donations@buymeacoffee.com slash where are you from? Thanks. Y’all well, let’s hop around a little. You mentioned guests earlier. Mm-hmm um, I think we’re reflecting back on kind of like favorite moments. So do you have it’s feels a little like, uh, favorite children here.

[00:14:56] Angela: Yeah. But do you have a favorite guest

[00:14:59] Jesse: that we have? Oh, that is really difficult. I have to say probably it’s a tie between Anna and cherry because I, I, okay. So I like those conversations because I learned a lot during the conversation. Mm-hmm, it wasn’t adult conversation. Mm-hmm like, not that any of our guests are dull, but sometimes you guys don’t see that there are like awkward.

[00:15:29] Jesse: Because it is like, it’s like the first time you meet someone. So it’s like, sometimes you just, we have like a thing, you know, general prompts of like, we wanna, what we wanna talk about. But sometimes it just gets into like weird dull air time. Mm-hmm and, um, but I felt like those conversations were very lively.

[00:15:44] Jesse: I learned a lot of things about, um, each of their expertise and their knowledge and their perspectives. And it made me think. Certain things differently afterwards. So I was like, oh yeah, this is like a really cool to have this conversation with this person, because I don’t think otherwise I may have gotten the opportunity to meet someone like that or to talk to someone like that.

[00:16:08] Jesse: Nice. What about you?

[00:16:09] Angela: Yeah. Well, before I dress that, I just, so people know you mention this, but like a lot of times our guests, we did, we didn’t know them ahead of time. Like got what? Most of the time in the early days. Yeah. We were pulling from like our friends and whatnot, that kind of like tie into topics and we still tap into them now.

[00:16:26] Angela: And then, but like, A lot of times, literally it’s like, we just kind of like cold outreach or their publicists reach out to us or whatever. And we connect and we think it’ll be a good show. And then we meet them the 15 minutes prior to like the recording starting. And so it, you don’t, especially when it’s remote, right.

[00:16:45] Angela: You like, you don’t always are. You’re not always able to like, make that connection. Yeah. Without the body language and the in person, whatever. So yeah. You are not seeing a lot of. Awkward shit that we got out. Sometimes ,

[00:17:01] Jesse: it’s a good time though. It really is. Yeah. So your yours, your favorite baby is

[00:17:06] Angela: mine. I also have two that tie, um, in my heart.

[00:17:11] Angela: One is my dad, honestly. Okay. He was our first

[00:17:14] Jesse: guest. That’s true. Your dad an yeah, he was, he’s such

[00:17:18] Angela: a. He’s so unexpected. I feel like a lot of the stuff he says, you’re just like what? Especially him being my dad. So I like feel like I know him to a certain extent. And then he says something and I’m like, what would’ve

[00:17:31] Jesse: said.

[00:17:31] Jesse: Wait, so sidebar. Would you ever do marijuana with your dad?

[00:17:36] Angela: Oh, um, no, but not actually, because it’s me and my dad. I just don’t like doing weed anymore after doing psychedelic. Okay. Understood. Got it. I mean, if he was like, I really wanna do this with you as like a bonding thing. Sure. Maybe I guess he smoked before?

[00:17:56] Angela: I

[00:17:56] Jesse: know, I know. That’s why I’m asking. I know your dad is like, I feel like my parents know that and they’re like, my

[00:18:02] Angela: dad’s like a free spirit in a. Old man body. Yeah. Um, so yeah, my dad is one and then I actually, I really liked our conversation with other Anna, um, Anna and Ziad when we did the nine 11 episode, because I mean, it’s something that we are going to try to do more of as we go forward with the podcast, but I like branching out.

[00:18:27] Angela: We started this around Asian American identity, but the more that we talk to people, the more we’re seeing like crossovers and shared experiences. And I really like that conversation because it was definitely like, I mean, we were reflecting on the Arab American experience post nine 11 and like, you and I are just observers to that.

[00:18:44] Angela: Right? Like we couldn’t like speak to that firsthand, but as they were sharing their experiences, like, I think I learned a lot. perspective and like how people treat other people that like, you know, we firsthand wouldn’t have experienced necessarily without hearing them share. But also I found a lot of connection points.

[00:19:06] Angela: Like I think Z mentioned that a couple times. He’s like, I mean, even our podcast name, they were like, I feel weird kinship to that phrase. Yeah. Yeah. Even though it’s not, you didn’t write it with me in mind. Yeah. I, I like that because it’s kind of like the shows, the potential of our kind of like ranching out of this community and like how many more perspectives and stories that we can like envelop in.

[00:19:34] Jesse: nice. Well, speaking of, since we are already talk about guests, we should just talk about the associate thing. What’s your favorite topic that we’ve discussed so far? We’ve done so many, honestly,

[00:19:45] Angela: we’ve done so many topics. Um, I. Okay. So I thought a little bit about this before we recorded. Okay. And I, I think I goofed up because I lumped in topic and format into the same thing.

[00:19:57] Angela: Um, I enjoy most of our topics, honestly. Like there’s a, I mean, you and I spend a lot of time brainstorming which topics we want to talk about. Yes. And we only put in the effort, if it’s something we actually have like a genuine interest in anyway. Yeah. So I don’t have like one topic that stands out to me.

[00:20:15] Angela: But format wise, I have thought about this. Who knows if our listeners actually like it, but for me, the most fun formats were anything kind of like gamified. Okay. So I really liked, um, when we did the. Fake or real COVID headlines where we did that to each other. Okay. The original go home or drunk. Yeah. I liked the prices.

[00:20:38] Angela: All right. Where we did the crossover with the real Asian podcast folks. Yes. It’s just like, it keeps it more fun for us. Right. Because it’s like less just talking. It’s like, who knows what’s gonna happen? It’s a little, like more lighthearted and yeah. Nice. I dunno. Those are fun for me. Okay. Yeah. That

[00:20:54] Jesse: makes sense.

[00:20:55] Jesse: Um, I will do topic and I probably am skewing based off of just recency, but I really like the fortune teller one we did because Uhhuh it’s the same kind of thing. Like, although my parents were not on the pod and your parents were not on the pod, it like forced me to have a conversation with them about it.

[00:21:11] Jesse: Cuz I had to ask to know to report back basically like what their perspective is and like what their knowledge is. So actually it’s like very interesting conversation to have with them. And I feel like the older they are. And the farther away that I am, because I mean, it’s not like I’m getting farther away.

[00:21:30] Jesse: I am exactly where I am, like distance wise all the time for the most part. Yeah. Um, they’re like much more open to just like blabbing about random stuff. So like we started with that topic and they were still talking about it, but just like so many different facets of it that I was like, oh, I just needed.

[00:21:48] Jesse: You know the basics, like, I don’t know what

[00:21:49] Angela: this, I wanted, like a one sentence answer and

[00:21:51] Jesse: you, yeah. I was like, I don’t know what the rest of this is. Like you guys are talking about, it was like very detailed. And I was like, yeah, I think it just goes to show, like, for me, I was like, oh, I didn’t know. You guys knew all this stuff.

[00:22:01] Jesse: Like, yeah. Why do you know all this stuff? like, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things. And, um, so it was just a good topic to help me talk to more people. Specif my parents. Yeah. And have conversations with. Yeah. Yes,

[00:22:16] Angela: actually, uh, I did think about this now. You’re reminding me that I did think about this. I, um, I don’t have a specific episode like you of like fortune teller.

[00:22:25] Angela: Yeah. But I agree. I think all the ones where we’ve had to ask our parents for like supplemental information or experiences, I’ve enjoyed all of those topics because so. One that jumped out at me, but is not necessarily like favorite favorite, but for Halloween during our first like, round of doing the pod, we did, um, scary stories from the motherland mm-hmm and we ask our parents to like, share a real story each that we could talk about mm-hmm um, but like all, all of them.

[00:22:54] Angela: Right. We also did the names episode. Yeah. Where we delved into like Chinese names. That was how we were named. Yeah. And. To your point, it’s like the perfect excuse to force us to talk to our parents and about things that they wouldn’t normally talk to us about. Yeah. Um, I think that’s been really cool.

[00:23:13] Angela: Like you said, like they’re getting older, we’re getting older, you know, like just things are changing. Yeah. And like, it’s nice to be able to like get into some media conversations with them. Mm-hmm , you know, that wouldn’t come up otherwise, um, And as a little preview, one thing we plan to do for this upcoming batch of episodes is for mother’s day, we’re going to be interviewing our respective mamas Ooh.

[00:23:40] Angela: About their lives, because I just feel like a lot of times kids don’t. Ask they don’t care to ask or not care to ask, but they we’re also self-centered that we like don’t think often about the fact that our parents had their own lives and they were individuals before they had family and like, yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:00] Angela: What was that like for them? So I’m looking forward to doing

[00:24:03] Jesse: that episode. That me too, I feel like, you know, we, we talk, we’ve talked superficially about how we feel like generally. Uh, ABCs are like not friends with their parents. And like we’ve seen, you know, Caucasian people and they’re like friends with their parents.

[00:24:17] Jesse: Yeah. I feel like we’re finally getting to this point where it’s. we are making that connection. I feel like, like we kind of expect the parent to do that, but then I’m like, maybe that’s just not their, you know, that’s just not their judge because like they have this expectation that we’re family and there’s like, no need to know each other on that level where it’s all just like, assumed where we’re gonna be family forever.

[00:24:37] Jesse: But then like, because we want that friendship, we want that connection. It’s like up to us to really initiate that and try to like, get that going. So. I’m excited to see what they have to say. Hopefully nothing depressing

[00:24:52] Angela: well, well, yeah, we’ll find out I, yeah, we’ll find out. Um, but I agree. I think it is onus is really on us.

[00:24:58] Angela: And I think a lot of that is also because they don’t know how to interact with us any other way, because it’s not like they had a good mirror with their own parent relationships.

[00:25:09] Jesse: Yeah, exactly. It’s not the kind of thing. Like, I feel like if you were to watch like seventh heaven or something and it’s Halloween time, like the dad will tell the kids like a ho like a scary story.

[00:25:20] Jesse: It’s like kind of a very traditional ish kind of thing, but it’s not something that like, Our parents would do. They wouldn’t be like, oh, it’s American Halloween. We’re gonna tell you Chinese ghost stories. Like, right.

[00:25:29] Angela: They’ve never done that. Basically. I feel like Asian parents it’s largely like a, if you didn’t ask me, I’m not gonna share it kind of thing.

[00:25:36] Angela: Or like,

[00:25:37] Jesse: they don’t think it’s worth telling it to you for some reason. Or maybe they just, I, it could be something that they just take for granted. It’s like, oh, everybody in my village knew this. . I don’t know. They just it’s maybe it’s not worth passing down or they just assume that, you know,

[00:25:54] Angela: I’m yeah.

[00:25:55] Angela: I’m excited for it because every time I’ve asked one of my parents for more information, like you said, like so much more comes out, that exactly you think is gonna come out and they they’re excited. They’re more excited than I think they’re gonna be to like, share. This

[00:26:08] Jesse: information. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I don’t, honestly, I don’t feel like they talk to each other about stuff like that.

[00:26:14] Jesse: It’s like, oh, imagine, oh, would they randomly? Yeah. Well, but like, cuz like for example, like your, your parents and my parents are friends, I talk to my friends about everything. Yeah. But I don’t know if they necessarily do the same. And so, I mean, I can just imagine like living your life, having never anyone asking.

[00:26:35] Jesse: your experience. Yeah. And someone’s like, oh, I’m interested. Can you tell me about this? You’d be like, yes. Yes. What do you wanna know? I’ve been waiting.

[00:26:45] Angela: Aw. Okay. Well, I’m excited to give our moms that chance to share everything they want to share. We’ll see. Maybe they don’t.

[00:26:54] Jesse: Maybe they don’t. Yeah, we’ll see.

[00:26:56] Jesse: Um, but yeah, no, I want to say that. I think the talking to people has been a huge. Because it’s so difficult to talk to people. And I, I think you are at more, I know you said you’re like more ambivert now where you’re like, you have like levels of extroversion and introversion you need to maintain, but I’ve always felt like when, when we have gone out together, you’ve been able to like vibe with people very well.

[00:27:24] Jesse: And I’m always really awkward when I first meet people. I’m like, I I’ve. I realized how bad it was that I basically, I have like a list of like five things that are like backup questions in case I have nothing to say so I can just be like, oh, blah. But then when I run out of those things, I’m just like Irish, I just Irish exit.

[00:27:45] Jesse: Cause I’m like, I dunno what to do. I don’t know. Really do. So the fact that I have not been a hundred percent just like on the guest episodes has been like for me,

[00:27:57] Angela: I love it. Stretch, stretch those skills. Um, no, I, I think a lot of it is more like, mm, I. Your personal perspective on what’s happening? Because I don’t feel that comfortable with new people either.

[00:28:11] Angela: Oh, okay. Like, I think it totally depends on the situation. Like if I’m with you and you’ve observed that, it’s probably because I feel really comfortable with you. Or like, there are a couple people that maybe I already know, and then you’re introducing new people. But like, if I just like walked into a room of like strangers by myself, I would not be like, ah, oh yeah, no, I would love talking to you.

[00:28:31] Angela: like, I think it’s good for us both, especially with the pandemic, having crushed all of our social skills, it’s important for us to . Yeah, for sure. We do people and practice that. And then I think the last thing we wanna talk about, like then versus now kind of thing is like what we’ve done with the podcast.

[00:28:50] Angela: Like, you know, patting ourselves on the back a little bit. Mm-hmm for some shit. Um, and I think the most it’s, it’s weird because podcasting is like a thing where. Like it’s a certain audience and it’s like, it’s it hasn’t been established that long as like a format either that there’s like an MES or anything for that kind of shit, but there’s like little nods you can have.

[00:29:12] Angela: And I think for me, the most excited I was, was definitely last year during the, um, Asian American heritage month, um, Asian American, Pacific Islander, a, a API, whatever heritage month, um, apple podcasts created like. Featured collection mm-hmm of like good Asian podcast essentially. And we got featured and I was so stoked.

[00:29:36] Angela: That felt like a really like, it legitimized us in a way I was like, did apple podcast even know who we were like it, it was kind of cool. Yeah.

[00:29:46] Jesse: Yeah. Um, I will say that every time someone sends a nice comment. Or like directly messages me. That’s like, I listened to it and I really liked it. It’s like, oh my God, that’s so nice.

[00:29:56] Jesse: Because it’s like, kind of always said at the top, like we’re spilling or like a blood in guts. so then when, so then when you hear people say that, like, I enjoy listening to that, or I really vibed with that. It’s validating cuz you’re like, okay, cool. Like. Thing that I made, that I talked about, my experience is not boring or dull or, and that people kind of understand it.

[00:30:18] Jesse: So it’s definitely like, um, it’s like a really good feeling, even when it’s just like one person being like, Hey, I really like this particular topic or episode or whatever.

[00:30:28] Angela: Yeah, well, it’s validating and it also makes it feel like it’s worth it, that we mm-hmm , you know, were vulnerable and like shared stuff.

[00:30:35] Angela: Because if even one person is like, oh my God, that’s exactly how I felt. And like, I feel seen or whatever it, like, it makes it all worthwhile mm-hmm um, and that actually does relate to another then versus now for me is like, thinking about kind of how our community has shifted. Starting this. So, I mean, podcasting is like, traditionally it’s like audio only where some people do video, like Joe Rogan or whatever, you know, they do video as like their base.

[00:31:06] Angela: Um, but it’s largely been like, you know, whatever we record and put out there as like the thing and. What’s shifted is like, you know, in that format, a lot of where we are trying to engage with people is we’re like email us. We’re like DMS or comment on Instagram or whatever. And like, we’ll talk about the episode.

[00:31:24] Angela: Um, and I felt like we got, you know, some people wrote it them, but it was not like. Oh, an overwhelming amount of engagement mm-hmm . And in the last year, I’ve, especially since, you know, quitting my job and making this full time, I have more time to like kind of curate how our things are published. And I’ve been kind of like serializing our last, um, batch of episodes so that we can.

[00:31:51] Angela: Publish short form on like Instagram reels and tech talk and stuff. And that’s been really cool because we’re reaching like a new audience and community that wasn’t there. Like, you know, not everyone has the appetite to listen to like 30 to 50 minute episodes. But if they watch like, The TLDR on some of these topics, they’re like, oh, this is cool.

[00:32:12] Angela: And like, I relate to this or like, I have questions about it or whatever. And, um, it’s been really cool because I, you know, people are so much more engaged. I feel like naturally on social media that they’re like more willing to randomly asking questions or like pipe in, on these clips. So that’s something that like, I, I want us to continue is.

[00:32:34] Angela: Kind of distributing wherever people are listening and like being willing to engage with people wherever makes the most sense to them, as opposed to like, just email us and like not having people email

[00:32:45] Jesse: us. two things. First of all, are you saying you don’t think people wanna listen to us talk for 30 plus

[00:32:51] Angela: minutes?

[00:32:52] Angela: I don’t think everyone wants to listen to 31. So it’s no

[00:32:57] Jesse: um, second thing, I kind of agree. I think one of the. Maybe like compliment additional accomplishments or like rah things that I should mention is that, uh, I definitely feel like you’re not afraid to take a different direction on stuff. So like we’ve tried so many different things and when it hasn’t worked, we just kind of like, okay, it didn’t work on to next thing.

[00:33:18] Jesse: And I think that that’s. really important in a creative pursuit because sometimes you’re so married to this baby. You’re like, oh my God, this is my baby. I’m not gonna do anything with it because I love it. It’s my creative output. Yeah. That you forget that. Maybe it’s not that good. And I think what’s been really great is that we’ve in the short two years, we’ve done so many different, different things taken.

[00:33:42] Jesse: The out the format and stuff in different directions and just been open to just being like tossing something that doesn’t work or changing something where we’re like, that doesn’t make any sense.

[00:33:51] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Even though we’re two years in, which is the topic of today, it’s like, I don’t feel like we’re so settled in exactly like the format or the types of things, or like, you know, we fluctuate a lot between like lighthearted things, like serious topics and like yeah.

[00:34:08] Angela: We change things up. And I, I think it’s great that we experiment exactly because it also keeps it more fun for us. Right.

[00:34:14] Jesse: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It’s a different thing. Don’t want us, us to be bored. oh my God. You do. you do not, you

[00:34:20] Angela: would not wanna listen if we were bored over

[00:34:23] Jesse: every, I mean, you might, but you would probably be like, what is happening you know?

[00:34:28] Angela: Yeah. Well, on that note, let’s move to our clothes, our fortune cookie sweet sheet. Um, fave part about doing the podcast, or maybe we already kind of covered this.

[00:34:43] Jesse: Yeah, I think. Like for me, it’s like a thing on the side. That’s my own that I get to work on. And I I’ve talked to you about it. I think it’s, it’s nice to have something on the side that you are working on.

[00:34:57] Jesse: Just to say, like I have. Just to feel like you’re not like a hundred percent in just like one thing or the other. Um, and sometimes that’s what work feels like. I, it can feel a little overwhelmed. I’m like, oh my God, that just work. I just have work. Um, and so it’s really important for me to figure out like different things that I can do with my time that has a creative expression and output.

[00:35:18] Jesse: Um, so I’m just not spending all of my energy on work. Yeah.

[00:35:23] Angela: Yeah. Um, for me, it’s for sure what we already talked about with like the, you know, connecting with people who write us in and comment and stuff and ask us questions cuz that makes it feel more live. Yeah. Like a live thing to, as opposed to like just this thing that we put out.

[00:35:39] Angela: Um, but the other is definitely like learning new things all the time. Whether that’s the topic, the guest, or also. I mean, we’ve learned a lot of skills. Yeah. Honestly, to like put out this podcast, you did like merge for a little bit. Yeah. It was a lot stuff. I was doing Etsy. It was a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:55] Angela: I’ve like tried a lot of things and also like, yeah, it, it does make me feel more creative too. Like now with the like serializing stuff on for social, like I’m learning a lot of stuff to be able to do that. And like, it’s a lot of work, honestly. And sometimes people ask, like, why wouldn’t you just kind of like outsource that?

[00:36:15] Angela: Like you can pay someone. To like, edit the show or like to put out these social media clips or whatever. And I’m like, yeah, I can, but also it’s hard work, but it’s like kind of the fun part. Yeah. It’s like, it that’s the creative part. It’s like, we decide what our voice is in the end with like how we edit things.

[00:36:33] Angela: Yeah. And like what we think is interesting to create clips of and that kind of stuff. So I’m like, I mean, that’s the fun part. So. .

[00:36:41] Jesse: Yeah. And what about, what’s your favorite other podcast or video podcast or audio something video combination that you’re also into right now. . Yeah,

[00:36:55] Angela: well, so as you know, I spend all my time on TikTok now.

[00:36:59] Angela: Um, so , I don’t listen to any like new podcast per se, but I think we also broaden this to like, kind of to any UGC type thing. Right. Mm-hmm and I have three creators that I like really, really love, um, on TikTok. Okay. And. So one of them is like super famous. So like, if everyone who watches TikTok is for like, that’s all news, but, um, it’s this guy who does like animal talks.

[00:37:27] Angela: So basically every, um, every video of his he’s like facts about like an animal that you didn’t know, but he’s so funny in the way that he delivers it, because, so for example, he talks about orcas or killer whales a lot. And then he’ll just like, be rattling off the facts and he’ll be like these murder Oreos, like blah, blah, blah

[00:37:50] Angela: So he has like this like dark humor that he has attached to it. Yeah. And then he genuinely knows like so much random shit that you’re like, what? Um, so his name is, and sorry if I’m butchering it. Mama do NA NA I’m not sure. Um, but he also, yeah, it’s cool because you know, like usernames, you’re like, that’s definitely your birthday.

[00:38:11] Angela: He has 97 in it. So I’m like, damn, you’re seven years younger than me, but he has. Yeah, gen Z is killing it. He has like, I don’t know, like, like 14 million followers or some shit like that. And he, um, is publishing a book that there’s a pre-order out now about like animal, like animal facts and it’s, I’m sure it’s written and it’s like very humorous way.

[00:38:31] Angela: So like go him. Um, second person. I like is someone named Austin Cho. So, um, originally I came across this stuff because I guess I was watching like Asian creator things, but he often isn’t talking about Asian stuff, his like little niche that he’s found that’s been really cool is he’s like, um, you’re cool.

[00:38:50] Angela: Single uncle. So like how we’ve talked about like you being the gum or whatever, right. In the future vibes, it’s like him having. Skits where you are, like his nephew or niece or whatever. And he’s like, kind of validating you of like, whatever your parents are kind of, or like there’s drama in your life.

[00:39:08] Angela: Yeah. And she’s always kind of there for you. And it’s like funny and it’s so like heartwarming and it’s, it’s kind of like the par parental figure. Everyone wished they had that was like accepting and like fun and yeah. So. His stuff is really cool. And then the last person is, um, this girl that I’ve semi very recently came across harissa.

[00:39:29] Angela: I don’t know how you pronounce it. It’s a C H C H a R I S S a it’s a white girl, but she like caught my attention because her videos are largely about her time when she lived in Thailand. Like she did a master’s program in Thailand. Okay. Um, and she’s just like, So weird. So her, her like bio is something like chaotic, but Fu chaotic, but like heartwarming or something like that.

[00:39:55] Angela: And it, she, the way that she talks is like all over the place and she’s just like, kind of weird, but like in the most heartwarming way. So yeah, I really enjoy her. She’s just like a little, she was just like bouncing all over the walls, but like, Kind of socially awkward, but like the, the story is actually interesting.

[00:40:14] Angela: So anyways, I like these three. That

[00:40:16] Jesse: sounds very cute. That sounds very cute.

[00:40:19] Angela: Yes. How about yourself?

[00:40:20] Jesse: Um, okay. Well, not surprisingly, all my shit is gay shit, but, um, I’ve been following and watching all this content from these drag Queens for a while now. So I really like this podcast called bald in the beautiful, and it’s just.

[00:40:35] Jesse: They’re just like riffing about random topics. And it is, it is sometimes what I was talking about, where it’s like, you’re bored and you’re just talking about random stuff and it is like completely unhinged. And that’s kind of why I like it. It’s just like a crazy chaos and like, kind of like what you’re talking about with your last girl where you’re just like, what is happening that, but I’m still so entertaining.

[00:40:55] Jesse: I don’t understand what’s happening, but I’m still so entertained right now. My second is. Uh, Rob and Rob Anderson, he’s this guy that does this, these like small little like skits and stuff. And, um, he’s also written like a few, like just funny book things and like made some different, like, funny me he’s, he’s pretty, pretty entertaining.

[00:41:15] Angela: What’s his main like topics or whatever niche that he does

[00:41:18] Jesse: skits on. It’s mostly gay stuff, but he had like, he has this series called gay science. Um, there was another mini one called boyfriend. Where it’s like you, you know, those people. Oh, I don’t know if you do, but like there there’s this like trope in the gay community where like two white guys who look identical will date each other.

[00:41:38] Jesse: It’s called boyfriend twins. Oh, that’s funny. Um, and he’s also just done like some other random. Comedy skits, um, and written some like ridiculous, like merch stuff that people really liked. Yeah.

[00:41:52] Angela: Okay. That’s fun. Well, lots of new recommendations for you listeners. I think, uh, we’re all about those.

[00:42:02] Angela: Empowering creators now, since we are, we’re also in this

[00:42:05] Jesse: world empowering the already big creators. Is that already bigger than us creator? yeah. Yeah. I mean,

[00:42:11] Angela: I, I am inspired by and hope for more success for people that are already successful because they, they all start from zero too. So it’s like, it’s encouraging to see greed.

[00:42:22] Angela: Well, two years in, we did, I feel

[00:42:25] Jesse: like I do that a little Pook.

[00:42:30] Angela: Or like in little mermaid where that little, um, seahorse is like blowing a little trumpet in the beginning. Yeah.

[00:42:37] Jesse: Don’t remember. It’s been a while. but wait, whatever, whichever way.

[00:42:43] Angela: All right. Well, you made it with us. Y’all uh, we made it to the end of the episode.

[00:42:48] Angela: Uh, write us in or comment or like hit. Wherever you prefer to talk to us, but our email is tell us where you’re from@gmail.com. If you have feedback or reflections, favorite things. Things you hated about what we’ve tried in the past that we should avoid any of that stuff. Because as we mentioned, we are continuing to experiment all the time.

[00:43:10] Angela: So let us know. And oh, one thing I forgot to plug is as you know, since the last batch we’ve been recording and edit or posting our video episodes on YouTube. Um, but I am going to be abroad for the next like year, essentially starting, hopefully. Two three weeks. So I’ll also be doing kind of like travel diary type things, um, on our YouTube and TikTok.

[00:43:36] Angela: So check this out too. So you know where the F in the world I. One favorite for sub

[00:43:41] Jesse: series where the F in the world is Angela. Yes. And tune in next week for another fresh new episode until then bitches.

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Love or Hate Sailor Moon Crystal?


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Angela: Hey everyone. I’m Angela Lin

[00:00:01] Jesse: And I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really from? This week, we are redoing something we did in the past where we get drunk on the episode. And if you liked it, we’re adding something extra special. This time we’re going to be doing a review of season one episode, one of sailor, moon crystal.

[00:00:23] Jesse: Yes.

[00:00:24] Angela: Yes. What are you drinking? Jesse?

[00:00:28] Jesse: I’m drinking. Whiskey that was in a glass that was formally a candle, which I thought I washed properly, but still tastes like candle. Can we just, can you

[00:00:39] Angela: just explain, why did you think a candle glass would be a good,

[00:00:44] Jesse: okay. Well, because, because they’re like, okay, once you’re done with the candle, you can like take the WIC out and reuse the.

[00:00:52] Jesse: Oh, they

[00:00:52] Angela: literally said that cheat. Yes. Oh,

[00:00:54] Jesse: okay. It’s like, it’s in like the whole, like, you know, like, um, sustainability crap. And I was like, oh, okay, perfect. I’ll reuse it. So, but I don’t know if it’s just cuz this so fragrant that it, it tastes like that. Yeah. Or I don’t know. It’s just, yeah, it was a mistake.

[00:01:11] Jesse: I’ll probably use it to plant something in mistake. Well, you live

[00:01:13] Angela: and you learn Jesse, you live

[00:01:15] Jesse: in your exactly. Yeah. Okay. How many of those do I have?

[00:01:18] Angela: Um, a lifetime of live and life, maybe. I think maybe we all do. We all do and signature me. I’m always drinking a beer. So yeah. Yeah. Whatever I island logger is what it says.

[00:01:31] Angela: Hi Hawaii, AKA island, whatever. Any hose. All right. So why did we decide sailor moon? I think we, so this is us testing out kind of like a newish format. We did get drunk the last time. The last time though, what we did was, um, it was like peak COVID and we did like, guess if it’s a fake or real yeah.

[00:01:52] Angela: Ridiculous. COVID headline. And that was really fun, but we are testing out a new format where we watch content. And get drunk and comment on it or review it. Um, and so we’re just kind of like testing out different essentially like Asian content. Um, so get some representation in there and

[00:02:12] Jesse: also like cooler, Roger and rope.

[00:02:16] Jesse: Eber, Roger

[00:02:17] Angela: EER. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:19] Jesse: Whatever those, you know, you know what I’m talking about? Those, those people they’re different. If

[00:02:22] Angela: they’re a nineties kid, you know what that shit is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and yeah, sailor, moon is something that is super nostalgic for us too, because we definitely grew up watching it.

[00:02:31] Angela: So. I mean, I remember every Saturday, right? Saturday morning cartoons. That was always like one of my shit, but I

[00:02:37] Jesse: watched, I think I only watched it when I was at your house. Cuz you had it on

[00:02:40] Angela: like PHS. Oh yeah. Y’all didn’t have cable. That’s also part of it

[00:02:44] Jesse: knew. Wait, what was it on cart network. I don’t

[00:02:47] Angela: remember actually where I was watching it.

[00:02:50] Angela: Okay. Or, or maybe you’re right. Maybe I only watched it on VHS. Like, did my parents bring it back from Asia

[00:02:55] Jesse: or something? I feel like, I feel like, oh, I feel like

[00:02:58] Angela: interesting. Okay. I don’t know. Well, anyways, grew, grew up watching it as kids. I was like super obsessed. I had a lot of toys. Like I had like figuring I had like sailor, Jupiter, figurine.

[00:03:08] Angela: I had maybe the compact,

[00:03:11] Jesse: but also like I constantly forget cuz we talk about like, we talk a lot. Asian content. And we’re mostly talking about live action stuff that like people are in, but like there was a whole wave of stuff. Cartoon wise. Mm-hmm that has always been really popular that I feel like people forget came from Japan because they dub it.

[00:03:30] Jesse: So then you like, can’t really tell where it originated from. So like Pokemon, sailor, moon, Naruto, like all these like really great enemies that I feel. Are kind of forgotten. Yeah.

[00:03:42] Angela: And actually we were just talking about this because we made just such a big kerfuffle during the squid game episode where we’re like dubs suck and subtitles are way better, but cartoon, well, anime is tough because I, you know, as I’ve gotten older, I do still like, like when Ramona and I watch, um, animated movies from Japan, we do still watch it in Japanese with English subtitles mm-hmm

[00:04:06] Angela: But when I was growing up, I do think we mostly watched dubbed and we didn’t. Like also, we didn’t know there was an option let’s Bero but like, yeah, you were saying earlier, right? Like when we were off cam, but, um, cartoon is harder to even notice the difference because the lips don’t necessarily their mouths are.

[00:04:22] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So it is what it

[00:04:23] Jesse: is. Yeah. They’re not doing that. It’s not like advanced lip reading. I’m sure. If you ask someone to lipid, it would be like, mom, I’m like there’s no, there’s no. Yeah. Like, I don’t

[00:04:31] Angela: know if you ever watched rhyme on the, you know, that like. Oh, I loved him right. Shouting down.

[00:04:37] Jesse: That was always in Japanese.

[00:04:39] Angela: No dude, because I watched it in Taiwan really. And it was in Chinese and so I always thought it was like a Chinese show that’s but not Japanese. Yeah. That’s right.

[00:04:48] Jesse: So yeah. Yeah. Um, so for those of you who are listening, you should definitely watch this stuff on YouTube because I literally just spilled water all over myself.

[00:04:58] Jesse: and Angela was like, I’m just gonna keep going. I’m not gonna, it’s fine. But I just spilled water all over

[00:05:05] Angela: my and let’s be real. This is like, not a like first time occurrence type thing. Like we’re always doing random shit on camera that you can’t tell if you’re only listening to the audio. But yeah, that’s a good plug is like, if y’all have a notice for the last.

[00:05:20] Angela: 12 episodes or whatever. We started doing YouTube. We started uploading our videos to YouTube. So go there and check it out. If you prefer to see our antics live or quote

[00:05:31] Jesse: unquote, live at home with the two of us in two different homes,

[00:05:37] Angela: our adopted child that lives in a virtually different location than either parent

[00:05:43] Jesse: Um, should we get into it maybe? So, yeah. Sailor moon. I for those of you, I don’t know who, how many people watch Taylor moon, but like preamble for sailor moon. Like basically it’s like kids in middle school who are called to fight evil because their past lives like were like these like warriors and stuff.

[00:06:02] Jesse: Um, and they have

[00:06:03] Angela: magic powers and they’re each, like each one is a different planet except for sailor moon. Who’s the moon.

[00:06:10] Jesse: Who’s the moon. Yeah. And the moon, the moon is like the most powerful planet for some reason. Like, it’s just very strange. We never

[00:06:18] Angela: questioned any of the shit either when we were growing up.

[00:06:21] Angela: So let’s just honor that . But, yeah. Okay. So I think we’re gonna pick apart things that we, we just rewatched. Yeah. Season one episode, one which we talked about is essentially a reboot of the original, like it’s actually plot wise the same as the original. Maybe they tweaked some things, but like pretty much the same.

[00:06:42] Angela: And certain things jumped out at us as we were rewatching it. So I think that’s what we’ll discuss the first of which is that you mentioned that they’re quote unquote kids. This is the most ridiculous thing. Now rewatching it as an adult. I’m like you are full grown woman. Like all of them are drawn, like their fully grown woman with hu you know, like the boobs, the hourglass, like eight.

[00:07:05] Angela: Long legs and like sharp noses and beautiful lashes and all that shit. And I’m like, you’re 14.

[00:07:13] Jesse: Okay. Yeah. And also they all look the same. I mean, like, I feel like I noticed it less in the original series for some reason, but in this. New one. They, they literally all look the same. It could be literally like Tilda, wooden, anime wearing

[00:07:28] Angela: different wigs.

[00:07:28] Angela: Yeah. I think if you actually put every character, like side by side, you would notice that the only thing different it’s, you’re just mixing and matching hair, eye color, and outfit, but like face exactly the same face and body. Exactly the same. Yeah.

[00:07:43] Jesse: Yeah. And so speaking of that, like the hair and the eye color is wild.

[00:07:47] Jesse: Even in the original one, it was wild. Like I was like, none of these people have. Asian people, hair or Asian people, eye color. They all have like weird wacky colored hair. I feel like you, I never questioned the fact that some of them had like blue hair. I was like, oh, work, they just have blue

[00:08:04] Angela: hair. well, yeah, there are like wacky ones, but can we also talk about like, why is the default that they just look white?

[00:08:12] Angela: Like sailor, moon is blonde, so is Venus and then other others, even that are brunette, it’s like very clearly like white people, brunette, not Asian people brunette, but they’re supposed to be in Japan. They’re speaking Japanese. So like, why do we think. All anime really is like defaulting to make the characters look Western.

[00:08:34] Jesse: I don’t know. Do you think it’s like a bad boy thing? Bad boy. Like maybe they’re not actually, like, they’re not actually Western, but they’re, I don’t know. Edgy cuz they have turned clear. I don’t know. Like it’s like Naruto also has blonde hair, but he’s like the, it actually in Naruto, everyone else looks fairly Asian ish, but he’s like the only one he has blonde hair,

[00:08:56] Angela: but.

[00:08:56] Angela: Don’t you think there’s a little bit of, like, I’m not trying to like, make everything about race like that. That’s boring to make everything about race, but like, it is a little bit, yeah, for me, I think it’s a little bit of like, because it’s supposed to be a fantasy, right? Like all it helps them stand out, helps them stand out and like feel, yeah, I guess a little special, like if Naruto is the only white, like whiteish person and everyone else is Asian and he’s a main, he’s a main person, like.

[00:09:22] Angela: don’t you think there’s a little bit of like glorification of like Western. Yeah. You know, blah, blah. It’s just a

[00:09:29] Jesse: little weird. I don’t know if it, it, I don’t know if it necessarily is glorification of it, but it’s more just like, it’s more noticeable or

[00:09:37] Angela: maybe because I said the word fantasy, like maybe it’s because content entertainment is supposed to help you like escape.

[00:09:44] Angela: And maybe if they look too Asian, you know, maybe like it would not help the Japanese audience, which is who this was originally created for, like is escape their day to day enough,

[00:09:56] Jesse: maybe. Well, the things I can’t say about sailor movies, I feel like what I wanted to say was in natu. I can see why they did that for him.

[00:10:04] Jesse: In most of the series, he’s like an outsider. Like literally they’re like, you’re an outsider. Like you’re, you don’t belong here because he’s like the host of this magical creature, that’s like really dangerous. So I can see why they gave him that look because it paints him very clearly as an outsider.

[00:10:22] Jesse: Right. Like he doesn’t look like everybody else either. Um, but for single moon, I kind of, when we watched the first episode, like even her friends look kind of like different. Her mom

[00:10:33] Angela: has purple hair. Yeah.

[00:10:35] Jesse: Yeah, exactly. So like I was gonna say like, oh, maybe it’s because like they wanna make them look a little bit different because they’re aliens.

[00:10:42] Jesse: But

[00:10:42] Angela: no, but they’re not all aliens, like cuz her friends

[00:10:46] Jesse: aren’t. No, no, that’s what I mean. I, I was gonna say like, maybe it’s just a cast, like the, the sailor, the, um, the sailor Scouts, but then I was like, oh, the friends too.

[00:10:57] Angela: Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways.

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[00:11:31] Angela: Thank you. Okay, well anyways. Okay. And then going along with like, it’s not just the age thing, but like the thing about like the hourglass figure and like making everyone super like womanly, it kind of, I mean, it’s no surprise that anime or no new revelation that like anime was largely, was originally created by men for men, but I’m just like, can we not like sexualize everything because number.

[00:12:01] Angela: They’re supposed to be 14, but also we were talking about in this episode, one of the like Demonn characters is like straight up face is like sharp teeth, red eyes, like demonic looking. And then her body boobs was busty ass boobs bursting out of her. Dures and I’m like, why, why is this necessary? I feel like

[00:12:22] Jesse: there’s definitely something there where it’s kind of.

[00:12:25] Jesse: Maybe SLU Jamie, where it’s like women and like, nah, sexual things

[00:12:31] Angela: bad, or like the sexual, because she’s evil and sexuality has like a taboo thing to it. Nation different.

[00:12:39] Jesse: Maybe, maybe. I mean, it does get much weirder. Like I’m definitely jumping ahead past this episode, but in the next season when OSA shows up, so like Shea’s, um, sailor, moon and.

[00:12:52] Jesse: Tuxedo mass daughter from the future when they become, uh, king and queen of silver millennium, which is like, blah, blah, blah, whatever, future land, spoiler alert. And she falls up. Yeah, sorry. She falls out of the sky onto sailor moon. So like Sarah moon’s facing tuxedo mass, she falls outta the sky onto sailer, moon kisses, him and they’re and they have like a, it’s like a Mo it’s like a full ten second moment that they’re like showing them kissing.

[00:13:18] Jesse: They are father. And daughter, it is really uncomfortable, uncomfortable, but it’s also it’s. I think it’s Cann to the comics where there’s like this weird, like what’s the electro syndrome. It’s not Utopus

[00:13:31] Angela: the woman. Oh, I don’t know. I didn’t know. There was a term for the it’s

[00:13:34] Jesse: like an edible syndrome, but for the woman, daughter, for the woman, the woman.

[00:13:39] Jesse: Yeah, it was

[00:13:40] Angela: it’s weird. That’s gross, dude. And why? I mean, there are so many of these things, not just in sailor moon, but like when we were kids like cartoon. Again made by adults, but not necessarily all content for, for children, right? Oh yeah. Like there’s so many of these like little things you don’t catch when you’re a kid, cuz you don’t have.

[00:14:02] Angela: That knowledge of like what they were hinting at. So I like, yeah, you noticed that. I definitely did not notice that when I was a child, but also there’s like all this shit, like, well, you didn’t have cable, but I watched a lot of like Nickelodeon and cartoon network growing up and all those cartoons had a lot of like dirty jokes.

[00:14:21] Angela: Oh yeah. And like weird shit going on that none of us caught, well we’re nine or

[00:14:25] Jesse: whatever. Sometimes I feel like it’s for the adults really? It’s like, oh, your, your kid’s watching this. We’re gonna throw ’em some funny stuff. but it’s like a little bit. It definitely is a little bit weird. Yeah. There’s so many things hidden, like, uh, in the us version, sailor uist and sail Neptune were roommates, but in the Japanese version, they’re gay.

[00:14:44] Jesse: Mm. For gay lovers. Yeah. But come on, like sailor, moon thinks sailor uist is a man. Oh, totally. When she first meets, when she first meets meets her. So it’s. Very clearly, you know,

[00:14:56] Angela: I, I’m not sure if I, because we were just saying, like, I don’t remember if I watched the original sailor moon on VHS from Asia or if I watched it on TV, but I feel like, yeah, if I watched it on VHS, it was the Asian version.

[00:15:10] Angela: So because even as a child, I was like, oh, they’re doing it on purpose like that. Yeah. She thinks it’s a man. She has a crush on him. And like you as a viewer kind of have a crush on him, her, like you,

[00:15:22] Jesse: you know, It’s ambiguous at first. Yeah. Yeah. Very

[00:15:25] Angela: ambiguous. And I do remember thinking, like, it was very obvious that they were supposed to be like a yeah.

[00:15:31] Angela: Lesbian. So, yeah, I don’t know. But

[00:15:34] Jesse: anyways, back to their first episode, so they introduced Sam moon. They give her her powers. I mean, really this whole, this whole thing, the evil guys would’ve won. If they just killed Luna, the little cat, like Luna is the instigator of the little cat

[00:15:49] Angela: gave her. That she needed.

[00:15:51] Angela: She gave her her power,

[00:15:53] Jesse: the magical bruise per her transformation phrase. The chance. she turned on the moon somehow by meowing. Well, she got

[00:16:01] Angela: a little moon on her forehead, so, you know, that activates the lunar power of the,

[00:16:07] Jesse: she she’s doing everything.

[00:16:10] Angela: Um, well we love Mona. She’s so cute. We do love Lu. She’s drawn in a way that you have to love her.

[00:16:15] Angela: She’s like super slender. She got huge eyes, a tiny little nose, so cute. Very cute. Oh, what else have you notice? Tuxedo mask. he’s supposed to be in high high school. Yeah. High school. He’s a 35 year old man. Always wearing a Edo. Yeah. In civilian life or. Superhero life. He’s still wearing a tuxedo.

[00:16:39] Jesse: I am very confused because I feel like normally they don’t show him in a tuxedo.

[00:16:43] Jesse: He is wearing very old man clothes. Like normally he’s wearing like slacks, a blazer and like a turtleneck. I’m like what high school dresses?

[00:16:51] Angela: Like this 8 35 year old posing as a high school. Sure.

[00:16:54] Jesse: Well, but, but in this episode, when you first meet him, he’s like in a he’s in his tuxedo mask. Costume. Yeah.

[00:17:02] Jesse: Without the hat and the, the, the actual like gloss,

[00:17:05] Angela: no hat stuff. No masquerade mask, no

[00:17:09] Jesse: Cape, but he’s wearing, he’s wearing the full suit with the little like broach thing. Yeah. So I’m. This isn’t much of a secret identity here, sir. This is lit literally it’s me recycling outfits. When I go to parties, I’m like, this is a cowboy, it’s the same outfit, just with a cowboy hat.

[00:17:25] Jesse: And then I go to the next party morning, a police hat. And I’m like, I’m a police officer. I mean,

[00:17:30] Angela: and again, one more thing where it’s like, unbelievable. We didn’t question these things when we were children. It’s like, who would not have noticed that he’s the same freaking person. Oh yeah. And also even St.

[00:17:40] Angela: Moon with her freaking meatball hair. Like the meatballs yeah. On her head. No one else has that. She has like six feet long hair coming out of those meatballs. and she’s the only one. Did you ever try to do your hairball? Of course I did. Everyone did. Okay. Were you successful? No one. You it’s not possible unless you have super long hair.

[00:18:05] Angela: I had like extensions, you know, little marbles. very much just

[00:18:09] Jesse: like, not possible. I mean, I, I just, I’m curious because it’s a lot of hair. Her hair comes down to like her legs longer,

[00:18:17] Angela: dude. She would be tripping every day. Like the, if that was her actual hair. Yeah. But no, because it’s in an anime it’s like perfectly blowing in the wind.

[00:18:24] Angela: Every time she walks and runs.

[00:18:27] Jesse: Also, I don’t know if you remember this, but like when I rewatch these, I’m like a significant part of the episode is them transforming. And when you have an episode where there are more than one of them transforming, it’s like half the episode because

[00:18:41] Angela: that’s the sexy part because they’re like, it’s close up.

[00:18:45] Angela: It’s their silhouettes, but they’re naked in the silhouettes. And then they’re like being wrapped in ribbons and like you see their hour last figures. This whole

[00:18:57] Jesse: thing. I mean, that’s definitely the different perspective though, as a kid though, because as a kid, I was like, Ooh, this is cool. It’s like flashy, they’re doing stuff they’re changing.

[00:19:05] Jesse: And as an adult, I’m like, this is a 20 minute episode, 10 minutes of Enmar just like them spinning around, like, yeah.

[00:19:12] Angela: Okay. Yeah. And their power is literally activated by saying, make up and then their nails get painted and they’re wrapped in ribbon.

[00:19:23] Jesse: I can’t. Yeah. And her power comes from a bro approach.

[00:19:27] Angela: Yeah. We were talking about that. She didn’t get upgraded to the compact yet, which is her like signature thing. No, no compact. I didn’t even remember that. She only had a broach in the beginning. I thought she always had this compact

[00:19:38] Jesse: thing. I don’t really remember either, honestly. But season one was like really depressing in the original

[00:19:44] Angela: one.

[00:19:44] Angela: I barely remember it honestly.

[00:19:46] Jesse: So I re I rewatched the whole thing, but basically like season one, like they get to the end, they battle the final boss, but everyone dies like in the process. Wow. So SA sailor, moon uses her power to basically like reset everything. Like recar everyone. So then they come back to life and they remember everything, but they also remember that they, oh my God.

[00:20:06] Angela: That’s dark as fuck, dude.

[00:20:08] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say. If we, like, I don’t think we ever watch it to the end of the series, but it gets really fucked up, like towards the like tail end of the series, like in the last season, which never even made the, in, made it to the us sailor UUs and Neptune, like turn on everyone in the hopes that they could like surprise Ko the like evil end of it.

[00:20:31] Jesse: You know, they were like, they were always like the very extreme, they were like, we’re gonna do things our way. And like, you guys don’t understand, blah, blah, blah. And then they get to the end of it. And they tried to like co the boss. The boss was like, And then they’re like, we failed, we betrayed all of our comrades and we failed,

[00:20:45] Angela: oh my God, I don’t know any of this

[00:20:48] Jesse: because we never watched it.

[00:20:49] Jesse: Okay. Because it was because it was like, it never poured to the us. It’s too dark. It was so like, yeah, it was so extreme. Jesus. Wow. Well, and then remember like, um, queen Neal, the woman who was trapped in the new yard and she was like, I’m obsessed with being beautiful forever. I’m gonna eat everyone’s dreams.

[00:21:08] Jesse: Dark curriculum.

[00:21:09] Angela: Well, as a child, we’re like, yay. yes, work.

[00:21:12] Jesse: You better eat their dreams.

[00:21:16] Angela: make up.

[00:21:21] Angela: I can’t

[00:21:22] Jesse: it’s a lot. Sorry. We keep deviating for the episode. But basically the plot episode is like they introduce them. And when they introduced the, not the main batty, but like the main bat’s sub. Subtenant, whatever. And then it’s like, they create a monster who gives everyone, these jewels, these woman jewels for free, or like at a low price.

[00:21:41] Jesse: And the jewels like suck their

[00:21:43] Angela: life force. They also introduce sailor Venus as this like vigilante character who’s already out there kind of fighting badies but we don’t actually meet her in the episode.

[00:21:53] Jesse: Yes. Yes. Who else do we meet in the

[00:21:56] Angela: episode? No one interests. They preview mercury. At the end, because sailor moon is then tasked by Luna to like gather all the guardians.

[00:22:06] Jesse: It’s a little bit weird too, because like technically the other sailor guardians are supposed to be sailor. Moon’s guardians. Like they’re supposed to be her like bodyguards basically. Right. And Luna’s like, you, you go find all your bodyguards.

[00:22:20] Angela: go find your own

[00:22:21] Jesse: bodyguards. no, basically. I forget that tuxedo mass didn’t do anything.

[00:22:27] Jesse: Normally, you know, Edo, mass in the old series, he would just, he would throw his little like rose down thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it would like just disrupt everyone because probably everyone’s like, why’d you just throw roses at me. Confused. And, and then, but he didn’t even do that.

[00:22:41] Angela: He did, he did nothing. He did nothing.

[00:22:43] Angela: He came after it was over.

[00:22:46] Jesse: he? No, he was, he was there. Wednesday moon showed up, but then he just didn’t do anything. He was just watching and he was like, ho, ho, very interesting. Like

[00:22:56] Angela: entertain me woman. I was like, okay. Like, I can’t

[00:23:02] Jesse: this show. I, I like, um, going back and revisiting stuff like this, cuz I feel like I don’t really remember as a kid mm-hmm and.

[00:23:09] Jesse: We didn’t watch it continuously. So then there are like parts of it that I forgot. Totally.

[00:23:13] Angela: It is also fun to re-watch as an adult, because you do notice all these things that like, you did not notice at a child that was probably inappropriate or like fucking weird, but also I guess we’re, we’re seeing it from a different lens too, of like our age is a different lens and also.

[00:23:29] Angela: Society keeps changing. So like these things about like, I’m noticing I’m like that’s super sexist or like stereotypical, like they’re trying to make a bad stereotype of women being obsessed with jewelry, crazed with like maintaining their youth and blah, blah, blah, Sam. But back then I was like me. Makes sense.

[00:23:46] Angela: Sure. Yeah.

[00:23:48] Jesse: One thing that they set the stage for that’s cannon for sailor moon is that basically she’s a pretty useless person. Like she’s bad at school. She’s very whiny bra. She is just like daydreaming all the time. And. I wanna talk about that because that’s like a very, not Asian, it’s an opposite.

[00:24:07] Jesse: It’s a, you know what I mean? It’s like very opposite. Exactly. She’s like very like, you know, not what I think generally an Asian parent in that time period would want, but

[00:24:17] Angela: you know what, maybe that is on purpose because we’ve said now that this is built to be kind of like a fantasy, right. And it’s like every Asian kid who’s worked with our bones fantasy is to like, be a lazy ass who does not care about like, you relate to that.

[00:24:32] Angela: Because looking back on it now. Yeah. We’re looking at it and we’re like, you’re fucking lazy. You don’t do shit. You take naps, you’re eating all the time. You’re failing your, you know, assignments and we’re looking at it badly. But I do remember as a kid being like, oh, I like her. She’s like, so fucking useless work.

[00:24:50] Angela: She’s like crying all the time. She’s hungry all the time. I don’t know. I think it was the, a. Of like, oh, I, I don’t get to be this person. So it’s kind of nice for a protagonist to be

[00:25:02] Jesse: that person. Yeah. Um, so what did I like about this episode that maybe is a little bit different? Um, I, I like that they made her crying in superpower in

[00:25:11] Angela: this.

[00:25:11] Angela: Oh my God. It was like sonar

[00:25:13] Jesse: yeah. She started crying and it was like shattering glass and it like took down all of the zombified ladies that tried to attack her. The animation is like, honestly, I, you could say it’s

[00:25:26] Angela: better. You said it was better, but I didn’t really notice it being that much better

[00:25:31] Jesse: than 90.

[00:25:31] Jesse: It’s debatable. It’s debate. I mean, like if you go, if you go back and watch the original ones on YouTube, like you can’t watch it bigger than the show. Sure, sure.

[00:25:38] Angela: So like they basically up Rez, it today’s to today’s like screen size,

[00:25:44] Jesse: it? The, the animation does get better in the later seasons, but like, yeah, this, the first season was kind of like rough.

[00:25:50] Jesse: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I don’t really remember much about the original one, but I liked Luna.

[00:25:58] Angela: Cute. I loved Luna. I think for me, what I like the most is just like the nostalgic of it all. Yeah. And like, even though you complained about the transformation being like half of the episode, I loved that part and it’s like, I, I loved it for what it was, but I recognized how ridiculous it is.

[00:26:16] Angela: Like her freaking activation chant is like, So long it’s so long and it’s like something moon, power make up, which like makes no sense. But I was like, once I heard those words, I was like, yes, like, because I remember her saying it when I was a kid and then like it being her, you know, like. 180, because like we just said, she was so freaking lazy and like useless in her day to day.

[00:26:41] Angela: And then suddenly when she says these like ridiculous words, that don’t make any sense, she like becomes a mature kind of mature, like elegant version of her

[00:26:52] Jesse: oh, I know what I’m

[00:26:53] Angela: doing with my life. I, I know how to use my powers. All, all of a sudden, I don’t know. But yeah. So I think just like those weird things that didn’t make any sense and the, the glam.

[00:27:03] Angela: Glam moments were my favorite because it reminded me of when I watched as a kid and what I liked the most that’s fair. Okay. Well, I think that was a good recap of what we noticed and thought was ridiculous and funny and interesting from this episode, uh, let’s move to fortune cookie clothes, cuz we always like to end on a sweet treat.

[00:27:25] Angela: I think we were going to talk about who our favorite character was and why. Um, Jesse.

[00:27:34] Jesse: So I like sailor, Mars BEC well, uh, no, uh,

[00:27:40] Angela: you, why don’t you say both. Okay. You like Mars because of Y XYZ.

[00:27:44] Jesse: Okay. I like sailor Mars because she has powers outside of a sailor scout, you know, she’s like Arine maiden. So she has some like premonition powers, the paper, those like, yeah, the paper tags.

[00:27:58] Jesse: Um, And although, well, we didn’t see any of these, so I’m just gonna say whichever ones. I also liked, um, sailor Pluto, because I don’t know, I just like sail Pluto. She

[00:28:11] Angela: was the prettiest variation of hair and eye color for you.

[00:28:16] Jesse: she just, she seemed like a very cool. And she had a full like staff, which was pretty cool, like animation wise mm-hmm um, and she just seemed very she and, okay.

[00:28:28] Jesse: So she’s part of like those three, like outer sailers, right. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto and outer. The three of them, she seemed like the nicest one. She like, kind of knew what’s going on because like the rest of ’em I feel like when they show up, they’re like, We don’t, we don’t know what’s happening. Like we’re trying to figure stuff out.

[00:28:43] Jesse: She, she shows she’s like, I, I know what’s happening. I know what’s going on.

[00:28:46] Angela: She was the most put together for you. Yeah.

[00:28:48] Jesse: Yeah. She like, she like under, she understood the assignment. She knows she’s doing,

[00:28:52] Angela: she could be on TikTok is what you’re saying. .

[00:28:56] Jesse: Maybe. Oh, and she’s also, she’s also a sci. She’s also a scientist.

[00:28:59] Jesse: Oh, she’s smart. She’s smart. Mm-hmm okay. Fair. Yeah.

[00:29:02] Angela: So I like those. Wait, how old is she supposed to be? That she’s a scientist.

[00:29:06] Jesse: I think she’s like a

[00:29:07] Angela: college research artist. 16. Just kidding. Okay. College.

[00:29:11] Jesse: Okay. No, no. She’s like older. Yeah. She’s older. Yeah. Okay. Okay. They’re also the, yeah, all the outers are older because like Neptune’s a cellist or violinist or something like that.

[00:29:22] Jesse: Yeah. Uranus is. Like a runner, race, car driver, something like that. One of those two things, both of those things, maybe that’s my job.

[00:29:33] Angela: no, I just meant that it was an indicator that she was older, that she was put in a position where you would be like having a crush on, like she had that like yes. Older person energy.

[00:29:45] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. Like. Dad be. Yeah, even though she, she also looked like she was maybe like 18 at most. They’re not,

[00:29:53] Angela: none of them are that old yeah, I can’t.

[00:29:57] Angela: Okay. Jupiter was my faith. Although, when you said Mars, I was like, actually I did really like Mars because she had. When she was in her, like the temple, you know, um, version of her, I really liked her outfits there. She had those like really pretty gowns and stuff. The shrine Maden outfits. Yeah. Um, but no, I liked Jupiter because she was a badass.

[00:30:15] Angela: She was like the sporty one. And I think it was just like, I resonated with that because it was like, oh, I’m kind of tomboy. Ish too. And she was kind of like that. She was the only one that used a ponytail, you know, like everyone else had her yeah. Their hair down, cuz it’s like typical of a girl as you’d let your long hair grow out and like be the kind of like thing that everyone watches.

[00:30:38] Angela: But if you put your hair up, you’re kind of like, I don’t care. So I was like, I like her because she was not so. A feminine, but then when she turned into sailor, Jupiter, she was still hot. Cuz they were all wearing like those skimpy outfits. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I always liked her and she’s the one that I had a little figurine of from Taiwan.

[00:30:58] Angela: Oh. And I think I got her little like, you know, whatever, they all had little wands I think I got hers.

[00:31:05] Jesse: Oh the, the pen, the transformation pen. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I, I also say probably Jupiter is a good honestly. Of all the Scouts. I feel like the only three that have superpowers outside of their transformation.

[00:31:20] Jesse: Mars, she has this tribe meeting stuff. Uh, no. Yeah. Uh, mercury, cuz she’s super smart. Um, and Jupi, she’s like very strong. Even not transformed. Yeah.

[00:31:30] Angela: Yeah. Like not totally useless people is what we’re saying. Exactly. Yeah. Not moon who for some reason is the center of everything, but all she does is cry, eat and sleep.

[00:31:42] Jesse: I don’t know. I don’t remember what sailor Venus is. Like. I don’t think she had a special power outside of,

[00:31:47] Angela: she was just like the force of good. I Don.

[00:31:50] Jesse: So, what does that make the moon like the heart? I don’t know. Self-centered I actually special

[00:31:57] Angela: center of the universe is the moon. This makes zero sense, but okay.

[00:32:02] Angela: Anyway, that was fun.

[00:32:05] Jesse: yeah, I had fun. Me too. Well, listeners, if you enjoyed. Listening to this review episode, if you watch their moon, if you want to tell us what your favorite episode is, your favorite character is please write us in and tell us where you’re from@gmail.com or DMS sub on Instagram.

[00:32:24] Angela: Then as we discuss, this is a newish.

[00:32:26] Angela: Format, we are gonna do one more spoil alert of trained to Busan in the, the final episode, before we take a little breaky break. But if you liked this format or if you hated this format, or if you have feedback for how we can improve it, let us know because we’ll tweak it in the upcoming episodes based on if you guys liked it or not.

[00:32:48] Angela: So let us know and come back next week, because like I said, we’ll have the final episode before we take a few weeks off for the. Um, so come back then. And until then, bitches.

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The Heritage of Chinese Fortune Telling


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Angela: Hey everyone. I’m Angela Lin

[00:00:02] Jesse: and I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to, uh, another riveting episode of, but where are you really? This week, we’re talking about a topic that’s semi-related to the names episode. If you guys haven’t had a chance to take a listen to that, it would be a good precursor episode, but we’re talking about further.

[00:00:25] Jesse: Fortunes and how fortunes are calculated and by whom, um, in Taiwanese society. And this is a very timely topic because I’m not sure if I told you yet, but I got my first speeding ticket. So it would’ve been really nice if I had consulted someone and they told me, but it was an expensive ticket. yeah. Yeah,

[00:00:49] Angela: I’m not really sure that’s how fortune telling works.

[00:00:51] Angela: Jesse

[00:00:52] Jesse: you’re you’re right. So it, so like there are, I think there are a lot of differences between Eastern and Western fortune telling the funny thing is I actually don’t feel like I know a whole lot about Western fortune telling outside of like taro cards. So it’s hard for me to make a compare and contrast, but just like really top level based off of my general perceptions and.

[00:01:18] Jesse: Anecdotal information. This is not empirical. I mean, it’s fortune telling, so it’s not empirical at all, but it’s not my empirical studied understanding of like the long history of terror or other like fortune telling methods. But I feel like in talking to my parents, they were very much, they were very much saying like, you go to a fortune teller to kind of get like a probability.

[00:01:43] Jesse: Something that will happen. But even when they were talking about it, my mom was like, oh yeah, I went to, I went to one with somebody once not for herself. And she was like, I didn’t like the fortune. Like, I didn’t think it was real. And I was like, okay. So like it’s probabilistic. And also like, as the. As the person seeking the advice from the fortune teller, you also don’t have to take it, which I guess is kind of true if you go to like a taro car reading.

[00:02:13] Jesse: But I feel like a lot of the, I don’t know, I just feel like a lot of the Western stuff is like more like you just kind of go and you, you take the fortune as it is. I don’t know if you like backtalk the fortune teller or anything like that where you’re like, I don’t like this fortune or this fortune isn’t.

[00:02:31] Jesse: Um, and I also don’t know. I mean, you, you probably tell me if you know more about the historical backgrounds of, um, te and other fortune telling methods Western wise. But what my dad told me is like all the different fortune telling methods, um, come out of the ING, which is the eyeing for everyone else.

[00:02:55] Jesse: and he told me that there were okay of notes. He told me that there are basically like five different kinds. Topical fortune telling that comes out of that. So the first is this thing called San like mountain, and this is about like ying yang, fun Shu. So it’s like about how you arrange your living spaces as a live person and also about how you arrange.

[00:03:20] Jesse: The space for someone who’s passed away, because both of those things have some fortune effect on your current life and like your future life. There’s a thing called, um, E E no, sorry. E and that’s just like regular medicine, like eon doctor. There’s a thing called Ming, which is like, where we’re kind of talking about, like the shamings kind of stuff.

[00:03:44] Jesse: There’s a thing called poo. And he was explaining this as kind of. um, luck based, divination kind of. So you like throw a coin heads or tails, the pattern tells you something. And he also mentioned that this kind of divination can be done with animals. So like, he’s like some people have birds that will like pick the, the coins for you.

[00:04:06] Jesse: And the last thing is sh sh oh, sh. So like what your face looks like, and they take into consideration, like your eyes, nose, mouth, there are like five different ones. So it’s, I think that’s the eyes nose. Ears head, maybe like forehead. And those are like the five different, like topical areas that a person, uh, that, uh, someone who is skilled in a, uh, not Asian, fortunately Taiwanese fortune telling like traditional fortune telling would be able to use to assess like the probability of like luckiness or something.

[00:04:44] Angela: Did he tell you at all? Because, I mean, I think we’re jumping kind of between what our topics were supposed to be, but since you already brought it up, the aging is like a really foundational text to doism. Um, which is the religion that we grew up with. So did he explain why it’s like so integral in Daoism?

[00:05:09] Angela: Because I get like, very confused with that kind of stuff, because like, for example, I think semi recently I was telling you that I reread the ING of like, but in English, after I did psycho talks and I was like more open spiritually, um, and that text is when. Foundational text of Daoism. And I read that and that all made sense to me.

[00:05:34] Angela: Like it had nothing to do with like divination or like, you know what, I deem more superstitious stuff versus like eating, I bought it because it was like, I was like, oh, I really liked the ING. Maybe I actually would get into like the rest of doism if I had the English text and I tried to read it and I was very confusing.

[00:05:59] Angela: I stopped reading it, but I didn’t know at all that it was like, like a divination text. And I don’t understand why that it’s like foundational to doism as a.

[00:06:13] Jesse: um, well, I didn’t even know that, but I can conjecture to it because I think about like doism as a religion is this kind of like philosophy on how to live with yourself and to be one with nature, kind of like being, being part of nature and following like a natural path is like a very important part of.

[00:06:35] Jesse: I think as far as I understand from talking to my parents, the divination aspects, like the different elements that I just went through, they’re all very much about how to arrange your life, to live a natural life in a way where things flow smoothly and you feel more integrated kind of into your life.

[00:06:57] Jesse: So maybe for me just thinking about it that way, the connection is like the, the divination is almost. How to fulfill your destiny by being more integrated into nature. And so maybe that’s where they, where they connect a little bit. That, that, that, that, cuz I feel like with like, I don’t know, I like growing up thinking about fortune telling it’s like, you know, the whole like, you know, dumpy lady, crystal ball, like taro cards kind of thing, which is really there’s no, there’s no connection for me to anything.

[00:07:32] Jesse: It’s not like connected to nature. It’s just kind of like, oh my God. Like, they can somehow like, look at your destiny and your destiny is kind of this like amorphous thing that just like independently, but this is more like your destiny is tied with nature. And so like all of those, um, any recommendation, um, any advice would be connected with your kind of like natural path, if that

[00:07:56] Angela: makes.

[00:07:57] Angela: interesting. Um, yeah, I found similar stuff. I didn’t, uh, I didn’t get a chance to talk to my parents more deeply about it beyond the kind of like few times they’ve done it, but it seems like, yes, there are multiple methods. And then, um, but one of the like more common ones is, uh, called like bots, which is the, the one where you’re like, you tell them everything.

[00:08:24] Angela: Your birthdate, our like all the like information they need to understand kinda like where in the astrological grand scheme of the cosmos you were born and then thereby like what your destiny kind of is, um, ordained to be. And that is interesting to me because it’s like, um, I, I think of that. More like traditionally with a word of destiny, because it’s kind of like, you can’t change it.

[00:08:56] Angela: Or there are certain things that are kinda like set based on where you were, how you were birthed versus like you started all this conversation with a joke about like, you wish you had known you were gonna get a speeding ticket. Like, what are the, what were the other ones like, how did the other methods have to do with, I guess more just like.

[00:09:19] Angela: things that aren’t as important. Like, because for me, if you’re like factoring in like the stars and like where you fall and like the cos cosmological, or like, whatever the fuck timeline, I don’t think a speeding ticket or like little things like that. Are not necessarily like written in the stars in, in my opinion, as opposed to like, you know, sometimes they’re like, oh, you shouldn’t do this on like X, Y, Z day or whatever, because it’s bad luck.

[00:09:51] Angela: And like, that kind of stuff seems more trivial and like kind of like guessing in, in my

[00:10:00] Jesse: opinion than, yeah. Ordained. Yeah. I mean, no, you’re right. And that, and that actually is kind of. for, for me, that’s my, my. Originating viewpoint of fortune telling, right? It’s like you use it to try to suss out something very tactical.

[00:10:17] Jesse: At least for me, it’s like, oh, will I get a parking ticket? Like, will I get that job promotion? And when I was talking to my mom about it, she was like, People don’t use it for like trivial things. She was like, you are using it when you’re at a, like you’re at a crossroads in your life and you don’t know what to do.

[00:10:34] Jesse: And it’s like a monumental choice you have to make. And so you go to a fortune teller for them to like help you assess what those paths are. And yeah, I feel like a lot of the, a lot of the counting methods that they were describing to me, it’s more so about. Again, it’s like the likelihood that something will bring good fortune or whatever, like good vibes into your life.

[00:11:00] Jesse: And it has a lot to do with, um, the natural aspects of your destiny. So like, in the names episode, we talked about how like, names are picked because you know, they’re looking at your, whatever, your ti your birth time and date, and they’re determining like you have too much of a certain kind of element and they’re balancing that out.

[00:11:19] Jesse: And I feel like it’s very much the same way. Like they’re looking at your. The different probabilities of something happening. And then like seeing which thing is more connected with your natural path as oppos, as opposed to something that might be like a little bit forced and it’s not natural for you.

[00:11:35] Jesse: Mm-hmm yeah.

[00:11:38] Angela: How much do you believe this kind of stuff? Because I, um, I mean, I’ve never personally done it and then, but like the whole, like birth time date, those kinds of like predestined, um, characteristics that they can tell a lot of shit from reminds me. Uh, remember a long time ago we had Shani on and we talked about like that show, um, that Netflix show about Indian arranged marriages and on the show that for, or sorry, the matchmaker went to a fortune teller, um, for like several of the episodes where she bring like the candidates, the, the people that are like looking to be a match and, um, tell them all the information about like their date.

[00:12:28] Angela: Birth time and all that stuff. And without ever meeting the person, the fortune teller said like a lot of shit that was like very accurate where they’re like, oh, this person has like this type of personality. It means that they’re have like these types of challenges when it comes to relationships. And like I’ve.

[00:12:46] Angela: I can see that they’ve had many failed X, Y, Z, and then like, but like the forthcoming cycle, blah, blah, blah. You know, and it was kind of like crazy spot on without someone ever like meeting a person or, you know, even talking to them. So I feel like there’s like something to it. How much do you feel like is, you know, actually legit versus like, I don’t know.

[00:13:14] Jesse: Really good. I mean, I feel like we, we sit on opposite ends of the Wu spectrum. Not that we’re not that neither of us are on the Wu or not that I’m not on the Wu spectrum, but I’m on like the more skeptical side. Sure. Um, so when I was discussing with my parents, again, this is just my perspective from my conversation with them and their, what they remember from.

[00:13:35] Jesse: Whenever they left Taiwan and came that came over here, like the tradition may have changed or evolved or whatever. But my mom was telling me, cuz I was asking, you know, like where like who would be a fortune teller? Like how do you learn about it? And they were very, I don’t think they really knew cuz they’re like, oh yeah.

[00:13:51] Jesse: Like if you wanna learn it, you like, there’re places that teach it. And I’m like, okay, thank you. I know that you can do that’s called the internet, but but they were saying something like, you can, you can train in it, but then you have to practice. So there is an element where it’s like, you, you might have the foundational knowledge of like maybe how to read, um, the eating or like how to do cer do certain types of these divination, but your precision.

[00:14:20] Jesse: I guess in your divination really depends on your experience working with people. So for me, it’s kind of like, there is a skills part of it because obviously, like you do need to learn the tradition and like what certain things mean. But the other part of it is almost kind of like a mentalist thing where you’re, where you’re reading all these different aspects of the person that’s talking to you.

[00:14:41] Jesse: So like you’re coming to me. You’re you don’t have a smile on your face. You’re wearing a lot of makeup. Um, your hair is up, you’re in a fancy, like you’re reading these different things about the person coming to you and that’s factoring into your assessment of what their fortune can be. Yeah. And so I think almost like from the Western perspective, I think of it as a mentalist because it’s like a person who’s, they’re not divination, anything they’re like.

[00:15:11] Jesse: They know, you look a certain way, and that means a certain thing about you. But on the flip side, that kind of is divination, right? Like, you know something about a person, even though you’ve never met them just by how they look. And that is kind of like that, like aura reading kind of situation, it’s just like seen differently.

[00:15:31] Jesse: Mm. So like from a mentalist perspective, it’s like you, you have experienced knowing that certain kinds of individuals that look like this. Have these qualities or have these needs. Um, but that can be fortune telling, like if, if I probably told, I’m not sure there’s the word for mentalist in Mandarin? Oh, I have no idea.

[00:15:51] Jesse: Yeah. But like, if I probably told my parents that they’d be like, yeah, that’s probably like part of what they’re doing. Like they’re reading the person. Yeah. Um, so it’s both, I think, empirical in a sense, and also woo. In a, in another sense,

[00:16:06] Angela: Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways.

[00:16:15] Angela: First is by subscribing to us, rating us and reviewing us on apple podcasts and iTunes. Second is by telling a friend third is follow us on Instagram at where are you from? Fourth is supporting us on Mia coffee. You can find out more about all of these by visiting our Instagram’s Lincoln bio. And again, our handle is at where are you from pod.

[00:16:40] Angela: Thank you. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that like brings me to the whole, like, because when you were like, oh, I don’t really know what is considered Western. Um, , you know, fortune telling for me in like doing the research and, and also just generally as someone who is yeah, more. Woo, woo. And also just.

[00:17:03] Angela: Loves ghost stories of like, you know, that, that whole side of things I was like, yeah. Well, it kind of depends on what you define as fortune telling and divination and all that stuff. But like this whole idea of like the mentalist type, like, you know, conjecturing reminds me of, um, like mediums, right? Like psychic mediums who.

[00:17:27] Angela: Who can tell, like some, I personally think that there are people that have some sort of innate, like power, um, to like that are just a little bit more open to the, the like world, the physical world and the spiritual worlds. And they can like, they have some of that, but I think there’s a lot of. Crooks out there that are just like making shit up.

[00:17:50] Angela: And a lot of what’s psychic mediums, the ones who really like prey on people that are vulnerable, especially ones who just like lost someone. And they’re kind of looking for some closure. A lot of times they are just kind of like, okay, based on how you look, I’m gonna guess, like, You lost a, you know, a parent based on your age versus like a lover or whatever.

[00:18:12] Angela: Right. And like, when they, they they’re like, oh, I’m seeing a name and they’re like, it’s a man’s name. Like, they’re kind of like asking you to feed them stuff. Right. So, so I definitely see some kind of parallels with, with that, um, with like psychic mediumship. Um, and I think there’s that kind of stuff in Asian culture too.

[00:18:32] Angela: It’s it’s weird. the more I did research on like, you know, Asian versus Western, um, fortune telling stuff. The more I was like, there’s just, I don’t know. Everyone seems to have like, kind of similar stuff, like yes, there is, like, you mentioned the kind of like. Pillars of Chinese, traditional Chinese fortune telling.

[00:18:53] Angela: But a lot of that stuff is like also in a bunch of other cultures that are not Asian too. So like Palm reading is one of them. And like, you know, the, you mentioned the, the features, right? Like your, how your face looks. I’m sure other, you know, cultures are using that kind of stuff too. And definitely a lot of cultures do the thing where you like throw stuff on the ground, right?

[00:19:13] Angela: Like sticks or coins or like bones or whatever. It’s like. Part of it for me, feels like it’s like, all this stuff is a lot older than necessarily one specific culture. It kind of comes from like, you know, when humans were like, I, I’m not saying like caveman days, but like somewhere between caveman days and like first civilized to society.

[00:19:37] Angela: People were always trying to like make out what the universe means. Right. And like a lot of times back then it was like, oh, there’s a God of fire. Who’s like mad at us right now. And like, this is why it’s happening. But like the, you mentioned dowm being about kind of like interpreting nature and like how to be one with nature.

[00:19:56] Angela: I mean, that all makes sense to me that. all this stuff started a long, long time ago when people were a lot closer to nature and like using things from nature, like animals and you know, how leaves are falling and like kind of trying to find patterns and all that. So, I mean, I’m sure there’s some, like, Cultural, you know, um, borders, you could draw in terms of like the actual methodology of certain, some, you know, certain of these methods.

[00:20:29] Angela: But for me, it just feels like it all stems back from like, you know, or early human life and trying to like, make sense of the, the world and all the like crazy shit happening that you. um, interpret,

[00:20:44] Jesse: right? Yeah, no, I, I, a hundred percent agree with you. Like I hope I’m not stepping in it, but I think like this fortune telling is a way to make sense of the universe in a way that some religions are right.

[00:20:59] Jesse: Like, you’re always, I feel like people have always wanted to understand, like, what’s your role in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. And like why you exist on this, on this earth. And these are all different expressions of. Um, what I do find really interesting that you mentioned is that like Daoism was founded like long time ago.

[00:21:22] Jesse: Mm-hmm . And even then when they weren’t that modern, they were concerned about being separated from nature. And now I’m like, oh my God. We’re like so far away from that. Yeah. That it’s like crazy that, um, at that point in time, there was already somebody thinking about like how divorced we are from, from being in the natural environment that.

[00:21:42] Jesse: That we came from. Hmm. Yeah. So I guess like most of these things are just about kind of like restoring that in a way. Maybe not restoring, like, honoring that in a way. Cuz I feel like most people understand, like we can’t go back to being like caveman, like that’s just not gonna work, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t live, um, in a way that gives some weight to the fact that we are animals and we came from nature.

[00:22:08] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So, um, changing gears a little bit earlier, you mentioned that your mom said, you know, the way, the way people use fortune telling is not for petty small things, but usually for like big crossroads type things. Um, and something that I came across in my research and also one of the like tidbits my parents did tell me in the past that I found interesting is.

[00:22:34] Angela: W, I mean, we can all kind of understand why fortune telling and like mysticism type stuff came about earlier on. Right? Like we said, there’s lots of stuff you just can’t explain. Especially like before science was as, you know, prolific and all that stuff, but like, why is it still so prevalent in modern society in like in many places, but like definitely throughout Asia.

[00:22:58] Angela: It is like very common, the, the practice of fortune telling, and it’s not looked down on, it’s actually seen as like a legitimate form of like getting clarity on a situation and, um, I think a big part of it is something related to what my dad said as a one off kind of joke. But I think it’s true. He was like, oh, um, Chinese people don’t have therapists.

[00:23:25] Angela: They have fortune tellers. like, they don’t go see therapists. They just go to see the swim. And I thought it was funny when he said that, but I was like, actually that. Totally legit because mental health is something that we’ve discussed a lot is like still pretty looked down on in terms of like, trying to get ahead of it and like take care of it.

[00:23:47] Angela: In Asian societies, like it’s not common to go see a therapist, just cause. And like, just to want to like take care of, you know, preserve your mental health and anyone who is seen as someone who goes to talk to a therapist is seen as crazy. Like they have something wrong with them as opposed to someone who’s just trying to like be, you know, live their best life, which is.

[00:24:13] Angela: Where the Western worlds are trending. Right. Um, and so I was reading that. Yeah. A lot of people go to fortune tellers as a means to get like professional help, essentially in a way that isn’t looked down on by society. So it’s not as frequent as like, you know, a therapist, you probably are going more often than like once a year or whatever, versus like, in, in the case of fortune telling it’s not.

[00:24:42] Angela: It’s not like every week you’re going to go see your fortune teller, but like it, maybe it’s a couple times a year or whatever. And like, I don’t know. You mentioned something about like your mom. Was like, oh, I don’t believe that fortune, like I’m rejecting this fortune. Right. I think a lot of times people seek, um, validation in what they were already going to do.

[00:25:04] Angela: Um, or like getting someone to like getting an object, quote, unquote, objective third party to tell them like, oh yeah, you were, that’s a good decision. Or like, yes, the. Or showing that like, you should be going down this type of path anyway, and then you’re just like, you’re getting the validation you needed, as opposed to, if they say something that’s like, not what you wanted, you might reject it and be like, oh, well this is all a sham.

[00:25:28] Angela: Anyway, you know, like it’s because you, you just want that kind of like outside assurance. And for me, that’s not the only role therapist play obviously, but a big reason. go to therapy is that sometimes, especially in like conflicts with other people, there are only people that were there or like you and that other person.

[00:25:51] Angela: And so if you feel a certain way and that other person is not. Validating the way that you feel to have a third party come in and like hear the situation and say like, yes, it makes sense that you would like feel this way or based on the way that person acted like, you know, it’s normal to feel X, Y, Z, like that validation as a big reason, I, I go to therapy.

[00:26:14] Angela: Um, so I, I can see, uh, like parallel in the use of fortune telling. To seek validation for something you wanted to do or didn’t think was right already. Yeah. And then getting like that source of truth,

[00:26:29] Jesse: right? Yeah. Did you read that from the vice there’s a vice article? No. Oh, okay. There’s a vice article.

[00:26:35] Jesse: That was basically the title is in Taiwan. Fortune tellers are the preferred form of, of therapist. It was, I was reading is really interesting because, um, one of the people they interviewed was like, you know, when I went to psychotherapy, I just didn’t. , I didn’t know what to do because it took a different framework.

[00:26:52] Jesse: So he was like, that therapist was asking me how I feel about something. And he was like, I don’t feel anything about this. Like, I don’t know what you, you know, like he was kind of like what you want from me kind of situation. It’s not really the point of psychotherapy, but if you’ve never been. It can be like a really hard thing to, to like open up and like acknowledge certain feelings, especially if you’re not thinking about it that way necessarily.

[00:27:14] Jesse: Yeah. And, um, they do mention that, uh, a lot of, I, I think a lot of that is replaced by visiting fortune tellers or having certain superstitions like that. I don’t know, kinda like bring a little bit more objectivity as you were saying that whole third, third person view, um, into a situation where that, that could be very subjective.

[00:27:37] Jesse: Right? You, you might have many different ways to resolve a, a life crossroads

[00:27:41] Angela: issue. Yeah. The, um, the feeling seeing is interesting because I’m sure that a lot of the reason why the traditional therapy doesn’t like resonate necessarily with Asian. Culture or like more conservative Asian culture is that we are not raised to talk about our feelings.

[00:27:59] Angela: Like it’s not common for us to like, acknowledge what we are feeling in any given moment and like give validity to it and kind of like process that. So I could see why it would be really difficult to ask someone in like Taiwan, traditional Taiwan or whatever, right. To be like, oh, how did you feel in that moment?

[00:28:17] Angela: It’s like, I don’t fucking know. Like I don’t, I don’t know anything about my emotions. Yeah. Versus. We’ve talked about this many times, it’s a stereotype, but it’s, it is true in many, in many places, is that like Asian culture respects authority a lot. Right. And like any authoritative figure, a lot of times like kind of brings, uh, a sense of like calm to people to listen to an authoritative figure.

[00:28:43] Angela: And so if a fortune teller can. Be really confident in their answer to you. Like you should not do this because the, you know, the, the stars show that like your destiny is not that way, then you feel like, oh, he knows something though. Like, I don’t know, you know, like this is just what it is. So I I’d better listen to him.

[00:29:03] Angela: Um, and you kind of feel a sense of security in having someone who seems to know it more than you do tell you to do. Thing, right? Yeah.

[00:29:13] Jesse: Yeah, exactly. And, um, another one of the articles that I was looking at survey data from 2004, which is like , but, um, it said like 30, 30, 6% of the population thinks that fortune telling can help in innovating disasters.

[00:29:26] Jesse: And these are the next two ones I think are really interesting. 50, 56% view it as helping to provide peace of mind. Yeah. So definitely that whole like mental health, mental comfort. Yeah. And 53% credit it with influencing daily behavior. And. Mm. And, um, one of the main guys that they were interviewing for this article was saying like, he personally thinks that fortune telling is still popular and around because of the uncertainties of modern society.

[00:29:53] Jesse: So he’s saying like Taiwan has changed so fast so quickly and it can make people feel like it’s like a little outta control. Like when your life changes really quickly, you’re like, oh my God, like what’s happening. And so having this as a kind of. Um, a way to mitigate your feelings of uncertainty around new things and the modernity of society I think is, is also a reason why it’s still very popular.

[00:30:22] Angela: Well, um, I think we also, we talked a little bit about this, um, but maybe there’s more we can dig into here, which is kind of like the crossover between. Fortune the practice of fortune telling or like these kind of objective, quote, unquote, objective, third parties and spirituality, religion, all that stuff.

[00:30:42] Angela: Because, um, you know, I, I think part of why I was interested in doing this topic is that it’s like, The idea fortune telling has like, come, I’ve come across it more in like things I’m watching. Like for example, I’m watching like Korean dramas more. Right. And like there there’s often kind of subplots where they like go to a fortune teller to kind of like, you know, get a certain reading and it influences them a certain way.

[00:31:10] Angela: Um, and in Korean ones, I’m sure it’s not just in Korean culture. It’s uh, probably in a lot of other Asian ones too, but like, Uh, there’s a certain type of fortune to telling where they get possessed by a spirit. And it’s that spirit that’s like telling, you know, reading a certain fortune. Um, and yeah, I don’t know like everything about this, but I looked a little bit into where it exists in Chinese culture as well.

[00:31:36] Angela: and it seems like, um, at least in Chinese culture, the thought is that some of the possessions are by like gods. So like deities will like use human vessels to embody, to like tell a certain thing. And then I think I know where your HEADSS at, but like when we were kids growing up in temple, we every like once a year or whatever, they had, like those really big.

[00:32:02] Angela: Gatherings of like different Dallas temples across California would like meet and have like a big Dallas day. Um, and we had like, you know, I don’t know what their technical like titles were, but they were like leaders in the Dallas community, but had like certain special roles. And there were like possessions kind of that they would like, you know, start, I don’t know.

[00:32:26] Angela: They, to me, it was weird because I was like, I don’t know what’s happening, but they like suddenly. Seemed like, you know, they were acting different, like a totally different personality. And then they would like draw with their feet or hands like in the sand and like make certain patterns or words or whatever.

[00:32:43] Angela: And I, I didn’t really understand why that was happening or like what was going on.

[00:32:48] Jesse: But yeah. Yeah. So I was literally about to say that and it, I, they have they’re mediums basically. Yeah. There’s some, there’s some mediums that they bring in a few times a year to like channel one of the, one of the. And, um, I remember very vividly they had, um, so the, the medium was activated.

[00:33:08] Jesse: Let’s say sure. She, I, I don’t, that sounds really icky, activated. Okay, sure. Yeah. Um, and she was, you know, we had those like offering plates with fruit on them. Yeah. She was passing out and had it greats and she’s like, everyone take a grape. And she is like, does anyone not have a grape? And there were like a few people who were like, we don’t have it.

[00:33:27] Jesse: And she’s like, did anyone take two grapes? And people were like, And, um, she was like, yeah, there should have been enough grapes for like everybody, like just one for everybody in the room. And I was like, well, as a kid, I was like, oh my God. and they make it like very convincing whether it’s real or not, because at the end of the activation, the person just like falls and they’re like old for like, and then like an hour or something like that.

[00:33:53] Jesse: But yeah, it is, it is very. I did. I honestly, when you were saying that, I was like, who does that? And then I was like, oh wait, we did that.

[00:34:04] Angela: you were like judging. You’re like, what fools think

[00:34:08] Jesse: this should have been. I was like, invite somebody into your body. Absolutely not.

[00:34:15] Angela: Well, no, it’s not that. It’s not that the people who were seeking answers went and were like, please possess me soul, like spirit. It was that the fortune teller they went to.

[00:34:28] Angela: Is like their power derived is derived

[00:34:31] Jesse: from a OK. Yeah. That makes more sense. I was not, no, no,

[00:34:34] Angela: no. What? This is not Exorcist. We’re not like out here being like, Hey demon, come on in. No, no, no, no,

[00:34:41] Jesse: no, yeah, no. Yeah. Okay. It’s both sides now. I was like, hold on, wait way.

[00:34:48] Angela: So funny. Um, but yeah, so, I mean, I don’t know.

[00:34:52] Angela: It’s like very weird to me. I don’t, I don’t really know where that came from necessarily. Um, and I think, you know, this reminds me of when we were doing the meditation episode and I was saying, how. The Vipasana meditation was created by Buddha, the human thousands of years ago, but then Buddhism like came about after he died.

[00:35:14] Angela: And like the religion of Buddhism kind of like went many different ways and sort of the meditation technique because people started like kind of adding to it. And for me, it’s interesting because doism is what we were raised with. Um, and I just wonder where. I don’t know, the splintering happened of like how doism evolved into something that can both be about just like being one with nature.

[00:35:42] Angela: And also the having these like mediums possessed by deities and like drawing things in the sand. So I just, I, yeah, I don’t know how this stuff

[00:35:51] Jesse: happened. Well, you know, I feel like the tradition is. it’s like, you know, passed down word of mouth. Sometimes, sometimes there’s written documentation, but even then, like people can change that throughout the years.

[00:36:04] Jesse: And, and that can really transform something that used to be this one thing to, to be something else.

[00:36:09] Angela: Yeah. So I don’t know. I mean, like you said, we, you know, we’re on different ends of the Woohoo spectrum, but I’m not like, I certainly don’t believe everything at face value. And so for me, I, I find it difficult because it kind of reminds me.

[00:36:24] Angela: More generally about the way that I see spirituality versus religion, where it’s like, what does spirituality mean to me in terms of like what I believe and the values I hold and the kind of person I’m aspiring to be based on those beliefs, as opposed to like what a certain book says it’s supposed to be and how people have written, what that religion is supposed to be.

[00:36:47] Angela: Right. And I’m kind of like struggling with accepting. Both, um, as like true. Um, but I guess doesn’t matter if I do or not. It’s like each person decides for themselves what their truth is.

[00:37:02] Jesse: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it’s a very, it’s a very personal thing. And I think even like, I feel like using up for can teller is also like a very personal thing.

[00:37:10] Jesse: Oh, just because like the circumstances, um, from which you would want to go are usually like very impactful in your life. Yeah, mm-hmm

[00:37:20] Angela: did you also learn anything from your parents about, um, because I think part of what we wanted to talk about and you’ve already mentioned is just like experiences our families have had with fortune telling.

[00:37:30] Angela: For me. All I know is that, like we talked about the names thing, my dad definitely went to fortune teller to get options from my brother’s Chinese name. They didn’t do it for me because I was already in the us and, you know, fortune, Tell’s not as, um, practiced here, but what my mom has done separately. . It was like when Ramona and I got engaged and we were thinking about wedding dates, she definitely was like, oh, you need to tell me the dates that you’re thinking, because I need to like cross reference with like the lunar calendar to make sure that it’s not, uh, bad an unlucky date or whatever.

[00:38:04] Angela: And I don’t think she went to a fortune teller. I think there’s just like, I don’t know, sources like texts that she can reference. Kind of allude to these like lucky versus unlucky dates. Um, have your parents like referenced that kind of text or like, do they go to people for that kind of stuff?

[00:38:26] Jesse: Um, honestly they didn’t really, like, I asked them if they used it before and they did like, aside from the anecdote that my mom gave me, they didn’t really say, so I’m gonna say no, but I also think that like with certain common events like that, Wedding like a wedding date is a very common event.

[00:38:43] Jesse: Yeah. You can probably just, there’s probably something online that will let you tell, like the date, like astrology kind of like horrors go for today. Like yeah. Kind of situation. Um, for more like tricky things. I don’t know necessarily if there is. Um, but no, they didn’t, they didn’t particularly, they didn’t particularly want to share any potential traumas that they brought to the.

[00:39:11] Angela: What your age of parents didn’t wanna talk about feelings and drama, how bizarre .

[00:39:17] Jesse: Um, yeah, so they didn’t, they didn’t say anything. And so I was like, I’m not gonna press.

[00:39:21] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. The, well, the horoscope thing you mentioned is interesting because when I was doing the research, it was like, again, what’s the definition of fortune telling, right?

[00:39:33] Angela: Because, um, a different source that I was looking. Also lumped in things like the Chinese horoscope and like and all that stuff as defined under the realm of fortune telling. And so then I was like, I mean, anything could be fortune telling that because horoscopes in my mind is like, cross-cultural right.

[00:39:56] Angela: Like the idea of looking to the stars and kind of like where you fall in that is every culture has done that. Um, and. Yes, we have different animals in the Chinese Zodiac and you know, that horoscope, but like, you know, it is still based on things like your birth year or month or whatever, and kind of like personality traits that you’re supposedly have and, and all that.

[00:40:20] Angela: And, um, I don’t know if you know, but before, before she had a baby, one of the, uh, hobbies that she got into was astrology and it was. Really intense. She had like this massive book and she was also like, oh, I need to know the like exact date, like exact time you were born and like, which day of the week it was.

[00:40:40] Angela: And like all this stuff to like, find your real, um, astrological, like astrological, not fortune. That’s not how she said it, but like, yeah. What, what goes into kind of like your reading? Um, Which sounds exactly like the Chinese portrait life. ,

[00:40:58] Jesse: you know, what you, when you were just describing it, one other thing popped into my head and kind of like differences is I feel like, um, in media.

[00:41:07] Jesse: And how generally like Western fortune telling is portrayed is like, you’re going to the fortune teller to demystify like a past event or a future event. But to your point with like functionally and stuff, some of that kind of fortune telling isn’t so much trying to demystify the past or secure knowledge of the future, but it actually helps you build auspiciousness or fortune.

[00:41:34] Jesse: So like function rate is all is not necessarily. Demystifying your past, although you, you could, you could look at the room, the function, I have a room and say like, oh, you you’ve been sick because it’s arranged incorrectly. But the arrangement is to help you develop like better fortune or better health, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you will have it, or it’s not necessarily telling you something about a health event in your future.

[00:41:59] Angela: Yeah. And then the, the things like horo. Because now I’m like, are we all just like, are we all just seeking fortune telling all the time? Because when I grew up, like all those, like teeny Popp magazines, like J 14 and like 17 and whatever, they all have horoscopes. Right. And I love that section. I’d be like, Ooh, what’s my, you know, who am I gonna fall in love with?

[00:42:24] Angela: And like, what’s my career thing, you know? And. You seek you, you look for what you want, right? Because like they could say 20 things in there and three of them could sound kind of like something happening in your life and be like, yes, this is spot on . But yeah, I’ve been into that shit since I was like 13 and I’m.

[00:42:46] Angela: It’s so popular with like everyone it’s I, yeah. I don’t know if people even know that they’re like, I don’t know, falling under this, like umbrella of quote unquote, fortune telling.

[00:42:56] Jesse: Yeah. I feel like that that’s been around for a while, but also it’s hard to say as a kid into now, like how, how many people were into it and how serious they were.

[00:43:06] Jesse: Like, it certainly feels like it’s always been around, but it hasn’t been. so popular until recently. And also with the popularity, people taking it more seriously than they have been in the past. Like, I feel like yes for scripts have been around forever for me. I like reading them cuz I think they’re funny.

[00:43:26] Jesse: Um, like I, I, I only subscribe to the, the, the ones that are funny. So like the mean ones and like co-star like that they post like. Amusing stuff about star science. I see. But I also, I also know friends who take it like much, like are very serious about it. They’re like, it’s, it can be like impactful in your life.

[00:43:43] Jesse: And I’m like, oh wow. Like I didn’t never thought that people would not that there’s nothing wrong with that at all, but it just feels like it’s been more popularized and also more people are taking it, like, you know, to heart.

[00:43:55] Angela: I mean, yeah. I think there are a lot more people now who kind of see like your horoscope sign.

[00:44:01] Angela: As like a foundational kind of like identity marker of what kind of person you are. Right. Like it’s a trope, but you know, all the jokes about like, oh, you’re a Gemini. Oh, makes sense. Or like, you know, that kind of . Yeah. So I don’t know. It, it’s kind of fun to me to see. all these like different ways of defining mysticism, fortune telling all this stuff and like how common it is across different cultures.

[00:44:32] Angela: Even if, you know, we started this topic because we were interested in the way it was built up in Chinese culture. It’s just like, actually it’s a, it feels like there’s a human connection to all of it. It’s just like, everyone’s again, just trying to like, make sense of shit. We can’t make sense of.

[00:44:49] Jesse: Yeah, no.

[00:44:49] Jesse: Agreed. Totally.

[00:44:51] Angela: cool. Okay. Well, shall we go to the fortune cookie clothes? Absolutely. All right. So we wanted to end our topic on asking each other. If we would ever go to a fortune teller ourselves. Why, or why not? Jesse? You’re making a very skeptic look. Why don’t you go first?

[00:45:18] Jesse: Um, I think it depends on what kind of fortune teller that I would be going to, and also like how much it costs.

[00:45:28] Angela: okay. What if, what if, um, cost didn’t matter? Like, it was like, I was like, I’ll pay for whatever fruit dollar you want. So like, forget the cost. Okay. I think, and. Okay. You said depends on which type. So like which type would you definitely not go to? And which type would you actually go

[00:45:46] Jesse: to? I think the kind that I would go to is.

[00:45:50] Jesse: like a, like a Taiwanese or a Chinese fortune teller. And the reason that I would be doing that is cuz I have like an interest in seeing what that experience is like and having the conversation with the person about like how that works, but it I’m not necessarily bought into it. So I was recently listening to this other podcast and they were talking about how like, you know, it’s a.

[00:46:15] Jesse: Pair of gays. And they were saying how one of them went to, um, Seder or something like that with, with the Jewish family, um, the partners, the partners, Jewish family. And basically he was saying that they, they observed the holiday, but they don’t believe in any of. The mystical parts of Judaism mm-hmm , but they still participate in it because of what it represents for them in terms of their culture.

[00:46:42] Jesse: Mm-hmm um, as, as Jewish people. So that’s kind of the way that I, I think about it too. Like it’s not necessarily that I believe the thing, but I am interested in participating in it because it is part of my culture. And I wanna see what that experience is like. Hmm. Yeah.

[00:46:58] Angela: I mean, that makes sense. It reminds me of, like we talked about like, I mean, every Asian person goes to the temples and like, does the incense and bowing, even if you like, don’t necessarily believe in it or know what you’re doing with it is just like, oh, I’m supposed to do this.

[00:47:14] Angela: I’m supposed to like, bring a good look or something. Um, what about you? Um, I would definitely go to fortune C, but I think because I am already more primed to like, believe this kind of stuff in general, like spiritual things. I’m also very skeptical because of that, because I believe that there is truth in it.

[00:47:36] Angela: And like some people truly have some sort of, you know, ability. I think there, I, I believe that there are a lot of frauds out there, so I would do it, but only if I can find someone that has like a really, really strong reputation of. You know, having proven certain things or like, I don’t know. Someone I trusted, you know, said that they had like a really good.

[00:48:03] Angela: Um, fortune toing session or whatever, from someone then I would do it. It’s kind of, it’s the same way I approach, like, you know, with doing psychedelics, like we went to Peru and whatever, but we didn’t just like Google any old, like IASA in Peru and like bought that kind of thing. It was like, We had a friend who did it themselves and said, this is like legit.

[00:48:26] Angela: And so we did it. I see it similarly. It’s like, I see that there is value to be had in this kind of stuff. But I believe that there is a lot of people out there just to like scam you. So I, I wouldn’t go to just like any, like, I, I’m not trying to go to like, The like, uh, strip mall in some random LA like, you know, 9:00 PM, $20 taro card lady and be like, oh, she’s the one.

[00:48:51] Angela: But like, oh, I believe someone knows it.

[00:48:54] Jesse: so you would go to therea Caputo? No, I don’t

[00:48:58] Angela: believe her.

[00:49:03] Jesse: I P Theresa Kabuto.

[00:49:06] Angela: I, yeah, I would do it, but depends on.

[00:49:09] Jesse: awesome. Hmm. Well, this is a very interesting conversation. listeners, please let us know how. What you think about it? Uh, if you have had any experiences going to a fortune teller Western or otherwise, write it and tell us where you’re from@gmail.com or DMS on

[00:49:29] Angela: Instagram.

[00:49:30] Angela: Yes. And I’m, I selfishly I’m like particularly interested in the like spiritual, the spirit PO I dunno, you don’t like the word possession, but like, okay. The spirit. Um, yeah, yeah. Vessel thing. Like if anyone, especially in like Korea, because, uh, again, I brought this topic up initially because it was like, I keep seeing it in like Korean dramas and stuff.

[00:49:53] Angela: So I, I think it’s a little bit more. Uh, front, you know, front of mind or whatever for me, because of that. But like, I’m interested if anyone has like sought out that kind of fortune telling and has an experience there, I’d be interested to hear about it because we had to like a peripheral experience with that in our downest thing.

[00:50:12] Angela: But like, we were so young and like, didn’t really understand what was happening versus like someone who actively seeks out that kind of thing. Uh, write us in, be interested. And come back next week. So we’ll have another episode for you then. Um, and until then,

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A Musing on Traditional Versus Simplified Chinese


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Jesse: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin

[00:00:02] Angela: and I’m Angela Lin. Welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really from today? We are talking about something that we are not very good at, which is. Reading and writing Chinese Mandarin, um, and specifically the differences between simplified and traditional Chinese, because that has definitely been, I mean, personally, like a big challenge for me is kind of like navigating those two things when they appear.

[00:00:33] Angela: Articles or people write messages or whatever. Um, and kind of like getting to the root of what’s the history of like the divergence between the two, what are the main differences and why do we first gen kids have such an issue with understanding the two . All right. So we did a little bit of research, but if you know this pod, you know, our amount of research is, um, A Googling of many different things, but we are not experts as we never claim to be.

[00:01:08] Angela: So you can always write us in with your corrections, nicely with what we got wrong. If we got anything wrong. But, um, for me, it was like I had a personal interest in this topic because. Like, I think my first kind of like memory of seeing simplified Chinese growing up was in 2008 when, or 2008 or nine, because I visited Beijing with my family.

[00:01:39] Angela: And it was like after the Beijing Olympics. Um, and it was the first time that I had been. In China for a long time, like I was 18 or so at the time. And it had been, I don’t know, 10 years or something. So the last time I went and I’m sure, you know, I’m sure they used simplify Chinese on signs and stuff.

[00:01:56] Angela: When I visited China when I was a kid, but I didn’t care, you know, I wasn’t paying attention that stuff. But as an adult, I was walking around and especially. You know, 18, you and I went to Chinese school and, um, I think we’ve talked about, but growing up the community that we were raised in, like the Chinese speaking people largely were Taiwanese people.

[00:02:18] Angela: So then similarly the Chinese school that we went to taught traditional Chinese, and it was all like Taiwanese instructors. So we learned with like BPA MOA, which we’ll get into. Um, but yeah, so we, we only learned to like, read. Traditional. So I, it was around the time when we like graduated Chinese school and I was like, oh, just like as much Chinese as I’m ever gonna know.

[00:02:43] Angela: And then we go to China and I’m like, oh, I should be able to like, read everything. And I’m like, I can’t read shit. What are these characters? And it was the first time that I was like, wow, simplified feels like really different. So ever since then, it’s always been kind of like a diverging. Path for me. Um, and it, it, for me, it makes me feel a little like deficient, like.

[00:03:05] Angela: Not that I know everything in traditional Chinese either, but like the characters I do know, I feel like confident about, and I can largely kind of like guess things based on context, even if I don’t know every word, but when my dad sends like an article from China or something, I’m like, I can’t read any of this.

[00:03:23] Angela: And I, it like almost makes me feel worse about my already, like, you know, basic level Chinese understanding. Do you have like similar thoughts?

[00:03:35] Jesse: Well, you know, my parents are like, they don’t really have many ties to China, so it’s never been like a thing where I’ve had to be like I’ve had to encounter that or tried to.

[00:03:46] Jesse: Uh, read many of those characters, but you’re right. It is very confusing. And I think like, it’s even my parents are sometimes like, we can read it, but sometimes we have to guess what it is because you have to have like pretty good knowledge of most of the characters already to understand what the simplified version is, because I think there’s some kind of like, Um, what would you say?

[00:04:09] Jesse: There’s a method to the way that they simplify things? So it’s not just like random adjustments to the stand, the traditional characters, but there’s some like way that they went about simplifying all of them. So I, I think there are like some things that you can, if you’re already keenly familiar with the traditional aspect of it, you can probably tell what it is because most of the characters are.

[00:04:31] Jesse: Like, they’re not simplified to a way where if you look at them side by side, they’re completely different. Like some of the structure of each character is still the same, but it’s maybe like the interior of the character is like only three brush strokes instead of like 15 brush strokes or something like that.

[00:04:46] Jesse: So I think that. Yeah, it can be very confusing if, if you don’t even have full mastery of traditional Chinese, which I, I don’t.

[00:04:55] Angela: Yeah. I think that’s very true. And it’s also what I, uh, read on a bunch of Reddit threads that I was going down of, like people kind of discussing struggles with no, like reading between the two, um, I think you’re largely right, but let’s so let’s back it up.

[00:05:14] Angela: And from our like, Googling that we did explain a little bit about what we found of like where simplified came from and like what that method to the madness was. Um, so that everyone’s kind of on the same page. So from what I looked up simplify training use is like, H laws it’s complicated in terms of like, if you’re trying to pinpoint the exact history, because the like, I mean the main.

[00:05:44] Angela: The main thing about simplified Chinese that everyone thinks about is largely attributed to the fifties and sixties during the cultural revolution. Um, when, like everyone was illiterate in China. And so they, the communist party made like a really big push to introduce simplify Chinese as a way to quickly.

[00:06:08] Angela: Um, get people literate. And basically what they did was like slash a shit ton of characters out of the, out of the like list of all potential characters. Um, and they did a lot of those stuff, like you were saying where like, you know, some things that have like, just like a gazillion strokes that just like simply down to like an X or like something like that.

[00:06:33] Angela: Um, but others, um, I read that, you know, how in Chinese, Chinese is really confusing, especially for people who don’t speak it because there are so many words that sound exactly. Same, like they’re pronounced the same. They have the same intonation, but they mean different things. So something else that they did is that if there are multiple words with the same pronunciation, a lot of times they simplified that down by making all of them the exact same word.

[00:07:03] Angela: And usually the most basic, like the easiest to write. Um, one of the like five, if there were five, for example, um, So that’s how they kinda like slashed everything down. And then, but like to what I was saying about why it’s complicated is, um, like I remember when I talked to my dad about simplified Chinese, just kind of in passing and he was like, oh, simplify Chinese is like, ancient, actually.

[00:07:29] Angela: It’s like way older than people think. And. He’s like partially right. and partially wrong. Um, there’s like parts of simplified Chinese that come from really old times to like the Ching dynasty is what I found. Um, where I guess there was like a lot of cursive or like calligraphic, you know, type writing.

[00:07:51] Angela: And in that tradition, there is already. Kind of shorthand in some characters because it was easier to write. So a lot of the simplified characters, um, the way that they look in modern Chinese is like inspired by the cursive writing. So some of it came from that. So that’s why it’s like, oh, like you, you can claim that part of it is like fricking ancient.

[00:08:15] Angela: And then, but the majority of it came from like Mau times pretty much. Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways. First is by subscribing to us, rating us and reviewing us on apple podcasts and iTunes.

[00:08:37] Angela: Second is by telling a friend third is follow us on Instagram at where are you from? Fourth is supporting us on buym a coffee. You can find out more about all of these by visiting our Instagram’s Lincoln bio. And again, our handle is at where are you from pod. Thank you.

[00:08:58] Jesse: Yeah, I was gonna say like, although I didn’t really see much of it, like.

[00:09:03] Jesse: In terms of, um, information about its origin in the past. I’m not really surprised because I, I would imagine like for a language that’s been around this long, there must have been some simplification done already, like along the way, because otherwise, like how would. Most people have access to it. But yeah, I think it’s also like for people who aren’t familiar with Chinese, it can be very difficult to understand because Chinese is not a phonetic language.

[00:09:32] Jesse: It’s not like when you learn the alphabet, you can basically guess how to say every word that you read because it’s phonetic. Right. Even though you might not know. What’s Alber Jean, but you could say Alber Jean, when you read it, it’s a color, by the way. I’m like, what’s Algen, it’s a color. It’s a, it’s like a red, deep, deep red color.

[00:09:51] Jesse: Um, but it’s not phonetic, so yeah, you have to actually memorize what each word sounds like, which is why it’s such a difficult proposition. Like imagine, trying to imagine, uh, memorize what all the English words sounds like without understanding. the alphabet, like it would be close to

[00:10:10] Angela: impossible. Yeah.

[00:10:11] Angela: Yeah. Well, let’s get let’s, um, sidebar that, uh, the kind of like phonetic or alphabet part of it, because I think there’s, um, mm-hmm, , mm-hmm, a lot of interesting stuff to be had there. Um, the thing about like, not knowing how it’s pronounced, um, just the. by the way that it looks, I think that’s partially true.

[00:10:30] Angela: And then part of that is also where we now diverge as first gen failed Chinese school kids versus like native speaking people, because I didn’t dig into like, just like the so or deep, you know, whatever of it all. But part of what I read in those threads where people were kind of like debating between the simplified versus, or traditional and like pros, cons, blah, blah.

[00:10:54] Angela: Um, some people were talking about like, in traditional Chinese. Um, like the components are made up on purpose. Like everything’s really thought out in terms of like how each character is built and there are different components of each character and one of the components is called like a radical or whatever, which is usually like the, you know, like what’s on the side.

[00:11:19] Angela: Um, or like what’s on the top, right? Like there’s like gen Zong, which is like, The thing I wanna say. Yeah. Anyways. So like certain radicals will give you a hint into either what the character means or kind of what it might sound like. Um, because for example, like we talked about our names last time. And the middle word in my name is when, and like, it looks very similar to the word bowl.

[00:11:50] Angela: So if you know the word bowl and you looked at the word that’s in my name, you could probably guess , it sounds like one, and then you’d be right. Um, and there’s like a ton of where it’s kind of similar to that. So I think this part is like, it’s. In exact science of like every word you can exactly. Guess what it might sound like based on knowing the components.

[00:12:12] Angela: But I do think we as like for Shen kids who are not super native in reading and writing. Are at a disadvantage in like being able to leverage that kind of like, you know, foundational part of how the language was built versus native people probably would disagree with us that like, you can’t guess how it sounds based on, you know, the, the parts of the character.

[00:12:34] Angela: Um, so yeah, just playing devil’s advocate

[00:12:37] Jesse: there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes sense. And there’s probably also some, as you were mentioning, there’s some cult cultural context background. We lack that could be help that we haven’t been taught about because, you know, we didn’t grow up in an Asian country that can help you identify what some of those characters are because like the traditional characters are well, was the thing that I it’s like close to higher.

[00:13:00] Jesse: Gothics kind of, they’re like pick, pick pictoral characters, like they’re supposed to represent. Visually, whatever it is that it’s describing. So if it’s like water at some point, the like original version of it looked like a drawing of water, and then it got like adjusted, adjusted, adjusted. Tony became the character, but it’s supposed to represent visually, like what something is that it describes?

[00:13:23] Angela: Yeah, totally. And I, I think we were taught that in Chinese school and I thought it was like super cool. Mm-hmm um, yeah, there’s, there’s so many things like that. And it, it makes me also wonder if like, you know, if ancient Egyptian civilization still existed today, like. If you could trace back like what their modern version of their higher lifts would look like today, because it’s kind of similar in terms of like the evolution of Chinese, because yeah, a lot of them like even kind of crazy looking ones, like the character for horse is like so many strokes and it doesn’t.

[00:13:56] Angela: Look, you know, first, first glance, like a horse at all, but if you like, kind of like start massaging how harsh the lines are and like give it a few curves and a few, you know, creative liberties, then you’re like, oh, there’s a horse in there. like somewhere.

[00:14:12] Jesse: So, yeah. Yeah. And this is like one of those things that it’s just like really hard and someone can tell me if I’m wrong, but I feel.

[00:14:19] Jesse: When you’re learning a language, it’s really hard to do it in the vacuum of the culture that it comes from, because there are so many about. Context in which, uh, in which people use language in a specific way, and just like, uh, the specific kinds of conversations or the specific places that they’re having conversations that really queue you into, like what something might mean, if it’s, you don’t know what it is.

[00:14:43] Jesse: So I think it’s really hard to learn that in a vacuum. And we did go to Chinese school for almost like 13 years, but it’s not like we were. Using Mandarin all the time, or like reading and writing it all the time. So the context in which we were using, it was purely like academic. So there are probably like many situations where we just did don’t have the learning from that to be able to like, guess better at what the character might be.

[00:15:10] Angela: Yeah. I mean, to be fair, we did speak or at least I, my parents forced me to speak Mandarin at home and we had to read, you know, the Confucius text that we sometimes talk about, um, on this show. But yeah, I agree. It’s always been very. like more academic and then even speaking with parents, that’s, that’s just talking like that.

[00:15:30] Angela: Doesn’t help you with the reading and writing portion, which is why my speaking has always been a lot better than my literacy um, so yeah, totally. And I mean, it would be a whole other rabbit hole that I don’t think we need to go down, but like you mentioned the cultural context, right? Like we’re never gonna fully understand things like.

[00:15:53] Angela: Slang and like, you know, internet just speak or whatever, just the same way as like someone who’s learning English wouldn’t necessarily understand all of our random acronyms that we use all the time and online speak or anything like that. So, yeah, it is what it is. Um, but just adding like a little bit more color into.

[00:16:19] Angela: Again, kind of like why we are coming with it at a certain perspective. Um, traditional versus simplified also for those who don’t know, cause I didn’t know the exact countries, but, um, they’re both used today in like modern society, but it does kind of break down pretty cleanly into which countries like you can kind of tell which country someone’s from.

[00:16:43] Angela: Based on whether they’re using traditional or simplified Chinese. So simplified Chinese is like all of mainland China uses that. And it’s like, from what I’ve found, it’s it seems to be a little like up in the air. If they, if people who know simplified Chinese can always read traditional Chinese, I think it’s.

[00:17:06] Angela: largely. Yes, because again, they look like similar enough, if you’re native and again, with context, you can kind of like, yes, the rest, but it’s not like 100% crossover. Um, and then I think Singapore also uses simplified, but then Taiwan, which is, you know, where our family’s from is traditional Chinese. Hong Kong is traditional Chinese.

[00:17:30] Angela: Um, I forget if Macau is on. I forget which side Macau is on. I think Macau is yeah.

[00:17:37] Jesse: Traditional, I think traditional.

[00:17:38] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it’s funny because it is kind of like an identity, like giveaway right away. Um, and I think I may have mentioned this, but I helped Ramon with his startup, like, um, a few months back just for like a few weeks.

[00:17:54] Angela: And they have a discord channel of all like Chinese speaking people. And I could tell right away because they were all writing and simplify Chinese that they’re all from China. and I had to be like a temporary moderator for a few weeks, which is like one of the hardest things I’ve ever done because I was doing, uh, multiple levels of like translation to make sure that I was conveying things correctly, but I, I could only type in traditional cause I was like, I can’t verify, like if I chose to type in simplified using.

[00:18:26] Angela: Um, pinging, which we’ll get into in a hot second. Like if I did that, I would not be able to verify if what I’m typing is correct, because I cannot read simplify Chinese versus like, if I type in pinging and I have it. CR create traditional characters. I can more or less be like, yeah, that’s what I that’s the character I meant to write.

[00:18:47] Angela: Um, so I I’m sure they were kind of like confused about why they’re, the one person with like any sort of connection to the companies only, uh, writing in traditional Chinese, whereas everyone else was writing instant simplified. So we, we have dropped little sprinkles here and there about, uh, phonetic systems alphabet.

[00:19:12] Angela: And I’ve mentioned pinging now. So. One of the other like big differences. And again, this won’t make like commerce sense to those that don’t speak Chinese. So maybe you’re learning a lot today, but, um, there are like two different kind of alphabetic, um, systems that help people learn Chinese. And it does differ based on whether you are learning traditional versus simplified.

[00:19:38] Angela: And also largely like if you’re Taiwanese versus. Anything else almost, um, because there’s a random alphabet that was, it’s not random, but there’s an alphabet that is unique to Taiwan. Um, called ING Fu ha otherwise known more colloquially as BOPA, because those are like the first for, um, letters of the alphabet, much like you, you would say B, C, D.

[00:20:06] Angela: Um, and you learn that. As a child, like we learned it in Chinese school. And essentially what it is, is like it’s a set of, I don’t know how many it is. May maybe it’s like 20 something like the English alphabet, but you still have to like memorize each of those characters and what sound that they make. Um, so it’s not obvious when you look at a one of those alphabet characters, what sound that would make, but once you’ve memorized that sound.

[00:20:37] Angela: basically the way they teach kids is like you would have a book or whatever, and it would have the Chinese characters, but then next to it, it would have these like alphabetic, um, characters kind of spelling out the sound that that character makes so that you can start associating the correct pronunciation of a word with this alphabet.

[00:21:01] Angela: Um, so I mean, I loved it growing up and I was like, oh, I feel super literate. If you could just write everything in Bo booma I could like read everything. Um, but that’s not, that’s not super legit, I guess.

[00:21:17] Jesse: I feel like the association part did not really happen for me. I was like, oh my God, I can read these things so quickly using the Buffa, but then I’m I never remembered what the actual character was, because like you said, Um, there’s like, you know, maybe like 30 something characters and then there’s like, what was it?

[00:21:36] Jesse: Uh, uh, like four tonal intonations up, down flat punk punctu. Is that what you call it? Punctual punctu middle, like a what’s called like a staccato kind of yeah. Thing. Yeah. And, um, so it was just like, and, and you could have like three of them with one intonation, but that could still. Five characters, 10 different characters.

[00:22:00] Jesse: Like, so it was still really, really hard to like, remember each character because you have to like, specifically remember what it sounds like.

[00:22:08] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where the memorization comes in. Um, and again, this is also where, like, we are probably at a disadvantage because native people probably. Have the, you know, like the components of the character could help them as well.

[00:22:25] Angela: But for us, it was literally just like, you gotta just memorize what these sounds are and which word it’s associated with. Um, but yeah, so that, that’s how Taiwan teaches kids, how to read. Um, but China and a lot of other Chinese speaking countries now use. Something called he, you pinging, which you’ve probably seen, or at least the words like pinging, because it is like the standard way of izing Chinese, uh, because it uses Romanized AKA.

[00:23:00] Angela: English. like, you know, Latin based, um, characters or sounds to spell out what a word sounds like. And I will also add, I found a fun fact about the quote unquote father of pinging. His name is. So yo GU um, and he died in 2017 at the age of 111. Get it y’all. But anyways, he, he is like largely attributed with creating pinging and.

[00:23:33] Angela: apparently at the time that he first started working on developing the system that would become honey pinging, 85% of Chinese people could not read or write. So it was like not only was making simplified characters, part of what expedited literacy, but like without honey pinging, as the kind of like aid in associating, the, the sounds with the characters.

[00:23:59] Angela: People would not have gone there. So one up to you, man, in big up in the sky or wherever you are. But, um, so yeah, so that, and as like a, just like a personal anecdote when it first started rolling out more in like, I don’t know, more broadly. So like I personally, again, remember it more in the kind of like 2008, 2009 timeframe, um, of when I first started learning how to use it.

[00:24:28] Angela: and like texting or like, um, on my computer typing with it. And I was like, this is magic because I couldn’t type, um, zing or B like, um, for anyone who’s ever seen a Taiwanese keyboard, they have the like, , you know, the alphabet that’s Taiwanese alphabet on the, the key pad, but it’s really hard to know how to use that unless you’re like native cuz it’s, it’s not super intuitive versus like hanging ping as someone who’s American born was like super intuitive for me because I was like, oh, I know what this is supposed to sound like.

[00:25:03] Angela: So like, I would just spell it out in, in quote, unquote English. And then it would like show me all the possible words that make that sound. And I could use like my context clues or like my memory of what that word should look like and, and type out what I wanted to say. So. like, I’m really happy that that thing exists because I, I would not be able to like text type at all in Chinese without honey pinging.

[00:25:31] Jesse: You know, what’s really funny is that like, I I’m, I’m fairly certain, we started learning it at the same time, because it’s something they rolled out in like Chinese school. Right. To make it easier for people to learn the characters. I feel like that’s, I’m sure I’m not sure you think so. Okay. That’s how I remember it, but I will say that my.

[00:25:47] Jesse: Familiarity or correctness in, in interpreting, um, the different kinds of phonetic alphabets, if you will, the Julianne versus Henry P I’m actually better at the DeWine. Like I understand it much better than the, he, you know, like a lot of the times I would be like, angel, I don’t understand how to this, like Z H a O what does that mean?

[00:26:09] Jesse: Like, I, it is just like, it wasn’t intuitive to me. And I’m also really curious because like, do people in, in China learn characters using honey P no. Right. It’s mostly for foreigners trying to learn because then they would have to learn the alphabet. And then I

[00:26:30] Angela: look, I don’t know the like full mechanics of it, but.

[00:26:34] Angela: Um, I think it was also aiding Chinese people because otherwise the article I read about the father of honey pinging or whatever, I don’t understand why they would’ve made that note about at the time, you know, he created it. Most people were I literate. Um, I think it must have aid in some way, but I, so I.

[00:26:58] Angela: get where you’re coming from in that, like, it doesn’t always make sense to pronunciation. And there was a tiny bit of like memorization for me when I learned honey pinging, because some, a lot of things make just like total sense in terms of like what it sounds like and what it looks like in the, um, English letters.

[00:27:16] Angela: But some of them are like a bit of a stretch and you have to kind of. Yeah, you kind of have to memorize like what they meant with that. Um, which is why, I don’t know if you found this in your research, Taiwan had rolled out their version of pinging, um, be it’s it’s complicated. So technically Taiwan did officially adopt honey pinging as their like, official way of, you know, um, Uh, alphabetizing or whatever Chinese in, um, or izing Chinese in 2009, but it’s complicated because there were actually four different systems like, um, phonetic sensations in Taiwan and there’s no.

[00:28:05] Angela: Requirement that any governmental body or any individual person use any specific one . So everyone’s like aha, as, and all over the place in terms of like the way that they’re spelling everything and no one cares and they’re not gonna like, bother to universalize it, but. there is a different, um, spec, like there are four, as I mentioned, but there was like one main one that they were trying to like push as the nude, like Taiwan way, um, called tone Y um, and they tried to rationalize that, like they were replacing some of the letters that don’t make sense.

[00:28:48] Angela: So like the ones that you probably were like, I Don. See how this makes that sound. So for example, like in Henry pinging, the X makes like a, she sound so like X I a O would be shell. And in Toon they use an S so that it, like, you know, that sound is like more intuitive. Um, and they made a few more of those kinds of like adjustments, but it just never picked up.

[00:29:15] Angela: Like it never became a thing. So Henry King is still like the main. You know, Romanized way of phonetically spelling out Chinese for most people across the world. Um, yeah. Yeah. I dunno.

[00:29:33] Jesse: yep. I, um, I don’t, yeah, that’s the thing is I don’t, I still don’t use any of it very much. So,

[00:29:39] Angela: I mean, I use it largely because, um, my mom texts in Chinese, so it’s my only way of like responding back to her in Chinese.

[00:29:48] Angela: I have to. in some way, and I’m not gonna be able to type in swimming full hall, cuz that’s so hard. So that’s why I learned honey pinging honestly

[00:29:57] Jesse: is texting. Oh, okay. Okay. Understand, understand. Well, we were just talking about like the differences between China and Taiwan. Did you dig, did you, I can, I’m gonna speculate why there are differences, but did you actually dig up any analysis about it?

[00:30:12] Jesse: Because like, for me I’m like, I don’t really know why there’s a difference and it’s mostly like, it’s like a. Culture as political capital kind of situation where it’s like, whichever one has the most cultural influence is like more official, like official the official China, cuz they’re, they’re both the official China.

[00:30:32] Angela: Yeah. I don’t think there’s gonna be a like, official answer to this, but the most obvious and speculated one is just for political reasons. Um, . I mean, as I said, honey, pinging is like the most used phonetic system for Chinese trans or not translation, but Chinese association across the world. And for Taiwan, not to really want to use that or like universally use that is largely because they wanna stay independent from China.

[00:31:04] Angela: Um, so yeah, that’s why, but I guess there’s also, I, if I had. There’s also a bit of like, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it in terms of like the use of ING Fu hall or, or BPA, um, that Chi Wiese character alphabet for teaching Chinese to kids. Cuz it’s the way that they’ve been teaching kids for like, you know, a long time and it’s, it’s worked.

[00:31:26] Angela: So they’re like, eh,

[00:31:28] Jesse: yeah, honestly. And then, like I said, from my own personal experience, learning to two things, like I, I think that for me buff is easier because it’s actually. it’s kind of like fewer things you have to learn because in the Henry ping version, you have to learn the alphabet than like what all of those, like a, B, C, D whatever.

[00:31:50] Jesse: And then you have to learn the combinations of some of those sounds as well in order to translate that into the equivalent of like Henry ping character. So for me, it was like easier to memorize fewer characters, even though they were like foreign than it is to at least when I’m like, thinking about it from.

[00:32:07] Jesse: Simplicity perspective, then it would be to learn the alphabet and then like the different phonetical pairings of what alphabet looks sounds like. And then like match that to a character. That’s like a lot of decoding that’s happening here.

[00:32:23] Angela: Yeah. I think to each a zone and everyone has kind of like different.

[00:32:27] Angela: Learning things that work better for them. Um, and actually, as we’re talking about like the different alphabet potentials and stuff, so remember I set my, um, new year’s resolution was to get at least like preschool or kindergarten level of Japanese down because we plan to live in Japan for a couple months this year.

[00:32:47] Angela: Um, so I’m learning it via duo lingo right now. If y’all don’t know that it’s a. It’s a really good app. It’s free, free version of ads, which sucks, but it it’s still like a pretty well structured, um, language teaching up. But anyways, so, um, Japanese has. Two alphabets as well. Um, and I won’t get into the history of it, but basically their, their alphabets are similar to BOPA in terms of like, if you memorize what sound that specific character makes, you can spell out every like Japanese word, essentially, like you could read it.

[00:33:26] Angela: You wouldn’t know what it means, but you could read it. And then like the exception is. Because Japan, China history, blah, blah. There are many like Chinese words also still used in Japanese. So then like a lot of times the lessons will like first teach you how it. Sounds in the Japanese alphabet. And then in the, like the next level up, they’ll make you memorize the Chinese character and associate it with that sound because in real life you will more likely see the Chinese character and not the Japanese, uh, alphabet

[00:34:03] Jesse: characters.

[00:34:04] Jesse: A and the character is like a traditional more similar to a traditional Chinese character, right. Versus a simplified,

[00:34:11] Angela: um, sorry, the Japanese characters or

[00:34:14] Jesse: the, like the Chinese, Japanese charact. They’re more similar to traditional Chinese characters versus simplifying. They don’t

[00:34:19] Angela: look like Chinese, the Japanese character, like the Japanese alphabet.

[00:34:23] Angela: It doesn’t look like Chinese, not the

[00:34:24] Jesse: alphabet, the words that it represents traditional.

[00:34:28] Angela: Yeah. Largely traditional. Although there were some it’s so complicated. Like once you go down the like linguistics rabbit hole um, there was someone on one of the threads kind of like piping in with like, oh, simplified as like Japanese and like.

[00:34:42] Angela: Then someone made the whole like side by side of like traditional Chinese simplify Chinese, Japanese. Yeah. It’s a whole thing. But I would say most of the time it is the traditional Chinese character, but sometimes they have ones that look like simplify Chinese and sometimes exist in simplify Chinese.

[00:35:00] Angela: Sometimes they made up and it was like a, a simpler version of the Chinese word that is not the simplified Chinese charact.

[00:35:09] Jesse: Well, that’s actually a good point that I, I think that I, it is also interesting to mention is that like the traditional characters represent some form of the heritage, like the traditional heritage of China from like thousands and thousands of years ago.

[00:35:24] Jesse: And I think it’s something that. At least from my perspective in talking to my parents and like from other, you know, just like my feel of Taiwan in general, that they hold like more important versus the, uh, folks in, in China. Because, you know, after the modernization of China, you know, from our conversations with other guests, they were kind of saying like, We don’t care about the past.

[00:35:46] Jesse: Like our motive now is like future, future, future. And so the simplification of the language kind of discards the traditions and the heritage around the language for expediency versus like, I think the people from Taiwan are more, they’re more protective of what that, uh, what heritage, that language, the traditional version of the language represe.

[00:36:11] Angela: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, there’s a reason why, when you see Chinese characters still in all the other Asian cultures, like you see some in Korean, you see some in Japanese, like sometimes Vietnamese things also have Chinese on them and it’s always the traditional word because that is. The time, you know, the era, the historical context in which Chinese had some influence, like Chinese society had some influence on those cultures.

[00:36:40] Angela: It’s not the like modern simplified down version of that language. And I agree. I mean, we, again, you, and I don’t know, like the full context of everything, because we are not super literate in the traditional Chinese characters either, but. like, I’ve always admired that there is so much, you could break down from like any given character of like where it came from, what it means and all that.

[00:37:05] Angela: And a lot of times with the simplified, they just take out the whole. like a whole part of the word altogether. And it’s just like, you, you wouldn’t know where that thing came from anymore, if that part was removed. So, yeah, which I think brings us to our clothes, our fortune cookie, we wanted to talk about, um, the most bizarre or.

[00:37:33] Angela: Crazily different word that, uh, between like traditional versus simplified Chinese. So I did a little bit of research. I’m sure. It’s not like I’m sure people who are like, actually literate would debate us on this. Um, but I found a few. Jesse, did you have a favorite though that you found that you wanted to bring to the table?

[00:37:54] Angela: Um,

[00:37:55] Jesse: honestly for me, they’re all really bizarre. um, I would probably say, like, if you look at them side by side, I would say like, that makes sense. But if you ask me to read something, I will be like, I don’t, I don’t know what that is. Like. Um, maybe the one that’s the most, um, jarring for me is mud. Cuz in simplified, it’s literally just like a box with like a da like a da like a little feather dash.

[00:38:26] Jesse: Yeah. On the side of it versus. Um, the traditional version of it. I know this one very well. And I also know the, the history of it, of it being a pictogram. So I’m like, oh, I know what this is because it looks like, um, like saloon doors mm-hmm like Western saloon doors. So that’s how I remember what it looks like.

[00:38:45] Jesse: But the, the simplified version doesn’t it just is a, it’s like a, it’s like a square without the bottom part of it. And there’s a little feather, feather, a stroke on the like, Left part of it. So it’s just empty. Yeah. So it doesn’t look like it doesn’t look like a door to me. So I’m like, this is . I dunno what this is at all.

[00:39:09] Angela: Yeah, I agree. I mean, yeah. Again, like all the traditional characters came from like a specific drawing almost right. Like the caveman type drawing. So you could. Guess you could extrapolate, but yeah, a lot of shit is just like completely wiped out. I had similar ones, so like, um, I also looked up though, like at, uh, when we were doing our research in terms of like how certain characters became what they were and simplified.

[00:39:34] Angela: So a lot of times they did exactly what you just said, which just like, they just like stripped it. Right. It was. They left, like just the outline, pretty much of the word. And they were like, this is the new word. And then sometimes they just like replaced it all together with something that doesn’t look anything like it, like there’s a zero like border or anything still left.

[00:39:55] Angela: There’s just like something completely new. Um, yeah, there’s a whole like series of them that are like, what happened here, but. If you know how to write Chinese, you may be familiar with like one of the, maybe it’s called a radical, I don’t know. One of the main components is sometimes this thing that’s like, um, at the top where there’s like a dash and then a stroke and then like a tail kind of right.

[00:40:20] Angela: There’s like this, um, Top component. And then there’re like a billion words that you there’s so many words that have that thing at the top, a dash it’s a horizontal line. And then it’s like, it’s like a tail or like a Cape off the, okay.

[00:40:38] Jesse: Okay. I think I understand what you’re saying. Okay. Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:42] Angela: It’s a, it’s like a very foundational component of a lot of different characters in Chinese. And you would not be able to know like, what word is gonna be in there until, you know, until you have the like second part, the thing that fits underneath the, the Cape or whatever. Right. Um, so the word Guang, like.

[00:41:06] Angela: Oh, and I probably am getting this wrong, like Guang ch or like Guangdong or whatever I think is this good? Is this word anyways? So it is that whole thing underneath it, basically it has the word yellow, like underneath the Cape thing. That’s how you write Guang and the simplified Chinese. They just took all of the, the yellow out.

[00:41:27] Angela: So it’s just the Cape. It’s just the top thing and the Cape, and that’s supposed to be Guang, but like I said, that Cape top Cape thing is like the foundation of a million different words. God. And you’re just supposed to know, oh my gosh, that it’s supposed to be Guang. I’m like, okay, well, wow.

[00:41:45] Jesse: well, part two part two, uh, are names and simplified Chinese.

[00:41:50] Jesse: I like to go first on this, because mine’s exactly the same go mama Lin. My mom was like, my mom told me when we did the names episode. I, I said it, she said she’s picked my name specifically. So it was easy to write. And guess what mama. It’s not any different. It simplified it’s exactly the same.

[00:42:08] Angela: Well, spoiler alerts.

[00:42:10] Angela: So is my, even though so that, here’s where it’s like, again, there’s no like science necessarily like black and white, you know, element to the Simplifi versus traditional because I mean, humans still made the decision at the end of the day, in terms of like, which words were gonna get simplified down or not.

[00:42:29] Angela: And like, you’d think that the rule of thumb is if they has just. Too many strokes it to create the character. They would just like make it simplified. But it’s not always the case because like I, we talked about in the names of the episode, my name has a ton of strokes. Like the second and third words have so many strokes, but they, they don’t have simplified versions.

[00:42:50] Angela: It’s still the same characters. So D know y’all D. My name

[00:42:54] Jesse: is really, really short.

[00:42:56] Angela: They not, yeah, your shirt’s easy. So there’s a shit. It makes sense that it would not be simplified, but my shirt’s kind of hard, so I don’t know why it’s not simplified.

[00:43:04] Jesse: sorry.

[00:43:06] Angela: So, no, y’all any hoots

[00:43:09] Jesse: here we are. Yeah. Well listeners, if you had a good time listening to us chat about the differences between the language or you have some additional context you like to add yourself, or you just want to tell us some fun anecdote, maybe about differences in your name or some fun, confusing story that you encountered when you were trying to translate between the character sets.

[00:43:30] Jesse: Please go ahead.

[00:43:31] Angela: If you have any tricks for memorizing. Yeah. Yes. The difference, understanding the traversing,

[00:43:38] Jesse: the two. I mean, I still don’t know because traditional I’m still like, blah, you’re like Mala. I’m like,

[00:43:43] Angela: uh . Oh, son. .

[00:43:47] Jesse: Um, feel free to write us in, let us know what your experience is at. Tell us where you’re from@gmail.com or feel free also to DM us on Instagram.

[00:43:58] Angela: Yup. Um, and come back next week because we’ll have another fresh episode for you then. And until then, bitches.

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The Importance of a Family Name


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Jesse: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin.

[00:00:02] Angela: And I’m Angela Lin, welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really from today? We have an interesting topic, at least for us, hopefully for you too. We wanna talk about. Our names or in general, the topic of having kind of two or more names, potentially. If you are from multiple cultures, what goes into coming up with those names?

[00:00:29] Angela: What potential baggage do we carry? Because we have multiple names and everything else to do with that topic. Um, so. As we’ve said many times throughout this podcast, we are both Taiwanese American. so outside of our English, Western names of Angela and Jesse, we also have Chinese names, which we used plenty growing up, especially because we went to Chinese school every Sunday and to write and go by those names.

[00:01:03] Angela: Um, so I think we were kicking this off by sharing what our Chinese names are, um, and kind of how we. About that, about having them. So my Chinese name is Ling. We, what about you, Jesse?

[00:01:20] Jesse: Mine’s Ling. J.

[00:01:23] Angela: All right. So what did you think about having a Chinese name growing up? Because was like, was it weird to share that name for you?

[00:01:36] Angela: to other people in any context specifically, or, or was it just like whatever? I have two

[00:01:41] Jesse: names. I think it definitely depended on who you were talking to. So if you were talking to like your mom’s friend, like an Asian auntie or anyone else who spoke Mandarin, or, you know, primarily you were gonna be talking to the mid Mandarin, it wasn’t as weird because that’s kind of like, it’s almost like your default, like your default name is that when you’re speaking in Mandarin, But then when you were like, I mean, we’ve like talked about this before, like when you’re in school in other situations where people are like, oh yeah, like what’s really your name.

[00:02:13] Jesse: Or like, um, can you, can you tell me your Mandarin? It’s like a little bit weird because it’s like, The closest thing that I, I can approximate it to would be like meeting a person and being like, oh, what’s your Christian name? is this like a weird thing to just like randomly ask somebody? Yeah. So yeah, that’s that’s those are the situations where I’ve been like, oh, like, why do you wanna know?

[00:02:36] Jesse: I, I can tell you, but it’s like a little bit strange. And plus like it doesn. Mean anything to it doesn’t even like, I don’t even know necessarily the meaning of my name. So I’m like, if it doesn’t mean anything to me, it doesn’t mean anything to you. So yeah, there were definitely like those situations where people were just kind of like asking randomly, I would be like, why do you wanna know?

[00:02:55] Jesse: It’s a little bit strange. Yeah. What about you?

[00:02:58] Angela: Yeah, same. I think it definitely was just kind of normal. If the person you were talking to was already speaking to in Chinese, because even though. Okay. So you kind of mentioned that, like, what’s your real name thing, and it is like triggering. I think when someone asks you what your real name is after you’ve given the, you know, the English name that you definitely go by.

[00:03:18] Angela: But I think there is this other kind of like flip side with. which is that if someone is speaking to you in Chinese, you’re like, quote, unquote, real name is your Chinese name. You’re like, they don’t wanna know your English name. Right. So mm-hmm, um, it’s like in that context, it’s your quote unquote real name, but yeah, when someone.

[00:03:37] Angela: non-Chinese speaking asks for that. I always found, like, it felt like we were like dancing monkeys or something, you know, they’re like, Ooh, tell me, you’re like, do the thing. Tell me the thing. Yeah. And it’s like, shut up also. It’s like, why am I even telling you you’re gonna Cher it. You can’t speak Chinese.

[00:03:54] Angela: Like there’s yeah. Chinese pronunciation is really hard. So it’s like, you’re not gonna say it. Right. And it’s weird. I never enjoyed it. When someone would ask me what that was. Um, you mentioned that you didn’t even necessarily know what your name meant and I definitely didn’t know. I think I swear to God.

[00:04:16] Angela: I think one time during Chinese school, they did make us like look up what our names meant and like maybe present it in class or something. But that was so long ago. I definitely don’t re I didn’t remember it. So we. Respectively asked our parents. what our names mean, um, recently, and that’s kind of how we knew it in this most recent time.

[00:04:43] Angela: So, Jessie, what did you find out about your name?

[00:04:48] Jesse: Oh, I feel like they didn’t really explain it that well, like in terms of what it actually means, but what they did explain was when drawing the name. So they told me that there are like these elements that, um, every person is born with something like. Fire or, you know, your regular or something elements.

[00:05:09] Jesse: Yeah. And when you’re born, you go to a person who basically calculates, it’s kind of like astrology a little bit or numerology, something like that. And they calculate based off of the date and time you were born, like what properties of different elements you have. and then they create your name to balance you out where you are deficient or like, I hate the word overindexing, but it’s like the best word, like deficient or overindexing in a specific element.

[00:05:44] Jesse: And then like, that’s how they, that’s how they draw your name.

[00:05:47] Angela: Okay. So my dad actually told me the exact same thing, but he was talking about it more in like his generation. He said it was more common that people kind of named their kids to make up for the lack of a certain element. And, and I let’s just say what this elements are.

[00:06:03] Angela: I think it’s, um, my dad told me it was gold. AKA metal fire, water earth, and hold on wood or something. Oh yeah. And wood. Yeah. Yeah. But then he said, . Yeah, like if you were deficient like one or two of them, then they’d use that word in some way in your name, whether it was like literally that word or, you know, in Chinese, there are a lot of characters that are kinda like combo words that have, like, you could include the word gold in it, but like add a thing on the right or bottom or whatever, and it becomes something else.

[00:06:38] Angela: But your name doesn’t have any specific elements. What is,

[00:06:42] Jesse: I mean, the middle character of my name is ho home. Yeah. It could be interpreted as home. So maybe I’m not, I lack, um, a home element

[00:06:53] Angela: earth, like, is that

[00:06:55] Jesse: supposed to be earth? Uh, well, theme is. SHA. I mean, it’s a family. Name’s also, yeah. That’s your family name?

[00:07:00] Jesse: Yeah, that that’s okay. Okay. Um, I don’t know. I honestly, like I asked them and I don’t think that they really understood how it was picked. They just kind of like described kind of the world of what was happening when the name selection occurs. But it is actually one of the things that is common when you’re introducing your.

[00:07:20] Jesse: Chinese name to other Chinese people is you’ll be like, oh, you know, my name’s DJA Shaul. And then you’ll like, explain what the character looks like. There have so many characters sound exactly the same mm-hmm , which is I think very interesting and different from how you would introduce like, An English name.

[00:07:36] Jesse: Like you would never be like my name’s, you know, Jesse with Y some people do that, but I don’t feel like a lot of people do that. You just say like my name’s Jesse or my name’s, whatever. It’s not

[00:07:46] Angela: as common. It’s not as common unless you’re spelled in like a weird way. Yeah. I think that’s something difficult to wrap your head around.

[00:07:54] Angela: If you don’t speak. I, I assume that other Asian languages have kind of similar stuff because there’s, um, similar pronunciations for many different words, but yeah, it is, it is kind of funny. Like they always, you are supposed to like, explain how your name is written when you spell, like yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then I guess like, I mean, because we are we’re first gen, so we’re not as good at Chinese as, uh, you know, native born folks.

[00:08:20] Angela: But I guess they, like, if you explain which word it is, they kind of already know what it means a little bit too. Um, without having to look it up, which is kind of weird, but, um, yeah, so my name, I went through an extensive, I asked extensively about my name, first of all, apparently. Uh, I don’t know about yours.

[00:08:43] Angela: It sounds like you just had, like, I think you had a fortune teller, cuz that’s what my dad called those people, even though they did what you said and you called them astrologers or whatever. But, um, he said that. We, they had like multiple names options for both me and my brother. I don’t know about you.

[00:09:02] Angela: Like, was it just like, do you know if there were like a bunch and then they just like chose one or they were like, this is his name deal with it? No, I

[00:09:09] Jesse: think, I think there were a few options and then they let the parents pick, like which option they liked the most.

[00:09:15] Angela: Okay. Yeah. So same with my brother. Um, because apparently.

[00:09:21] Angela: They, I didn’t have a fortune teller involved in my name choosing because I was born in America. Um, so I guess it was not really a thing as opposed to my brother who was born in Taiwan and he’s the first born. So it was like a big deal. Um, so they definitely went to fortune teller, but my dad told me that originally for my brother, he chose, he like spent a lot of time choosing 10.

[00:09:47] Angela: Philosophy inspired names. Cuz my dad is like super into philosophy and he thought it would be like a good tribute or whatever. And then they presented 10 different names to my mom’s dad. And he was like, I don’t like these. So then, so then they were forced to go to a fortune teller to find alts, um, and then presented those to the grandpa again.

[00:10:12] Angela: And he was like, okay, these are good. so I chose one of those. Um, but for me, my mom just chose. ’em like, I guess she came up with a bunch of potential names. Um, but just kind of on her own of, I guess, quality she was looking for in her child. Um, and also, I don’t know if your parents told you this, but, um, The names aren’t chosen until after you’re born already, because it does factor

[00:10:38] Jesse: in, you need the, you need the, you need the, the date and the time

[00:10:41] Angela: of the child before.

[00:10:42] Angela: Yeah. So like, I, I think that’s pretty different from the us because, you know, yeah. You usually come up with like a million names ahead of time and then they’re born and you’re like, you look like a Rebecca, like you Rebecca now. Yeah. Yeah. but it’s always from where you’re like, it’s from your shortlist usually.

[00:10:59] Angela: Um, yeah. Whereas you’re just like nameless until until you’re born. If you’re Chinese, I guess. Um, so my mom and dad said that when is just like, I don’t know, it encomp, it encompasses all the, like. Quote, unquote, good qualities attached to females. So things like warmth and elegance and blah, blah, blah. And then Z is like beautiful and like outwardly whatever.

[00:11:31] Angela: I was like,

[00:11:33] Jesse: I’m not. So they gave you like a girly girl name, basically

[00:11:35] Angela: super girly girl name, super like posh girl name.

[00:11:40] Jesse: Lady Angela.

[00:11:42] Angela: I know. I’m like, I’m not sure you chose wisely. You . Well, that’s what my name means.

[00:11:49] Jesse: yeah. I don’t think that really worked for you. You were like a tomboy for a

[00:11:52] Angela: while. I mean, I still am.

[00:11:55] Angela: I still am.

[00:11:55] Jesse: Okay. Yeah, but it was like more, I feel like in the nineties being a tomboy was more like, I’m here, I’m a tomboy versus now everyone’s kind of like, okay. Like gender, whatever. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. It’s. It’s less of a, a big deal. But, um, that’s really interesting because what my parents told me, so first of all, they probably don’t really know what my name means because they didn’t pick it themselves, but they did tell me they were like, you can tell when someone has a name that hasn’t been selected by a fortune teller, cuz it sounds weird.

[00:12:24] Jesse: And I was like, what does that mean? Like they, they couldn’t like explain it, but they were like, it just doesn’t sound like a, a. Uh, nor I’ll regulate kind of like what you were saying when your dad brought like the names to your grandpa over grandpa. Um, and he was like, no, I don’t like these. I feel like there’s this somehow, you know, like there are so many of those things, whereas your parents are just like, oh no, that’s not it.

[00:12:46] Jesse: And you’re like, but why? Yeah. They, they can’t explain it. They’re just like, oh, it’s not it. And I, and, and, and, and you just don’t understand why. And, and they told me that they were like, you can tell when people’s names, aren’t selected by a fortune teller. And they’re like, they were like your grandmother, like my dad’s mom.

[00:13:03] Jesse: Her name wasn’t selected by a fortune teller. It’s only two characters and it sounds weird. And I, and they didn’t really give me a good explanation about why it sounds weird, but then I was like poking on them. I was like, okay. So if you didn’t get a fortune teller to give you a name, how did you pick the name?

[00:13:20] Jesse: and it’s the same way that your parents do? They’re like, oh, they just like picked whatever name. And they picked things that like were like either happenstance or like reminded them of something when the child was born. So it would be like if the child was born under a big moon, it would be like big moon.

[00:13:37] Jesse: Or like if they were born in the spring and there was like lavender, it would be like lavender. So it it’s like, it was very much. Like Vivian kind of situation. Yeah. And they actually told me that, um, the fortune telling thing has gone more popular recently. It’s like, not, it wasn’t really a thing back in the day, which I guess makes sense as I’m like.

[00:13:57] Jesse: I mean, like, I think our parents are like a little bit different in terms of like economic class where they’re coming from from Taiwan. But like, I feel like my, I don’t know, I don’t know. I’ve never seen your, your Taiwan home. Um, but they. Basically, they were like, nobody had money to, to pay for that oh, so they were like, yeah.

[00:14:17] Jesse: In, in the old days, like you would just name your child’s whatever. Um, and one of the things they brought up was, um, a lot of times, because you can’t be named until you’re born. Right. Mm-hmm because you have to the numerology or whatever, but a lot of the times they didn’t name them in the olden days because they didn’t know if the baby would survive.

[00:14:34] Jesse: So you would just have like, baby. As the name for a while until, until, until you were sure. Like, okay, this baby is like gonna not die. And then you would give them

[00:14:43] Angela: a name. Do yeah. Yeah. Related. I know I’ve mentioned that like parents, parents are human card game that I played with my family, um, a couple times, but, um, I don’t know which, which.

[00:14:57] Angela: Question brought about this, but I learned shit about my parents, that I was like, what? Um, but my mom said that she had a younger sibling die when they were an infant and they just, I remember you told me that froze to death.

[00:15:09] Jesse: I was like, what? I mean, I, we, like, I feel like we really forget, like our parents came from like, not even the ghetto, it’s not the ghetto.

[00:15:17] Jesse: It’s like the, the third world. the third world. There’s no,

[00:15:21] Angela: they’ve advanced a better way. Not Taiwan’s Aren, a third world country guys

[00:15:24] Jesse: just say not anymore night more, but it was rough for a while I think. Um, yeah. But yeah, I, and I asked them like a lot of questions about it, cause I was like, okay, so. Like what happens when you have a child and you don’t name them and they pass, like, how do you honor the child?

[00:15:39] Jesse: Cause they have no name. Mm-hmm or like, what if you have a miscarriage, like baby’s not born, you can’t give them a name then they’re just kinda like, it just kind of is what it is. Like they just don’t have a name rough. And I was like, okay. They’re like it, they only, you only get a name if you’ve like lived for duration of time.

[00:15:56] Jesse: Otherwise they, they don’t usually, they don’t typically like name the baby. After it’s passed.

[00:16:02] Angela: I mean, I guess it’s easier to not get so attached, I guess. Mm-hmm yeah. If there’s no name, that’s sad. That’s just sad.

[00:16:10] Jesse: But I, I think it is, I mean, it shows how powerful and significant like naming yeah. Is. Um, because it’s tied to so many of these things like of a person living and being like a viable individual and also like your attachment to them.

[00:16:25] Jesse: Because I, because, you know, if you don’t have a name to what you’re saying, it’s E I think it’s easier. Like. Not so much easier, but maybe a little bit easier for you not to be attached because it’s just kind of like, oh, this nameless individualist child. Yeah, yeah,

[00:16:41] Angela: yeah. Actually, uh, related, but sidetrack, um, Chrissy, Tegan, I follow her and John legend.

[00:16:48] Angela: Um, but a couple months back she had a miscarriage, like really close to. Um, like she was almost a term and then they lost the baby or maybe it was a stillborn or something like that. Um, and she wrote a really vulnerable post about how they, like, she cuz they already have two kids. Um, and she was like, oh we didn’t name like these kids until they were born.

[00:17:09] Angela: Like, I’m sure they had the shortlist, like, you know, most American people do, but she was like, oh it was with. Third child. They kind of like broke that rule and did name him before he was born. And she mentioned that it was like so much harder because they had already grown this like strong attachment to him because they had named him.

[00:17:30] Angela: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. It’s sad.

[00:17:33] Jesse: Yeah. I mean, it’s a powerful thing and it’s probably why, you know, parents will go to fortune tellers to, um, to get that done so that you have like the most auspicious. Name and like luckiness. Well, not me

[00:17:46] Angela: bro. I’m

[00:17:49] Jesse: American. It’s it’s fine. Honestly, like, yeah, it’s, it’s a little bit weird because I don’t exactly know how they’re doing.

[00:17:57] Jesse: They told me there’s like this giant book where like they look at the book and the dates and the times, and then they like pull out the name options, but it sounds like a little bit weird. I’m like, how can you have a book that has like every date ever.

[00:18:12] Angela: Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways.

[00:18:22] Angela: First is by subscribing to us, rating us and reviewing us on apple podcasts and iTunes. Second is by telling a friend third is follow us on Instagram at where are you from? Fourth is supporting us on Mia coffee. You can find out more about all of these by visiting our Instagram’s Lincoln bio. And again, our handle is at where are you from?

[00:18:46] Angela: Pod. Thank you. Well, how about less complex names? We also obviously have English names. Do you know how your parents named you Jessica?

[00:18:58] Jesse: Oh, yeah, it’s so funny because I was asking them this and my mom told me the exact same story that I told everyone. And my, my dad told me like a completely different story.

[00:19:05] Jesse: And my mom was like, no, that’s not correct. what it’s. So, first of all, like, Let me I’ll backtrack a little bit. I asked him like, who picked my Chinese name? And like how, um, traditionally, like, who gets the say mm-hmm and my mom was like, I picked it mm-hmm and I was like, oh, I asked my dad, I was like, didn’t you pick it?

[00:19:27] Jesse: Like, I’m like your only progeny. He’s like, no, your mom picked it. And I was like, okay, work, work. Um, so I guess there’s no like really rigid structure there. I don’t know, country people. Um, and then with my English name, it was John Stamos character on full house uncle Jesse. Yeah, because when my mom immigrated here to the states, it was one of the shows that she would watch all the time.

[00:19:53] Jesse: And it’s like, it’s a family show with lots of laugh tracks and kids. So it’s like, even if you don’t understand English, you can still kind of like relate to it. Mm-hmm so that’s how she said, she said. She got the idea from that character. I think she said she looked in like an English name book to see like, what that name meant.

[00:20:13] Jesse: And then she was like, oh, like, it looks fine. And it’s not very typical. And she was like, she was like, yeah, I didn’t wanna name you like a John or like an Alex or like, uh, David, like everyone already has those names. And I was like, okay, like, I guess you did do your research when you were naming me. so

[00:20:29] Angela: the, the dad or mom naming you thing.

[00:20:32] Angela: interesting that they didn’t care. Cuz my mom, she didn’t make a big deal about it. But when I ask her about like, who named me, who, who named my brother or whatever, my dad named my brother, I mean, he was the one who came up with like the first batch of rejected names. And I’m guessing he chose from the fortune to names.

[00:20:51] Angela: Um, But when she said that she came up with my name and all the options, she was like, blah, blah, blah. I came up with your name, which is kind of weird, cuz that should have been your dad’s job and like kept going. And I was like, okay. So I think there might, I think the default might be that the dad usually chooses the name, but just like didn’t necessarily.

[00:21:14] Angela: Go that way for either of us.

[00:21:16] Jesse: I mean, let’s be real. Our moms wear the pants in the real , she’s just,

[00:21:22] Angela: they are strong, strong characters. They are

[00:21:24] Jesse: strong female figures, although they fit within the very traditional female. Yeah. The. Stereotype. Uh, but they know they, they make a lot of the decisions in our family, so,

[00:21:35] Angela: yes.

[00:21:36] Angela: Yeah. Um, my name is super similar to yours. It also was just from a sitcom, but okay. So when I was wait, wait, which sitcom. Okay. I don’t know because when I was growing up, I asked my mom. A long time ago. I asked my mom where’d you come with Angela? And she was like, it’s from three’s company. And then I just like brush it off.

[00:21:54] Angela: And then I think like a little later I looked up the cast of three’s company. I was like, there is no Angela,

[00:22:00] Jesse: no show what? There’s no character or nobody. There’s no

[00:22:04] Angela: caster named Angela. And then, um, Like when I asked her in prep for this episode, I was like, you told me it was three’s company, but there was no Angela character in that show.

[00:22:15] Angela: She was like, what’s three’s company. She was like, whatever she was like, I don’t remember what show it was, but it was some show I liked,

[00:22:23] Jesse: oh my God.

[00:22:24] Angela: Very similar to how they named my Chinese name. She was like, oh, I just thought she was pretty. So I gave you that name. Oh my gosh. That’s so funny. Like, okay.

[00:22:34] Jesse: I do.

[00:22:34] Jesse: I do like that, like kind of the duality of it, which is like, we have put so much significance into your like Chinese name and then English name is just like, oh, I just like this. that’s cool.

[00:22:47] Angela: Sounds good.

[00:22:48] Jesse: yeah, whatever. It’s good. It’s fine. I mean it, and it does, it does lend the whole Koreans to like Asian name is the real name.

[00:22:55] Jesse: Cause they don’t really care

[00:22:56] Angela: about that. Yeah. For them English name, right? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Okay. Well, so neither of us, we both have English and Chinese names, but neither of us have our Chinese names as our like middle names. Um, Did you ever think about that? Or did that affect you in any way growing

[00:23:14] Jesse: up?

[00:23:14] Jesse: I don’t think I really thought about it until I encountered somebody who did have like a phonetically translated Asian name as, as their, as their English name. And I think the reason for that is for me, I feel like there’s always this divide, like at home, that’s my name. And then in the class, Elementary school, whatever my name was always Jesse.

[00:23:39] Jesse: So there was never a mix really. Um, and so I never thought about that. It was weird until I felt until people started asking. Like, oh, is it like, is your real, because cuz then you start, as you get older, you start encountering people who do have, um, translated, uh, translated Chinese names as their English names.

[00:23:59] Jesse: And then people start asking cuz then they assume that your name is not. Whatever it is. And it’s in fact, you, because a lot of people have the translated names, but then they’ll like, oh my name’s Anna or something like that, it’s just not legal. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so then people start assuming that because you are, you look like them, you also have the same kind of name structure where my name’s Jesse, but legally it says, and I didn’t really, I don’t think, I don’t remember as a kid thinking that it was like weird or anything until people started like really pointing it out.

[00:24:28] Jesse: Mm. What about

[00:24:29] Angela: you? It was directly something I thought about because my brother has his name, his Chinese name as his middle name, but I don’t have my Chinese name as my middle name. And I didn’t ask my parents about this, but if I had to guess it was just like, You know, he came from Taiwan, like he was born in Taiwan and then they, yeah, they just were like, that’s your name?

[00:24:48] Angela: So it’s part of your English name too versus I was born here and then they didn’t do the fortune tell thing. So they probably were just like, keep the American name separate from the Chinese name. If, if I had to guess. Um, and I definitely paid attention to that growing up because I was always really happy that I didn’t have my Chinese name in there.

[00:25:09] Angela: Mm-hmm and I always kind of like made fun of my brother for having this Chinese name in there. And I mean, obviously what we talk about a lot on the show is like, we didn’t. Being Asian growing up, we didn’t wanna be different. And so for me, it was definitely like how much more alienated can you be than to have a name that people can’t pronounce as your like actual official name?

[00:25:36] Angela: so like, I was always really proud when people, people would always ask. Yeah, like, what’s your Chinese name? And then, or they’d be like, what’s your middle name? And I’d be like, I don’t have a middle name. And they’re like, really? It’s not your Chinese name. I’m like, nah, bitch, it’s blank. There’s no middle name.

[00:25:53] Angela: Um, and I’d be really like, Proud of that fact, because I felt like I was defending my Americanness or like my right to be one of everyone else, you know? Um, and the only place where my Chinese name existed was yeah. In the spaces of like Chinese school or like family, friends, whatever, and also on my Taiwanese passport.

[00:26:17] Angela: Um, but they always, it was separate. It was never, it was not like Angela. Once in Lin, you know, it was like they once alias, Angela Lin on, on the passport.

[00:26:27] Jesse: So you, so your brother’s name is Johnny. His actual name, like the two characters of his name? Yeah. And then his laws name. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. I, sometimes I think about that and I’m like, cuz you were born here right in the states.

[00:26:40] Jesse: Mm-hmm and I, I always think like people make mistakes because like you have the baby and then they’re like right out the marriage certificate and just push out a baby. So I’m like, I could see a situation where you just completely forgot the middle name cuz you’re like, uh .

[00:26:54] Angela: Well, actually that’s a really good point.

[00:26:56] Angela: They probably didn’t come up with my Chinese name. In time for that. Oh

[00:27:02] Jesse: yeah. Yeah, exactly. So they probably couldn’t even, but

[00:27:05] Angela: then my mom randomly watched a show that had the name Angela in it before I was born. I don’t know. Who

[00:27:09] Jesse: knows. well, like maybe they, they realized that they needed to register your English name, but they still couldn’t pump out like, well, but you yours wasn’t they didn’t, they didn’t go to a fortune to for, so they,

[00:27:21] Angela: no, I, I think I was still named after I was born cuz she oh, okay.

[00:27:25] Angela: Because she, she said like, oh, I chose, I chose. Which means beautiful because I thought you were a beautiful baby. So it was after I was born.

[00:27:36] Jesse: which you chosen something else? If you were an ugly baby?

[00:27:38] Angela: Yeah, probably wisdom. Like, I don’t know,

[00:27:42] Jesse: probably something. Oh, my gosh.

[00:27:45] Angela: No, they would’ve focused on some other non-duty related

[00:27:50] Jesse: word.

[00:27:51] Jesse: I’m sure. But I mean, I think you do, like, I feel like our, our stories dovetail, because, and, and also like I’m thinking about. When we had your brother on mm-hmm and he was talking about the school that he first went to the integrated school that he first went to. When he came here, it is very much people making us uncomfortable.

[00:28:09] Jesse: Mm-hmm about the names that you actually start to notice it because as a kid, like, like little kids don’t tease you for that, because like, it doesn’t matter to them, but I think as you get older, Um, people start to like separate out and they start to like group people mm-hmm and try to like define things.

[00:28:26] Jesse: And then that’s when you become very aware that like, oh, like my name is different. Mm-hmm not because it’s not English, but because people think of the English name as like a secondary name and they think of the, um, Chinese name as, as the primary. Name, and that’s when it starts to like actually formulate in your head that it’s like a little bit weird and you really start to see it because I don’t really remember having that experience at all until people started saying stuff about it.

[00:28:54] Angela: Yeah. Actually. And now that I’m thinking back on it, I think before, like you said, kids don’t know to like, make fun of. Kids for certain reasons until a certain age. Um, yeah. And I think until that point, I did think it was like cool to have two names. Like I think I remember thinking it was kind of special that we had two names, whereas everyone else had like one name.

[00:29:16] Angela: Um, it was almost like as. Secret that no one else had, um, besides us until then it was, yeah, exactly what you said. It was like, no, but Angela’s not your real name. What’s your real name because you’re Asian. So you must have like a different name and it’s like, fuck

[00:29:32] Jesse: you. . Yeah. Yeah. But it’s good. I feel like it’s good to, um, you like talking about it to reclaim it.

[00:29:39] Jesse: Like it is my.

[00:29:41] Angela: Yeah. Mm-hmm yeah. Mm-hmm even if I forget how to write it, sometimes wait, are you serious? We’ve talked about this. My name is way more complex

[00:29:49] Jesse: than yours. Oh, I actually forgetting what your name looks like. Yeah, mine is. Oh, and that, that that’s that’s a good point. My mom also said she picked it cuz it was easy to write.

[00:30:00] Jesse: She’s like easy to write. I wanted it to be easy for you. I know she knew, she knew I was gonna become a, um, what what’s the a non-Asian Asian me.

[00:30:11] Angela: Yeah, no mine. Mine’s pretty complex. There are a lot of strokes in my. my name? Um, no, but the, the joke is that, like, we went to Chinese school every year till we were graduated high school.

[00:30:23] Angela: Um, but we always had summers off. So like in the summers we didn’t do shit with Chinese. Right. Like besides like talking to our parents or whatever in Chinese mm-hmm but like writing and reading. Nah. So then the, I, I remember there was one year I like came back from summer vacation and the first day of Chinese school, you know, you’d write your name on like every assignment and.

[00:30:43] Angela: Fuck.

[00:30:44] Jesse: You’re

[00:30:44] Angela: like, whoa, I think I got it right. But I was like hesitating.

[00:30:49] Jesse: Oh my gosh. Damn. Oh my gosh. Rough. I mean, my mom picked correct, because it is very easy for

[00:30:55] Angela: me to write my name. Yeah. Try to write my name, bitch. You can’t it’s too hard. I

[00:31:00] Jesse: can write your family name. Well,

[00:31:02] Angela: that’s get let’s for that.

[00:31:04] Angela: Let’s get into that family name. So we have stated this several times, but although our last names are both Lin, we are not related with that said all Chinese people are related, you know, at some point, if you go far back enough, but, um, we wanted to talk about where the lens came from. And then I specifically asked my dad like, cuz you remember when we had Catherine and mark on and they talked about how.

[00:31:35] Angela: You ask, like, when, you know, someone’s Korean last name, you ask which clan they’re from. And it’s like a whole thing to kinda like trace that back to, I guess, to make sure you’re not blood related. If you have like the same. Last name. Um, but I asked my dad if he knew, like, which clan we were from and he, he like gave me some, some facts, but he was like, yes, yes, you can trace that back.

[00:32:01] Angela: But I don’t know, like all the details off the top of my head, he gave me some things, but, um, Hmm. Did you ask your parents about where our family name came from?

[00:32:09] Jesse: Um, my dad said he doesn’t like, know where in China they came from, but he said that if you wanted to find out, you could basically mm-hmm . So he said that when, when the family moved over, they brought with them like a family tree.

[00:32:26] Jesse: Yes. Or something like that. And it’s like enshrined in like a Lin family temple. Yes. And if you want and you could go to the temple. And look at the family tree. Yay. And I was like, I was like, where is this family tree? I wanna go see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m like, you’ve never shown it to me. Am I on it?

[00:32:44] Jesse: Like, yeah. Yeah. So that’s what he told me. He doesn’t like know exactly, but he was like, we, we could go back cuz I was asking him like, do you know if we have family members. Back in China, because like at some point we, the family immigrated to Taiwan. Mm-hmm even if it was like a couple hundred years ago, it’s reasonable to assume that there might still be folks back in China.

[00:33:04] Jesse: And he was like, well, you would have to look at the family tree and see like, you know, who’s on it. And I’m like, okay, well, I’ve never seen this mythical family tree or, and I don’t know where the Lin family, I didn’t even know we had a family temple. I was like, where is

[00:33:19] Angela: it? Yeah. Yeah. My dad said the exact same thing.

[00:33:23] Angela: Um, it’s interesting because he, I think my dad mentioned two temples because his. His family temple that is in Taiwan. He mentioned that a while ago to me, which like I was like, okay, so I knew that existed, but then he mentioned there was a different temple that has this family tree back in China. And he said that our family is from, uh, the hun and province.

[00:33:51] Angela: And okay. Uh, specifically, I guess the hometown is GU Guang Jo area. Oh, okay. Um, so that’s where we’re from, I guess it’s thousands of years ago. Um, but did, did your parents tell you, he told me the like myth of where, like the lens, like the OG Lin came from. Did your parents tell you that?

[00:34:16] Jesse: No, I did look it up on the, I have the Wikipedia open though with the, oh, yours is probably more

[00:34:20] Angela: accurate than my dad was like going off his memory.

[00:34:24] Angela: Wanna tell it?

[00:34:24] Jesse: Oh, I don’t. It’s a long story. Oh, it’s a really long story. It’s just like, it’s, uh, you know, if you guys are familiar with like the war in kingdoms era and like all that stuff in China, it’s like, it’s almost like K drama level, like K drama level pettiness, but like IL people fighting to control China.

[00:34:46] Jesse: I mean, you could probably tell your story’s probably better. This one’s very. Very very long, but, um, it does say that the distribution of the surname, Lin second, most common surname in Fuen fourth, most common in the city of ha HaCo, HaCo. I don’t know. That’s how it’s written English and 10th, most common in the city of GUSO.

[00:35:07] Jesse: Okay.

[00:35:08] Angela: Okay. My dad told me the myth, the legend. Um, so it is from like a million years ago. It’s uh, from, he guessed, it was like between 1500 and 2000 BCE was the first ancestor whose name was beacon? Apparently. Um, but it’s a, it’s a whole long story, but basically he was like the uncle of the emperor.

[00:35:32] Angela: There’s some like, BS about like, prove your loyalty to me. He got killed. So then his family was like gonna get taken by the soldiers and then his wife who was pregnant, ran away from them and ran to hide in the woods and then gave birth to their child in the woods. And Lin is written as two tree characters side by side, essentially.

[00:35:58] Angela: So that is where Lin came from is the fact that this child of the first ancestor was born in the forest. So. I really gave you the like cliff notes. He gave me a really long story, but that, yeah, this is

[00:36:12] Jesse: a, this is, this is a, I bet good cliff notes version of the origins story on Wikipedia. Yeah.

[00:36:18] Angela: Um, so yeah, that’s where it came from.

[00:36:21] Angela: Um, so it’s funny because I thought Lin was like, Super fucking common because of, I mean, I seem that way. It seems that way because where we grew up. So we grew up in Irvine, which in the nineties, in orange county, California, um, was like, if you was a Chinese person, you know, Chinese speaking person, they were from Taiwan.

[00:36:40] Angela: Like everyone was from Taiwan. I, I think I knew like one mainland Chinese family, most people were Taiwanese, um, who immigrated. And so my dad told me, so yeah, he guessed 17th in China, but you said it’s 18th. Um, top three names. I looked this up, um, top three last names in China are Wong because it means emperor.

[00:37:00] Angela: So everyone wants to be fucking royalty. So that’s number one, Lee. And then John are the top three. and Lin’s like super far down, but he said in Taiwan, there is a saying, he said, it’s Chan Ling mania, AKA everyone last name’s arch and Ling everyone. And their mom has those two last names. So I guess Taiwan it’s like the number two, one or two, you know, um, Top last name.

[00:37:31] Angela: So it makes sense that for us only knowing Taiwanese people growing up, um, we had Lin kind of everywhere

[00:37:40] Jesse: and you know what, it probably also like dovetails with just the fact of like, who like patterns of migration, cuz it’s like, um, I’m fairly certain that the family is probably from like Fu gen province.

[00:37:50] Jesse: Mm-hmm . And so like, I would assume that probably. And it’s close to Taiwan, geographically. Yeah. From China. So I would assume that only, only certain people were able to immigrate because like, how are you gonna immigrate? Like from the Northwest of China to Taiwan, that’s like so far, like it, you know, a couple hundred years ago, it’s like really far yeah.

[00:38:09] Jesse: For a family to travel. So, or I’m not surprised that it’s only like a few family names.

[00:38:14] Angela: Look, I don’t know, man. There are Koreans in Argentina just saying .

[00:38:18] Jesse: Well, that’s a different thing. they were specifically specifically brought there. Oh,

[00:38:24] Angela: were they? I don’t know that history.

[00:38:25] Jesse: I, I think so. Yeah. I, there were, um, the reason why there are some Asians in like Latin American countries, if I remember properly is cuz they had some kind of like.

[00:38:34] Jesse: Job exchange situation. Cause a lot of the, a lot of those countries in, in south America were I think either were, or are still oil countries. So they needed like highly skilled labor or something like that interest. That’s how they ended up there. Something

like

[00:38:49] Angela: that. Or, you know, I didn’t know any

[00:38:50] Jesse: of that.

[00:38:51] Jesse: It could be wrong. There’s some there’s, it’s definitely some kind of labor exchange what industry and what for like it’s. Yeah. I’m not sure if it’s very similar to how they brought Chinese people over for railroad stuff though. yeah. All right. So I think that we can move on over to the fortune cookie because we always like to end on a sweet treat.

[00:39:12] Jesse: And we’re gonna ask Angela to tell us what her future naming plans naming framework looks like and how she will be considering names for her future legacies. Legacy legacy.

[00:39:30] Angela: Yes. Well, it’s not that complex since I haven’t thought that much about it, but okay. We, we talked about it in the kids episode, though for the English name.

[00:39:39] Angela: I think it definitely needs to be something that can be pronounced in English in Spanish, so that it’s easy for you knows. Side. Um, so not Jesse yesy yes.

[00:39:52] Jesse: I’ve heard also Kessie yeah. Kessie Nope,

[00:39:56] Angela: no, thanks. No something that’s like, you know, could be both, um, like my name. Okay. Um, and then the Chinese name let’s be real you and I don’t know shit about you.

[00:40:08] Angela: Chinese and meanings. So I’m, I’m gonna, um, off offshore that to either my parents or, you know, a fortune teller, like whatever they want to. Yeah. Um, as long as like, they think it’s a good name, I think that’s sufficient to me.

[00:40:27] Jesse: I think honestly, a fortune teller makes a lot of sense, uh, because we don’t really know yeah.

[00:40:32] Jesse: Much about Chinese names. And the other thing is that there’s always this kind of. as an ABC, you’re always like kind of, I illegitimate in a way for the people who are like living there, but if you have a legitimate name, you seem less distinct. People will not notice as much. And I think that’s part of the reason why, why, uh, fortuneteller also makes sense.

[00:40:53] Jesse: Hey,

[00:40:53] Angela: and actually if, if the policy is still in place, because the reason I have dual citizenship is that even though I was born in America at the time, My mom said, if you registered your baby in Taiwan under one year of it being born, then it could get dual citizenship. So since the names aren’t chosen until after you’re born, since you need the date and hour and all that stuff, I guess we could theoretically name, you know, the Chinese name after it’s born in Taiwan with a fortune teller and then register that so that they have that citizenship.

[00:41:31] Angela: Hmm, write us in, tell us what you think, because I mean, not everyone who listens to the show is Asian, but a lot of you are Asian American or Asian something. Um, I’m sure what we talked about today is not distinct to just Chinese speaking people, because most Asian, you know, immigrant families name their kids, both.

[00:41:51] Angela: Names the original language and English. So write us in about your experience with having two names, whether that was a positive, negative, neutral experience for you growing up, how it kind of affected you. Um, or if you even know what your name means since we. Definitely didn’t write us in at tell us where you’re from@gmail.com and come back next week, because we’ll have another episode for you then.

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Building a Family in the Current World


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Angela: Hey everyone. I’m Angela Lin

[00:00:02] Jesse: And I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really? From this week? We’re bringing back a fun. Subject that has appeared in a few of our episodes previously, which is having kids. Oh, baby, baby.

[00:00:19] Jesse: So as you guys may have heard through our various episodes, Angela and I have very different perspectives on having children and bearing this fruit of legacy. What a way to

[00:00:33] Angela: describe it. .

[00:00:35] Jesse: So I think we wanted to actually devote some time to discussing it and really dig into or rehash what our individual perspectives are on it.

[00:00:45] Jesse: And kind of just what our overall thoughts are about having children and the potential difficulties, challenges, and rewards that might come from, from having the kids, the offspring. So. Do you want to kick it off with your recap of your perspective on, on, you know, if you want to have kids, why all that?

[00:01:08] Angela: Yeah. General POV, I think has changed a lot since I’ve grown up. Let’s say like somewhere between five to 10 years ago, I was like, I don’t like kids . Like generally don’t enjoy children. Um, I think it slightly changed after I moved to New York because I have, I think I’ve talked about my cousins that are like super religious, so they have like a million kids mm-hmm okay.

[00:01:37] Angela: I think they actually have like nine, so I, obviously 1 million is exaggerating, but yes, I think they have nine, eight or nine. And when I was, yeah, yeah. When I moved to New York was for college and they’re like the sweetest people cuz you know, they’re super Christian. So, you know, Jesus. Loving, blah, blah, anyways, but um, when I moved there, they only had two kids.

[00:02:00] Angela: So I saw it like really explode over the over the time that I lived in New York. I think when I left, they had five and then they had like more. Yeah. And that was the first time I really had to be around. Children, like there was, there was a panic moment for me. It was, um, one time. I, I was like hanging out with them and, um, the wife, so my cousin’s the guy.

[00:02:24] Angela: And then the girl is his wife, obviously that I’m not like blood related to, but I I’m like closer relationship wise to her. Mm-hmm . Um, but anyway, she and I were. Running an errand and they have this like minivan, obviously, right. To shuttle around all the kids. And she was like, I have to go run inside target to like, grab something.

[00:02:41] Angela: Can you just like, watch all the kids right now? And I was in the parking garage with, I swear to God, like, yeah, it was like five kids. And it was like mayhem because there were a couple that were like strapped to the, um, you know, the car seat, no car seats. I had to like, hold one, which I’m like the most.

[00:03:02] Angela: Awkward with holding babies because I’m like, am I holding this thing? Right. Um, and there were like one or two that were like big enough to be in the seats by themselves, just like jumping around and like causing mayhem. And I was like, am I gonna survive the like 10 minutes that she has left me here, but I will say, okay, so it was mayhem, but that being around them all the time was the first interaction where I was like, you know, I still feel a little bit of this, like mirror towards kids.

[00:03:29] Angela: I can see why they’re fun. Like some, some of the time right now I was like, oh, they’re so like, they say like random shit. And they just have like the funniest imaginations and whatever. So I think like over time it’s like changed, but I would say when I was like early twenties, I was like, oh, I hate kids.

[00:03:43] Angela: Like I have no affinity towards children. And then like, as I spent a little bit more time with them and then like also got older. Just like, uh, okay. They’re not, they’re not so bad. Um, and then in terms of like having kids, I think when I was mid or later twenties, I still didn’t have like baby fever per se.

[00:04:05] Angela: Cuz we can talk about this later, but Karen or other best friend, like definitely had us. Specific baby fever stage, which, oh my gosh, we can discuss. Um, but I was like, I don’t, um, I don’t identify with this feeling I like, I have like, um, Dog fever, baby dog fever. Because every, every puppy I see, I need it immediately, but not like baby human baby fever.

[00:04:31] Angela: Um, but at that time I had thought like, well, I think I should have a kid. Um, and I have like many. External, I think a lot of like external factors that played into that, of course, part of its family, part of it’s just like being a woman of like, you know, clock, biological clock, ticking, that kind of shit legacy with like being Asian or Chinese, you know, there’s like a lot of stuff going on there, but I was like, eh, I’m gonna have a kid at some point, but like, I’m not like clon for it kind of thing.

[00:05:01] Angela: Mm-hmm um, and then now I think being. Obviously married and whatever. Like there’s, there’s even more factors to plan there. So yeah, we wanna have kids, but it’s, I would say my POV has like continually evolved over the last 10 years over the subject.

[00:05:17] Jesse: Well, yeah. I mean, of course you, you would, it’s not like, you know, it’s not like you’re deciding on lunch, you’re deciding on like a huge investment of your lifetime money and like energy.

[00:05:30] Jesse: So yeah, I would imagine that your perspective would change because. You’re different at different stages of your life.

[00:05:36] Angela: True. Yeah. How about you? How has yours evolved?

[00:05:40] Jesse: I would say D different, obviously. I think I had no opinion on children in my early twenties because it just wasn’t in my, it wasn’t even in my periphery.

[00:05:49] Jesse: Right. Cuz as a gay man. Like to have children, I think would be very difficult just logistically, because you could only like adopt a child or get a Sur. And both of those are very like expensive lengthy processes that are like, not necessarily guaranteed that you will have a child at the end of the day.

[00:06:06] Jesse: So like early to mid twenties, it was not even am I periphery? Cuz that was just like, that’s just like an impossibility. And then as I got older and you know, started to make more disposable income, like I like children. But I don’t have a particular like bearing towards children. Like I don’t have baby fever.

[00:06:27] Jesse: I don’t see a child and be like, oh, I want that to be mm-hmm my life or my future. And I was just talking to my partner about this yesterday. And I was like, I feel like if I was in a different situation with my life, I would consider it because I think. Children as a different kind of challenge and like a way to introduce new newness kind of, as you’re saying into your life, because they are, so it’s a very different stage of your life versus like what you normally have, which is just like, you have career, you have friends, you might travel and, and all that kind of repeats and it’s, it’s new, but it’s the same, right?

[00:07:05] Jesse: Like you have new of the same things. And so I could see a situation potentially where I’m like, okay, you know what. I’m really kind of done with doing these things and I’m ready for like a new chapter or new challenge in my life. But of course, like there’s still the logistical parts of it. So I just don’t think it’s really feasible or, you know, in the cars for me at, at the moment.

[00:07:28] Jesse: But like you said, things keep changing and like will change as we get older. So like my perspective will change, but I recently was where was I? Oh yeah. I went ice skating. And I was in line to pick up the tickets and there was like a toddler crying and I was like, bitch, those are some fake ass crocodile tears, because he was going like,

[00:07:54] Jesse: I’m like, shut that baby up. I don’t wanna see that. Like, and so I was like, I don’t think, I just don’t think I have like the temperament to be a parent. Like I would need to have like someone who’s like, like a co-parent that’s. Okay, Jesse, like you need to like this, this is a child. You cannot treat the child.

[00:08:12] Jesse: Exactly. Like an adult, like to temper. So I don’t, I don’t. Yeah. I’m, I’m not at the, at that place yet.

[00:08:19] Angela: You’re funny though, because you have, um, like you, obviously you have that side of you, but then like when we had Catherine and mark on and they had to have Valerie, their baby love Valerie, kinda on, so cute.

[00:08:31] Angela: Yeah. You were obsessed

[00:08:33] Jesse: with her because she has such a big personality. you know, like most babies are. I don’t know. I feel like most babies are pretty boring, but she has such a big personality. I’m like, yes, work. We’re gonna be best friends. So yeah. That’s why I was like, yo, I’m into this baby. Oh, that’s funny.

[00:08:49] Angela: Well, you, you could have that kind

[00:08:51] Jesse: of baby who knows? That’s true, but it’s, it’s hard. It’s not like you can, you know, when I picked up. My cat from the a S P C a, I filled out a survey that was like, I like to live like this. My environment is like this. I don’t think you get to do that with a baby. Nope.

[00:09:07] Angela: Nope. You get what you get. Exactly.

[00:09:13] Angela: Hey, everyone. We love doing this podcast. And if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways. First is by subscribing to us, rating us and reviewing us on apple podcasts and iTunes. Second is by telling a friend third is following us on Instagram at where are you from pod.

[00:09:36] Angela: Fourth is supporting us on buym a coffee. You can find out more about all of these by visiting our Instagram’s Lincoln bio. And again, our handle is at where are you from pod? Thank you.

[00:09:51] Jesse: But, um, it is a pressing thing because our friend groups are like rapidly, you know, either it’s diverging, either everyone’s producing babies or people are.

[00:10:02] Jesse: In my camp where it’s like, no babies, no babies at all.

[00:10:05] Angela: Yeah. We, we definitely have quite different friend groups. I’d say in the last like three, four years, my friend groups have started to like pop them out. Um, Catherine and mark were the first ones. Of like direct friends that had a baby, but Karen, like I mentioned, our other best friend has now a six or seven month old baby.

[00:10:29] Angela: It’s like, baby’s first Christmas right now, literally they’re back home. Um, and then I have two, at least two other like direct friends that are pregnant right now and giving birth next year, early next year.

[00:10:43] Jesse: It’s it’s happening. Everyone’s like, oh, it’s it’s that time. Yeah. No, my friend group, it’s funny because I have two distinct friend groups.

[00:10:50] Jesse: I have a friend group where it’s mostly straight couples and maybe like a few singles. And then I have like the gay friend group. So like the gay friend group. No, nobody is maybe nothing like there’s no, there’s not even a remote discussion of maybe anything. And, um, to set the picture like these are folks between like, Maybe like 25 to 35 ish, let’s say like, that’s the range.

[00:11:16] Jesse: And then it’s very, like the age range is very similar in my straight friend group. Um, but even they aren’t really having any conversations about having children. And I don’t really know what it is. It might just be like an urban versus suburban kind of thing. Cuz I also think it’s really hard to picture having like a family in the city because there are so many.

[00:11:38] Jesse: Stressors to navigate that maybe you wouldn’t experience in a, in a suburb. And it is very expensive to raise a child like in New York city. And I also think that, I don’t know, I don’t know what the like thinking is for, um, a lot of your friends, but I feel like when I talk to a lot of my friends, like, they’re definitely more thinking about.

[00:12:01] Jesse: Far off future considerations for the child. Like they’re thinking about whether or not they want to put a child in the world, given where the world is moving. And they’re kind of like, I don’t know if it’s like, it’s a, it’s a money thing, but they’re also kind of like, I don’t know if this is the right thing to do.

[00:12:15] Jesse: Like, we don’t know if they’re gonna have a good future and it doesn’t make sense for us to have a baby right now. So it’s like all of those kind of consider.

[00:12:23] Angela: interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think the urban versus suburban has some validity, but I think New York is its own bubble. It’s on its own because there’s also even like stepping back.

[00:12:36] Angela: I mean, we talked about it in like the dating and relationships episode, but dating in New York sucks. Um, yeah, especially as a. A straight woman looking for a straight man because straight men are so Peter pan syndrome in New York where they’re like, oh, I could be like, I can just age up. And I will still always have like young, hot things after me.

[00:12:58] Angela: So there’s very little incentive to. Settle. And therefore, if you’re not settled, you wouldn’t start a family necessarily. Yeah. So I see that as like a big New York specific kind of like issue, um, because it’s not like every city is like that because oh yeah. Some of these friends are in cities, um, but it’s not New York.

[00:13:19] Angela: And then. I do think, I mean, age range, anyone from like my specific age upwards is kind of like who’s giving birth right now. Yeah. And I think there’s so many different reasons. Like, look, I love Catherine mark, and I’m not trying to reduce them down to just this, but if you’re very religious, that’s obviously like, A big motivator for having as many children as possible, as early as possible.

[00:13:46] Angela: And they’re, they’re quite Christian. So I think that played a lot into them, um, trying to have kids earlier. Um, and then Karen specifically is the only person I know who had like. Actual labeled baby fever. uh, that was driving that. And then I think the others honestly kind of waited a little longer than like I personally would have, or, or that’s not fair.

[00:14:10] Angela: We, we don’t know what happens behind the curtain. Right? Like what’s, what’s happening with that process. But, um, I think some of them waited a little longer and then that also has like its own complications. Once you wait a little bit longer from like, Biological standpoint, which we can talk about. But I think some of it was kind of like it’s time, I guess like,

[00:14:31] Jesse: okay.

[00:14:31] Jesse: I mean, I think this is a good segue into kind of like why or in like why not to have the kids . Yeah. Do you want to, do you want to share maybe your like top three?

[00:14:44] Angela: I mean, it’s a long list, man. I don’t know if I only have three. Well, I think your

[00:14:51] Jesse: elevator pitch for kids go, you have 30 seconds.

[00:14:54] Angela: This is not, oh, this is not a good pitch.

[00:14:57] Angela: No, because so many of them are pressures from outside people like before I had any relationships, right. Like no romantic relation when I was like single. And I was thinking about like, should I have kids in the future? Mm-hmm a big part of it is just a sense of like duty. Um, sure. To the family. So like, I we’ve talked about this before, but my brother’s gay, so I’m the only, um, child left in the family.

[00:15:24] Angela: And it’s, it’s kind of tricky because technically in like Chinese culture passing down, the last name through bloodline is really important. And technically that only happens through the, the sun because they. When they marry, they don’t change their last name. Yeah. Versus I changed my last name. So like, technically I’m already kinda like fucking that up, you know, there’s like, even if I pass down blood, it’s like, not exactly as pure as like Chinese legacy will have wanted because it’s not through my brother’s

[00:15:54] Jesse: side.

[00:15:54] Jesse: Yeah. But I think, you know, given, given that the firstborn male is not a VI viable yes. Option, it’s like, kind of like better than that than nothing. Yes. Yeah.

[00:16:05] Angela: So basically as soon as he came out, Which was a long time ago. like over a decade ago, you know, like maybe two days ago. Um, yeah, that pressure was on for me.

[00:16:16] Angela: It’s like, you need to, you need to have kids because you’re only hope for passing down the Lynn family bloodline. So that was high pressure, um, in and of itself. The next is, I mean, I, I think I always knew I wanted to have at least one kid. I just mm-hmm for me. You know, my perspective changed over time, especially after we’ve done like psychedelics and whatnot, right?

[00:16:38] Angela: Like where you like truly learn what love. Feels like, and like that connection you can have with everything. I think those experiences have helped me understand that. Like, I have a lot of love that I can give and children as like a natural place to put that love and like in a really productive manner, right?

[00:16:59] Angela: Like a productive. Beneficial place to put the love is, is towards kids because it, you know, it, hopefully you’re making a good human who will help other people in the future, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, mm-hmm um, but back then, I think it was more like I will regret not having kids. I, I think it was a lot of, that was one of the things that was just like, well, if I have a kid, like, could be awesome if I don’t have a kid and then I get too old to have.

[00:17:27] Angela: Will I like be super sad and regretful later on. So like that was a, that was a huge pressure as well. And then getting older. I mean, not even that old, I’d say probably when I turned like 20. Oh, I had a CRI, a mini crisis at like 27, cuz that’s when my mom married. My dad, um, is when she was 27. And then they obviously like started planning out having kids and whatever.

[00:17:51] Angela: And I was like, oh my God, I’m 27. I’m still single. I don’t even have a. Like, you know, I just like kind of spiraled and I was like, oh fuck, am I gonna have kids in time? So then I think 27 is when I started thinking of the biological clock issue, because I was like, before that, I was like, I’m so fucking young, like get outta my face.

[00:18:10] Angela: I don’t care about this. Like, I I’ll deal with this later. Um, but I, I think that moment was when I was like, oh, I need to start thinking about. Because it’s unfair, but like the reality is that as a woman, if you wanna have a kid naturally without having potential complications, you need to factor in your age.

[00:18:29] Angela: So mm-hmm, . That was another. Yep. Um, and then I’d say my most recent pressure is just thinking about my, our parents, respectively getting older. It’s my dad has gotten baby fever. I think we’ve talked about this. So he’s the one who has like extreme baby fever. Um, so he like desperately wants grandkids. Um, and he doesn’t like say it to my face necessarily, except during my weddings speeches, you know, but, um, I think just.

[00:19:00] Angela: It is really sad, but like forecasting out of like how many years left do we have with our parents before they’re gone? It’s like it, the longer I wait, the longer, they won’t get to meet their grandkids before they PA you know, it’s really sad stuff, but like, they’re like so many different factors that play into it that have like, come about and evolved again, um, over time.

[00:19:22] Angela: So yeah, lots of things, lots of

[00:19:23] Jesse: things. Wow. That’s super, super, um, Stressful .

[00:19:29] Angela: Did you ever feel like you had some inkling of like, maybe I do want kids and like for this reason, or like, did you ever feel any pressures of like, if I don’t X, Y, Z, that kind of stuff? Yeah.

[00:19:43] Jesse: You know, like, we’ve talked a lot about it during like our dating and personal life episodes, but to be honest, like my, like my parents haven’t really put much pressure on me to.

[00:19:55] Jesse: Any of that. Like, I think that they’ve talked about it. Like, um, like when I came out to my mom, I think there was like a part of what she had in her head that she never expressed where she was like, okay, well that’s just not gonna happen anymore. And they didn’t really, you know, mention all that. I don’t really know why, because it does seem to be such a big issue.

[00:20:15] Jesse: And I. Not big, not big issue, but it’s like a big topic and I am the only child. So like technically it’s me or nobody , there’s no backup plan. Yeah. Um, but no, they never really mentioned any of that stuff. And in fact, like my dad doesn’t really ask me about my personal life. So my opinions on having children are all my own because I’ve never been pushed one way or the other.

[00:20:41] Jesse: for me, like the reasons why not? I would probably say like, they’re very similar to my friends ones, but I’ve definitely mentioned this before. I think the first thing is it’s more of a selfish reason. I don’t know if I would be good with a child. And I also don’t know if I would ever be in a place in my life where I’m like, I’m so done with, you know, focusing on my own.

[00:21:01] Jesse: Development and like development of my relationships with, you know, my partner and friends and stuff that I would be like, okay, I’m ready to like single my time into this. Yeah. Tiny human and like helping them build their lives. So that’s like the first thing, the second thing is, it’s just like, It’s like a huge commitment to make.

[00:21:18] Jesse: Like you cannot, it’s like not, you cannot back out of it. No, it’s not like owning a pet. It’s not even like getting married and getting divorced. Like that’s something you could like reasonably back out of and you know, no harm, no foul necessarily, but you can’t back out of having a kid. Like you can’t just be like, I don’t want this baby anymore.

[00:21:33] Jesse: Like. . I mean, you could, but you could, but that’s not, I don’t think it’s, that’s like morally unethical to like have the baby and then be like, oh no, I made a mistake. Like, yeah. Yeah. So like, at least for me it is, and I understand like, some people have that situation with like, I really, I really thought I wanted it and I wanna give it up.

[00:21:51] Jesse: But for me, I’m like, I would prefer to like really, really be sure that I want this before I. Bring the baby into the world or adopt the child. And so, and then I’m not really there yet. And then I think the last thing to consider is like, I, I’m also kind of in the camp with my friends where I’m just like, thinking about like what the world is gonna be like, and not necessarily that the world is gonna be like destroyed or anything.

[00:22:15] Jesse: But I just think that it’s a really, really complicated place to navigate right now. And I don’t feel C. That I could help a person navigate their life. And, and, and so I’m like, I don’t know if I, if I should have kids, because if I can’t, you know, if I’m not sure that I can commit to this child, if I’m not sure I can be the right guardian for them to like, help guide them, I don’t think I should.

[00:22:39] Jesse: Like, I don’t think it would be fair. And so those are probably like my, you know, internal reasons, of course, like I said, that could, that could change, you know, like as you get older, your priorities shift and I might get to a point where I’m like, you. I think it is time. Like it’s ti like I have good relationships and those aren’t gonna change and it’s time to like focus on, you know, something else, something new mm-hmm

[00:23:03] Jesse: But for right now, it’s kind of like, that’s where. My head is at when it comes to children. Of course, I love other people’s children. Like I’ll take care of other people’s children, but I just like, for myself, I don’t think I, and I can do that. Like temporarily. I just don’t think that I can do it like 24 7.

[00:23:17] Jesse: Sure. Cause I like listen to, I listen to like Karen talk about her children. I listen to other coworkers talking about other children and I’m like, there is no way, no way I’m waking up at 3:00 AM for, let me, I don’t even wake up at 3:00 AM for. To do anything. Like if I need to care for myself, I just be like, I’m gonna sleep through it.

[00:23:35] Jesse: so I’m like a baby, like, ah, I don’t know.

[00:23:38] Angela: and it’s probably not just once that you’re waking

[00:23:41] Jesse: up either. Yeah, exactly. I’m I’m just like this, this just sounds so I’m already so tired. Like I just, I don’t think this just listening to it. exactly. I’m I just, I just don’t think I could.

[00:23:51] Angela: Well, okay. You mentioned how it’s different from having.

[00:23:54] Angela: A fair baby. Well, you do have a fair baby. I do have a fair, because I don’t know. I, I was thinking about you and Juniper when you were talking about like, you’re not sure you have the capacity to like care for a thing. I’m like, you care a lot about Juniper and you have like a sweet relationship with him.

[00:24:09] Jesse: What’s going on there. Yeah, I, I do. Um, but it’s different. So like it’s the same thing where I’m like, yeah, if you leave your child with me for like, you know, maybe a day, a few days, that’s fine. I can do that. But like for like years and years and years, I don’t, I don’t know about that. And, and, and, and Juniper’s different, like Juniper I got when he was like an adult cat, so he already has like some life skills.

[00:24:34] Jesse: Like he knows how to poop in a box. He knows how to eat food. He’s already independent. Like he’s, if I like adopt it, like an adult, so like, sure. I just have to make sure he has food. Make sure he has water, you know, scoop his poop box and then just like, hang out with him, you know? A few, a few hours every day.

[00:24:53] Jesse: And that’s cool. But with like a child that’s like a 24 7 like 18 year commitment. Yeah. At. Which is like much, much more, I think, aggressive than having an animal. That’s

[00:25:06] Angela: so funny. The way you described Juniper, he is like, you’re a cat roommate that you,

[00:25:11] Jesse: no, he is kids for. Yeah. I he’s like he’s my other partner that I live with.

[00:25:17] Jesse: Sure. Yes. But like, aside from the fact that he needs, you know, food and water and sometimes attention, he’s not like particularly dependent on me. Yeah. He spends most of the day, like sleeping. Looking out the window, running around, like stuff like that. So I don’t, he’s not like help.

[00:25:33] Angela: Isn’t that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:34] Angela: Yeah. Well, cats are different. It, you make a good point that you got him while he was already an adult adult because I, Karen, who has the baby now, she also has two cats. And I met them when they were kittens kittens and they were crazy. How crazy? Yeah. Um, like I was scared of them. Crazy. They locked, they like backed me into the quarter of a BA third.

[00:25:59] Angela: Why I was staying at her apartment once and I got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and because cats are NOC nocturnal, and they were kittens. So they were, you know, wide awake all the time. Mm-hmm or just like, you know, five minute naps and like would zoom around. I came out of my room.

[00:26:16] Angela: and then they like zoomed towards me. I just saw like eyes glowing in the night. oh God, they both zoomed towards me. And so I like ran into the bathroom, which is where I was trying to go anyway. And I slammed the door shut. And then I just saw their tiny pause swiping under the door. And I was like, oh my God.

[00:26:34] Angela: And they were doing that for like 20 minutes. I was like, I can’t get out.

[00:26:38] Jesse: see. Like, that’s why, you know, like, I love, I love baby animals. Like I love puppies. I love kittens, but I would. Like, because it’s, it’s a much more, it’s a much more investment of your time to take care of a baby animal than it is to have an adult.

[00:26:54] Angela: Yeah. And cats versus dogs too, are very different because I mm-hmm, like we have been talking about getting a dog for a long time and we do wanna get a dog before, hopefully before we have kids. Cuz it’s, it’s kind of like a training ladder. It is right? Yeah. Especially dog, because they are more they’re neater than cats.

[00:27:13] Angela: Like they look, they are so lovable and there’s a veering range of like dumb to smart dogs, obviously by breed and whatnot. They’re. But generally they need more attention than. Yeah. If you get a puppy, especially, it is kind of like a baby, because I have a lot of outside of, uh, human babies. I have a lot of friends who like in the last five years got animal babies and a lot of them are dogs and they got them as puppies.

[00:27:38] Angela: And they’re like, I haven’t slept in two months, like, because the dog just like cries in the middle of the night and you have to like create, train them and stuff. So that. Learn how to not be, you know, so attached to you and all that stuff. And so I was like, you kind of just sound like you have an actual baby.

[00:27:56] Angela: Um, so yeah, I feel like that will be our, you know, the training wheels version first before the, the human baby.

[00:28:04] Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. I mean like, you do have to spend a lot of, I mean, if you do get a puppy yeah. You, you have to, yeah. You do have to like teach the puppy skills. You have to walk the puppy. I mean, you still have to walk a dog.

[00:28:14] Jesse: Like it’s a lot of time. Mm-hmm, much more time. That’s why I got cat. Cuz it’s easier to deal with. Well,

[00:28:19] Angela: my, my hope is that the dog becomes well trained and then is like chill by the time the baby comes along and then it’s like, it’s protector, you know, all those internet videos.

[00:28:29] Jesse: Oh yeah. The cute baby dog videos.

[00:28:30] Jesse: Yes. Yeah. I love

those.

[00:28:32] Angela: I love those. Yeah. Okay. Well earlier you already mentioned a few, like the unspoken reasons why, especially like gay people may not have. Kids mm-hmm and that you mentioned adoption or surrogacy. You wanna talk a little bit about that and it, do you know any people personally that have like gone through either of those processes?

[00:28:53] Angela: No.

[00:28:54] Jesse: Oh, I mean, I follow this hockey dad, Instagram account. They have two children. They’re very cute, but I don’t actually know they, I mean, anyone that I’ve any gay couple that I’ve seen with children, they’re rich, they’re like filthy rich. Um, and these guys were like close to the beginning of the pandemic.

[00:29:12] Jesse: They’re like, bye. We bought a house in London. We’ll see you later. And I’m like, you just, like, you just bought a house in London, just like to leave for the I’m like how much money do you have? So it’s these, I think it’s yeah. I was like, who are you? I haven’t personally looked into it, but I know it’s at least like for adoption, it’s at least $10,000 in like fees, legal shit.

[00:29:34] Jesse: Mm-hmm um, and it can be more, more than. It’s not, uh, empirical, but I have a friend, I think she’s looking to adopt. She’s not, she’s not gay. She’s just, she just wants to adopt as a single mother. And she had gone through like months and months and stuff with the state government and they still were like, we don’t have anyone to give you.

[00:29:53] Jesse: So she went like a private route to try to find like a private adoption agency. So I think that whole thing, like that whole process is really murky as well. Um, in terms of like how you navigate it, what the players are, but overall, I think it is just like a very expensive thing to do. And I also feel like just based off of seeing that.

[00:30:14] Jesse: It can be a little bit of a heartbreaking thing as well, because you’re not necessarily guaranteed that you will be able to adopt whoever they bring in front of you. So you might be going through the emotions and you might become very invested in this baby toddler, child, whatever. And then they’ll be like, actually, you know, someone else adopted them or like, we can’t let you adopt for X, Y, Z reasons.

[00:30:33] Jesse: So I think it is a, it’s a very emotionally trying process. And then like surrogacy that’s like impossible, you know, I don’t know. It would just be like the idea of buying someone’s body to bear your child is such a weird thing for me. I’m like, it just feels so uncomfortable. And, and like, unless it’s somebody in my life that was like, Oh, like, yeah, I’ll do this for you because you’re a close friend.

[00:30:58] Jesse: And, um, and not for like a financial reason, because it just feels icky to me. Like, it feels icky that some, like you might be paying someone to do that because they don’t have any their choice and like financially they’re stuck or something like that. Um, versus, you know, if it’s a friend, I would be like, okay, like this is less icky because you know, they’re not in need.

[00:31:17] Jesse: They just wanna do it as a friend, but still like the whole process. I feel like it’s very, it’s a huge emotional investment, especially you’re trusting someone to carry your baby. . Well, Surro

[00:31:29] Angela: is an interesting topic because I think that’s the share. No, sorry. That’s not fair. Adoption and surrogacy are both options for street and, um, gay couples obviously, but like surrogacy is slightly different when it’s straight versus gay couples because in a straight couple, technically the egg and the sperm are from.

[00:31:51] Angela: well, I guess it depends, I guess it depends. Totally depends. Right. Because sometimes it’s like the mother. Just can’t bear children for some, some reason or another, but like the egg is still fine. And then they, they can’t just like plant an egg and the sperm into this other woman. So it’s not technically her egg.

[00:32:13] Angela: Yeah. So then it is like, she’s literally just, you know, the oven. Um, but other times, yeah, you, you do get like a donation of one or the other thing versus yeah. In gay couples, it, you obviously have to. The egg donated, but isn’t it like, kind of like roll the dice? Who sperm? I, I, I heard there was kind of a, like, sometimes you choose sometimes it’s just like, I don’t implant both.

[00:32:35] Angela: And like, see which one

[00:32:37] Jesse: I thought that they it’s like advanced now where they can like mix your show. Oh, whoa. What? I don’t know. I could be wrong. But I’m like, it’s it’s they made a vaccine in like a year, which I should be able to make like a, a sperm, this designer, DNA designer sperm. I, I mean, I really don’t know, but yeah, I would also say like, definitely between those two things I would probably adopt.

[00:33:01] Jesse: I think adoption is overall cheaper. Um, and there’s like less, I think there’s maybe like fewer legal complexities, because like, if someone’s bearing your child, like they could technically, you have to like sign away the baby, basically mm-hmm and there could still be some complications later on in the line versus adoption, plus like, I I’m kind of the same way where I’d be like, let me, let me, like, I don’t want it like a baby.

[00:33:23] Jesse: I want like a toddler to like child

[00:33:26] Angela: age. I want an 18 year. I want a 17 and a half year old

[00:33:30] Jesse: age. no, but like, I want, you know, I want someone and I want a child who’s like, You know, ha maybe like 50% potty trained. I can like talk to the child, you know, this is my normal fashion. Okay, sure. Yeah. yeah.

[00:33:45] Angela: Okay. I understand.

[00:33:46] Angela: I understand. Basically

[00:33:47] Jesse: like the child needs to have like the same life skills as Juniper when I adopt them.

[00:33:53] Angela: Oh, okay. That’s fair. Okay. Fine. Except jumping like six feet in there. Him or

[00:33:57] Jesse: her? Yeah. Except jumping six feet in there,

[00:33:59] Angela: in there. Well from my side, not me personally, obviously, but some of the other like unspoken complications with kids that I have witnessed from friends, uh, as you know, friends are starting to have kids and whatnot is definitely, as I mentioned, the biological clock situation.

[00:34:16] Angela: Mm-hmm , I think we’re in a complicated. Place in society right now where it’s like, women’s rights. Like we deserve, you know, we are the same as men, we get to blah, blah, blah. Like yeah, sure. Yes, yes, yes. But I think that’s also prolonged the idea of like, women should be in the workforce for as long as possible and like, You know, prioritize your career advancement over, starting a family because science has developed and you can like freeze your eggs and whatever.

[00:34:43] Angela: Right. Mm-hmm yes. True, great, great. That there are options, but runs into complications for many reasons. Like, yeah, you can freeze your eggs, but then you’re inherently more likely that you’re not gonna be having your child naturally and you will have to go through. In vitro, um, or IVF in order to have the kid, which is where they like replant the egg back in your body, essentially.

[00:35:10] Angela: Um, and you have to like take a shit ton of hormones in order to make your body ready for that. It costs a ton of money and you might lose the baby because many reasons, but like, Personally know a friend or two that have like lost babies through the IVF process. And it’s like, it’s grueling. It’s like, not only did you spend all this money and like stab yourself with hormones every day, for weeks on end and then get pregnant to then lose the baby and then like have to go all over again.

[00:35:45] Angela: And then one of my friends who had a child, she was 35 when she was pregnant. And she was like in the hospital for a checkup and she was like, They literally are telling me the legal like term for my pregnancy is a geriatric pregnancy because I’m yeah. 35. Yeah. So it’s like, I mean, there’s just like real complications, right?

[00:36:07] Angela: You’re like body is just not as prime for housing, a baby after certain age. So then if you do choose the like IVF route or whatnot, like you’re going to go through a lot of stuff in order to make that happen. And then I also have friends who is like, There’s. Nothing. The doctors can detect that’s wrong with either of your, like the eggs or sperm, but for some reason you’re just not getting pregnant.

[00:36:30] Angela: Like, there’s just like, there’s so many things and it’s just like, what can you really do about that? And then for me, something that I’ve been struggling with is like, I’ve been on birth control for. A really long time, like over 10 years I started when I was in college and it wasn’t even for sex. It was because my period was like weird.

[00:36:49] Angela: Mm-hmm like, it was really irregular. And I had heard that birth control was like a really strong way to like regulate it. And I was like, great. Let’s do it. And so that’s what I was using it for mostly until the last year or so. I finally decided like, mm, I wanna like rid my body of like unnecessary chemical dependencies.

[00:37:09] Angela: Um, and I like started getting off the pill and then I started reading a book about like getting off the pill and kinda like rereating your body. There are so many long term side effects to taking birth control that no one talks about. And one of them is that it can make you. I mean, infertile is like the worst potential possibility, but it can do that.

[00:37:33] Angela: The other is just like, it just makes your body really difficult to conceive because you’ve been telling it, you know, you’ve been feeding it blockers for years and years and years, and it’s like, oh, I’m supposed to like be a nurturing environment now again. So, yeah. And I’m still struggling with reregulating my period now, after being off the pill for a year.

[00:37:54] Angela: So it’s just. It, the human body is like comp so complex and like so many factors that you can’t control. Um, and so I’m just trying to like minimize my risk of, you know, like having more complications later, but yeah, there are so many things. And then, yeah, people don’t talk about miscarriages, but as Ali won bravely joked about her standup comedy, it’s more common than people.

[00:38:21] Angela: Think just like people don’t talk about it and it it’s really sad again, emotionally and physically all of that. So yeah.

[00:38:28] Jesse: I think people wanna think about it. Like you don’t want to think about all those things, right? You just want to think about, you know, the ideal situation where you have the baby naturally, and everything’s beautiful and it’s like a movie and amazing, and you look like a million bucks when you conceive.

[00:38:41] Jesse: And the baby is like beautiful as

[00:38:43] Angela: it comes out. Not an alien slimy thing. Yeah. Not an

[00:38:46] Jesse: alien, like curd, basically that came out your body.

[00:38:49] Angela: That’s what they all, can we just agree? That’s what all babies are like

[00:38:52] Jesse: when they come out. Probably they’re disgusting when they come out. Okay. Like how can it not be, it’s literally covered in your inside, like blood

[00:39:01] Angela: is so other shit.

[00:39:02] Angela: Maybe literal shit. Every, a lot of people poop. Yes. Yeah. Yes. You can’t control it. You’re just pushing as hard

[00:39:09] Jesse: as you can. So that’s what I mean. I just, you know, there’s like so many things about. The process of having a child, whether naturally, or through adoption or through surrogacy, that is just like, it’s just like a minefield.

[00:39:23] Jesse: And let me tell you, I’m not trying to get my life more complicated. I’m trying to simplify my life like, and the older I get this more simplistic, I want my life to be, you know, so it’s just like all of. New things that you will have to consider and be really honest with yourself about I’m just like, I don’t know if I want to do this.

[00:39:44] Jesse: Like, it’s like a huge, I don’t know. I

[00:39:46] Angela: get it. Look, I get it. yeah,

[00:39:49] Jesse: I will say I like, you know, my friend group is not there yet where it’s like everyone is having babies, but I wonder what it will feel like when that starts to become the case where you’re like the last person that’s like baby list. Hmm. Um, I don’t think that’ll ever be the case because again, like it’s not, I don’t think it’s that common for gay men to have children, even through adoption.

[00:40:11] Jesse: It’s not like EV everyone will eventually do it kind of situation. Yeah. Yeah. So I always think about what that would be like, but I think I would just like, you know, current me is like, I’m just gonna be that like fun gunk character on the TV. Mm-hmm they like shows up with amazing gifts. And I talk to, you know, the offspring, like they’re adults.

[00:40:29] Jesse: So they like, love me. And I’m secretly just drunk the entire time. yeah, I can

[00:40:35] Angela: see that. I can see it.

[00:40:37] Jesse: okay. Listeners. So we always like to end on a sweet treat. So we’re moving on to the fortune cookie part of the podcast. I think we had two things we wanted to hash over discuss, which is potential names for babies and also what your dream baby profile would be like.

[00:40:56] Jesse: What’s your ideal baby? Like? So. I will, um, let you take the lead on this one. Since my, my dream situations are very far from being feasible, as I cannot make a baby, I’ve

[00:41:09] Angela: never thought about baby names. So I actually don’t have these ready at all. All I know is that I will want them to have a Chinese name and an English name.

[00:41:23] Angela: Yeah. So I think that that’s one thing I thought about when I got married, because I had to fill in. It, they ask you, you know, are one of you going to change your last name? And if so, like what is it gonna be changed too? So I like legally I’ve changed it on the marriage certificate, but I haven’t.

[00:41:39] Angela: Submitted it to social security and whatever. So like it’s not okay. Legal anywhere yet. But, um, when I change everything it’s gonna become, Lynn’s gonna become my middle name and then requires gonna be my last name. Okay. So that’s how I’m like, kind of like honoring my Chinese name still, but obviously my Chinese name doesn’t change.

[00:41:56] Angela: And then when I, when I changed my name, I did think about like, oh, when we have kids, like, I definitely will still want them to have a Chinese name and it will obviously. Lynn, you know, like, yeah. Um, so that way my, you know, my family still has that Carrie through. So that’s that’s as far as I’ve like, thought about names, TBH,

[00:42:18] Jesse: would you name your child after food or fruit?

[00:42:21] Jesse: Apple?

[00:42:22] Angela: God, no dude, no, no inanimate objects. I don’t understand any of those names. I just don’t.

[00:42:30] Jesse: Um, what about Al directions? oh my gosh. West. What about like, what about like, really funny, funny spellings, like, um, Ashley, but like a S H L E I G H Ashley girl. No

[00:42:44] Angela: girl. No. Who do you think I’m a white girl, like who?

[00:42:47] Angela: I can’t name my kid. That kind of thing. No, you know what, actually, but maybe it would make sense at least to have names that are easy to say. In both English and Spanish. Like my name’s an example of that. Like, obviously it doesn’t sound the same, but like Angela an is something that exists in Spanish versus like, yeah.

[00:43:08] Angela: Ashley, especially he, I G H is fucking weird and no one would understand.

[00:43:15] Jesse: What about in Spain, old woman names? Like,

[00:43:17] Angela: no, I. Yeah, no, , it’s weird because names I’ve like vaguely thought about names, not for future children. Just like maybe when people, when I have friends that are like, thinking about names, I’ve like, thought about it momentarily and names are weird because they like come, you know, the popularity comes.

[00:43:35] Angela: And goes and goes. Yeah. So like, I definitely wouldn’t want a name. That’s like, you know, hot for the moment. Like some people name their babies, like KK because game of Thrones and that kind of stuff, like I would not wanna name my baby, anything like that, but. I’ve also thought like old man names, old woman names, like maybe they’ll become hot again, but I doubt it.

[00:43:56] Angela: I don’t know. I think for me thinking back on like all the trauma of childhood and whatnot, I’m trying to like minimize the amount of trauma I’m forcing onto my child, having a weird, hard to, or like weird old person name is probably not like the best for that child with kids. So kids being mean that makes sense.

[00:44:17] Angela: That’s what I’m saying. Makes yeah, that makes. How about you? You’ll just, um, you’ll go with the continued Juniper. So it’s like Oak , like Ivy ,

[00:44:28] Jesse: uh, fur Douglas, Douglas, fir Douglas fir maybe, uh, Redwood. I don’t know. I didn’t name Juniper.

[00:44:36] Angela: Oh, he was already named that was his name?

[00:44:39] Jesse: Yeah. Okay. I did. I was like, I don’t think he’s like, he’s already like an adult, so I’m like, if I change his name, it’ll be confusing.

[00:44:45] Jesse: That’s so I just kept it the same.

[00:44:47] Angela: There’s a theory that animals don’t actually recognize their names. That they just recognize like the tone that their owner says their name in mm-hmm mm-hmm yeah. So you could be saying anything, but if you say it in the same tone as the way you usually say his name

[00:45:03] Jesse: will still yeah.

[00:45:04] Jesse: I, I feel like you have to say his name a specific way, but he does like turn around when I say his name. And I think when, when other people say it, it’s like a very, it’s a very distinctive name. Yes. So I think the intonation’s easier to pick up for him. Yeah. But he does like turn around and people are like, Juna um, no, I haven’t really thought about it.

[00:45:22] Jesse: I just, I like weird Irish names. Not like those unpronounceable words. CERSI and CERSI could be one. It could be, um, Locklin. Oh, it could be, yeah. Okay. I don’t know. I, yeah, I like, I like the way that. Sound, but yeah, they’re also like very difficult names. So I’m like, I don’t know if I would put that on someone or I would be like, you know, I, I would, I would name them that, but then I would call them like an easy version of it.

[00:45:47] Jesse: Yeah.

[00:45:48] Angela: Yeah. I could see that. Yeah. Okay. Um, and then dream baby profile. I mean, again, I haven’t thought that hard about this. I just want. I want them to be smart, but with social skills. Okay. And to be confident and, you know, have empathy for people. I don’t know this just like, I don’t, I don’t have like that many things.

[00:46:10] Angela: It’s just like, be a good human. Yeah. You know,

[00:46:12] Jesse: generally good things. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, I would say I would want a child that will sleep for the most part. I know that they don’t sleep. Like, you know, it’s very difficult for them to sleep, but yes. um, honestly, this is gonna sound really shallow, but I want a really beautiful child because it, it makes a difference in life to be beautiful.

[00:46:35] Jesse: Mm-hmm like, it does make, it makes a lot of things much easier. Yeah. And I’m like, if, if they can be beautiful, good for them, they’re have a much easier life you’re not wrong. Yeah. And, and all those things that you mentioned, confidence, social skills, empathy for people. Um, particularly me as I get older, don’t leave me in the home, but actually depends if it’s a fun home.

[00:46:58] Jesse: Yeah. Leave me there. It’s a

[00:47:00] Angela: but come visit yeah, but come visit sometimes. Yeah. Okay. Well on that note okay. Well, interesting topic. Um, maybe we’ll circle back in 10 years.

[00:47:13] Jesse: oh God. On this, literally like each of us has like a baby at this point and we. What do we do?

[00:47:20] Angela: I can’t well, listeners, whatever stage of the baby making baby rearing, uh, life you are in right now, write us in with what you thought about this episode, what your perspective was about having kids before or after.

[00:47:37] Angela: If you already have kids now or hit us up with your dream baby profile, uh, in our notes, we wrote mash, but make it baby characteristics. So. Draw mash, send it to us. and come back next week. We’ll have another fresh episode for you then. And until then, bitches.

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A Renewed Interest in Indian Beauty


Note: Transcript fully created by automated AI


[00:00:00] Jesse: Hi everyone I’m Jesse Lin

[00:00:13] Angela: And I’m Angela Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, but where are you really? From today? We have a special guest PICA SW up and she holds many different titles and I won’t try to do it justice. So partica, if you want to give your introduction is to who you are for our listeners, as well as how you would answer, but where you really from, um, I will release the floor to you.

[00:00:40] Pritika: Great, thanks. Um, so happy to be on the show and, um, Share a little bit about myself and what I’m doing right now. So I am founder and CEO of prone, beauty. I’m also global ambassador of operations smile. And, um, I’m also a fashion model. And I an I guess I’d answer the question. Like where am I really from?

[00:01:01] Pritika: I would say that I am, you know, I grew up in Virginia, but I’m originally from, uh, LA. No, which is a city in. North India.

[00:01:10] Angela: Cool. Thanks. Um, and we talked off the record earlier, but when we posed the question of like, but where are you really from? You mentioned that because you work in the fashion industry, sometimes other people have different intentions when they ask you that kind of question.

[00:01:28] Angela: So what’s your experience been like in that industry being one of the few Indian American models that are

[00:01:35] Pritika: out. . Yeah, I think that most people would ask me that question because they want to know like, why I look the way I look, you know, where are these features coming from? Am I mixed? A lot of times people think that I have to be mixed and that I can’t just be, you know, solely Indian, which, you know, my, everyone in my family is just Indian

[00:01:54] Pritika: Um, and yeah, I think a lot of it just has to do with the di you know, diversity in the industry and, um, and making sure that they, I guess, each designer kind of. Fills certain boxes when, when it comes to that. And I know it’s changed a lot, but like there was a certain point in time where I was like the only Indian model in New York.

[00:02:13] Pritika: And, um, not saying I was the first Indian model ever, but when, um, in that city, it was just like kind of a surprise to see how there was such a lack of representation. Um, and that struck me, like when I was. Much younger. And when I was looking through the pages of different magazines, but then, you know, more so when I actually moved to New York to pursue my career and so much has changed since then.

[00:02:36] Pritika: And I think it’s really remarkable that people are, you know, opening their minds to understanding just the diversity within each culture as well. So that’s been really exciting for me to not only, you know, be a part of it, but just to kind of see it now that I’ve been, uh, in the industry now for almost eight.

[00:02:54] Angela: that’s

[00:02:54] Jesse: awesome. Uh, you seem to have a very like positive outlook and like intention coming into this question and it is very much of a mixed bag for our guests. Like some of them are like eye roll or some of them are like very outwardly positive about it. What kind of drives your maybe not intention that you’re positive feeling behind an answering that.

[00:03:18] Pritika: Well, I think it’s because I’ve seen all sides of it. I mean, I’ve seen, I’ve seen like, you know, from the very beginning when diversity was just like a trend and I’ve seen it kind of transform into, okay. People actually care about representing the true diversity of this world and, and having their brands, uh, resonate with every single person that may be looking at an ad or at a commercial.

[00:03:42] Pritika: And then now to. , you know, there might be another extreme where it’s like only, you know, African American models or, um, you know, Indian models or like, you know, I think that diversity is such a it’s, it’s such a like targeted subject where people are so afraid to say how they really feel. And I just think that you ha, if you’re gonna be really diverse, you have to be.

[00:04:05] Pritika: Um, to both ends of the spectrum and you have to be positive about it because I think that it’s about, you know, how people are growing and changing and how our society’s growing and changing. And you can’t ever be negative about that because the moment you’re negative about it, I think that that prevents growth and we’re trying to push everyone forward.

[00:04:22] Pritika: We’re trying to, uh, you know, open different people’s minds up. You know, what, what it needs to be. So like, I just think the best way to do that is to remain positive. And, you know, I had had so many like struggles at the very beginning of my career because I was too ethnic looking. I was too dark. I was too, this, I was too that, but like, mm-hmm, , you know, you can’t let that negativity make you feel, uh, insecure about yourself or your position in an industry or your position in this world.

[00:04:49] Pritika: You just have to know like, okay, this is what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna do my very best. And I’m gonna be the best. Like I can be, you know, That’s what you have to do. And so that’s like how I kind of started. And I think that’s because my mom, like, she’s a very positive person. Mm-hmm, , she’s also very much, she’s taught me meditation.

[00:05:06] Pritika: She’s taught me to move through life with intention and all of these things, uh, kind of build up and, and make you realize, like that’s how you just have to be, especially in an industry, like, you know, fashion. I love that.

[00:05:19] Jesse: I love that too. It’s kind of like take me as I am 100% I’m beautiful or that’s on you.

[00:05:25] Jesse: And it’s, it’s a, I, you know what, it’s, it’s such a resonating thing for me because like, I haven’t until very recently been like, I feel full potential power here, like with my life, how I look like my relationships. And so to hear that coming from other people. I like it. Yes. ,

[00:05:41] Pritika: you know, but that’s kind of what happened is like, I feel like when you try to be something that you’re not, and you’re like, okay, I’ve gotta be perfect.

[00:05:48] Pritika: I’ve gotta be super edgy for, you know, this kind of job or I’ve gotta be like, you know, X, Y, or Z for something else then. You lose that like inner confidence. So you just, and, and you realize that it’s not about you. Like at the end of the day, if you’re not, you know, selected for a job or if you’re not gonna end up, I mean, it doesn’t even have to be in fashion.

[00:06:06] Pritika: It can be in like engineering or whatever, whatever you end up doing, you know, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not always about you. It’s, there’s so many other, you know, issues or circumstances that you’re unaware of. And so you just have. Be your best. And really once you do that, like the confidence is gonna shine right through.

[00:06:24] Pritika: And it shows that you’re comfortable with who you are and where you’re going. I

[00:06:31] Angela: feel like everything you just said is like what I’ve been spending years of like intentional self growth, trying to like accept mostly like, especially the idea of like, it’s not about you. It’s like, it’s not personal. It’s.

[00:06:46] Angela: You know, there’s so many things out of your control that are shaping the thing that’s happening right now. And don’t take it personally because that’ll only kind of ruin it for yourself. Um, but it’s really cool to hear you like, so confidently state those things, because it’s, it’s definitely one of my biggest struggles.

[00:07:01] Angela: It’s just like, how do I think outside of myself. In any given situation and just like accept it for what it is. So really cool

[00:07:09] Pritika: to hear you say that. Oh, we, we all struggle with it. Like it took years mm-hmm and I think it’s okay. You know, it’s okay. That it’s a struggle because it’s going to be, yeah.

[00:07:19] Angela: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Angela: So you mentioned meditation and I read that your mom was a, or is still a Yogi. Um, so you were kind of brought up in more kind of spiritual practices and stuff and. One of our previous guests is one of my old roommates, but also, uh, one of the most spiritual people I know, um, CPA. And we had, uh, an episode talking about kind of like Eastern versus Western medicine because she’s a Western trained doctor, but grew up very spiritual and practice IIC.

[00:07:53] Angela: Um, practices as well. So we had like a little bit of an introduction into that, but I read that, you know, procte your beauty line. It was highly inspired by and takes kind of nods from IRI. Can you explain a little bit about like the influences that you had from that respect growing up and how it inspired you to create your beauty line?

[00:08:15] Pritika: Yeah, so, I mean, I think the biggest thing with Eastern versus Western beauty is. Eastern beauty has this like holistic philosophy. So it’s like all about, um, you know, it’s all about the mind, body and soul and that connection and that balance. Um, and I think, well, so this is like something in my family too, cuz my father’s an eye surgeon, so he’s all about Western medicine.

[00:08:38] Pritika: My mom is all about, you know, Eastern medicine and practices. So I kind of got the balance from them. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, yeah, so I think. You know, when I was developing proxy too. I mean, just because of my upbringing and, uh, my mother’s influence and my father’s influence, I think that it was great to be able to.

[00:08:59] Pritika: Craft this like integrated approach to everything. Um, because I always believed in a lot of the Eastern influences and Eastern practices, but a lot of people didn’t and, you know, I definitely used to say, oh, that that can’t possibly be effective or that can’t possibly, uh, you know, work for me, whether it’s like ingesting something or applying, literally taking.

[00:09:20] Pritika: Piece of Alovera like off of my plant. Yeah. And like applying it all over my face, but I mean, it works, it tightens and it brightens and , uh, you know, all of those things. You’re when you’re like a little bit younger, you’re you’re exposed to it. You’re not exactly sure what that’s gonna do, but, um, I think just my upbringing had a lot to do with this sort of hybrid concept that proc is based off of.

[00:09:40] Pritika: And you know, how we made this concept, which is like the cultural richness and spirituality of India with the contemporary energy and technology of the west. And, um, it’s really like who I am too, because like, you know, I’m really comfortable with my American heritage. I’m really comfortable. You know, my Indian culture and it’s never something that I’ve felt like I had to choose between or that, you know, I, I had to kind of like, maybe I maybe had to be one more over the other.

[00:10:07] Pritika: And I think a lot of people have struggled with that. Um, and I think like, as far as like Western philosophies and practices, when it comes to wellness, um, change a lot. And they’re also based off of, uh, I guess you could say like physical appearance, uh, I don’t wanna say it’s all about physical appearance, but it’s much more about physical appearance.

[00:10:28] Pritika: Like, okay, use this cream and you’re gonna get rid of your acne or use this cream and you’re gonna get rid of your discoloration. Like, that’s just not really how Eastern medicine, you know, was built. so that’s like a key difference, I think there.

[00:10:42] Angela: So, um, do proxy products then aim to do something more like long term or like fix or not fix, but like help improve something more foundationally than if it’s not this kind of spot treatment type Western angle.

[00:10:57] Pritika: I mean, so like the thing about proxies also, we wanted to kind of bring Indian beauty to the forefront and I don’t wanna say level up, but a lot of the other, I guess you could say Indian and VEIC brands that are were out there and that are out there are about repackaging, traditional recipes and ingredients, and not really innovating in the space.

[00:11:17] Pritika: And I really wanted to do that with proc. Our instinct, glow exfoliator. It also has that, like, you know, that modern aspect where it’s like, and it does give you that instinct glow, but it’s about like nourishing, like the skin in the soul. So everything, like I said is about the mind body and soul. And it’s like making sure that you address all three of those things and that you can, you know, nourish, like, for example, when you’re using one of our products, it’s like, you’re, you know, you’re excited about the rice to the rice polisher.

[00:11:44] Pritika: You’re taking like a scoop of the. Polisher powder and you’re putting in your hands and you’re rubbing it in. And you see that there’s like this color transformation from this white powder to this like amethyst and that’s exciting. And that’s like, you know, it’s like, it’s making it, um, more enjoyable.

[00:12:00] Pritika: It’s much more enjoyable than like just a chore that you have to like exploit your face and then you rub it. And then you smell this beautiful aroma, which is rose Danino oil and Bevere. And this aroma is just. Comforting and nurturing. And, um, we really wanted these products to be like sensorial experiences.

[00:12:19] Pritika: It’s about like how you’re feeling during the use, like what that’s doing for your mental health as well. And, um, not only just having an instant glow or having plum Dew and glowing skin, like, you know, it’s cuz like we only have two products that right now we just launched our second one and we’re launching a new product every three months.

[00:12:38] Pritika: So cool. Each product has like a completely different experience, but it really is like addressing. I guess addressing beauty holistically. And, um, as far as like long term effects, I mean these things aren’t they’re, I mean, beauty products aren’t meant to be relied on, you know, you shouldn’t rely on them.

[00:12:58] Pritika: They’re supposed to like, like, for example, pretty polished, like you exfoliate, but it’s not like a daily chore. It’s not like a daily cleanser. It’s like something you’re doing extra for yourself because you’re. That’s step to like, do better, you know, and, and take care of yourself. So, um, yeah, I would say like, it’s, it’s about like, you know, two to three times a week, whether that’s exfoliating or, um, you know, doing a mask, but then there’s like the daily activities that you should do, like definitely moisturize every day.

[00:13:25] Pritika: I’m sure you guys know that. Um, and then, yeah, it’s, it’s supposed to make you like, overall like better off long term. So I hope that answers the question.

[00:13:38] Jesse: That’s amazing. Yeah. Like when you’re talking about it, I can see like, you’re really engaged. You’re like lighting up. You’re like really inspired by this work that you’re doing.

[00:13:46] Jesse: So maybe a good question here is like, what, where does that inspiration come from? Because I know that a lot of us on the daily, you’re doing your grind, you’re doing your job and it can be really easy to lose sight of like what it is that. Wanted to do like what your end goal is. So what are the things that keep you kind of inspired on the daily so that you can keep, uh, pushing forward and coming out with new ideas and new products and stuff like.

[00:14:12] Pritika: Yeah. I mean, I think I get inspiration from so many different areas of my life. Um, I think it starts also with inspiring yourself. Like you have to be motivated, you have to be dedicated. Um, I mean my greater goals, all. obviously to inspire women. Like I want my beauty products to make people feel good. I want them to go like people to go on our website and be excited about their life, about what they’re doing and giving them that extra motivation and that extra push.

[00:14:41] Pritika: I think my family really inspires me too. Um, my family here in the us, my family in India, um, because like, I mean, I grew up, I grew up in a family, like, obviously I’m sure you guys know how Indian parents are, how. How, um, you know, just different types of parents are sure. In our cultures and, um, yeah, they definitely pushed me a lot when I was growing up.

[00:15:04] Pritika: Uh, it wasn’t just about like being that straight a student, but it was like, it was like pushing me in every area of my life. Um, I also got involved with the operation smile, um, when I was in like eighth grade and it was about volunteering and finding ways to give back and like, you know, just kind of building this well rounded, uh, area of interest and.

[00:15:24] Pritika: So anyways, they inspire me a lot too, because whenever I’m feeling super overwhelmed, as you know, I do a lot. Between all of my different involvements, I’ll just like, give my mom a call or I’ll give my dad a call. And, um, like my dad is very, very hard working. He is an eye surgeon. He, you know, goes and travels to different offices every day.

[00:15:43] Pritika: And you know, he gets it before in the morning and drives three hours to go to his office to work and then he’ll drive to another office and it’s, it’s. Interesting growing up with a father like that, because it’s like anything I ever do, you know, it’s not as difficult oh, no, it’s not as difficult as waking up at four in the morning and driving three hours in complete like pitch black.

[00:16:05] Pritika: Like it’s just, yeah. So there’s that. And then also just, I mean, I literally will get a DM from someone that is using pretty polished right now, which is our, um, instant glow exfoliator. And they’ll tell me how much they love it. And like, That type of feedback. And I mean, it’s just so exciting. Like I can ride off of that for a week.

[00:16:26] Pritika: like, it’ll just, it’ll be like one comment. And I get so excited because I, I feel like, you know, what we’re doing is really making a difference. And I guess that goes, um, to, and it translates to other areas of my life too. Like even like with operation smile and, um, even like, In the fashion industry and like what I’ve done, um, with my career there, I just think that it’s like, when you realize that you’re like actually, you know, making some kind of difference, whether it’s big or it’s small, or if you’re impacting anyone else’s life in a meaningful way, um, it just kind of drives you forward.

[00:16:58] Pritika: And I guess I really got my first taste of that. Um, you know, when I first started working with operation smile too, like that was literally how I understood, um, you know, what fuels my fire.

[00:17:11] Angela: Awesome. There are so many angles that we could go down now based on everything that you just said, I wanna bookmark operation smile.

[00:17:19] Angela: Cause we definitely wanna talk about that. But you mentioned getting like this positive feedback and like how knowing that you’re making a difference is what like helps drive you forward. Um, I think we can definitely, uh, like that resonates with us for sure, because that’s why we do this podcast as well, is like when we.

[00:17:38] Angela: Random comments and DMS from people saying, you know, thank you for voicing stories that we don’t usually hear. So I love that with everything that you do, it sounds like from both like your involvement in the fashion industry, and you’re creating this brand, it is about like, if you didn’t necessarily see that.

[00:17:59] Angela: People who looked like you or people who kind of represented the things that you cared about when you were growing up, you are now kind of embodying that for a lot more people. Um, and so I’m curious because you do have legs in both fields right now of like you are in the fashion industry as model, but you also are an entrepreneur with this beauty brand.

[00:18:19] Angela: Um, Are you like, is there one ver versus the other that you’re getting, like more people kind of reaching out to you and saying, you know, getting inspired by your role in either one? Or is it like equally you’re you have like young girls reaching out to you about the model side and also just like users of the products on

[00:18:39] Pritika: the other side?

[00:18:41] Pritika: Um, that’s a good question. I, I feel like it’s, it depends. I think sometimes it’ll be more about product. Sometimes it’ll be more. Um, you know what I’ve done in the industry? I think a lot, like, there’ll be moments, like, for example, the probable Guran campaign, I had so many people reach out to me about the fact that I was the face.

[00:18:59] Pritika: I mean a man, the face of his bridal collection, because people just hadn’t seen like an Indian woman in, you know, in different like bridal, you know, dresses. Like they had just never seen that. And I guess that didn’t strike me until. after I know after we did this shoot, um, I just think it depends.

[00:19:20] Pritika: Sometimes it’ll be more about like property or it’ll be more about something I do. Um, you know, with my career in modeling, I think for so long, it was all about, you know, oh, I’m just so happy to see someone who looks like me, uh, you know, representing, you know, our culture representing like, you know, someone like, I guess like me, like that was basically, I.

[00:19:43] Pritika: For a majority of my career, like that was basically like the feedback I would get. And I felt like really good about that because I didn’t really have someone like that when I was growing up. And I was just, I mean, I’m, I was from like, you know, middle of nowhere, Virginia, and, you know, obviously I didn’t think that modeling was something I, I would be able to do.

[00:20:01] Pritika: And, uh, you know, here I am now, but I just think. That’s really special. And it’s so nice that now people can see me and other people, um, you know, in a commercial or on a billboard and think like, okay, wow. Like anything’s possible. I feel like, you know, I could do that. Cause I definitely did not feel like I could do that.

[00:20:23] Pritika: yeah. Nice. And I think with proc, um, people are very excited about it. Not only for the diversity, I mean, because of the diversity aspect, like of the brand and how we’re bringing Indian beauty to the forefront of the beauty industry, um, people are just excited that I’ve actually taken that step that I’ve taken that step, you know, to being an entrepreneur.

[00:20:47] Pritika: And, uh, I think a lot of people sometimes just want to get inspired, you know, get inspired by someone else’s fire. You know, by the fact that someone else is starting a beauty company or, you know, traveling the world and going, you know, for different shoots or going for different missions. I think. People, you know, they don’t, they don’t look at a life like mine and, and, uh, think like, oh, well, you know, someone’s doing that.

[00:21:12] Pritika: And they’re, they’re not discouraged by it. Like that can’t be me. Like, they’re like excited and they’re like, okay, that can be me. Yeah. And, and I guess the point is like always, always being a role model for other people and just, you know, holding yourself to those standards that people may not wanna hold themselves too, but you have to, because people do look at what you’re doing and you want them to.

[00:21:32] Pritika: Uh, positive emotions, you

[00:21:34] Jesse: know? Well, I guess speaking of beauty, if we don’t mind, we can dive maybe a little bit further into it. Um, what’s your opinion on where things stand for? How people think of, um, beauty and people, minorities in the fashion industry. Um, Holistically. And maybe I can, I I’m really bad at like shorting my explanation.

[00:21:56] Jesse: So I’ll try to explain what it is. So like, I feel like for the majority of people, let’s just say the Caucasian majority, the whole idea of being represented is very saturated now to the point where the ideal picture of beauty has shifted, like over the past couple of years, I’ve seen these things like norm core.

[00:22:16] Jesse: Dad bod. It’s like not, it’s not your traditional like view of beauty. And, and I love it because it’s a huge, uh, wide gamut of things that people can really look at and feel connected to mm-hmm . But I don’t necessarily see that for minorities in the fashion community or different trends, featuring minority people that are not like you are very like exceptionally lovely looking people.

[00:22:40] Jesse: So I wanted to hear from you. Since you have been in the industry, what your opinion of that is. And like, if you feel like that’s shifting,

[00:22:48] Pritika: so are we okay? I just wanna clarify what we’re talking about. Yes. So are we talking about like diversity within the diff the different, uh, I guess ways that ethnic people are represented?

[00:22:59] Pritika: Yes. So for example, like you’ll have maybe a plus size model. Yes. You’ll have someone that has discolored skin. Okay. Yes, exactly. Okay. Yeah. So I think there’s a long way to go. . I, I, I think everyone would, would agree with me on that, on that, uh, topic. Mm-hmm um, I think that we’ve come a long way as far as representing different, for example, India, you know, people look so different in India from the south to the north and, you know, the Northeast is like the unknown, like a lot of people ha are so mixed up there and it’s so beautiful.

[00:23:32] Pritika: Um, but I think like, so that was kind of one step is like, you know, understanding the diversity within each, you know, country and within, within each culture. And then, um, I think, I mean, I’m just speaking about right now, like the New York market, I could speak very differently about the Indian market. Sure.

[00:23:48] Pritika: Or there’s so many global markets and they’re all, they all look at, uh, diversity in such a different way. And you know, I just did this trip to Paris Milan and then London and it just, every single market is so, so different. Um, so just speaking about the New York market, I think that, um, maybe we haven’t touched on.

[00:24:09] Pritika: Diversity in that manner. So talking about like more like plus size discolored, you know, discoloration, um, even like just different features that you can have. I think it’s getting to that point and people are open to it. So I would say people are very open to it and they’re excited about individuals that come to the table with something completely different something very interesting.

[00:24:33] Pritika: And I think it’s much more about who you are now. Uh, before and they didn’t care who you were, they didn’t care about your name. They didn’t care who you were, what you liked. They didn’t even know, want to hear you talk. It was just like, I mean, I, I had agents tell me, like, don’t talk. Wow. Like don’t, don’t talk at castings.

[00:24:48] Pritika: You’re way too, you know, you’re way too polite. You’re way too, uh, polished or, um, you know, green, like I would talk a lot because I’m, you know, I’m a happy person and, um,

[00:25:00] Angela: be less happy. Oh my

[00:25:01] Pritika: God please. Yeah. I mean, it was really like that. Like you, you know, you’re not cool. Like basically, like they, they wouldn’t say I wasn’t cool, but it was.

[00:25:10] Pritika: Almost implying, like I wasn’t cool. So like, I should just kind of let my look, do its thing and just not wow. Talk, but, uh, people are super open and excited about everything that makes everyone different now, which is really cool. I think that was, uh, that was something that started happening, I think, in the last year.

[00:25:32] Pritika: So. It may not really be out there yet when it comes to the different ethnicities that are being represented now in fashion, it may not be like out there, out there, but it’s happening and people are excited about it and ready for it. So I think it’s a step in the right direction, but it’s not quite there.

[00:25:48] Pritika: And I think there’s always room for growth. So just like we, you know, if you’re talking about just the Caucasian pool, uh, there has been a lot of, I guess, progress. On that front. And, um, I think that’s coming very soon.

[00:26:07] Angela: Hey, everyone, we love doing this podcast and if you enjoy our episodes, we would really appreciate if you could support us in any number of ways.

[00:26:17] Angela: First is by subscribing to us, rating us and reviewing us on apple podcasts and iTunes. Second is by telling a friend third is following us on Instagram at where are you from pod. Fourth is supporting us on Mia coffee. You can find out more about all of these by visiting our Instagram’s Lincoln bio. And again, our handle is at where are you from pod?

[00:26:42] Angela: Thank you. A totally different topic, but kind of some parallels here is we were just talking about squid game the other day because of kind of the hopefulness that having more like multicultural, multilingual content out there has

[00:26:58] Jesse: more. Have you watched it though?

[00:27:00] Pritika: Cuz we don’t wanna spoil. I watched it.

[00:27:02] Angela: Okay. Yeah. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna to. Okay. I already did.

[00:27:04] Pritika: I lost it. like in one night I watched it in one night. Oh my God. The whole season. Did you just have nightmares all night? um, I don’t think I had nightmares I, I wasn’t like, so is it weird that I wasn’t so deeply disturbed the first episode disturbed me and then I was like, okay, now I know what I’m in it.

[00:27:22] Pritika: Like I’m in this for, and like, I know what is gonna happen. And I think, I didn’t know that it was gonna be so violent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wasn’t expecting that. I don’t think

[00:27:33] Angela: any of us were, but yes, as someone who watched a lot of what I deem fucked up shit, I also wasn’t as disturbed as I think most people, but anyways, so not talking about flat, we were talking about, um, just the fact that like a, you know, foreign content is now being so globalized.

[00:27:51] Angela: Thanks to things like Netflix. We were speculating on the hopefulness of. Being more normal for like a predominantly English speaking audience to now want to consume different content from all different language based, you know, producing companies. So, um, when we were talking about that, I think we also were more realistic as well.

[00:28:13] Angela: Um, which is like, you know, baby steps, right? Like it’s headed in the right direction, but it’s gonna take some time, but we’re seeing some progress here and. You know, we gotta just like celebrate the baby steps because they’re, they’ll keep piling on. So I bring it up because I’m seeing parallels with what you just said of like, you know, our time is not yet there from a total diversity standpoint of all different shape sizes, like representations, but it sounds like it is coming.

[00:28:43] Angela: It’s just a matter of time.

[00:28:45] Pritika: Yeah. I, I would agree with that. I. . I mean, I can’t believe like squid game was like, I mean, EV everyone was talking mm-hmm and they, they still are talking about it, but when it just like hit Netflix and the fact that it’s like, not even in English mm-hmm and everyone was like hooked onto it.

[00:29:00] Pritika: I thought that was really exciting. And I think also people are like, for example, like I did so much research, um, You know, talk about the Indian market, just about, um, the different like Asian markets when I was, uh, first developing the company and. Thinking about the west and thinking about the Western, like the typical Western individual, they just are so much more open and excited about different cultures and learning about, uh, whether that’s like food or, um, just the way someone gets married, you know, like all the shows, the match, making sure.

[00:29:37] Pritika: Oh yeah. Weddings and all of that. That’s like all on Netflix. I think people are so much more open and excited and comfortable and, um, You know, and it, and it’s not as, uh, it’s not as, I guess I don’t wanna say scary, but it’s not as scary to them. You know, it’s not as scary, like the unknown, um, which is really cool.

[00:29:56] Pritika: So I think, you know, to, to what you were saying, like, we’re gonna see a lot more of that and I think there’s gonna be some great shows, like coming out of India, coming out of different parts of Asia, even like Europe. I just think that it’s, it’s very exciting. Um, the people are, I guess this openness is now like contagious yeah.

[00:30:14] Pritika: Across America, across like the UK. And, um, I mean, I think it’s, it’s always, it’s always been like slowly inching forward, but, uh, I think now, like squid games just really like showed us that.

[00:30:27] Angela: And we were talking about like with squid game, but also with like K-pop and K drama really, really exploding in the last few years.

[00:30:35] Angela: Right. Like how. It is opening the floodgate for like, you know, acceptance and interest in just like global content in general. Um, I’m curious if you, when you were, you know, doing your research for starting procte and you mentioned that the Indian beauty space is less developed. I’m wondering if K beauty had any, like how deeply you looked into that.

[00:30:58] Angela: If. Had any inspiration for you or like takeaways that you integrated? Just because obviously that like completely is like its own thing, that it has exploded to a different degree in the last, you know, five, 10 years. So how much was that part of like, you know, your research and anything that you thought about putting into pro property?

[00:31:18] Angela: If any?

[00:31:20] Pritika: Yeah, I mean, it definitely was something I came across K beauty, J beauty, like, I mean, I. Yeah. I just think that when I was looking at Indian beauty, I was like, well, why has an Indian beauty developed to that scale where Indian beauty can resonate with like the Western consumer what’s, you know, what’s that disconnect and, you know, with K beauty and J beauty, I wasn’t super familiar, um, with either of those types of beauty.

[00:31:44] Pritika: I mean, I obviously. I have a good understanding of beauty because of my career, but I just, you know, I didn’t know everything about every product and how it made that, how these beauty products and these beauty practices kind of made that jump in that transition. Um, and when I was looking at pro I was like, you know, why hasn’t there been an Indian inspired beauty brand to reach global scale?

[00:32:05] Pritika: Like, where is that disconnect? Like what, what, what hurdle do we need to jump through? Just like, you know, these different KBD companies and JB companies had to do in the past. Like what did, what do we have to do? Um, and I think the biggest thing is accessibility. It’s making sure that, you know, the brand is access accessible.

[00:32:27] Pritika: Something like Iveta, uh, has been around for a long, long time. Thousands of years. Yeah. But it’s just, it’s the way that you message and the. to be relatable and it sounds really simple, but I think that Indian beauty and Iveta, you know, up till, I guess the last year. It wasn’t really so relatable and understandable and accessible.

[00:32:52] Pritika: Um, I really wanted proc, um, from the very beginning to be accessible in every way, like price points, but also with how we communicate with our audience and how we bring Indian beauty into like, I guess today, like into like, I guess you could say the modern world and not to say that Indian beauty is in modern, but it just didn’t really T.

[00:33:16] Pritika: It didn’t necessarily translate, um, for like the modern woman. So it’s, I kind of looked at it from a different perspective where like I knew Indian beauty deserved, uh, a seat at the table, as they say, just like, Hey beauty and Jay beauty. Um, and French beauty. I mean, it goes on. Yeah. But I knew that that was where Indian beauty needed to be, but that’s why I approached it with this hybrid concept, which is kind of derived, uh, from my own hybrid.

[00:33:43] Pritika: Actually, what was interesting is at the time, I didn’t realize that this like hybrid concept was going to be so important because I mean, I knew that it hadn’t been done before, but I guess the more and more I built the brand and the products and the packaging and the philosophy and all that stuff, I realized that.

[00:34:02] Pritika: It’s actually a reflection of who we are today because we’re hybrids of different cultures and heritage, and, you know, we’re so multidimensional, we have different interests and passions and goals. And so, uh, that’s really been exciting for me because that wasn’t the, like from that wasn’t the intention from the very, very beginning.

[00:34:21] Pritika: But the fact that it’s resonated with so many different types of people, because like pro beauty, isn’t like just, it’s not a brand for Indian people. It’s a brand. Everyone. Yeah. And so when I talk about diversity, I talk about diversity across the board. And I think that people can go very much like, okay, well, this brand is only for, you know, darker skin tones, brown, you know, black, et cetera, but that’s not, that’s not true diversity.

[00:34:46] Pritika: Um, and if we’re gonna move forward, we’ve gotta do it the right way, which is, you know, completely inclusive.

[00:34:55] Angela: I do wonder what that you talk about, like the hurdles that K beauty, J beauty, all these other beauties had to overcome to reach the mainstream audience. And you also just talked about like people kind of making assumptions of if a product is only for certain skin type skin tones.

[00:35:11] Angela: I’m curious, but you probably, I don’t know if you know this answer either. I’m just kind of talking out loud, but the K beauty thing, because it really just. Really exploded. I wonder when that initial leap went from people being like, oh, this is for Asian people to like, you know, everyone and their mom, just slapping on a beauty mask from, from some Korean brand.

[00:35:32] Angela: I don’t know when that happened. And like what that shift must have been.

[00:35:36] Pritika: I think it took much longer than people think. Yeah. That it. Uh, I think it was a slow progression, but then it hit a certain point and then it was just like, that was it. Mm. You know, within two years everyone knew about K beauty. Um, yeah.

[00:35:49] Pritika: It takes a lot longer to happen. Yeah. I think with Indian beauty, it’s actually happening pretty quickly, which is exciting. I predicted this a couple years ago, but you know, right now, like Iveta beauty is like the next hot, like hottest beauty. Um, that’s you. I guess out there. And, uh, I, I originally thought about this like four years ago, but then, you know, we started the company a couple years ago.

[00:36:15] Pritika: Um, you know, a little over two years ago, I think. Yeah. It, it doesn’t just happen overnight. Um, I think that it took, it took like years and I just think. People became more open to it. Mm-hmm and it’s just like, kind of also a reflection of where we are, like where our mindset, where every mindset is. Like, are you gonna be excited about trying something completely out of your comfort zone of completely different than what you’re used to?

[00:36:44] Pritika: Um, because it’s also like trust, there has to be a lot of trust with a company with your beauty products, whatever you’re using, whether it’s beauty or it’s like the clothes you’re wearing. Um, I think that trust took a little while to build up too. And then once more and more people started using different K beauty products, it just kind of spread like wildfire.

[00:37:06] Pritika: So yeah, it, it doesn’t just happen. And I think trust is a big thing. And I think with Indian beauty too, a lot of it, you know, a lot of it’s homemade, handmade, you know, there are certain things, especially like when I was doing research in India, you can’t, uh, like for the Western consumer, like they didn’t, they didn’t exactly trust products made in India.

[00:37:28] Pritika: Um, because at times there are now actually there are certain like types of certifications and, uh, You know, protocols, you have to follow, but that wasn’t always the case. Mm-hmm . And even people in India are becoming so much more conscious and aware of what they’re putting in their bodies and what they’re using on their face.

[00:37:46] Pritika: And that’s kind of a, that’s like a new trend over there too. It’s not, it hasn’t always been like that. I mean, you know, for years there were like bleaching creams in yes. Or bleaching, like, uh, yeah. Agents in like moisturizers and it’s like a moisturizer, you know, not everyone wants. Do that to themselves, but yeah, uh, I think there was a lack of trust at some point with certain in certain areas.

[00:38:11] Pritika: I don’t, I don’t know for sure in J beauty and K beauty, but I definitely know in I beauty there was that initial lack of trust, you know, with products being made in India and also with handmade, um, with handmade recipes, it can go kind of one way or the other, you know, you have to really know how to make the recipe.

[00:38:29] Pritika: Right. Mm-hmm and you can. More is not better, I guess, in a lot of these in a lot of these recipes. Um, so yeah, I think it just, it’s different for every type of beauty too, because obviously there’s such a, a deep culture and history associated with J beauty and K beauty and I beauty and it’s about honoring and respecting that, but then kind of translating it for a different audience and kind of.

[00:38:55] Pritika: I guess you could say, like I said, making it more accessible.

[00:38:58] Angela: Well, okay. You talked about building trust. Let’s totally switch gears and go towards, uh, an organization that has a lot of trust and that you have a deep relationship with you’re. The actual, the reason that we were talking is because I think it was the team with operation smile that reached out to us about potentially speaking with you.

[00:39:18] Angela: So. You mentioned that you started kind of working with them as a volunteer early on. What was, what’s the reason why you have such a strong affinity with this specific nonprofit? Cuz there are so many out there, right? So many different potential causes that you could advocate for. What is the reason why you chose this one and why it stuck with you for so

[00:39:38] Pritika: long?

[00:39:40] Pritika: Well, I started with them when I was in eighth grade. So excuse me. So I, I mean, I. Saw this video. So I don’t know if you’ve seen their videos, but so it’s like a 32nd video where it talks about just the work that they do and the children’s lives that they touch and the different countries they go to. And like, when you don’t know anything about an organization and you watch this video, like every single time I watch one of the videos, um, from our mission trips, like I’m literally in tears and it’s just so it like hits you, it hits you in such a way cuz you see these children and, and how they’re so grateful and excited and you know, for.

[00:40:18] Pritika: To be alive, but then they go get a surgery, a 45 minute surgery that literally changes their life and allows them to be who they are and their, you know, show their personality. And, um, so I just watched one of those videos when I was like in eighth grade and I joined happy club, which is the student club at north academy.

[00:40:37] Pritika: And, you know, operation small was founded in my hometown. So, and also at north academy that we had the first like student club and, um, You know, at that time, you don’t really think that you can do so much to help out and contribute to, um, you know, a cause like that. But I would like, you know, package the supplies in the back and open their mail.

[00:40:58] Pritika: And like, you know, I’ve been with the organization since like our office in Norfolk, Virginia, which was like, you know, much smaller than where, where we are now. And like, I’m sure, I don’t know if you guys have been to headquarters now, but it’s beautiful. And it’s like to see how the organization has grown and how I’ve grown with it.

[00:41:12] Pritika: And. it’s so wonderful. Um, but you know, the, the cause always resonated with me. And, um, from that very first video and from hearing about the different experiences and reading about like the work that operation smile does, um, I just knew that I wanted to be a part of it. Um, I didn’t, uh, I didn’t really know.

[00:41:35] Pritika: what it was gonna be like to be like on a mission and to experience it cuz when you’re there and you’re talking to the different families and you’re talking to the different patients and on my first mission mission, I was, um, an ambassador, but I also was working as a U voice. And so it was my responsibility to talk to the different families and the different patients and just get an understanding of where.

[00:41:56] Pritika: From what, what they had to do to, you know, find out about operation, smile, what they had to do to get to the mission site. And, you know, there’s, there’s such amazing stories. Um, every mission that I’ve been on, I, I come back and I’m like, oh my God, it just it’s. It’s truly incredible. Um, because we not only, you know, perform like this 45 minute surgery, but it’s like before care, after care, it’s like teaching people how to take care of themselves, whether that’s like, you know, personal hygiene, whether that’s, you know, period care, there’s just so many different areas that we cover that I actually wasn’t aware of from that first, I guess, from that first, um, year that I was involved.

[00:42:38] Pritika: Um, with the organization through happy club, but like over time, like, you know, as each organization builds and, um, tries to encompass more and more areas of, you know, help. So for us, it was like, it was all about like collect conditions. And then, you know, as, as you progress, it’s more about providing safe surgical care.

[00:42:56] Pritika: And that was really exciting too, because I’ve seen. You know, I’ve seen doctors, so I’ve seen doctors like, you know, do a rhinoplasty, like on top of like on top of a cl surgery. And it’s, it’s just so exciting because one thing that I think we take for granted here is, um, you know, access to safe surgical care and yeah, they care medical care, like in general that we need.

[00:43:18] Pritika: Um, which is something that, you know, I come from a family of doctors. So. Like, I’m just, I feel very fortunate, but I think that we’re all really fortunate here because that just doesn’t really exist, um, in a lot of places outside of the us. So, um, I was, I’m, I’ve been really fortunate to like see that, you know, in the different countries that I’ve traveled to in India and Mozambique and, you know, South Africa.

[00:43:41] Pritika: Um, but yeah, it’s just, it continues to build for me, like, like just like pro I could talk about operations, smile for. You know all day. Um,

[00:43:50] Angela: and I think I read somewhere that you also have kind of plans or ambitions for kind of melding your two loves together in some way, right. Operation smile. And procte in the

[00:44:01] Pritika: future.

[00:44:02] Pritika: Yeah. Oh yeah. So op, so we are, so I’m a global ambassador for the organization, but profi is a brand ambassador for the organization. So we are focused on, I mean, as you know, we have a couple give back programs to India, um, and in general, but operation smile just seemed like the natural partner. Um, for us, not only cuz of my involvement, but just because I’ve also been on the ground there and ride poor and I’ve seen, you know, how we plan to expand.

[00:44:31] Pritika: And it’s just, it’s very exciting to partner with operation smile at, at this next stage. So, um, where it’s not just not just, you know, my personal. Involvement and support, but now it’s like at that brand level, and I really hope to grow and expand, um, with the organization. And, you know, I think that it’s all, it’s really all, um, about growing together.

[00:44:54] Pritika: Like, so for me, like, I feel like I’ve grown up with operations. Well, because like operations, small actually gives like students like a platform and a voice. And, um, you know, when you don’t think you can do a lot at that level, but you are able to kind. Kind of, kind of like, I guess you could say build that part of yourself where I don’t really think a lot of organizations do that at like a young age, like in middle school and high school.

[00:45:20] Pritika: So from that level, like I felt like I grew a lot. Um, and now with proc, um, you know, we’ll, they’ll both grow together

[00:45:27] Jesse: too. So this sounds like a good point to transition over to our close, uh, because the questions are related, so, oh my God. Sorry. um, so if you don’t have anything else, uh, we can move forward into the fortune cookie part of.

[00:45:40] Jesse: Part of our pod, because we always like to end on a sweet treat. So our question for you kind of a continuation of the discussion is what are your hopes for PR and, and, uh, what Asian or Indian beauty will look like in the future?

[00:45:57] Pritika: Oh, that’s a good question. so my hope for proc or my hopes for proc, um, are still.

[00:46:06] Pritika: like, I guess you could say they’re still, um, in progress. I think they change every like every week. So that’s a tough question for me to answer. Uh, I think for Asian, Indian beauty, I think that obviously I want pro B to bring Indian beauty to the forefront. And I also like have that representation, not only for, um, D like people, Asian people.

[00:46:31] Pritika: I think that also in the product market, it’s important to have like our rituals and our practices and our ingredients, um, and everything we’re familiar with that needs still. So be out there and needs to be accessible. So I’m really hoping that profi is the beauty brand that does that. And you know, we’re well on our way.

[00:46:50] Pritika: So I think as far as my hopes for broccoli, I just. Like I said to inspire women to fearlessly go about their lives and really, you know, take advantage of every opportunity and really feel confident and comfortable in who they are. Um, and, you know, go that extra mile where it’s like, you can be multidimensional and, you know, you’re the one that determines where you’re going to be.

[00:47:15] Pritika: So I think profi has been built, um, to really show women. that that’s, um, exactly what the focus is. So I would say like, that’s my biggest hope for pro and I think, you know, we’re also like, well on our way there. Um, but you all know, and I’ve spoken about this in so many different interviews too. Like one of the main goals is to really bring that representation to the forefront.

[00:47:40] Pritika: And, um, I’m really excited with what we’ve, you know, accomplished in just a little over two. so we’ll see where we are, um, in the next year or two.

[00:47:53] Angela: Lovely. Awesome. Well, speaking of helping you reach that ambition, um, now is your chance, please let our listeners know, like where can they find proc? What’s the best way for them to keep up with the new products that are gonna come out or where can they find them?

[00:48:10] Angela: Like everything you wanna convey, go for it.

[00:48:15] Pritika: Yeah. So we have our website proxy, beauty.com and our Instagram proxy beauty. So we’ll be dropping new products and new bundles and sets. Um, I mean, pretty regularly every three months. So we just launched our Maha mask, which is a fabulous Pam moisture treatment.

[00:48:33] Pritika: So go check it out and, um, yeah, just keep up with us on Instagram and subscribe on our. Yay.

[00:48:42] Angela: Okay. Well, listeners, if you enjoy this episode, if you have questions about what we’ve discussed, Indian beauty proc Pica’s career, write us in at tell us where you’re from@gmail.com. Um, and we will try to get you some answers and then until then come back next week, because we always have a fresh new episode for you every Friday.

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Lessons in Love from Pandemic Zoom Dating?


[00:00:00] Jesse Lin: Hi everyone. I’m Jesse Lin

[00:00:01] Angela Lin: And I’m Angela Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, But Where Are You Really From? I’m super excited cause I have one of my good friends from business school, Michael, on the show. Hello!

[00:00:14] Michael Cheng: Hello, hello!? Yeah, my name’s Michael.


Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)


[00:00:16] Michael Cheng: I met Angela in business school in Chicago. Uh, currently I live in LA and have been here for the past two years just before, uh, the quarantine, um, where I’m really from, uh, as I grew up in Florida. Uh, but, uh, my dad is Taiwanese and my mom is Burmese.

[00:00:35] Angela Lin: Well, you mentioned the quarantine is highly relevant to the conversation that we’re going to have today.

[00:00:41] Angela Lin: Uh, because Jesse and I are hyper curious about what dating was like during the pandemic. Um, in the past, we’ve definitely talked about dating and relationships on the show before in like many different facets, but this is one where we were like, well, we can’t have a perspective on it ourselves. I think I had many conversations, like casual conversations with friends who kind of mentioned some of the quirkiness of doing it via Zoom, essentially, largely.

[00:01:16] Angela Lin: Um, so wanted to take today to talk about kind of like comparing and contrasting Zoom dating with IRL dating. So, um, I’d love to hear, I mean, it’s so, so bizarre of a concept to me to begin with, but like, I’m sure we can get into a whole slew of like ways it sucked, but are there any like surprisingly positive things that came out of Zoom dating versus like a IRL date?

[00:01:50] Michael Cheng: Uh, yeah, I mean, one, I mean, this is just like, you don’t, you can only be, you only have to dress up from the top half, which was a little bit nice. Um, but no, I mean, I’d say like, it was an interesting experience because it felt a little bit more loose and casual when you were going in. Cause, um, you know, after you got used to it and got over a little bit of the weirdness, um, it was really just kind of more of a conversation.

[00:02:16] Michael Cheng: You realize it’s no different than talking on FaceTime or Zoom with your friends. Um, and so, you know, I think that kind of took away some of the pressure in the moment and it also just kind of felt more like a, hey, this feels like more of an opportunity just to get to know someone in a pretty loose setting, not in a bar where it’s really loud and you’re having to order drinks and think about all the other extraneous stuff, but you’re really already in a really comfortable space. Like I was on my couch or, um, you know, sitting on my dining room table or things like that. Um, and so it kind of took some of the edge off. Um, so that part was, was, uh, was a pretty surprising thing. Cause I think, you know, going in quarantine, like for me personally, I was never a big FaceTime or Zoom type person.

[00:03:05] Michael Cheng: And I think, you know, we all kind of learned how to do that type of like virtual interaction really quickly. And so, you know, admittedly like the first, the first time it was super weird, you know, just a), there’s just so much, so many things going on, but just. Both sides. Like we just didn’t know how to handle it.

[00:03:26] Michael Cheng: Right? So I think once we realized it was like, oh, this is awkward for any of us, both of us, this is a weird, you know, situation. Let’s just kind of embrace it. It just became a much more kind of normal conversation. Once we got over that hurdle.

[00:03:40] Angela Lin: That’s awesome. Do you feel like, um, without you mentioned, like, usually there’s a lot of distractions with a lot of other things to kind of factor in.

[00:03:50] Angela Lin: Do you feel like you paid more attention to what the other person’s saying then? Because I feel like sometimes when I’m on, when I used to date and I was on like first dates and like you said, in bars and stuff, there’s like so much to think about of like I dunno for me I care a lot about what other people think about me.

[00:04:06] Angela Lin: So I’m like, oh, do I look cute right now? Like, what’s, you know, like, oh, is he judging what I ordered for my drink? You know? Like things like that versus maybe they’re talking to me and like telling me something about their life while I’m thinking all these things and like not actually listening. Did you feel like you were like, oh actually this is like the most focused I’ve been on a date or are you usually a much better listener than that?

[00:04:31] Michael Cheng: No, I think, I think it definitely like made, uh, made it easier to like really hear and listen to the conversation. Uh, it definitely made like awkward pauses that much more awkward because when you’re in a bar setting, you can kind of like find things to talk about around the bar or you have noise around to kind of fill the air.

[00:04:51] Michael Cheng: Um, so I will say like, you know, kind of in some of the, the, the virtual dates that I had. You kind of get to the point where, you know, whether it’s going to be a good conversation or not like a little bit faster, because if that dead air is happening in the first five minutes, you’re kind of both sides is like, ah, this is, this is going to be a little bit of a weird, a weird, you know, a weird 30 minutes, you know, and let’s see what, you know, just, you know, it’s kind of just getting off on the wrong foot a little bit.

[00:05:19] Michael Cheng: Um, so yeah, it was, uh, I will say. It, you know, obviously it’s, it’s mixed, right? Some of them were really great conversations and then the other ones, it was just more like, you know, it almost, it kind of accentuates what what’s going to go good or bad. And, uh, in the IRL setting, when you’re doing an activity or at a bar, um, it kind of gets to that point much faster.

[00:05:44] Jesse Lin: So some foundational questions for my better knowledge and understanding of your situation. When did you, like, when were you like officially in lockdown? Cause I know people were in different stages at different times.

[00:05:55] Michael Cheng: Yeah. So, uh, in LA we went into lockdown probably mid March, mid to late March.

[00:06:01] Jesse Lin: Okay.

[00:06:01] Michael Cheng: Um, and so like, yeah.

[00:06:03] Michael Cheng: Yeah. So it was really like April and April and may were really like hunker down. We didn’t know what was going on. Um, really avoided going outside and even going shopping. Right? It was the toilet paper run and hoard everything. Um, so yeah, exactly. Uh, which, you know, I think. It was, so that means it started pretty early for me.

[00:06:28] Michael Cheng: Um, so like right off the bat, it just felt like very much like, okay, this is, this is going to be a little bit of a, a journey.

[00:06:36] Angela Lin: When did you move to LA again?

[00:06:38] Michael Cheng: I moved in November, 2019. Uh, so I got maybe two or three good months, uh, in LA, uh, before things really locked down and shut down. So. You know, on the one hand, at least I had a little bit of time to get to know the city, but it’s definitely been, uh, I still feel quite new even though I’ve been here for two years.

[00:07:02] Jesse Lin: So how long after lock down, went into effect where you like, I can no longer hold out. I must see another human being or I will go crazy.

[00:07:11] Michael Cheng: Yeah, I’m trying to, that’s a good question. I’m trying to think back. Cause it’s been so long, but I’d say like a month in is where I think at least it felt like, okay, we can be outside.

[00:07:24] Michael Cheng: Um, and that’s when I first would, you know, reach out to my close circle of friends and say, let’s go on a hike. And I remember when we went on a hike, it was very much like we need to be six feet apart still though. And it still felt very much like a. Like a weird social setting where we weren’t quite hanging out together.

[00:07:45] Michael Cheng: We were just at least within each other’s presence. And then, you know, I think kind of around that same time was when I was like, all right, well maybe, you know, the, the virtual dating thing is something that, you know, I’ll, I’ll give a try or, hey, you know, like, uh, you know, I just wanted to interact with some new people and that felt like at that point a month and was like, all right, let’s, let’s try it out and see what happen.

[00:08:10] Jesse Lin: And just out of curiosity, which app did you go to first or did you use an app or did you find dates another way?

[00:08:17] Michael Cheng: No, uh, definitely, definitely the apps. Uh, I think it was like mostly Hinge, maybe a little bit of Bumble. Um, those two mainly. Um, and you know, I remember like back in April, there was so much time, so it was just like you know, just, you know, when it’s sitting on the couch watching Netflix or something and it’s just be swiping and then see what happens.

[00:08:41] Jesse Lin: Cool foundation set for me. Perfect. Excellent. Um, I’m wondering during this time, because you do have, like, you have more need to connect with people and you have like tons of options through the apps.

[00:08:54] Jesse Lin: Did you find that you were going on dates with people you normally probably would not have?

[00:09:00] Michael Cheng: Yeah, I think that was one of the interesting things, especially during quarantine, but also for me personally, being in a new city. Right? Um, so it definitely was more like a, hey, you know, maybe not sure whether I would typically, you know, interact or, or go on a date with this person.

[00:09:21] Michael Cheng: But, you know, when it’s a FaceTime and you know, there isn’t as much planning involved and the bar’s a little bit lower in terms of what you have to prepare and all that. Um, you know, it just made it a little bit more open to, to talking to maybe, you know, some people that I wouldn’t have in the past. Uh, sometimes it was great.

[00:09:41] Michael Cheng: Sometimes it was definitely like, uh, nope, that just kind of reaffirms like kind of like my, my, my, you know, my tastes and everything like that. But, um, it was definitely, uh, you know, an opportunity to kind of talk to folks that I didn’t have a chance to really talk to before.

[00:10:01] Jesse Lin: Nice. That’s interesting. I was just thinking like, based off of, cause you kind of said like 30 minutes and then Angela was saying like, what people think about you?

[00:10:10] Jesse Lin: Did you feel like you were more loose in the Zoom dates because there’s less of a like social pressure? It’s kind of just like, okay, well, like if I never see them again, that’s cool. But if I was in a bar it could be like weird because there are people watching if it doesn’t end up going well.

[00:10:31] Michael Cheng: Yeah, I’d say it was really weird.

[00:10:34] Michael Cheng: I mean, obviously even when I was doing the FaceTime, I would have at least a drink. Cause, cause it’s kind of weird to just sit there talking and you know, typically, you know, we were both have like a glass of wine or something like that. Um, and so, you know, I think you’re right. As I mentioned before, like, when you don’t have all this external stuff happening around you, um, it really did kind of take some of the pressure off, um, and made it easier to have good conversation if the conversation was there.

[00:11:09] Michael Cheng: Um, I think that’s where it was kind of like, hey, if there’s clearly not a connection, um, then it would be a bit, uh, you know, it just felt a little bit more awkward in that moment. Um, because you really didn’t have anywhere else to go or, you know, nothing to kind of, um, you know, distract or try to lead the conversation somewhere.

[00:11:33] Jesse Lin: That’s interesting. So you feel like the Zoom dating was it’s the way that you’re describing it makes me almost think of it kind of like speed dating. Whereas like in a real date you might have, you might start out like slow and you’re like, oh, I don’t know if I like this, but because you’re like committed to being that in that space, it might turn out well, like you give the person more time, but in the Zoom thing, you’re kind of just like five minutes, five minutes.

[00:11:57] Michael Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was never, it never felt like there was like a timer on, on, you know, when I was on a Zoom date, but it definitely was just like, all right, like five minutes in, you just get a better sense of like, is this, is this there’s this there’s something here? Or, or, or, you know, is this going to be something where we found something to talk about?

[00:12:18] Michael Cheng: Right. Because it didn’t otherwise, it felt super forced. Um, and then it just gets kind of weird and then you’re on both sides. So you can just kind of tell us, all right, how does this end? And, um, and then, but I will say like on the, on the FaceTime thing, it’s like, you just kind of click the end call button and it’s, and it’s done.

[00:12:40] Michael Cheng: So, uh, th there’s that little bit of an advantage to when, uh, when it was more the, the, the Zoom dating or the virtual dating.

[00:12:48] Angela Lin: Going back to the idea of connections. So my question is about kind of like how you balance things like physical attraction in terms of one like you mentioned, you went on some dates with people you’d normally wouldn’t have, does that include people that like, you know, maybe you had like a certain physical attractiveness type before, and this time you’re like, oh, well now I know conversations were interesting, like more important.

[00:13:17] Angela Lin: So you’re like scanning for the profile for more like, I dunno, quote unquote, interesting people. Um, versus someone who just physically looks like your usual type. And then also, how did you gauge physical attraction on the call? Because I feel like even though we talked about, there’s a lot of downside with like distractions and whatnot in a bar setting or whatever, there is a lot of, kind of like body language. And like, there’s something you can’t really like you know, convey with like, words, what that thing is. But like, you can kind of tell when you’re IRL with someone, if there is that connection that the screen takes away a little bit of. So how did you like navigate that and balance that kind of importance, I guess, of that element?

[00:14:06] Michael Cheng: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, at the beginning it was still kind of staying within the same kind of physical attraction lane that I was used to. And then kind of more like to your latter point point you had, it’s more like, oh, this person has an interesting background or they have an interesting job, but I’ve never really, you know, connected with before or would have not really seen myself, you know, uh, you know, having a, a date with, um, but then, you know, over time, I think, you know, just by having really interesting dates and good experiences, it was like, okay, like maybe expand the horizons even more. Um, but you’re right. I think to your second question you’re right. That is something that you miss out on, um, versus in real life, is it, you know, kind of interacting through a screen is very limiting when it comes to like just the overall physical connection, um, because you kind of miss out on a lot of those cues or, you know, you know, listening to, to a conversation through a speaker, it kind of removes some of the, the intimacy and the, and the, and the connection there. Um, but so, you know, that’s why it was even more like about the conversation itself.

[00:15:22] Michael Cheng: Um, then, you know, you know, but even though like, you know, usually on a date that physical attraction is like very important. It’s just not really as, um, easy to, to gauge, um, when you’re, when you’re doing it over Facetime.

[00:15:39] Angela Lin: So at what point, cause you mentioned like, you know, in the beginning we all thought we were going to die. Essentially. We all thought there was contagion in real life. Right? Like that’s what it felt like. So at what point were you like mm, I feel safe enough to like have an, I dunno, an outdoor, like a park date or something with someone and shift this off Zoom?

[00:16:01] Angela Lin: Well, it’s like oh, I’ve talked to this person enough times on Zoom. I actually want to meet them in real life. Or were you just like, I need humans and just like start doing first dates, even outdoor? Like what point was up for you?

[00:16:13] Michael Cheng: Yeah, I’d say by like the summer, I think after a few, like maybe two or three Zoom chats, you know, at that point it’s like, okay, well, you know, clearly there’s a connection and we enjoy talking to each other.

[00:16:29] Michael Cheng: At that point, things felt less, um, you know, less scary. Um, and I think for me personally, also, like I had been going and meeting up with friends more often. I think people also just started to hang out with friends more. Um, so it felt like a natural extension to suggest a date with someone. Um, obviously like the first few times it was very much like, um, you know, let’s go to a park, let’s wear our masks.

[00:16:58] Michael Cheng: Let’s go on a walk. Um, and you know, just basically do the FaceTime experience, but you know, a little bit just while, while walking basically. Um, and so I’d say, yeah, it took a couple months. And then at the point where it was just more like, hey, let’s just where I kind of just like, was like no more FaceTime dating.

[00:17:19] Michael Cheng: I’d say it was once the vaccines came out. Um, probably like this year is when it was like, okay, as long as we were both vaccinated. Um, you know, I was more comfortable meeting up at a, at a bar or a restaurant for the first time at that point.

[00:17:33] Angela Lin: And then related and I’ll relinquish the floor is a, so another one of our friends who I will not name told me about a date and whatever, she was just recounting her date, but she mentioned like they kissed and I was just like so curious about at what point, I think it was like pre vaccine. So it was kind of like, meh, you know, I was curious at the time of like, how do you know, how do you gauge when to like trust someone, I guess, because I mean, someone you’ve been on a few dates with still kind of a stranger, right? And in such a weird climate of like, I don’t know, how and when I might get this thing and like, but I’m attracted to you and I like need social interaction with like all this stuff.

[00:18:22] Angela Lin: Did you have those moments or were you like, no, we’re not till vaccine comes out?

[00:18:28] Michael Cheng: Yeah, no, I’d say like, you know, in the earlier days it felt so, so like, I feel like everybody was. To meet up in person. Like we have to like be on the same page about, you know, social distancing and, you know, being responsible.

[00:18:45] Michael Cheng: I mean, I think at that point, when you’re meeting up in person with somebody, you don’t know that well yet you’re kind of like willing to take that little bit of risk, but there was definitely a feeling of like, hey, you know, like let’s, let’s, you know, again, go to a park first. Uh, let’s just keep our masks on and go on a walk.

[00:19:02] Michael Cheng: Um, you know, and then it becomes a second in person date, third. And, you know, you kind of build that, that, that trust, uh, even though like you’ve only known them for a limited amount of time, like at least at that point, it felt a little bit more comfortable. Um, and then I’d say like, probably towards the end of 2020, I think when everybody was like, all right, kinda kinda over this.

[00:19:22] Michael Cheng: I think some of the, um, some, you know, at that point, maybe not for a, for lack of a better term. It’s not that I wasn’t careful, but it just wasn’t as much of a, hey, like have you, you know, gone to big gatherings or, you know, what are your, you know, are you masking when you go out, it was more of a, you know, like, hey, you seem like, it seems, uh, like we’re both responsible adults and, you know, I feel like I’ve, I’ve trust that, um, you know, no, you know, you kind of have to kind of trust that the other person is on the same page..

[00:19:58] Jesse Lin: Yeah, I definitely not dating wise, but I feel like there’s like a new social contract in place that people have had to negotiate or like learn new, which is like how to hang out with people and like respect people’s boundaries and comfort around like COVID and all that. And at some point it changed from something that was explicit to implicit where you’re just kind of like, okay, like I trust this person is like, thinking about, you know, my situation before they meet, even though maybe they’re not, but yeah.

[00:20:27] Michael Cheng: I mean, I think, you know, like being in LA, you know, uh, or in California in general, there’s just kind of more of an acceptance that people, or an assumption that people are going to be taking the necessary precautions. Um, you know, I know there’s some other places where maybe perhaps, you know, I don’t know how I would feel because he, you don’t necessarily can’t have that as, as strongly when assumption whether that other person is, is, is taking the same precautions.

[00:20:56] Michael Cheng: Um, so I think, you know, as towards the end of 2020, you know, it just felt like, all right, like people kind of have their, their way of doing things. And, um, you know, we’ve kinda gotten used to this a bit by the end of 2020, where it was like, okay, well, it feels like, um, you know, not that we were throwing caution to the wind but you don’t have to like interrogate everybody.

[00:21:19] Jesse Lin: So did you find that you, you know, you, you kind of mentioned during the pandemic, during Zoom dating, you went a little bit outside of like the, the type of person that you wouldn’t normally date. Have you found that that’s something that you’ve taken with you out of that into IRL?

[00:21:33] Jesse Lin: Or are you kind of like, come back to what you’re normally interested in?

[00:21:38] Michael Cheng: Um, I think some, uh, you know, again, it gave you an opportunity to meet new kinds of people and, and, you know, find, you know, uh, you know, very different personalities. On the opposite side it make me, like realize some of the things that I used to be attracted to actually, I, I maybe I I’m not as attracted to that anymore.

[00:22:02] Michael Cheng: Um, and so, you know, I think, you know, the whole pandemic just allowed me to accelerate, I guess, like accelerate some of the changing values that I’ve had and, and, and, and approach to dating. Um, to be more open, to, to new types of people. Um, you know, it’s not like I’ve gone fully to, to new, you know, type, but I definitely am more willing to, to see like, okay like it could be, it could be a fun day let’s let’s uh, let’s give it a try.

[00:22:38] Angela Lin: The real question is, are you dating Asian people now?

[00:22:43] Michael Cheng: Wow, I have, I have, yeah, putting me on the spot. I have, I have gone on quite a few dates with Asian people. Um, I think I just also have realized that’s, uh, in California, there’s, uh, there’s a lot more, so I I’ve just never been in a place where there’s just so – this many, um, you know, Asians around, um, you know, growing up in Florida and living in Chicago, you know, it wasn’t, you know, the as, as, uh, easy to interact and find people that I’m now realizing, oh, we have like very, very similar backgrounds and there is something to that. Um, whereas, you know, in, in other places it was kind of not rare, but, um, it just, it wasn’t as present, uh, for me.

[00:23:33] Michael Cheng: Um, so yeah, I mean, I know, uh, yeah, it definitely expanded in that regard as well.

[00:23:43] Angela Lin: Yeah, it’s funny. So our friend group is like hilariously half Asian, half white. We’re like nine so we’re like technically more than half Asian, I guess. Cause we have like one more Asian person than white person, but uh, we’re we’re like heavily Asian represented in our friend group.

[00:24:02] Angela Lin: Um, but then I remember during business school because yeah, you, you spent a lot of time in Chicago as well. I think we had a few times where you merged your friend groups from like pre-business school. I was like, wow. All of his friends are white.

[00:24:19] Michael Cheng: Yeah. I mean, I know it’s, it’s just one of those things where, you know, when you grow up in a place like Florida, like my, my upbringing was like that show Fresh Off the Boat.

[00:24:29] Michael Cheng: It was just very white suburbia. That’s what I was surrounded by. That’s what I kind of grew up knowing. Um, and so, yeah, I’d say. It’s been quite the cultural, not shock, but just like it’s been, it’s been cool to, to see in LA kind of the diversity and, um, just more of my, you know, being able to see, you know, my culture, um, down main street and things like that.

[00:24:56] Angela Lin: Well, going on a tangent related to that, you said you have like a very loose connection, kind of to Eddie Huang, right? From Fresh Off the Boat, or you had like hung out and smoke, something like that?

[00:25:09] Michael Cheng: I have not hung out with Eddie Huang. I mean, it was Orlando in the nineties.

[00:25:13] Michael Cheng: That’s where he was, that’s what the show’s about. Um, so there are, there weren’t that many Chinese people in the nineties. So in the same kind of Asian associations through Chinese school. Um, we had mutual friends. Uh, yeah, I was actually just talking to my parents about this, uh, over Thanksgiving. They’re like, oh yeah, yeah.

[00:25:32] Michael Cheng: We know who they are. Um, you know, we so-and-so knows them and they tell, you know, them and oh, we heard their son is doing this now and then, you know, the whole typical grapevine thing. Um, so yeah, uh, have a loose, loose connection to Eddie Huang, um, uh,

[00:25:47] Angela Lin: Three degrees away from Eddie Huang situation

[00:25:49] Michael Cheng: I’d say 2, 2, 2.5.

[00:25:52] Jesse Lin: Hmm, when it comes to, I’m going to like flashback to the dating stuff, when it comes to the like Zoom dating, did you feel like, because I remember when I would even like, just meet up with someone new, there’s like a little bit of like nerves, like anxiety, anticipation. Did you find that that was like different on for Zoom, uh, date versus like an IRL date?

[00:26:14] Michael Cheng: Uh, yeah, I’d say it’s the same. Um, there’s a little bit, if anything, it’s even more, uh, just leading into it. Right? Because all of a sudden, you you’re like waiting for the phone to ring or you’re calling them and then all of a sudden their face is on the screen. And so there’s no, that’s just all of a sudden you’re like thrown into it.

[00:26:32] Michael Cheng: Uh, and so yeah, I’d say the nerves are still there. Um, it’s yeah, it’s, uh, it, it was a very, it’s a very interesting thing compared to when you’re doing it in real life, where at least you have like a, the beginning hug and you know, there’s a little bit of small talk. Um, and then you’re usually you know about to do something, but in this case, it’s kind of like, all right, well, this, this has started.

[00:26:59] Michael Cheng: Um, and you know, you just kind of have to dive right in.

[00:27:04] Jesse Lin: This has started. Did you, did you, uh, have a specific way you would present yourself or you use a specific zoom background or something like that?

[00:27:14] Angela Lin: Oh, Zoom background, yeah!

[00:27:16] Michael Cheng: I think I’ve, I think, you know what, to be honest, I think at first it was like very much like, okay.

[00:27:20] Michael Cheng: I gotta make sure my background’s all nice or use a virtual background and then all this kind of stuff. Um, you know, and then I think eventually, I don’t know. I just also feel like people are like, all right, well, this is actually kind of, you don’t need to do all that. You can just kind of be more natural. Um, it was definitely like maybe clean my apartment more that gave me the reason to do that. Um, uh, but yeah, no, I was definitely, uh, at the beginning, if, because again, like this is something I, no one really had done this before. Um, and then I realized as I was going through some of these dates, like I had never really paid attention to what was behind them or anything like that.

[00:28:06] Michael Cheng: Um, you know, because it’s so, um, so much about the conversation that I realized oh, okay. Maybe I don’t, you know, for me personally, um, I just need to make sure, like, you know, at least on my couch and just, uh, uh, you know, have a normal conversation and, and to your original question, like, I don’t know, I didn’t really have any like, openers.

[00:28:27] Michael Cheng: It was just like, hey, how’s it going? Like how’s your day been? Um, again, like to, to my earlier point, it just, the more, you know, as I did more of them, it just felt like you were FaceTiming someone. You know, like your friend, right? So without like the friendship part, but like, at least it was like, Hey, like how’s your day been?

[00:28:46] Michael Cheng: What have you been up to? And then you would kind of go from there.

[00:28:50] Jesse Lin: And has it made your IRL dating game stronger because now you like, I survived Zoom dating, and now I don’t care at all. How, like, not that you don’t care how it goes, but you’re like, you know what, I can do this.

[00:29:02] Michael Cheng: Oh, that’s a good question.

[00:29:05] Michael Cheng: Uh, since I’m still single, I guess you could say. Um, no, I, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. I don’t know if it’s changed anything once it went back to real life dating. Um, I don’t know. I just, it’s just, maybe it’s more subliminal for me, and I haven’t noticed if it’s changed anything. Um, but I think just overall like I don’t know when it started to get back to normal and you would meet up at a bar or anything like that. It was almost like I would, didn’t want to think about the quarantine time and what that whole awkward situation was like.

[00:29:43] Angela Lin: Blocked that out of your memory.

[00:29:45] Michael Cheng: Bit of that. And it’s also just two very different experiences when you’re doing a F – like I wouldn’t approach a date at a restaurant or at a bar the same way that I did on FaceTime.

[00:29:57] Michael Cheng: Right? Because those are two very different, um, you know, settings. Um, did it make me maybe more again, when I was meeting new people that I wouldn’t have gone on a date with before, and maybe less, more open to just, you know, having those conversations about things that I just didn’t really have a lot of familiarity with, or, um, or also for me, like if they, you know, didn’t really have familiarity with, um, you know, myself like opening up a little bit more I think that that helped, um, because it’s, it’s interesting on FaceTime. I did find that you got quicker to opening up in some cases with some people, um, because it’s, you know, to your earlier point, that’ll not so much like speed dating, but just like, because it’s all about the conversation, it got to some deeper things when there was a true connection there.

[00:30:52] Michael Cheng: And that was for me when I realized, oh, there’s, there’s something here. Like, because we would go into topics that I typically wouldn’t be going into on a first date, or necessarily as deeply. But when you’re kind of talking on, on FaceTime, it just felt more natural to do that.

[00:31:11] Jesse Lin: Yeah. I asked that question cause I, I like, I feel like it, when I talked to a bunch of my friends, they’re like, there’s a more Yolo attitude towards it in the sense that they used to think a lot about what the person might judge them on, but now you’ve gone through the whole thing where it’s like, it’s kind of this whole, like, life’s too short thing where, why are you worried about that? Like, if they don’t like you, as you are, as a person would just move on to the next person. So it does sound like there’s a little bit of that where you’re like more, um, you’re more presenting of the things that you normally wouldn’t share to people on a first date.

[00:31:47] Michael Cheng: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that part I totally agree with. Um, you know, I, I think and maybe this is also just, you know, as, as I’m getting older, um, you know, it’s just some of the superficiality. It feels like you kind of get over that a little bit faster, um, because, you know, as I mentioned, like, I kind of enjoyed having those, those types of conversations when there was that connection.

[00:32:13] Michael Cheng: Um, and so now, you know, like when there is the opportunity on the first date, like I’m not as like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t go down that path in this conversation. I’d be more open to, to, you know, you know, seeing where it goes.

[00:32:28] Angela Lin: Once you kind of started transitioning to some IRL dating or like hybrid or whatever.

[00:32:34] Angela Lin: Did you have any like, um, shocks with readjusting the social life? Cause we talked outside of dating. We’ve talked about like, oh, we’re all so awkward now. Cause we’ve like been isolated and only done virtual things for so long. Forgot how to be normal around people. Did you have that at all with the dating?

[00:32:55] Michael Cheng: The first few are like super rough. I mean, it’s already you already thinking like, do I go in for a hug or like, how do I even do that? And then you add in like well, there’s technically a pandemic going on. So is that even like appropriate? Um, yeah, I’d say the first few and just overall. It was just like getting used to being in a social setting like that.

[00:33:16] Michael Cheng: Um, so it was definitely awkward at first. Got, I’d like to think that it’s gotten back to normal for me, where it feels like, um, you know, there isn’t that, that like fear going in that, like, I have lost all my social skills. Uh, You know, I, at least I’d like to think so. Um, but yeah, it definitely was weird just because also I think, again, it is a two way street, always.

[00:33:43] Michael Cheng: So that was the one comforting thing was just like, yeah, this is weird. There was like a little bit of that acknowledgement at the beginning of just like yeah I don’t know, like, do we fist bump? Okay. Then you’d have a good laugh about it. And then, and then go on inside and, and, you know, kind of, you know, have a normal date after that.

[00:33:59] Michael Cheng: So it almost broke the tension a little bit faster because like, there was those acknowledgement that like, hey, I’m getting used to this again too. Um, so you had a little bit more of that, like, uh, leeway a little bit to be awkward, even at the, um, like already kind of an awkward person naturally.

[00:34:19] Angela Lin: Not that awkward.

[00:34:20] Jesse Lin: All right. So we’re going to go onto the Fortune Cookie part of the podcast, because we always like to end on a sweet treat and our prompt for you is to, uh, anonymously share with us your worst Zoom date experience.

[00:34:37] Michael Cheng: Oh, that’s a good one. Uh, yeah, it was one where sometimes it would just happen like right away.

[00:34:44] Michael Cheng: Like I’d be on the app and they’d be like, hey, let’s just FaceTime now. It’s like, whoa. Like, you know, sometimes like, it’s like, all right, like sometimes, you know, you don’t like, no, let’s do this another time. And again, this was like height of pandemic. So sometimes I’m just like, you know what? Fuck it. Let’s try it.

[00:35:02] Michael Cheng: Let’s go for it. Uh, one time the girl was like clearly wasted already. And I didn’t realize going into the call that she was so drunk. Um, and so I get on the FaceTime because she’s like, hey, let’s talk now. I’m like, okay. You know, it’s been a good back and forth on the, on the app I get on. And she is just completely gone.

[00:35:25] Michael Cheng: I’m just like, oh, hey. And she’s like slurring her speech. And you know, she can’t – I don’t understand her. And then like, and then she like just started. She’s like, I got – do you mind if I smoke? Sure. And then she just starts ripping like a bong and I’m just like, okay, at this point for me, I’m just like, I’m just now at this point, I know it’s not going to go anywhere.

[00:35:49] Michael Cheng: I’m like, this is just entertaining at this point. So I just sat, I mean, we had fun cause I mean, I was just, you know kind of just, having a conversation with her as she’s like super drunk and high. And I was like, all right, I guess I’ll have a little bit of a drink. Um, but yeah, she was, I don’t even know if she would have remembered that we had that conversation because clearly I never heard from her ever again.

[00:36:15] Michael Cheng: Um, but that was definitely one of those where I was just like, that was interesting. It was also one of those situations. Like, you know, I went into it being like this isn’t normally the type of person I would go on a date with. That was one of those scenarios. Like, okay. If I run into that again, maybe that it, oh my God.

[00:36:34] Jesse Lin: We have to. We have to hunt her down and get her side of the story.

[00:36:40] Michael Cheng: And the fun, you know what the funny thing is, I think she was like a teacher too. So I was like, whoa, oh

[00:36:48] Jesse Lin: She you know, I think teachers were having a real hard time.

[00:36:52] Angela Lin: That’s true.

[00:36:52] Michael Cheng: So I was like, you know what, you know, at this, you know, I was like, all right, this is what it is.

[00:36:59] Michael Cheng: And you know from what I remember it was a fun conversation. I just knew that she wasn’t like gonna remember most of it.

[00:37:08] Jesse Lin: I just want to know what she thought she was going to get out of it.

[00:37:12] Angela Lin: I’m sure she remembers a little bit because if she, if you never heard from her, I think mortified probably.

[00:37:19] Michael Cheng: That’s true. Probably.

[00:37:21] Michael Cheng: But, I mean, that’s the thing, like when it was like April, May, June, and we didn’t know what was going on and there was nothing to do. I mean, I hate to say it there. Just be times where you’re just like, all right, well, I’m bored. So I’ll just like, go on and then you’d match with somebody and just be like, all right, well, I’ll guess I’ll just talk to this person.

[00:37:38] Michael Cheng: Um, and that’s where you get into situations like I did where the person was blackout. So. That was probably, I wouldn’t say the worst, but just like the most like interesting, the worst ones are the ones where it’s like, clearly like just a lot of dead air and, you know, in the first five minutes, it’s just like, all right, there’s not really a connection here.

[00:38:01] Michael Cheng: And then at like, you know, you’re both kind of like, all right, who’s going to be the one that says, oh, I got to do laundry, gotta go!

[00:38:11] Angela Lin: Got to answer this text message.

[00:38:14] Michael Cheng: Exactly, exactly. Exactly. Um, you know, everybody’s gotta find that out.

[00:38:22] Angela Lin: What’s the shortest Zoom date you’ve had?

[00:38:24] Michael Cheng: Probably about 15 minutes.

[00:38:26] Angela Lin: Oh, if you know, within five and you still let it go for 15 and it’s feels like it’s still kind of yeah,

[00:38:33] Michael Cheng: I know for me sometimes when it gets to that point, I’m just like, all right, well, let’s just like you know, start talking about random stuff. And then, you know, at that point it was like, all right, I think we’ve exhausted all potential options here. I was like my stove, I gotta go. I gotta go cook dinner at 4:30 PM.

[00:38:58] Michael Cheng: Yeah, I, yeah, I will say the, I do not do, there was a point where I was like, oh, I could do this like in normal times I feel like there was like, this is cool. I was like, this is a nice casual way to like meet someone for the first time, get a sense to know them. Maybe I’ll maybe I’ll do this from now on. And once things got back to, I was like, yeah, I’m not going to do that.

[00:39:23] Angela Lin: I feel like it was kind of like, um, forcing millennial and gen Z, but like millennial and younger people to like face the fact that we never like our generation’s not phone people. Right? Like we never talk on the phone, we like text mostly, right? So versus like, my brother is technically he’s at the like highest end of millennial where he’s basically more like the previous generation and he like loves getting on the phone with like new people.

[00:39:55] Angela Lin: And I’m like, how are you on the phone for like one hour or whatever with some random human, but it’s like, okay, we don’t have that kind of habit. And then also add video into it like thats it at this point.

[00:40:08] Michael Cheng: I will say though, because of it, like now I like FaceTiming with my friends so that, you know, that’s one of the positives came out of this.

[00:40:17] Michael Cheng: Um, but yeah, I, I, it was a bit of an adjustment to experience it through a screen like that. Um, you know, but for better or worse, you know, it was just kind of like a sign of the times, like, right. Like this was a weird 2020. And something that some of us had to deal with.

[00:40:39] Angela Lin: Well, we are very grateful that you shared your experiences, including your hilarious black out convo.

[00:40:50] Angela Lin: Thank you for joining.

[00:40:52] Michael Cheng: Awesome. Thanks. Thanks for having me really enjoyed it.

[00:40:55] Jesse Lin: Yeah, of course. Well, listeners, if you have any questions for us or for Michael, or you want to report your own find Zoom date disaster or not disaster? Maybe get a really good Zoom date, let us know, write us in at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com.

[00:41:15] Angela Lin: Or, hey, you heard Michael’s still single. If you’re in the LA area looking for a date, we can hook you up with a Zoom one.

[00:41:25] Michael Cheng: Why do you think I did this?

[00:41:29] Angela Lin: Yeah, son!.

[00:41:30] Michael Cheng: Ok share my Hinge profile.

[00:41:33] Angela Lin: Oh, well, we’ll leave it in the episode notes.

[00:41:41] Angela Lin: Yeah, I like that. Okay. Well, in other news, thanks for listening. And come back next week. We’ll have another episode for you then.

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Is a Silent Meditation Retreat Right for Me?

[00:00:00] Angela Lin: Hey everyone I’m Angela Lin.

[00:00:07] Jesse Lin: And I’m Jesse Lin. And welcome back to another episode of, But Where Are You Really From? This week we’re putting Angela in the hot seat she just returned last week from a 10 day silent meditation retreat. Is that correct? So we want to get all the juicy details of how that experience is. Honestly from my perspective, I was like 10 days, so frightening, but like give us a little bit of background, maybe like, uh, why you decided to go do it and just like set the setting for the listeners.


Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)


[00:00:39] Angela Lin: Yeah. Um, so basically I was kind of like a drag along kind of, um, Ramon has always wanted to do a ten – or not necessarily ten-day, but he’s always wanted to do something like a silent meditation.

[00:00:52] Angela Lin: Um, and I’d always been like, oh, you have fun with that. I’ll like, be on vacation when you do that. Um, and then semi recently, like a few months ago, his friend Craig who lives in the Northeast was like, oh, I’m actually doing it. Like I found a place that’s running it for these dates. I’m doing it. If you guys want to come sign up now.

[00:01:15] Angela Lin: Cause there’s like an application process. And so Ramon was like, oh, I’m definitely doing it. And I was like, meh, I was kinda on the fence. But I think, um, I think between like having to pull the trigger of doing the application and like, um, yeah, there was like a little bit of time between, like, I actually had to make that decision of like I’m putting in my application.

[00:01:40] Angela Lin: And in between that time we had done another uh, guided therapeutic session thing. And I was like, hmm, maybe, maybe it’ll be good for me because it was, you know, all of that stuff is about like self-growth. And I was, um, the last thing I did was a ketamine, uh, session. And there were like moments in that session where I had asked about like, is there further guidance on things like my spirituality, like wanting to further to develop my spirituality or like, more specifics around like working on this podcast, like goals, that kind of stuff.

[00:02:17] Angela Lin: And that session there were for those two questions, I was getting kind of like blanks where it was essentially saying, like, it’s up to you to figure that stuff out. And so I was like, hmm, they’re open-ended questions here. And we happened to have been given this opportunity around the silent meditation thing. Maybe, this is in the cards for me that like, this is the work that I’m supposed to be doing to help me kind of figure it out myself. So that kind of tipped me over the edge. And I was like, fine, let me do it. And I was like, okay, I’ll do it with you. Um, but honestly I had no idea what I was getting myself into and I was not a meditator before.

[00:02:58] Angela Lin: Like I think I had only done like Headspace type things, but not even as frequently as like you do Calm or anything like that. Um, sometimes with my therapist, we do some meditations when I’m like really heated from like something happened at work or like whatever. And I’m like, you need to calm down and she’s like, let’s do a little meditation, but like, I was never, but I was never…

[00:03:23] Jesse Lin: She was like I need a moment, just shh..

[00:03:26] Angela Lin: I need you to to meditate, you know, so, so it was not like I was not practiced in it.

[00:03:33] Angela Lin: And, um, leading up to it, we had like told many people were going to do it. And everyone was asking us, like, how do you feel about it? Ramon was like, oh, I’m so excited. I’m going – it’s going to be like a much needed vacation or like rest, because he’s been really busy with his startup. And I was like, um, I’m just terrified.

[00:03:53] Angela Lin: I don’t know, like that was my response.

[00:03:56] Jesse Lin: Cool. So tell us where, where you actually went and maybe like, give us an understand what was the facility like? I’m like very curious, just like your whole surroundings, what was that like?

[00:04:08] Angela Lin: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s super interesting. I didn’t like none of us had looked up that much about it beforehand. And also I think there is a little bit of like mystery surrounding the nonprofit organization that runs it.

[00:04:23] Angela Lin: Um, I think on purpose because a lot of it has to do with like the experience once you actually get there. Um, but we did it in kind of middle of nowhere, Massachusetts. The town is called Shelburne Falls. Um, it’s like a two hour drive outside of Boston. Um, and so basically the meditation technique that we learned is called Vipassana and the Vipassana Institute or whatever, the like, organization that, um, is behind it around the world.

[00:04:54] Angela Lin: Uh, this Massachusetts location was the first US center outside of India. So, this is like the big one. Like if you were going to do it in the US is like the biggest, most established one. Yeah. Um, so I think it was like serendipitous that we happened to like be at this one. Cause they were like, essentially, this is probably the, like the most legit one you would have gone to if it was in the US um, and so the center is I mean, it’s pretty built out, but like I said, it was like the first one. So they had told us afterwards, they were like, this is like the ideal construction of all the centers, but we were probably one of the only ones that’s like fully constructed. So they have a meditation hall, which is where everyone comes to meditate many times a day.

[00:05:43] Angela Lin: Um, and it’s separated by gender. So it’s like female on the right, male on the left. And then at the front, there are teachers. So like two teachers, one female, one male that sit at the front. Um, and then they are essentially playing recordings from like the real teacher. It sounded kind of janky when I first read it on the website, I was like, we were going to be listening to recordings.

[00:06:11] Angela Lin: Like, what does this mean? Um, and basically there’s this whole history behind it, where I was like, I didn’t know any of this. Um, okay. So Vipassana, this technique was created by buddha like the human Buddha. So like forget the like religion behind, you know, Buddhism or whatever. But it’s like, um, Gautama the, the Buddha from like 2,500 years ago in India, the like actual person who lived, um, he created this meditation technique to end suffering, which sounds like crazy, right. Or like really lofty. Um, but essentially like at its core, it’s all about self-awareness um, so much so that the thesis is like, all of your suffering is caused by yourself. Like not external forces, so you can blame like, oh, I lost my job or whatever. Right. But that’s not really the source of your suffering.

[00:07:09] Angela Lin: It’s that you then kind of like dwell on that fact and like, make yourself feel so much worse that then you’re like in, in misery for like hours and hours and hours. Right. So it’s all around like, how do you become, so self-aware that you’re able to kind of like stop yourself in your tracks and like, not get so wrapped up in your emotions that you cause more suffering for yourself and then others.

[00:07:35] Angela Lin: And the ultimate goal, being that once you have like total control over like your sensations in your body and therefore how you react to things, you would stop essentially like reacting to things and just remain equanamous is the word that they kept using. And I was like, what the F is equanamous. Like, I’ve never heard that word.

[00:07:57] Angela Lin: Um, but essentially it’s like balanced. So it’s exactly what Sandeepa was telling us in that episode we did with her, which is like happy things, don’t make you so high and sad things don’t make you so low. You’re just kind of like in this like middle band, I was like, is Sandeepa a, Buddha reincarnated. I don’t know maybe, but anyways, so it’s like, that’s your like goal is to be equanamous.

[00:08:20] Angela Lin: And that is like, quote unquote, what enlightenment actually is like you’re liberated from suffering. Doesn’t mean you go to heaven or whatever. It’s like heaven within yourself. Because you’ve achieved, like true peace. So anyways, so Buddha invented this thing 2,500 years ago in India, but, and then he taught it to many people, um, and it spread to like neighboring countries, but as after he passed away and like, as the tradition kept getting taught, it kept getting mixed with other meditation techniques and other religions popped up.

[00:08:55] Angela Lin: And then they started to try to like add things that weren’t part of their original technique. So it was lost like, the original pure technique was lost from India for a long time. And one of the only countries that like kept the technique perfect was Burma, AKA Myanmar um, and they had passed it like all the way down to recent times perfectly, but it was always taught in Burmese.

[00:09:19] Angela Lin: So you had to be like essentially a Burmese monk to ever learn this technique until then in like early 1900s, there was one Burmese teacher of it who started teaching it in English so that other people could actually learn it. Um, and he taught it to this guy who is of Indian – like ethnically Indian, but grew up in Burma.

[00:09:43] Angela Lin: At the time Burma, um, and that guy’s name is Goenka. And so Goenka is the one who spread Vipassana to the whole world as the modern world, as we now know it. So those recordings that you’re listening to are from Goenka, this Indian dude from Burma, um teaching it in English. But he already passed away.

[00:10:06] Angela Lin: So he passed away in 2013, which is why they play the recordings that you can still learn it from like him directly. Um, and it’s actually like a, not as lame as it sounds like when I first heard that I was like, so we’re going to be watching like VHS tapes or something like in the front of the classroom, like, what does this mean?

[00:10:24] Angela Lin: But basically every center has like really hooked up audio visual. So like, mostly it’s audio that you’re listening to. He’s like telling you the instructions and like chanting and like leading the meditations, but they have like really good speaker surround sound type stuff. So it’s kind of sounds like he’s like in the room with you doing it.

[00:10:45] Angela Lin: Yeah. So. It was pretty dope. Um, so yeah, there’s the meditation hall, which is like every day, there are certain hours where everyone has to be in there. The rest of the time you either can meditate in there or you can go back to your room, um, to do like your own, you know personal space meditation or, um, the latter half of the week, once you’ve like trained up a little bit, there was a pagoda.

[00:11:13] Angela Lin: Um, that’s like in the Burmese style, which like temple Burmese, pagoda style. Pretty beautiful. But, uh, functionally inside, they have like solo meditation rooms for each person. So you can like turn off the light and it’s like blackout, essentially. It’s like sensory deprivation. Um, so you could either meditate in the hall in that cell or in your, uh, room for the like non-group times.

[00:11:42] Angela Lin: So yeah, the center is the hall, your sleeping quarters and that pagoda, um, and dining room, but th that’s it.

[00:11:51] Jesse Lin: Are you doing like anything else? Like outside of meditation?

[00:11:55] Angela Lin: Dude not really. Um, so it was really intense. The schedule was really intense. Um, so you wake up at four. The wake up bell is at 4:00 AM. Um, they’ll ring another one at 4:20 to make sure you’re awake.

[00:12:09] Angela Lin: And then your first meditation starts at 4:30 and then you meditate till 6:30 and then you get to have breakfast. From 6:30 to 8:00. Um, and then your only other breaks are lunch, which is 11:00 AM to 1:00 PM. And then.

[00:12:31] Angela Lin: Uh, like what do you get anywhere and then sleep. And then you get to sleep at like 9:00, 9:15. Um, so the only thing you’re doing outside of meditating and eating is during those times, like once you finish eating, everyone just like runs outside because you are inside all day. So it’s like, they have really nice, um, walking paths like behind, you know, outside. So you’re allowed to walk, but you’re – there’s so many rules, like you’re not allowed to exercise or like, you can’t do yoga. You can’t like do pushups. You can’t do like other stuff. The only thing you can do is walk. So everyone’s walking like the whole hour, because they’re just like, I need fresh air.

[00:13:15] Angela Lin: I need to like stimulate my brain. I need to like, you know, do something other than sit and meditate. Um, so that’s the only thing you’re doing besides eating and meditating.

[00:13:28] Jesse Lin: Wow. Okay. So then I have to ask the million dollar question upfront. Like how do you not talk to people when you’re like eating or like walking next to them or like all that.

[00:13:39] Angela Lin: So it’s actually super interesting because I think when everyone hears the term silent meditation retreat, the thing you think of is like, oh, it must be so hard not to talk, but actually the not talking part is like the easiest part of the whole retreat.

[00:13:54] Angela Lin: It’s not that hard. Um, because also they prime you upfront of like, this these 10 days is for you. It’s for self – it’s for introspection, it’s for you to like gain the awareness of yourself. And by speaking to other people and by like making eye contact and you’re not supposed to make eye contact either.

[00:14:14] Angela Lin: Um, so by like, um, sharing energy, essentially with other people, you are doing a disservice to yourself and to the other person, because the whole point is to like, be able to focus so much on yourself and the sensations in your body that if you talk to someone or like, make eye contact or whatever your brain is like latching onto anything it can possibly latch on to, to not have to think about what’s going on in your body.

[00:14:44] Angela Lin: That then like, if you literally just have like one sentence of like, oh, how was your meditation going? And someone’s like oh, I’m feeling like XYZ, then all of a sudden your brain is going to like what? I want to feel that. And like, you’re just like, then in this like tornado of thoughts about stuff, which is not the point.

[00:15:02] Angela Lin: So it’s actually very easy not to talk. Um, the hard part is like actually doing the meditating and something that like no one talks about, which we debriefed about afterwards is like, it’s physically extremely difficult. Like yes, mentally and emotionally it is difficult, but nobody talks about the physical aspect for some reason.

[00:15:25] Angela Lin: So like sitting cross-legged, which is the way most people do it is really hard, especially if you have tight hips. So I have really tight hips and it’s confusing because, um, the only times you’re allowed to talk are you can talk to the teachers that are up front. If you have like, questions about the technique to make sure that you’re like doing it right. So I’d asked the teacher kind of earlier on, I was like, um, am I supposed to like, feel this much pain? Because part of what they teach is like, you’re going to have a lot of discomfort throughout the process and. There’s like a balance between it, but a lot of the discomfort you’re supposed to push through, because it is really kind of just your brain, like making it up to make you not focus.

[00:16:15] Angela Lin: Um, versus I was like, but I feel like excruciating pain. Like I can’t walk for like three minutes after I get up. And she was like, um, yeah, maybe you need to switch your posture. So your position. So I was like, I, I was basically like killing my hips unnecessarily for three days. And then I switched to a different position, which is like, it’s still not easy, but at least I wasn’t like, um, I might be like genuinely hurting myself.

[00:16:44] Angela Lin: Uh, so yeah, no one talks about the physical stuff, but it’s like, it’s really hard, especially if you’re not like super flexible or whatever. Um, so yeah, that was an aspect where I was like, someone should have said this.

[00:16:57] Jesse Lin: Yeah. I mean, I can’t even imagine, like I, you know, I just, you just think about, at least for me, I think about sitting at a work desk for days on end, because I have a very comfortable chair, but at the same time, I’m like, can I sit in this chair for like 24 hours? Not really. So I’m curious if there was like, So you said, you said the guys and girls are in the same room, but they’re separate, right? So you weren’t with Ramon during that?

[00:17:21] Angela Lin: No, no, no, no, no. So, sorry, I should’ve said that. Um, so men and women are separated the entire 10 days. So after we dropped off our luggage, it was like, bye.

[00:17:32] Angela Lin: See you in 10 days. So the only time you’re actually together is in the meditation hall, but you are still separated by gender. So I could like look across the room and be like, there he is, but I couldn’t talk to him. I couldn’t do anything. Everything else is gender separated. So like there’s a women’s sleeping quarters, a women’s dining room, a women’s only walk path. So you don’t encounter anyone that’s not a woman the entire time if you’re a woman and vice versa. Yeah.

[00:18:01] Jesse Lin: Oh my god. Oh my God. Okay. So. Okay, actually, actually, I’m going to, I’m going to back up because now I’m curious about, cause I’m still like building the scene in my head. Did you have to wear special clothing, like robes or something?

[00:18:15] Angela Lin: We were wearing monks clothing, the entire – no. Um, there weren’t like cult uniforms or anything like that, but, um, you were restricted from wearing certain things. So again, the whole point is to like, not be distracted by stuff besides your own mind and stuff.

[00:18:32] Angela Lin: So they basically said like, don’t wear any. Distracting, like don’t wear tight clothing. Don’t wear like things that are going to show midriff. So like women weren’t allowed to wear like, uh, tights, for example, like workout tights, you had to wear like baggier things so that you don’t distract anyone with, you know, fleshly temptation.

[00:18:56] Angela Lin: Um, and, and then also you had to buy unscented toiletries because actually I felt it, it was like, once you have. Once you’re focusing so much on like just meditating the whole time and like your brain and your body, any, anything else is like really stimulating. So like one woman definitely did not buy unscented stuff.

[00:19:17] Angela Lin: And sometimes when she’d walk past me, I smelled her like, I don’t know, Dove shampoo or something. I was like, oh my God, that is so strong because everyone else is wearing unscented so that there was no like other sensory distraction,

[00:19:31] Jesse Lin: I really thought you were going to say she had really bad B.O.

[00:19:34] Angela Lin: No, no, I actually was surprised by how little B.O. I was smelling.

[00:19:42] Jesse Lin: Okay. So then let’s get to some more deeper questions. Maybe give us like your top three takeaways or learnings from the experience. And then I’ll kind of like bucket it out from there, maybe.

[00:19:57] Angela Lin: Yeah. I mean, definitely. Okay. There’s two kinds of two sets of learnings. The technique purely on its own. You were really just supposed to focus on like your body’s sensations.

[00:20:12] Angela Lin: So for example, like just sitting there and like your head starts getting itchy or like your hips hurt because you’re sitting or like you feel cold or you feel like your breath on your, your lip or something like that, like you’re just supposed to focus on like exactly what you actually feel on your body.

[00:20:31] Angela Lin: And if any thoughts come up, you’re supposed to like ignore them and get back to feeling what’s in your body. It’s like, technically from that standpoint, I’ll speak to like what I learned from that, but then there’s the other half where I was like, hmm, maybe I’m not doing this right. Which is the first three days, especially there was a lot of like purging of thoughts because you came into it from like the normal world right? And then you like suddenly come into this, like completely, you know, on your own, no technology, no nothing kind of situation. And your brain’s like going a mile a minute. So during the like purging session, I had other thoughts and other learnings, but I was like, I’m not sure I’m supposed to be having these learnings because I talked to the teacher and I was like, um, am, am I supposed to, like, if I have like a past memory come up, is this like what you’re talking about about like the things we’re supposed to like, let go and whatever.

[00:21:28] Angela Lin: And because I feel like I’ve had some of those where I’ve like had some learnings and she was like, no said essentially, she was like, no, you’re not supposed to think about past memories. You’re just supposed to like focus on your, your body. And I was like, oops. Um, so I had like my own sidetrack learnings as well.

[00:21:45] Angela Lin: Um, okay. So from like the actual, purely the technique, I think my biggest learning, which sounds obvious, but. Um, but it’s just like, it’s not that obvious until you’re like doing this kind of thing and you feel it yourself is like I said, like, you control your own happiness because I think I definitely, I mean, I get like annoyed, easily.

[00:22:11] Angela Lin: I can get angry easily. And like, I can definitely spiral where it’s like, if, especially if I’m like having a bad day or whatever, I’ll be like, oh my God, I can’t believe this person said this to me. And like this happened at work and then I lost my phone or like, whatever, right? Just like focusing on all the external things.

[00:22:28] Angela Lin: And when we learned that thing about like, really, truly you own your own happiness or suffering. I was like, oh, that’s wait. So like that, that’s so powerful because if you like, actually believe that and the thesis is that, like, the reason why we’re focusing on our sensations is that they are cues to you of what’s happening.

[00:22:53] Angela Lin: So like say you get angry, right. And you’re kind of in like a blind rage and like, you’re not thinking. The hope is that by practicing this over and over again, you’ll start recognizing like, oh, when I get angry, my heart starts beating faster. And like my hand starts clenching or like, I start, I have a slight cold sweat or something, right? And so the hope is that you’d start recognizing those feelings in your body quickly and be like, oh, I’m angry right now. And then you get that moment to decide like, do I want to stay angry and like make myself even more upset or do I want to like, try to let this go knowing that anger and anything else is just a fleeting feeling like it doesn’t ever last forever, nothing lasts forever in the world, right? So like, if I know that this is going to pass, do I let it linger longer? Or do I just let it pass now so that I can like focus on whatever needs to happen, as opposed to focus on being like, super emotional about it. So it doesn’t mean like you just let people walk all over you, but what it means is that instead of screaming and like crying and trying to like, get out your point of view through those means you can more calmly state, like what bothered you and what you need as opposed to be lost in the emotion. So that was like really powerful to me to learn because I was like, oh, that’s true. Because when I get angry, I can be angry for like the rest of the day.

[00:24:29] Angela Lin: You know what I mean? Like I could just be like lost. Um, and so when I realized like that’s on me, like yes, external forces can like, you know, plant the seed for me, but it’s on me if I let myself be miserable the rest of the time after that. So that was definitely like my biggest takeaway from the technique purely. Um, and then from like the side side learnings I wasn’t supposed to be having, um, man, well I’m just like airing my dirty laundry now, but, um, yeah, I think my biggest one

[00:25:08] Jesse Lin: Let us have it!

[00:25:09] Angela Lin: Well, you’re just getting an inner peek into like my therapy that’s evolved long and hard. Um, so I, I. Yeah. I’ve like in the past had kind of like revelations where I’m like, okay, I care a lot about what people think number one, right? That’s like one thing I just like have come to terms with, and in the past, I’ve also separately explored the concept of like, oh, I kind of feel like I was abandoned as a child. Um, and it’s not an obvious one because my parents didn’t get divorced. Like I wasn’t put up for adoption, you know, it’s not like, surface level, easy to understand why I would feel that. Um, and when I was doing my side revelations during this meditation technique, I kind of put those two things together, where I was like, oh, I seek other people’s attention and like validation from outside forces all the time, because I never felt like I got paid attention to, or given the love that I needed.

[00:26:11] Angela Lin: And I feel abandoned. I feel like I was abandoned when I was a child. Um, and so it was like, I had like so many past memories come up of just like random little instances of like the way I acted towards a certain person or like a different situation. And it was all like the same learning where it was like, oh, it wasn’t even about that person.

[00:26:33] Angela Lin: It was like, I just need validation because I needed to prove to myself that it was worth something. Um, and yeah, I won’t dig like so deep, but yeah, it was, that was a huge learning for me where I was like, oh wow. Everything stems back to this. That like all of my obsession with why care about what people think about me and comes back to this.

[00:26:57] Angela Lin: So, yeah.

[00:26:58] Jesse Lin: So it’s, it’s the connection of understanding that trying to analyze your physiological reactions to emotion and sensing that beforehand, and then like deciding whether to engage that emotion or not learning number one. And then number two was connecting those two, um, kind of just competing not competing past desires that you had the attention getting and the, uh, some abandonment issues.

[00:27:25] Jesse Lin: Those are your like two big learnings.

[00:27:28] Angela Lin: Yeah. That they were connected.

[00:27:30] Jesse Lin: Anything else?

[00:27:31] Angela Lin: Um, I mean, I think there are a lot of like small things, but I think those were like the two giant ones. Oh, actually, no, sorry. I take that back. The other thing is that…

[00:27:42] Jesse Lin: Ooo juicy!

[00:27:43] Angela Lin: Um, no, not that juicy there’s these were like the biggest, like personal insights.

[00:27:46] Angela Lin: But, um, remember how I said I was convinced to do it because I felt like it might be a step towards figuring out my own spirituality. So when I learned that this technique was created by Buddha. I was like, wait, like, I didn’t know that, um, 360 and also three, no, 360. Cause coming back to full circle, right?

[00:28:12] Angela Lin: Um, yeah. And what I really enjoyed about all these, um, all these days is that at night there were one hour, what they called discourses, which is they had like video recordings of the original teacher. Um, Kind of explaining what you were going through that day and also kind of telling like stories and parables from like Buddhist days of like, why, why this was kind of the lesson and like all that stuff.

[00:28:42] Angela Lin: Um, and what I really enjoyed about the way he taught. And the way that he explained how Buddha taught it was, he was like, this has nothing to do with religion. He was like, I don’t care if you’re Buddhist. I don’t care if you’re Christian Jew, like whatever, you can be, whatever, if this is not religious, like you are learning how to control your own mind and to find your own peace.

[00:29:02] Angela Lin: And it should not matter what your religion is. It is about being your own master, essentially. And, kind of with the end goal of like when you are such a master of your own emotions and your peace of mind. You start dissolving your ego because it’s not about you anymore, right? And when you are able to do that, you have more empathy and compassion towards other people and want to serve other people.

[00:29:30] Angela Lin: So that is kind of like the end goal and what truly enlightened people do is they don’t think about themselves. They think about other people and like how to help other people. Um, and so I just, like, I was kind of blown away cause I was like, wow, this is like, this is like spirituality I can understand because it’s not about like practicing certain things.

[00:29:54] Angela Lin: And he said that often he was like, this is not about like rites and rituals and like things you just like take at face value. This is about truths that you learn in your own body and your own mind. And therefore you can actually accept because you’re experiencing it yourself. It’s not about like reciting things or like just like blindly doing XYZ.

[00:30:16] Angela Lin: And he also – he taught me more about Buddha than I think we ever learned at temple, frankly, because he was like, you know, Buddha was – number one he was a real human. But then after he died was when Buddhism was created. And he was like, actually during Buddhist time, he was like, I don’t want a religion.

[00:30:35] Angela Lin: Like, don’t make a religion from me. I don’t want this. Cause he was like this, actually making a religion in my name will limit the number of people who learn this technique, because then they’ll think that it’s a religious thing and really it’s for everyone to like find liberation in themselves. So I was just like, whoa, like mind blown kind of.

[00:30:56] Angela Lin: And I definitely. See this kind of like self-improvement thing, um, even before the meditation retreat, but I kind of came to that conclusion that like my self growth on this journey was my, my own path towards spirituality. And I feel like this is just such an like practical way for me to like, develop that further.

[00:31:17] Angela Lin: And I see the real benefits because I’m not like I’m not perfect now. And I definitely still get angry and like, I still get agitated, but just knowing that like, I can like catch myself faster and kind of like minimize how much damage I’m causing to myself and other people is huge. And like, just thinking about how much further I can get in, you know, years from now.

[00:31:42] Angela Lin: If I stick to this, I’m just like, it’s worth it. And it is like gonna make me a better person and hopefully help other people too, if I’m not so self-absorbed.

[00:31:55] Jesse Lin: Wow. That’s really cool. No, it really is. Um, I wanted to ask, like, so is the ultimate objective to kind of purge yourself of all emotion or are there situations where an emotion is appropriate to engage?

[00:32:10] Angela Lin: So it’s, it’s really hard to understand because actually Ramon has always told me this and I was like, I don’t know what that even means. Which is um, you’re allowed to feel your emotion. Like you still, your end goal is not to be a robot and to like, not feel anything, the goal is to feel it, but to be able to recognize it and not let it take you over.

[00:32:36] Angela Lin: So you aren’t supposed to. Yeah. You, I mean to what you’re saying, you are not supposed to like indulge the emotion really ever. You’re allowed to feel it and like, you know, I acknowledge it, observe it, acknowledge it, but you’re not allowed to be like, okay, I’m angry. So I’m going to be fucking angry right now.

[00:32:59] Angela Lin: I mean like that’s so yeah, it was like to the extreme, which is it’s like, we’re not all Jesus and we’re not all Buddha, right? But he was like, I mean, the extreme example is Jesus, who was crucified by his like enemy people who thought they were his enemies, right? And he’s like the real testament to whether someone was in lightened person or not is what their state of mind was when they were dying.

[00:33:28] Angela Lin: And he was like, when Jesus, the human died, all he had in his mind was compassion and love for the people who were torturing him to death, because he was essentially thinking like, these poor souls don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t know that they’re hurting themselves by doing this to me. So like, that’s kind of the goal.

[00:33:50] Angela Lin: It’s like, you’re not, it’s not that you don’t feel anything. It’s, it’s just that like, things don’t get to you as much anymore because you’re focused on. You know that everything’s kind of temporary and you know, that the end goal is like compassion and love for other people. So there’s no reason to like dwell on. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:10] Jesse Lin: It’s like this. Um, it’s, it’s very similar to what, what they say in Calm like many of the Calm things, which is like, feel your emotion, but try to not react to it because it builds the emotion in like a really negative way. Yes. Awesome. Cool. Um, what did it feel like to be separated from conversation and people like, did you introspect about like, did you ever think like, oh my God, like, or were you like in the dining hall and be like, look at my eyes, look at me.

[00:34:42] Angela Lin: Well, you’re not supposed to make eye contact, so no, you weren’t doing that. Um, I told you that no eye contact.

[00:34:49] Jesse Lin: No, I know, but it’s just like so hard. Cause it’s like your natural instinct to be like, you know, to smile at someone or to like look at their face. Yeah.

[00:34:58] Angela Lin: Yeah. I mean, it’s not like exactly perfect silence, because like I said, you’re allowed to ask questions to the teacher and then you have a, um, each side has what they call a course manager, which is essentially kind of like your babysitter for the week.

[00:35:13] Angela Lin: There’s like one woman and one man and their whole job is to like, make sure you have what you need that week. So you were talking to that person sometimes too, where you’re like, hey, I need like a prop for my knees because they’re fucking dying in this sitting position or whatever, right? So you’re not like silent, silent, um, with absolutely no talking.

[00:35:32] Angela Lin: Um, but. It was, uh, I mean, you asked kind of like, what’s going in your head and stuff like that. Um, you do start like making up stories or like I did where I was like making up what I thought people’s lives were like. I mean, like I said, the majority of the time, you’re just meditating, but I’m talking about like when you’re in the dining hall or like you’re like walking around on the walking paths and you’re like past people, you kind of like, I think you pick up more on people’s like, you know, the way they walk and like the way they kind of like hold themselves and like little habits that they’re doing, and you don’t know anything about them because you haven’t talked to them or anything.

[00:36:11] Angela Lin: But, um, like there was one woman that like walked the entire hour every time. And she kinda had like this like really strong walk and I was like, this lady’s a bad-ass like, she’s probably like, you know, like making up things in my head. Um, so, but yeah, that’s all you can do cause you’re not interacting with anyone. You have one day at the end where you get to talk to people.

[00:36:35] Angela Lin: Um, because it’s technically 10 days of active stuff, right? But, um, starting 10th day morning, you do like one group meditation and then they break the slience and you’re allowed to talk again, um, which is actually like, kind of weird because there were more meditations after that, where then you had to like get back into it.

[00:37:00] Angela Lin: And it’s really hard once you stop the silence. Um, and honestly like you and I have talked about like the social awkwardness of COVID like getting back to the social stuff, dude, not talking for 10 days. I was like, oh my God, because we, we broke the silence. Everyone kind of went back to their rooms to like pee.

[00:37:18] Angela Lin: And then like, I heard a bunch of talking in the hallway and I was like, what’s going on? And then I came out of my room and there was just like this giant circle of women talking, like they all kind of gathered in the hallway and we’re like talking and I walked slowly and intrepidly up to the group and I was like, what’s happening?

[00:37:38] Angela Lin: And they’re all just like so loudly talking and I was overwhelmed, like overwhelmed. I’m like, y’all just went from like silence to like, you know? Yeah. So it’s a lot.

[00:37:52] Jesse Lin: I actually was going to take out, take back my statement in the beginning. Cause I’m, I’m just thinking about it now. Like I feel like if I was in the same space with people not talking acknowledging in any way, like saying that they exist and then on the 10th day was asked to talk to them, I would be like, I’m I’m good. I’m good.

[00:38:11] Angela Lin: Yeah, I hid my room a little more than the other people. I was like, I don’t know if I want to…

[00:38:18] Jesse Lin: So speaking of you, I mean, once you got to the point where your brain was mostly emptied out and you’re just like feeling your body, are there any recurring sensations that were like the strongest?

[00:38:31] Angela Lin: Yeah. So I am apparently a very itchy person or like, I think, I think people get itchy more than we think we do until you are only paying attention to your body because we do so many things like without thinking, right? Like most of the time when you have an itch, you don’t even notice it. You’re already scratching your nose before you realize it, and then it’s over and you’re your, you didn’t even register it now. It’s like, oh, I’m supposed to like realize every time there’s an itch. Wow. I’m itchy a lot. Like, so, um, itch was a big one. Um, and then kind of one of the like later stages you’re supposed to reach is, um, after you can get past like the itchiness, the like pain, the air like random, more like blatant sensations. You are theoretically supposed to start feeling kind of like a subtle vibration everywhere in your body. And this is because one of the things that he also kind of set up early is like, um, this is a very kind of like objective technique of like re reality as it is.

[00:39:44] Angela Lin: And he was like, if you think about it, everything in the universe is just subatomic particles, including us, right? We just happen to be formulated into these blobs of atoms that make up a human, but at like our base, if you like keep micro scoping us down. We’re just particles.

[00:40:03] Angela Lin: Right? So he was like the vibrations you feel if you actually get to that point is because you’re so in tune with your body and what’s actually happening, the true sensations, you’re feeling, you’re feeling the vibrations of the particles in your body, like vibrating. Um, so like, uh, not end goal because the goal again is to like, just be fully aware and like be equanamous or whatever, but sensation, sensorially one of the later stage hopes is that you just feel vibrations and you like kind of lose track of your body and you just kind of melt into these vibrations because that’s ultimately what we are. Um, and, and yeah, so I only got to that point almost once, um, deep in the like blackout room pagodas cell.

[00:41:03] Angela Lin: Um, but if you get past the like itchiness and whatever, another recurring sensation is like subtle vibration, but not necessarily everywhere. Like, I happen to feel it quite a bit in my hands. Um, usually, like, I can feel it right now, but it’s not everywhere all the time.

[00:41:21] Jesse Lin: Hmm. And, and the point of, um, the point of it, when you encounter, like, let’s say your itchiness or like hot or whatever is to, you’re not supposed to react to it, like same with emotions or you’re just supposed to kind of observe it.

[00:41:33] Angela Lin: Yeah. So there’s, you’re supposed to get to the point where you’re retraining your mind for how you think about these things. So it’s not like itch bad vibration good. It’s supposed to just be like, itch is itch. Vibration is vibration. Yeah. Um, he also said like the suffering that we inflict on ourselves is caused by two main things.

[00:41:56] Angela Lin: One is craving and one is aversion and everything boils down to that. So like, if you’re like, oh, the vibrations feel so good. I want to feel this more than you’re craving that vibration. And then when you don’t get the vibration, you get upset because you’re like, what the heck? I was like, I felt those really nice feeling before and now I don’t feel anymore.

[00:42:14] Angela Lin: I’m angry. And then on the flip side, Why am I so itchy? Will this itch never go away? Right? Then you’re making yourself angry from that sense. So he was like everything in everything in the world, in terms of like your interactions with external forces comes down to craving and aversion, and your goal is to reduce both and just be equanamous where everything’s kind of like meh like I I’m I’m good.

[00:42:39] Jesse Lin: All right. Well, listeners, we’re going to move on to the Fortune Cookie, cause we always like to end on a sweet treat. My question for you. Um, I wrote here is, would you recommend it and was it too intense? Like, would you re like what kind of person would you recommend it to where it’s like, you’re like good on that. And what kind of person would you say like, you might need to do some, like pre-work before you sign up for this.

[00:43:06] Angela Lin: 10 out of 10 recommend to every human on the planet. Um, it’s not easy. It’s not going to be easy. Like I said, I didn’t really meditate before. So there’s no real prep you can do though, because like, we had heard this before, too, from some friends who did it, where I was like, really hyping it up where I was like, I don’t meditate.

[00:43:27] Angela Lin: How am I going to do this? And they’re like, honestly, it doesn’t matter if you meditate or not, because you’re not going to be ready for this. Like you’re meditating for 10 to 11 hours a day. You cannot possibly prep for that. Even if you meditate every day for 20 minutes, you’re never going to be mentally or physically ready for that.

[00:43:48] Angela Lin: So just deal with it. Like it’s, it’s almost similar to psychedelics where you have to just like learn to let go, because that’s, what’s going to happen is like you have to let go. Um, but if you can get past that hurdle of like, that’s going to be your state for 10 days, I genuinely feel like this is beneficial to every single person ever. I mean, because it is, it’s just learning how to control your own happiness and like what’s. Um, and I actually am so like bought in on this, that like the prescription that they give us as on our way out is you’re supposed to meditate every morning and every night, one hour each for the rest of your life.

[00:44:32] Angela Lin: And it’s, it’s only been like a week since I left, but I’ve been doing it. And I like, I’m going to try my best to stick to it because I see the potential of like what it can do for not just my happiness, but like also those around me, right? If I can be a kinder person because of like being able to control my own emotions better.

[00:44:56] Angela Lin: Why wouldn’t I try that. Um, so I’ve already recommended it to my parents, my brother, like my friends, I’m like telling everyone to do it. Um, and what’s cool is that it’s not like a one-shot thing. Um, so like I said, you were like theoretically supposed to meditate for the rest of your life. Um, every day does to a certain extent, but he also says at the end that like…

[00:45:16] Angela Lin: So once you have done it, once you are considered an old student and everyone who’s only done it, or it’s like their first time they’re called a new student. So old students are recommended to redo the 10 day course once every year. So it’s not like, oh, I graduated from this thing and I’m now like a master.

[00:45:34] Angela Lin: It’s like, you’re on this path and it’s like a lifelong path. Um, and they have this really cool program where for old students, you can either sit in on another program or you can be a server. So something I didn’t mention is that all of this is nonprofit and volunteer based. So everyone who’s working is a volunteer.

[00:45:57] Angela Lin: The teachers are volunteers, the course manager is a volunteer, the people who serve you and cook the food for you are volunteers. Um, and you’re only able to stay there from the generosity of others. So everyone at the end of the course is allowed to donate money, but there is no actual cost to the program.

[00:46:17] Angela Lin: So it’s free and you’re not allowed to donate until the end after you’ve gone through the whole thing, because then you can evaluate for yourself kind of like what the value was that you think you got out of it, as opposed to just like blindly having to pay an amount. Um, so old students can be servers.

[00:46:34] Angela Lin: So those are really cool because basically. You are also there for 10 days, but you’re, again, you’re like cooking and serving the food during meal times, and then three hours a day you get to join the group in the meditation hall and you’re also meditating. So it’s kind of like an active way of practicing what you’ve learned of like this compassion for other people and serving other people.

[00:46:59] Angela Lin: Cause you’re like literally doing that while you’re alongside working on your meditation during those group times. So I think for me the next time I do this, I want to sign up as a server actually.

[00:47:12] Jesse Lin: Awesome. Well, I can’t wait to hear what the, what the perspective is from a server’s lens when you do do it. Cool. Is there, like, is there anything else you’d like to let the listeners know?

[00:47:24] Angela Lin: No, I mean, I am like, I honestly, I had such a great experience and like, I think it’s so worthwhile that, like, I know we always say write us in with any questions. So like, part of me kind of wants to do like an AMA or something. Like if anyone’s ever been interested about doing a silent meditation retreat or meditation retreat, something like this, like, I will answer anyone’s question because I genuinely think it’s beneficial to everyone. So yeah, email us anything. Telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com or drop off, drop us a DM or like write in the comments on the Instagram post when I put this up of like, I mean, I’m happy to do like a one hour a day or whatever, to just like answer anyone’s questions that you have.

[00:48:09] Angela Lin: I don’t know where else to start talking about it. I have so much I could say about it. So I’ll just kinda like leave it at whatever questions people have. I will happily explore with you. Yes. Um, thank you for joining us this week. Come back next week because we will have another fresh episode for you then.

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Why Do We Feel Lonely During the Holidays?


[00:00:00] Angela Lin: I’m Angela Lin.

[00:00:01] Jesse Lin: And I’m Jesse Lin, and welcome back to, But Where Are You Really From?

[00:00:08] Angela Lin: I’m keeping that.


Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)


[00:00:09] Jesse Lin: And welcome back to, But Where Are You Really From. Jingle bells, jingle bells, it’s the holiday season. We’re so excited for holidays. I’m sure everyone else is too to spend some well-earned time off or time with family and friends. And I think we’ve discussed it before, but it’s really nice around the holiday season, particularly if you live – well, at least for me, if you live somewhere urban and you’re currently in New York right now, because it gets very festive, like all of the individual neighborhoods, rollout lights on the street, you have like Christmas trees everywhere. People sometimes would go out and decorate stuff. So I think it is uh happy to have the holidays back this season and a new record for me, I haven’t played any Mariah Carey yet.

[00:00:57] Angela Lin: Whoa, well, when do you usually start?

[00:00:59] Jesse Lin: Uh, like or early November. Yeah, basically the end of Halloween. It’s it’s about the time. Um, are you excited?

[00:01:09] Angela Lin: I am. I am. I we’re going to be in Europe to spend the holidays with Ramon’s family. We still have to book the, like what actually we’re doing, but I agree with you.

[00:01:21] Angela Lin: I think it’ll be nice to be somewhere that has seasons. It’s not like that intense over there as much as New York or generally east coast, north America, but it does, has the potential for snow. And, uh, I also think just in general, like Europe tends to have more of the like Christmassy vibe maybe because so much of it is still more Christian and Catholic based, do you think?

[00:01:47] Jesse Lin: Uh, I mean, you can’t shake that, but I think it’s also just a big family thing. And I remember like they have that the huge thing, El Gordo, so it’s like very much.

[00:01:59] Angela Lin: I don’t remember. I don’t remember what this is.

[00:02:01] Jesse Lin: The Christmas lottery, El Gordo.

[00:02:04] Angela Lin: Uh, I don’t know.

[00:02:05] Jesse Lin: It’s like the biggest lottery that they have every year. And like, everyone buys the tickets for Christmas and they always come out every year. They come out with some kind of ad that’s like a tear jerker. That’s like buy this ticket because you love your family. You know, they’re very good, but it’s very like, uh, like tear-jerking. Yeah.

[00:02:23] Angela Lin: Interesting. No, I don’t know this, but, okay, cool. What are your holiday?

[00:02:30] Jesse Lin: Um, to be honest. Okay. So for Thanksgiving, I already had a friends giving this past weekend and I’m spending with you and Ramon and my boyfriend, John, like actual Thanksgiving. And then for Christmas itself, honestly, I don’t think I have any plans. I’m just getting…

[00:02:49] Angela Lin: Are you going home?

[00:02:50] Jesse Lin: no cause I’m actually, I didn’t tell you this, but my parents are coming to visit me.

[00:02:54] Angela Lin: Oh they finally, they pulled the trigger.

[00:02:55] Jesse Lin: Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, I was like, the tickets were really cheap. Like I said, they were like maybe 500 total, five and six. And I was like, no, no, no, I lied. It was like 800, but it’s a direct flight from John Wayne to LaGuardia.

[00:03:10] Angela Lin: And that’s 800 for two people, cause that’s still very cheap.

[00:03:12] Jesse Lin: Yeah. Yeah. That’s still, it’s still really cheap. So I, I, I was like, if you guys have the time off, I’ll just buy it for you. And then like, you know, we’ll just hang out for a week. And it times up perfectly, because my official last day, I think is December the third. And then I have the next week off, which is when they come and they leave a few days into when I start my new job.

[00:03:33] Jesse Lin: So I think it’ll all work out very well. Yeah.

[00:03:36] Angela Lin: Oh, that’s a little depressing that you have to start a new job like a week before Christmas though.

[00:03:42] Jesse Lin: I’m hoping it’ll be, yeah I’m hoping it will be pretty relaxed. Like the new company has Christmas Eve and Christmas day off as well as new year’s Eve and new year’s day off so it should be pretty chill, like I can’t imagine it’ll be….

[00:03:52] Angela Lin: People will probably take time off You’ll probably just be boring orientation stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:01] Jesse Lin: Cool. So I am, I’m excited for. Uh, to see my parents, I’m excited to just have a little bit of quiet time and hopefully things will be less hectic and I’ll be able to finally not be stressed and relax a little bit. Yeah.

[00:04:16] Angela Lin: Yes. You have a few weeks. Be a little more chill than usual place. Well, okay. So we are excited and most people are excited for at least the time off and seeing family and friends that you probably haven’t seen in a while, but today we’re taking a darker turn taking a darker turn. Um, cause the last time we did a top, uh, we did the like holidays episode.

[00:04:45] Angela Lin: It was about all the like things we love about it and like the, the positive side, which is definitely, you know, a huge part of this season. But I think what is not often spoken about that we wanted to chat about today is that the holidays is also a time that can make people pretty sad and like depressed because it, because I think there’s so much weight put on this idea of like, uh, coming together and like spending it with like loved ones and whatever.

[00:05:15] Angela Lin: And if you know you’re not…. You don’t have the opportunity to be around loved ones or like, you know, many other circumstances could lead you to not actually be super happy and warm and jolly. So I think we wanted to talk about this kind of like flip side and some reasons why a lot of people are more kind of like, you know, the winter blues holiday blues, as opposed to the bright and shiny.

[00:05:42] Jesse Lin: Yeah. Yeah. We’re keeping it real, I’m sure many, many of you listeners have maybe not continuously done holidays by yourself, but at some point had to have a holiday by yourself because if you went to college away from home or something like that, it’s not always easy to go back for the holidays because it’s expensive or what have you.

[00:06:01] Jesse Lin: And I do think that. We don’t really talk about the fact that the holidays can be a depressing time for people. And I just think it’s like interesting to expose and have a discussion about it. So what, what would we, what was say first? I mean, like I would say for me, I remember those times that I didn’t go home for holidays for college.

[00:06:25] Jesse Lin: And although it was always kind of a logical choice because like, especially for Thanksgiving where you didn’t really get any time off. It didn’t make sense to fly like five to six hours across the country and then fly back immediately. So on paper, I was kind of like, okay. Yeah. That’s just kinda how it is.

[00:06:41] Jesse Lin: But reality, it was like a little bit lonely because like most people were able to leave or most people were able to go home and it like reminds you of like so many different things. The first thing is like, you’re not, at least for me. I was like, okay, I’m not getting to see my folks. Like, that’s a little bit of a bummer.

[00:06:59] Jesse Lin: And then the other thing is that like, okay, like I know there are other people that are like me who are going home and it’s like kind of a little bit of a bummer that I can’t really like afford to do that right now, either. And then there’s just like all these like little other things that are kind of like mehh about not being able to, to spend holidays with family or friends necessarily.

[00:07:22] Angela Lin: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely echo that. I never went home for Thanksgiving either. And even, even Christmas, I feel like there was this kind of like window of time, where, depending on when your finals, were you got to like leave earlier or later for winter break. And I remember some of mine were like dragging on into like very close to Christmas and then that delays, like when you’re able to fly out and I would feel kind of depressed when I saw people like leaving campus and it would start thinning out and you’re like one of the few people there. And so I think there’s kind of like two halves of the story. One half is like you genuinely are like sad that you can’t spend that time you know, more time with your family and friends from home and like being reminded that you’re poor, you know, and the limitations that you have there.

[00:08:14] Angela Lin: But I also think the other half is like, it’s a lot of like perception based and kind of like what you’re told you’re supposed to be doing at that time. And so, and then comparing to that, getting kind of sad about it because like, If people didn’t pity you so much. I think that’s a big part of it is like, I felt pitied a lot.

[00:08:38] Angela Lin: It was like, people would be like, oh, you should be home right now. Or like, you should be able to have this opportunity and like poor you poor little like lost rejected Angela or whatever. I’d be like, oh Jesus. You know, they weren’t that dramatic, but it was just like, that was the kind of the sentiment. It was like, I get to go home and I get to do these things.

[00:08:58] Angela Lin: And like poor you, you’re stuck here. And I’m like, okay.

[00:09:04] Jesse Lin: Yeah, I that’s definitely, I think that’s definitely true part. I feel like part of the reason that it wasn’t such a big impact for me in college is because as an Asian person, like Thanksgiving and Christmas, like we celebrate, but it’s not really that big of a deal. It’s just kind of like any other excuse to like, have a family dinner versus like some of the more Asian holidays were like a bigger deal. Um, so it was never like a huge thing for me where I was like, oh my God, I’m like missing out on this huge thing with my family.

[00:09:33] Jesse Lin: It’s not like that, but I kind of feel like as I’ve gotten older and you know, I’ve lived here for awhile. There’s no, at least I don’t have any plan right now to go back. It’s kind of become more permanent situation where I’m like, holy shit. Like I feel a little bit, you know, rootless. Like I have friends here and we, we do do things together during holidays when people are available, but it’s not the same kind of – it should be the same. It should be just as good as the hallmark vision of it, but it’s different, right? Like, it doesn’t feel the same, even though these are like people that you, that like they’re friends that I do really love. And they’re friends that I do really enjoy time with, but your life in your heart, you’re like, I want this like family thing.

[00:10:20] Jesse Lin: That’s like very traditional, at least for me. Family thing that’s like very traditional and like all this stuff. And it’s so funny because even as I talk about, I think about I’m like, I’ve never really had all this stuff to begin with. So like, why did I think that going back would suddenly somehow spawn like, um, this very like American traditional Christmas experience.

[00:10:42] Jesse Lin: So it definitely is like a little bit of like a mind fuck.

[00:10:46] Angela Lin: We actually did have traditions. I mean, Thanksgiving we’ve talked about, but I forced them to do Thanksgiving, but I made them do it every year. So we did do it every year, but things are Christmas as you know, my family does that Vegas every year. So like, there was a distinct kind of like difference if I couldn’t make it.

[00:11:05] Angela Lin: Um, or like, because of me, we had to like shift the dates or like shorten it or whatever, because of the time I could get off from school or work or whatever. Um, so yeah, I mean, that’s a wacky, like also an Asian thing from California, like to go to Vegas every year, but like there was a tradition. Um, but I think you mentioned Hallmark.

[00:11:30] Angela Lin: I think that is a big reason that not just us, but like a lot of people can never live up to the level of joy that they think they’re supposed to have during the holidays is because you’re constantly bombarded from literally from when Thanksgiving is over until Christmas, you start getting all those Hallmark movies, the Lifetime movies, the ABC family, or whatever the fuck that – Freeform it’s called now. Um, all those like super over the top, cheesy, you know, Christmas movies that, Hey, I’ve indulged in here and there. But like if you’ve watched one, you’ve watched them all and they’re always the same. And it’s always like so perfect the way that they set everything up. And it’s like once you unlock the way to like, spend that time with your special someone or whatever, and your family then like, everything’s amazing. And so if you don’t have the most amazing, like, perfect moment, like in those movies, you feel like something’s wrong.

[00:12:35] Jesse Lin: Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree.

[00:12:38] Jesse Lin: And, and I mean, even just like, you know, probably like when you were saying that. The most salient thing that came to mind are car commercials. You know, the one where they like bring out the mom and they’re like, oh my God, it’s a Lexus with a bow on it. I’m like, what? Like, this is really far from my reality. It’s okay. I’m, I’m in a good place right now.

[00:13:01] Jesse Lin: It’s still really far from my reality for that to be a thing. So like, yeah, there’s definitely like a huge, like expectation gap created, I guess, to make you buy stuff or make you feel a certain way, but still it’s like, yeah, it’s definitely like super crazy.

[00:13:18] Angela Lin: I think there’s also just like more literal and like, uh, like physical things happening during the season.

[00:13:26] Angela Lin: Like we haven’t talked about daylight savings time, but that happened a few weeks ago and it’s such a sharp contrast. Cause then all of a sudden you’re just like, oh, it’s four o’clock and pitch-black now every day. Yeah. And yeah, without, with fewer hours of sunlight. It’s proven that you can have seasonal depression and like, it’s not just made up.

[00:13:50] Angela Lin: And I remember, I think we talked about this maybe, but when I studied abroad in London, this has nothing to do with daylight savings times just to like the amount of sun you get or not, the sun came out three total times in the four months that I lived there. And one of them was the day that I left, but it was so sad.

[00:14:07] Angela Lin: Um, but I remember it was. Overcast every day and kind of like drizzly every day and maybe halfway through, or know one month in, I, I like stopped and thought to myself and I was like, why am I so down all the time? And then I thought about it. I was like, oh, because I’m from California and I have a sun every day usually.

[00:14:30] Angela Lin: And there’s zero sun here. That actually makes a ton of sense.

[00:14:35] Jesse Lin: No, I, I think that also, that definitely does have a huge impact, because like, aside from, okay. Aside from the fact that you don’t get sun, which, which I think yes, can like really fuck around with your mood, you also can’t really do anything anymore.

[00:14:49] Jesse Lin: Like after the sun goes down, cause it’s too cold to do anything. So then you’re also kind of like, all right, I’m spending all day, depending on your position. If you’re so lucky to work from home, you’re like I’m spending all day inside my apartment and then I’m stuck inside my apartment for the rest of the day.

[00:15:05] Jesse Lin: Like, so it can be definitely like one of those things where it’s de-motivating for you to do anything. And then you’re just going to like, stop both like physically and emotionally. Yeah.

[00:15:18] Angela Lin: It’s kind of like, uh, a hibernation, like it’s like a, it’s like how bears want to hibernate. It’s similar. Right? Cause you’re just like, it’s cold it’s dark. I don’t want to be outside. And even while we’re talking about cold places, but even when I lived in San Francisco, it never got that cold. But as someone who used to take public transportation to, and from work every day, pre COVID, like once daily savings hit. It was, it felt dangerous to be out past, you know, when it was dark to have to like walk a certain distance to like wherever the bus stop was.

[00:15:54] Angela Lin: Um, so you, there’s like, depending on where you live, there’s also a like, well, once the sun’s down and doesn’t feel that safe anymore, so I don’t want to be out for that reason either. There were more hours in the day for me to be out and about, but now I don’t want to.

[00:16:09] Jesse Lin: And one of the other things that I feel is. that like, Okay. Like when all the holiday day things come out and I’m not ready for them, like I’m not in the mood. It kind of makes me feel worse because I’m like, oh, it’s so nice. And like, there’s a holiday markets and there’s lights. And like, I want to be like in the mood to be like festive and happy, but I’m not.

[00:16:32] Jesse Lin: And then it’s like, you have this like, dissonance that just makes it worse than if it was just like some other random time of the year, because then your, you know, your surroundings are just kind of your surroundings as they are. Um, but sometimes I definitely do feel that too, where I’m like, maybe I’m walking down like streets that have Christmas lights and stuff and the decorations and the festiveness reminds me of the loneliness.

[00:16:56] Jesse Lin: And it’s just makes it like so much worse..

[00:17:01] Jesse Lin: Yes. I

[00:17:02] Angela Lin: think there’s two things to that. One is like, it reminds me of one of the reasons I left New York was, uh, I was sick of the constant FOMO feeling and the guilt I had, I would feel associated for not buying into the FOMO. So like I similarly with the holiday stuff, it’s kind of like, oh, all these like lights and the festivities and then the holiday market or whatever should make you have FOMO like, oh yeah, I need to like, get in there and like, get to be part of it, but if you’re kind of like feeling not into that, then it there’s a guilt almost. There’s like a partial guilt associated where you’re like, oh, this time of year, is like temporary, I should really be, I should be doing this, but I don’t want to. And so maybe something’s wrong with me or like, oh, I, you know, feel bad for that. And then the other part, as you mentioned, is like, it juxtaposes against your own feelings of loneliness.

[00:18:03] Angela Lin: And we’ve discussed a whole episode of loneliness if people haven’t listened to that episode yet. I’m like loneliness is a very real feeling. But as we discussed then, and now in the US – Western or yeah, US specific, at least loneliness is looked down on like, it’s not. It’s not as, um, easy to be like, oh, I’m just like, I want to be alone.

[00:18:30] Angela Lin: Like, I just want to like go out by myself and like spend time by myself or whatever. It’s like, oh, you’re the like sad person that’s by themselves, especially. And then it’s like amplified during the holidays because that’s the time when everyone thinks you’re supposed to be with like so many people that are in your life.

[00:18:47] Angela Lin: So if you, for some reason your work or like, Lexus commercial or whatever, everything you said before you are alone, it like makes you feel exponentially lonelier and bad because it’s a time when you’re, you’re told that you were supposed to not be alone.

[00:19:07] Jesse Lin: Yeah, no, I agree with you. I mean, like I, and, and the other thing that I’ll add, which you kind of already said is just like, it’s very othering to feel like you don’t – that you can’t participate because you feel a certain way. And then you’re like, okay, then I don’t feel normal anymore because this is like how everyone else is. But I mean, I think the point of the episode and the reality is, is that it’s probably not the case like that for most people. Right? No, most people are not getting a Lexis with a bow on it. If you’re in the position to do that , call me. Um, but yeah, most people are not going to, um, be experiencing that kind of thing.

[00:19:43] Angela Lin: Yeah. And then add on the fact that we’ve been living in a pandemic for the last two years and like take away the holidays. One of the things that the, the silent, silent most negative impacts of the pandemic during this whole time has been the spike in depression and like suicidal thoughts and things like that. And a big portion of the population, especially young people. And then during the holidays, if like for some reason you still can’t spend time with your family after so long, it’s just like, you know, it’s, it can be unbearable.

[00:20:22] Jesse Lin: Yeah, honestly, it’s rough, man. And then like I had, honestly, like when things started opening up and like I started seeing people. I had this moment where I was like, am I broken? Because I was coming out of it being like, I should be so happy to see my friends. I should be so happy to be able to like, have brunch out on the street again, like do all these normal things that I felt like I had taken for granted before, but I didn’t. Like, you know, like I was, you know, excited and happy to see them, but it wasn’t at the level that I was like, I guess hyping myself up, hyping myself up for, so there’s definitely, I definitely feel there’s some of that. And this is like, I guess kind of the first, again, like another first, the first holiday out of COVID technically like, you know, a lot of people have been vaccinated at this point, yadah yadah yadah.

[00:21:17] Jesse Lin: Um, and it might be even for some people, like the first time that they see their family, depending on the situation. Um, that they’ve been in and like who, who they’ve wanted to see over this period of time. And it can feel really weird to see people that you want to see again. And then be like, actually, like, I don’t really feel anything, but I actually, that’s pretty normal right? I just feel like everyone feels weird about it, but that’s actually very normal. I, you know, like I, cause afterwards I’ve talked to a lot of my other friends about it and they’re like, yeah. I also feel like, I don’t know, like I don’t understand how to hang out with people again. And it was. Doesn’t feel like I thought how it would after coming out of like a long, shitty period.

[00:21:59] Jesse Lin: Um, but I think that’s normal. That’s okay. It’s just not, what’s not, what’s being honestly put out there about the holiday season.

[00:22:08] Angela Lin: Yeah, I don’t think it’s spoken about too much, but because we’ve been effectively alone for the last two years stuck at home. Well, again, like you said, that the ones that have enough privilege to be able to work at home, as opposed to like frontline workers and service workers, who’ve had to work this whole time.

[00:22:25] Angela Lin: Um, but once we have been at home, All right. We lost all our social skills. Like we only interact with the people over screens like you and I saw each other for the first time, like two months ago in real life, you know, for my wedding. Um, so it, I dunno, it’s just, we’re all, we’re all broken right now. We’re all a little broken and we’re all going to have to like relearn social skills and, and related like the proper or not proper, I guess there’s no real, proper way that your emotion should play out, but like to recalibrate your emotions and your emotional response to like what should be happy times with people um, IRL, because we just haven’t done it in a long time.

[00:23:10] Angela Lin: Let’s, uh, kick it back up. And, um, I think one of the flip sides of like, if you have become, or have ever been in this quote unquote, like outcast territory, like we’ve been in where you don’t have for one reason or another the opportunity to go home or be around a lot of friends and family during the holiday season. The good news is that you can make your own family for better or for worse during this time with your other friends that are in similar situations. And I definitely know that like for me, especially during college, when it was like you know, it was implausible that I would ever go home for Thanksgiving. And sometimes, like I said, for Christmas, I did go home pretty late, like close to Christmas, I would get really sad.

[00:24:03] Angela Lin: But then I would like, kind of do a mental count in my head of like, oh, but I have like, you know, I have like a handful of other friends that are like from the west coast or whatever that also can’t go back and we can like do something together. So it would kind of make up a good portion of the like gap that I felt and what I should be feeling in joy at that time.

[00:24:25] Jesse Lin: Yeah. We always did like a friends giving when you still lived here. So that was, that was always awesome. And yeah, no, I agree. It is a, it is a really great opportunity to have these like chosen family kind of situations and chosen family events. And there’s honestly, there’s also nothing wrong with celebrating by yourself or doing whatever the fuck you want.

[00:24:45] Jesse Lin: Like, I just feel like it’s so um, to, to, to what we were saying about earlier about media representation and Hallmark and all that jazz, like, I feel like it’s so somehow like weird or rude to be by yourself over the holidays, or want to go to a bar and meet people over the holidays. Like, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

[00:25:05] Jesse Lin: Like if you’re by yourself and you have no friends and you want to meet somebody, you just go to a bar, that’s fine.

[00:25:11] Jesse Lin: I think this has been a very interesting episode and, uh, to continue the high note, we’re going to transition over to the Fortune Cookie cause we always like to end on a sweet treat. And since this episode is all about the holidays, we thought we would devote some time to discussing what our new year’s resolution, uh, will be for 202….

[00:25:32] Jesse Lin: God, Jesus Christ, 2022 oh my God. 2022, Angela do you have your resolution handy?

[00:25:47] Angela Lin: Well, the last episode we were, we’re one of our last episodes we were talking about taking risks and like doing new things. I think in general, we Ramon and I have been doing a lot of new things and like, we will be living in Asia for a lot of 2022. So I think it’s not like an end all be all new year’s resolution, because I think those are always like hyped up to be some like singular big goal or whatever, but for me, one of the, one of the resolutions I guess, is, uh, because we plan to spend a lot of time in Japan, like multiple months. Um, I do aspire to have at least like kindergarten level Japanese down so that I can get around and communicate with people.

[00:26:33] Jesse Lin: I’m sure you can do it. You just need to join one of those, like intercambio things. I know it’s not called intercambio but…

[00:26:38] Angela Lin: oh no, I’m going to be taking in-person classes. It’s like, I gotta, it’s motivating when you haven’t been able to speak, like, cause we lived in Japan for two months, um, a couple of years back and it was like very difficult to not speak any Japanese and it can be isolating in a lot of ways.

[00:26:57] Angela Lin: So I was very motivated to take like..

[00:27:01] Jesse Lin: Two months is really short though!

[00:27:04] Angela Lin: Is it Jesse, is it?

[00:27:06] Jesse Lin: To learn a new language, yeah?

[00:27:07] Angela Lin: Oh, I thought you meant two months is short to deal with the isolation.

[00:27:14] Jesse Lin: No, no. Oh. I mean like, I, I like to learn a new language in two months. No. That’s hard.

[00:27:21] Angela Lin: No, but I also wasn’t trying, I wasn’t trying back then either. It was like, I walked away with like the same 10 words I knew when I went there, but this time…

[00:27:30] Jesse Lin: Domo arigato mister roboto

[00:27:34] Angela Lin: 6 words! Um, but yeah, no, this time we’re going to be there. I think we’re trying to be there for like six months. So I want to be able to like, you know, order food and like you know.

[00:27:48] Jesse Lin: How about you?

[00:27:51] Jesse Lin: I think my, I think my resolution last year was to keep all the good habits I made during the quarantine. And, um, I don’t know, there’s a lot of like stuff happening this year and a lot of personal feelings stuff happening. So I feel like maybe what I need to do is to be nicer to myself in 2022.

[00:28:18] Jesse Lin: I don’t know. Like, I feel like, okay. Yeah. I just feel like I’ve been, maybe I’ve been a little bit too difficult on myself, or like setting too difficult expectations and goals and stuff like that. And I just want to be kinder to myself in the next year.

[00:28:36] Angela Lin: I like that. And also you’ve done big things this year.

[00:28:39] Angela Lin: You switched jobs, you’ve met some of those goals that I think you’ve set for yourself so that you can take it easy.

[00:28:46] Jesse Lin: Yeah. And I want to just like, I feel like I’m that kind of person where I’m like, okay, hit the goal. And I’m like, cool, I’m there – next thing. But I want to like celebrate that now. Right?

[00:28:55] Jesse Lin: Cause I’m like, oh my God, I did it. Like, it should be something that I feel like really jazzed about, so I’m trying to like work on that.

[00:29:02] Angela Lin: Well, listeners write us in with your new years resolution or write us in about the main topic that we talked about, which is if you’ve ever felt sad or lonely during this time, or have a rant about how it’s annoying.