Jesse Lin 0:19
Hello, I’m Jesse Lin.
Angela Lin 0:21
And I’m Angela Lin. And welcome back to another episode of But Where Are You Really From?
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Jesse Lin 0:26
This week, I’m really excited to announce we have another guest for Asians Doing Cool Shit. As you can imagine, over quarantine, I had a lot of nothing to do. So during this time, I really dive deep into YouTube. And I found that Sasha Velour, put up a video of basically a combination of all her Nightgown shows. And that’s where I saw all these amazing entertainers, including our special guest this week, and Untitled Queen, and really wanted to bring you on the show to talk about your experience with drag and just being a bi-racial person, individual in general. So please let us know what you’re all about. And when you get a chance, let us know how you would answer the question. But where are you really from?
Untitled Queen 1:15
Thank you so much. First of all, for having me. I’m super excited and also excited by the subject matter of your podcast and all the people that you’ve interviewed. So my name is Untitled Queen. I’m also known as Matthew DeLeon. But I so they’re sort of, they’re interchangeable for me. But I think a lot of people who meet me now and in my community, drag community, they call me Untitled, whether I’m in or out of drag. So where am I really from? I am a child of an immigrant father from the so called Philippines. And I am my mother, a child of my mother, who is her grandparents or her parents, my grandparents were from Boriquen, which is so called Puerto Rico. And I was born on Governors Island in New York, so called Governors Island, New York, which was originally called, which is actually called Paggank. And I currently reside on the stolen land of the Lenape – Lenapehoking – the so called Brooklyn, New York. I feel like you know, all these things I you know, which I think are really interesting, which have a lot to do, I think with my work and what I’m really interested in, in my art and life are about challenging and, and thinking about what identity is, and the more and more I think about it, the more dissolved it becomes and the more fluid and the more it changes all the time. So I think it’s a really interesting question. I feel like I have a different answer for every day, probably like every other hour, I think I’m like, oh, there’s something new or there’s something different. And I’m so you know, I’m an interdisciplinary artist, and I use drag sculpture, performance installation and writing poetry. And, as I said, I’m really interested in thinking about identity, but in its again, formless. And then and then sort of something that like, comes together, but not at the same time, sort of like coming together and coming apart at the same time. And so really challenging, thinking about these things about where we are coming from, but then also how I establish who I am based on myself and based on who I interact with and my community. So those are really the kind of main interests of of the work I do. And I’m really interested in sort of emotive, you know, intense performances that are storytelling. So I really, I really think of myself as an artist that that tells stories.
Angela Lin 3:58
I want to circle back on the way that you introduce yourself in the beginning or the where you’re from part. So I noticed you said so called a lot and stolen land and I feel like there’s definitely an interplay there with the way that you think about identity as well. So I’m curious why it’s important to you to emphasize those things and what you hope you know people take away from that.
Untitled Queen 5:00
Sure, I guess one thing I didn’t think I mentioned about some of the work I’m doing now or thinking about, I think a lot about decolonization now. And it’s sort of this, I guess, challenging. You know, colonized world, America being, for me being an American, being a European colony that, you know, is on stolen indigenous land. And then also being from and I call, I actually learned to learn this sort of term about so called from my indigenous friends, indigenous community, because the names given to these places are from colonizers, they’re not the actual names. So Puerto Rico, and Philippines are named by their Spanish colonizers. And kind of interestingly enough, like the more researching, like, Puerto Rico and the Philippines were both colonized by the Spanish crowd around actually the same year, around roughly the same time, and then also were colonized by America, also around the same time, very, very, very interesting. So I feel like dismantling that part, dismantling colonization is for me, one of the starting points is to understand like how the language has been used to try to categorize and to erase basically your language and erase, erase who you are. So, and I take this point of erasure, as a point of imagination, a point of departure, so I sort of subvert the sort of erasure, through drag through invention, through through self determination, you know, being an part of the LGBTQIA community growing up, I was always fighting that, and that was always a big interest in my artwork, you know, really trying to find pride and where I fit in, and, and like a community within that that’s always fighting against these things that have been taught through control oppression and religious institutions, institutionalized, you know, homophobia, transphobia, etc, etc.
Jesse Lin 7:09
Very interesting answer.
Angela Lin 7:10
Awesome. Thank you for explaining that.
Untitled Queen 7:13
I just I know, it’s like a lot. I have a lot to say. But for me, it’s like an I think it’s a really interesting conversation. I think that all all, you know, POC culture is in some way, is it’s a way of doing this because the world is affected by the white supremacy and the forces of European colonization from hundreds of years ago. So in some ways, I think we all have a piece of it and are doing it, and, and reclaiming and understanding who we are outside of what these other people told us who we are and tried to, like, suppress, and like watered down and dilute all this shit. And it’s in everything, which is, which is interesting, because people think, I don’t know, that white supremacy is like, these very extreme things. But it’s really like, you know, and I feel like in every aspect of life, it really, is really present. So, and it’s not something I know, I’ve figured out or that I have all the answers to, but I think it’s a really interesting question. And for me, I think my work fits fits into that process.
Angela Lin 8:25
I’m curious, how deeply you feel connected with each of your sides of like your upbringing, and sure, were you able to visit each of the islands that your parents are respectively from growing up?
Untitled Queen 8:42
I have only gone to Puerto Rico once and I’ve never been to the Philippines. And I actually did a project you know, because it has become such an interest of mine. But like, the three years ago, I was like, I had a whole thing about islands because I was born on an island and my parents are from islands, which I’ve never put together. And I was like, you know, that’s an interesting thing. Like, you know, how how I identify with, both, I feel like you know, as I said, when I was younger, there was just so many more Filipinos around and they were like, they were our family friends and like, there was just so much more of that like Filipino barbecue, there was a lot of cultural event kind of thing going on and livelihood and community there that I don’t think I’ve gotten until actually now in the nightlife scene. There have been a lot more bigger expressions of Asian diaspora. So parties like bubbleT, which are incredible. And also my friend, Emi Grate who does a show called A+ drag show that gathers Asian performers of the diaspora. So I sort of has a rekindling a little bit of that in those spaces, but there when I was young was much more, it was just my lived experience. And it wasn’t I wouldn’t didn’t think about it. Um, but then also, I just feel like I’m connected because of my immediate family. And that’s it, whom I’m around, but and then the same thing with I guess, with Puerto Rico, definitely. The same thing, I guess, more of my nightlife community, you know, there’s a lot of, I guess, if they would call themselves Latinx – you know I’m not for the term of Latinx either, because I identify that as another colonial term, so I’m just trying to figure out like, however they identify, but, but there are also a lot of those spaces that are brought together, but one of one of my great friends Horrorchata, Mexican, she puts on a show called Yes, Mama, which is a great space for you know, Latinx music, Latinx performance. So I feel like that’s how I’ve kind of connect, connected but a lot of my family don’t, I don’t live close to them anymore. They’re like in Florida, or, or whatnot. So they’re mentally here in New York.
Jesse Lin 11:08
So I mean, obviously, you’re very clearly passionate about drag and putting on these shows. So tell us like, what this drag mean to you? Like, how did you build your identity into drag or have drag as part of your identity?
Untitled Queen 11:26
Um, so I feel like, I feel like I’ve always been doing drag, and I just was like, one of the last people to know. When I was in, so I went to graduate school at Parsons in fine art, and a teacher of mine there would often say, I did these drawings of like figures. And he was like, oh, these don’t look like women or people they look like drag queens. And I was like, that’s not I don’t understand what you’re saying. And then I remember and I tell the story often that this teacher Anthony, Anthony Aziz, I give him credit because he knew. I remember we walked by this Halloween store, which is now close due to COVID really sad. Um, you know, it’s like this epic huge Halloween store with all you know, it’s 24-seven all year round Halloween store. But I remember we were walking by to go to his studio as a class and then he looked at this mannequin that was in this like nurse’s outfit and he was like, this should be you and I was like, what do you mean me and he’s like, you should be you like this. Like you go to parties as like a personality and you’re dressed up. And I was like, that’s not me at all. And then like cut to probably probably like three four years later and like that’s like all I do. Um, but he was like, no like a Leigh Bowery thing. And like so in, in graduate school, I was doing a lot of costume performance, like for video. And that’s what I that’s what I was doing, but I didn’t think of it necessarily as drag. But when I, when I came into drag, my best one my best friends in school with me, sound artist, she was a DJ for nightlife. And she was like, you should try this once. And I was like, I don’t know. And then I was like, Okay, fine. So then, I had a few friends that you know, I didn’t really know anyone in the scene other than her but she wasn’t really into Brooklyn drag, she knew Manhattan people and then, um, then I just got my feet wet and then it just like lit me up inside because drag – so I’m interdisciplinary artists and really different mediums to tell stories and drag, like, put it all together. It was like, ding, light ball because I was like, drag is not just it’s like a call it sometimes I used to call it social sculpture, which is a super annoying, like, high art term, but like, you know, it’s like sculpture, performance, drawing, media, internet media, and interaction and performance, like all together all at once. You know, it’s that’s what’s so exciting about it. And it’s a it’s a literal construction and deconstruction, of identity and flux all the time, which makes for me makes so much sense. And you you’re always doing it you know, now people you know, say like, you know, life is drag, you know, drag really points to identity as a construction and you know, for me is very interesting, you know, we talk about gender as a construction and you know, a lot of these identities and colonialism is a construction and so drag really plays with that subverts it makes fun of it, it allows you to do manifest, whatever you envision, which is very empowering, as an art form. This is why I think it’s one of the most radical and exciting art forms going on right now. And, and is what I love about is that it’s a community based art form, in the sense that I – it doesn’t exist, at least not for me by itself. To me, it can’t just be like a drag queen and you’re standing in a room and that’s it. You have to like it comes from a community to come to watch you to have a bartenders to have patrons to have a DJ to have a club or to be outside or you know all this or have a festival. You know, it relies on an interconnectivity that is wonderful, and terrible and crazy and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Angela Lin 15:14
So changing gears a little bit, but related to your passion around this and the community that you’ve built is, you know, your upbringing, you mentioned that you had a really happy childhood. And it sounds good. It sounds like then you probably had a very loving family structure. And so, you know, one of the reasons we brought you on is that our or sub-tract we consistently have on this podcast is Asians doing cool shit, right? It’s this concept of like, finding other Asians that are doing things or not like the traditional expected career paths, or what immigrant parents think was going to be a signal of success. So I’m curious what your parents thought of you going into art at large. And then once you just like, once you were realized, like drag is a really interesting way for you to express yourself through art like, how supportive have they been of that?
Untitled Queen 16:12
Sure, it’s a great question. I have to say, I feel really fortunate that I have a very supportive family. And so I’m the youngest of five. And my parents have always been very supportive with me. Um, but it’s not, I feel like also, I don’t know if either of you, or people you’ve talked to have a similar experience, I think, because I was at the tail end of the children’s cycle that, like, they were much less strict. And I and I was also very, very good. Like, I was very well behaved. And also, like, all my, all my siblings were like, my parents. So I had, like, a lot of love, a lot of care, a lot of, you know, help and support. And so I think by that time, my father was a, you know, but my parents have always been very supportive of me. But, you know, they were always, I think like with a lot of immigrants, but also POC families are very practical, especially my father. You know, because it’s so ingrained in them, and also in the pursuit of, you know, quote, unquote, American dream. And also, like, the work ethic is incredible. From from them, those communities, especially both of my parents, but I, it’s funny, because I don’t think they would think of themselves as artists, I think they always thought there was a sort of weird. So my next eldest sister and myself were really into art, but they were kind of like, where’d you get this from, but my parents are, like, very creative, they would never consider it, but like, I learned it all from them, my mother was like an installation artist through the home, she every element in the home was very, very important that it like, she had a very amazing sense of design. And like, every season was a time to change the house and to change all the decorations, and to change the environment, and a very big gardener. And so the aesthetic, and sort of emotional impact of an environment comes from her. And my father was a super DIY person maker, you know, he’s the person that like, love to do home construction, like, we wanted a three car garage, I can make them myself, I’ll do it. And so he would, you know, he would like patch together bungee cords and like wood and like, figure out how to do it himself, and like rent a truck tractor and like, you know, all in flip flops, you know, like, he’s just like, hardcore, hardcore, you know, like, I’m Filipino work ethic and worked two jobs for years and years, and years, and years and years. And, you know, he worked really hard to trying to do it so that we didn’t have to, I never wanted for anything. I’m very, very lucky, very fortunate. And so yeah, I think, and when I was gonna go to art school, and I do graphic design as my, that was awesome in my undergraduate degree, so that’s sort of my day job. And so they’ve always been supportive. I think my dad and my mom was like, as long as you’re able to support yourself and your eating, then by doing that, then, you know, we support you and my mom is very into the drag part. Where in my family, not that my dad isn’t, but my mom is, you know, especially when I was starting, she’d be like, so what is it that you’re wearing? I don’t know if I like this looks very specific about what she like, it was very cute. And I realized, like, I’m very fortunate and I love them dearly. And I think, you know, especially in the communities I have many queer communities don’t have the support of their families, not because they go to art school but because of who they are, um, and so, you know, I considered myself really lucky in having a very, you know, happy childhood adulthood. And that my pursuit of these things was never an issue for them.
Jesse Lin 20:17
When you say speaking of different kinds of pressures when you joined, what’s like, once you start entering the drag world, did you feel unwelcome in any way because of your biracial background? Or were there any, like barriers to entry that you faced because you were a biracial individual?
Unknown Speaker 20:37
Um, no, I would not. I mean, no, I think because Brooklyn was brown. I mean, a lot of Brooklyn was brown, I mean, my best friends that were creating the scene were Mary Cherry, and you know, big black, amazing drag queen and Horrochata, you know, who were running, you know, running, making shows. Um, but I will say that when I was around, I felt like I was only one for years. Didn’t know, didn’t encounter other drag Asian drag queens in my, in shows for a very long time. So it was kind of like, oh, I’ll be like, the only Asian drag queen and more and more have come to Brooklyn and I feel like the sort of second wave of what we call the second wave of Brooklyn drag had a big influx of Asian artists so West Dakota, Emi Grate, Sookie Sterling, Queen Kirlia there’s more I know I’m missing a bunch but so they and then again these parties bubblT. And then there was one called oni gashi mas. And it wasn’t that great. Um, and so they so these really started to center more Asian artists, collectives, etc. But for a while it’s sort of the lone, lone Asian queen.
Angela Lin 22:09
I’d love to dig into that a little bit more because I don’t know Well, yeah, I’m so I’m more like coming from it from like, outside perspective. I’ve been to drag shows, but I’m not. It’s not like I’m not huge in the scene, versus like, Jesse’s watched every episode of drag race. Huge on drag. And so I don’t know how many people who aren’t as familiar with know that there is this Asian community within drag? Because I think you know, there are so many stereotypes of what, what Asian people do what scenes they are in or not in, and I don’t know how many people know that there’s like a growing sizable, like Asian drag community. So I’d love to learn more about like your experience within that and like, is it is it a lot of Asian Americans are there like Asians from Asia? Is it like what do they bring that’s a little different from what else you’re saying in the broader drag?
Untitled Queen 23:08
Oh, it’s a it’s a lovely mix. And I have to say, so Emi Grate. That’s my friend. She’s Burmese so she’s from Myanmar. And I don’t know when she immigrated here but she emigrated but I remember I think the first A+ that she had me and I it was stunning to me because maybe this was like I was maybe four years in to performing and we had a little basement we were all getting ready. Wayne Newton that’s another one – Drag King so I say drag artists because I’m talking about nonbinary drag queen drag king all of it – so it’s not just about drag queens for me but when I remember going there and we were all getting ready and just like you know we call it kiking hanging out talking um, I was like wow, I’ve never been in a room the drag room with more than one other Asian drag person artist that was about to perform I might be might have luckily maybe been with one other one but not not four or five of us and I was like really stunned really amazed it felt really beautiful and like and very diverse because you know we talked about the diaspora for Asia is huge and covering so many different languages so many different cultures and and so it’s pretty wide you know, so Sina is from China I believe so I’ll get it all fucked up and they’re gonna like hate me but but I would say was pretty diverse. Anyways then again I’m not always sure between like between like Asian America and oh Pearl Pearl Harbor is also is one other drag drag artists and I put She’s an immigrant drag artist. And they bring a lot of that into their work. I mean, it’s kind of impossible, you know, not to, you know, it’s we bring ourselves to our works, but I think, what is incredible, especially like, Emi Grate, you know, they would choose Asian singing songs, and we talk a lot about, you know, Pearl Harbor does incredible work with like, a lot of the props and things would be like suitcases, and, and like knee pads, and like, lots of like, various cultural references, like, between, like, Americanized westernized ideas of like glamour and beauty, and sort of the disconnect and dissonance, and that’s a subject I think, a lot of their work and they’re also a poet. So I feel like it’s pretty varied and exciting because it’s not really one monolithic. It’s not like this one group is just Chinese performers are or it’s just Filipinos or, or whatnot, and people have varying degrees of cultural experience as far as like, they maybe they grew up with a lot of Filipinos or, you know, they have that big community or if you’re, if they’re also biracial, I feel like a lot of a lot of ones that are also are also biracial, like white and Asian, etc. So yeah, it’s exciting and cool, but then also to be have some, some sort of corporate mainstream, you know, representation – Jujubee, Manila, Manila is like a big inspiration for me when I was first starting drag. She was a drag race clean on season two, three, and, you know, big Filipino Queen, and, you know, she’s the first runner up.
Jesse Lin 26:47
So maybe one thing cuz you you’ve done a lot of drag shows you’ve been in drag for a while, what’s something that you picked up during drag that you something that was unexpected that you learned or gained from through drag that you were like, I didn’t know that I was gonna come by this, this skill, or this insight or this knowledge,
Untitled Queen 27:07
Oh, my God, all all of it. I was petrified of ever being on a mic. I thought I could never entertain people, for sustained people and, or for sustained period of time. Never thought I mean, think that’s what was transformative about drag. For me, it’s why I encourage people if you have any interest in it, so just try it once. Because the thing about drag as an art form is that it tests it, it shows you that you can go beyond limits that your preconceived limits that you put on yourself. And that’s wonderful. And that’s why I’m saying it undoes all these preconceived things. So so for myself that really show and I also, what was, what’s exciting about it for me is that it opened up, like what I could do with it, I didn’t have to just like, put on some sort of sparkly dress, and just like, you know, do what everyone else was doing, I could do, I could put into it, what I thought was interesting, you know, some like, you know, sad 90 songs, and then like, you know, a poem from here or something from like, the dollar store, and then other narratives and like, I can really make it my own. That’s what was super exciting about it. For me, that’s what I think I realized that like, drag was a real, like I said, I almost call it like a combiner. Or like a, like a garbage can dumpster trap, where like, I could throw everything I wanted, that I was interested in, and then like light it on fire. And so it’s just like poof, so it’s really been a liberating medium for me and that way, but yeah, like we learn a lot about yourself, but limits, you know, you really think I could never do this. Like you can, you actually can really surprise yourself by, by what you can do. And by what you can challenge yourself. So I think and what’s exciting about drag is you can do it as many times as you want in many, many different ways as you want. And that’s really, really exciting.
Angela Lin 29:03
Well, I think that that kind of like free spirit and making do with what you have is a great kind of segue into our close, our Fortune Cookie. Yeah, that’s our closing section name because we always like to end on a sweet treat. So, we would love to ask you what advice you have for people who want to dabble in drag or other creative artistic forms given your experience.
Untitled Queen 29:32
Oh my gosh, so I’ve got lots of advice. Okay, number one. Number one is if you want to, don’t go to don’t pay for a graduate degree in a creative art. But otherwise, I mean, in the nice in the cool, like non institutional stuff that’s like, you know, I think focus on things that are fun. You know, like art should be fun and like i think you know, things about institutionalized learning especially like art, education, things are so hell bent on life sucking the life out of a lot of it. And that’s why I think nightlife is a real was a real space that opened it up for me because the difference between nightlife in the art world is not that different. There’s a lot of networking, a lot of art making. But the fun, that’s the difference, art world stuff is not fun, going to going to fucking openings, networking as they call it, they call it networking. Meeting with curators, they teach you to do an elevator pitch, all that kind of shit is so boring. It’s so stupid. It’s so and they also a lot of American art education really teaches you to do it. It’s a very solo endeavor. It’s never – and one lesson, I try to, you know, share with people’s that I had an amazing Professor Barry Rosenberg, in my undergraduate art history class was saying, you know, a lot of people will teach you how to make art, you know how to draw how to do this, but they never teach you who to to make it with. And that has really stuck with me because when I entered into graduate school, I had a community that’s why you know, the other students, but then when I entered nightlife, that was another one. Where, wow, we were making art together. And it wasn’t, you know, we’re still competitive, but it’s not like, you’re only taught to just, it’s only just about you, it has – that’s what I’m saying, it works because you’re in conversation with with other people. And the thing about drag, why, like I really, I love it, and why I encourage people to try it to and like kids that are starting it now. I say kids, you can be any age to do it. But I say kids, like if you’re young, young doing it, but I’m saying is to enjoy it. Because people like everywhere, you know, especially through mainstream culture, really try and treat drag as a business and it can be, but it’s really like, it’s fucking fun. Like, go out with your friends. And this is for anybody, not just drag, but like, if you’re making art, you’re in a creative, like, meet up with your friends go out, do things like really like, you know, spend time in each other’s houses, write stuff, do prompts together to like, workshops, do like, you know, do your makeup at your friend’s house, like those are the best memories I’ll ever have. And that kind of approach to it. You will. And I think a lot of people say this about things what they start when they start at the very beginning of these pursuits, because they’re not really thinking about all this ways about how is it going to make money, how’s it going to build my career, because it’s a kind of unthinking thing. And the thing about drag, that was a surprise, I didn’t think of it as I also just did not call it my art, I used to just be like, I’m just trying this thing. And then it was like, whoa, this is it. My art is everything that I’m doing, and whether it’s drag or not, like it’s just a part of my whole toolkit. So I really just encourage people to really find what you think is really fun. And really explore that and try not to just think about it in capitalist terms about making money or about your productivity. People are very, very obsessed, including myself to like, how much are you making? How much are you know, how much are you creating? How much are you doing this? And there’s a lot of that pressure that really devalues you know, puts value on things that are not important.
Jesse Lin 33:10
Thank you so much for for coming. We got it all. Would you like to talk to listeners where we can find you? And if you have any projects you want, you’re working on that you want to plug?
Untitled Queen 33:20
Oh my gosh, okay, um, like, How much time do we have? Um, you can find me as Untitled Queen on Instagram. And then also my website is also UntitledQueen.com. Um, right now, I have a show coming up. And I’m doing a performance for that. And it’s also about cultural ancestors, because we’re doing a performance about writing a new poem called Singing Telegram from a Siren that I’m premiering that night and it’s all about like, thinking about sirens, me imagining sirens as being our ancestors that like fought against colonial ships making them crash and die on the on the so called Philippines and the so called Puerto Rican shores. So I started this poem about a conversation between me – an apartment buzzer conversation between me and this like singing telegram from one of them.
Angela Lin 34:20
Will it be recorded? Will they be able to watch it?
Untitled Queen 34:23
Yes, I’ll be I’ll be sharing it. So I’m pre recording this performance and I’ll be able to share it so you can look out for that my Singing Telegram from the Siren will be available if you want to catch that.
Angela Lin 34:31
Yeah, perfect.
Untitled Queen 34:33
Thank you.
Angela Lin 34:34
Well, if you have questions for Untitled Queen or you have questions, comments, feedback on this episode, you can also write us in telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com – the YOU’RE is Y-O-U-R-E, we can connect you with Untitled or pass along at anything that you want. And reminder that we are still looking for listener stories submissions, so write us in about your experience with either this topic or whatever you want. And come back next week because we’ll have another fresh episode for you then.