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Asian Americans Reflect on the Value of Higher Education


Jesse Lin 0:26
This week, we are talking about education, specifically the importance of, of education in the Asian American community, and the kind of really multiple underlining of a specific kind of education path for, let’s say, first generation born Asian Americans. So I will kick off and say that my perspective on education because I actually recently had this conversation with my parents, from our parents perspective has always been to try to like put us into the position where we have to like work as little as possible, like, as little menial work as possible. Because I recently asked them about this, like, you know, you can make a good amount of money being like a plumber, or like an electrician, like stuff that doesn’t require you to go into an academic institution, like a university, like you could go to a trade school. And I asked them, like, why didn’t you guys present these as options? You know, for me to think about while I was growing up, and they’re like, well, it’s not like, we didn’t want you to explore those things. But we wanted you to be able to go to college, which seems like it seems like the only segue into a career that doesn’t require any physical work. And so they were saying, like, largely, we just wanted to prevent you from having to do a lot of physical work when you’re older. Because I think that they did a lot of those kinds of, and I think my parents still do some some like very menial, like very labor intensive jobs. What are your thoughts?


Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)


Angela Lin 2:04
Yeah, I think I agree with what you said, I think there’s kind of two main facets that jumped out at me about why education is so important for Asian people. So I know you mentioned Asian Americans, and there is definitely like a slight nuance between Asian American and just Asian mentality in general. But I think Asian Asians, you know, Asia, Asians care a lot about education as well. But um, for us, Asian Americans, I think you’re right in that like a lot of our parents who immigrated here were not, you know, super well off when they were growing up in Asia. And they had to do a lot of manual labor type things to get by. Like, I remember my mom always tells the story that when she was in high school, she had to – she took High School is like, night classes or something, because daytime, she had to go help our grandma go sell stuff in the farmers market, to help make ends meet. So it’s like, things like that, that they don’t want to make us have to do. So they gravitate towards kind of the like, other extreme of like, well, that happened because of circumstance. And we are family was in that circumstance, because we weren’t able to get that like white collar jobs. And the way to get white collar jobs is to get as educated as possible. Right? So they push us towards that end. So I definitely agree, a lot of it is like to help us avoid the like more laborious parts of their own upbringings. The other side of it, I think, is bragging rights. Like I think a lot of it has to do with bringing honor and like something respectable towards your family at large. So being able to tell friends and family like oh, my son or daughter is a doctor or like a lawyer or some high powered business person or whatever, right? Or, like my mom say everything is talking about like, oh, you know, this ai-yi’s daughter just took her on this expensive vacation in Europe like, you know, those kinds of things. And you it’s like, it makes them happy to be able to kind of like brag about those things. And you’re only able to have things worth bragging about from like a career standpoint, if you are making enough money, which to your point can come from one of these trade things like plumbing and whatever, but like most people, at least in Asian culture associated more with like the white collar aspect of things where that money is coming from life.

Jesse Lin 4:48
Yeah, and I am very curious about another point you brought up which is like Asians in Asia, valuing education because we know for sure that they do, but I’m always really curious about like, how, how the more modern Asian people think of education because like our parents is like perspective of education is very, I want to say it’s like basic, but it is pretty basic. It’s rudimentary. Like, it’s kind of like college, and then you’re golden. But in reality, we know like, there are specific ceilings that you hit where you might actually need to do post grad and like further education and all that. And, for example, one of my mom’s friends who’s wealthy, sent her son to go to NYU. And so I’ve always I was looking at that being like, wow, that’s like a significant investment. And like, what are you expecting to get out of that necessarily? Like, if it’s just the cachet of saying that you went to a western university or you actually think that there’s some kind of learning or I’ve heard from some people that some kind of like learning advantage, like something more, let’s say a critical thinking analytical versus like rote memorization, or I’ve just heard some people say that the education is just easier to do here.

Angela Lin 6:05
Oh, my God is so much to unpack from what you just said. So much to unpack. Yeah, I know, that was a big bomb, I think there are just a lot of everything in what you just said, um, yes, there is a cache of the western brand. There’s also, college is often seen college or grad school, sending your kid abroad is often seen as the ticket to getting them citizenship, because then you can get, um, you know, sponsored by a company in the US and then work your way towards citizenship. So that’s definitely a big reason. And then what you said about, maybe it’s easier, I do think it is easier. But it’s just pretty cutthroat in Asia, and like growing up, going back to Taiwan every few years, I would see the like, intensity that my cousins would have to go through with schooling. They were just in school all day, it was like you’d spend all day in real school. And then you go to like night school that you would bu-shi-ban so like, you know, the like prep school to help, like, enhance their studies, and they would study all night until like, 11pm, or whatever. And they do that every day. And I’m like, What the hell? And then I was talking to my cousin about it one time and they basically were like, studying is everything because you the way you test determines your future in your life.

Jesse Lin 7:51
Well, let’s walk back to one of the things I was asking you about because like I was saying, you know, my parents don’t really have a conception past college, what studying looks like and you did go to grad school. So do you want to tell our listeners what it was like to talk to your parents about going to grad school? Were there any hang ups where they kind of like, what is this thing all about?

Angela Lin 9:13
No, I think that was an easy sell. Because it’s not like I was like, I want to go to grad school to study poetry. Like I was like, I want to go to business school again because I did undergrad school already. I was like, I want to go to my get my MBA so that I can make more money. So it’s like, like, it aligns with stuff they understand. And also at that point, like, I was an adult, where I had already gone into the workforce and like made my own money, not that much money because I worked in TV and barely had any money saved. But at that point, it wasn’t like I was going to them to be like, I want to go to school again and I need your help to like have money. It was more like I’m going to school again, just letting you know. Like I’m going to take out a loan and it’s fine. So, no, that wasn’t hard for them to understand. And also because my brother has been in school like his whole life. So compared to him, they’re just like, well, you already worked like when we know you can find a job because he had his like, PhD is basically like always schooling. So they already had that concept of like, continued education.

Jesse Lin 10:24
I always forget about that your brother did school forever, but do you think that they understand the purpose of it, like they understand? Maybe like the purpose, the difficulty and the payout, or they’re kind of just like, because you have a very good grasp on it. And you were kind of just like, this is what I’m gonna do. And, you know, just for you to know, they were kind of just like, whatever about it.

Angela Lin 10:47
I think they cared about the purpose and the potential outcome, but I don’t think anyone really understands like, the amount of effort or anything, it unless you do it yourself, like just getting in to a business school and especially like a top business school is so fucking hard. And then like, you know, lasting during those two years, and recruiting whatever was like so, so, so hard, and it’s really hard to describe that. Unless you do it yourself. So no, no way they understood like the difficulty level, but they understood the purpose. But I think it was always like, almost with everything that I’ve done in my life, like, I’ll propose, like, I’m gonna do this thing to do X to, like, have this type of result. And they kind of like are a little bit like suspicious. They’re like, okay, until they like, see the result. And they’re like, oh, I get it. Well, okay, so what do you think you actually got out of your schooling? Your NYU degree? Do you feel like it was worth it compared, especially to the cost? Because we haven’t discussed this that much. But like, fuck, the main of huge difference between us versus Asia is the student loan, the cost of education and whether or not that’s worth it?

Jesse Lin 12:06
I think what I didn’t particularly like about going to college in at NYU is that, I don’t know, I felt a little not supported in the environment. And obviously, it’s like a campus in those cities. Like, there’s a lot of stuff happening. But I didn’t feel like there was a good way to navigate those four years as a way to explore what I wanted to do. And I don’t, the environment did not encourage me to explore as much as I wanted to. Because I was just kind of like, Oh, well, here’s the track, it seems really difficult to move things around, I don’t have a lot of flexibility. So I’m just gonna keep running the track.

Angela Lin 12:46
And then when you ran the track, when you ran through the track?

Jesse Lin 12:51
I’m like eff that I don’t want to do that. Yeah, like, so I, I got to the third year of my program, where you have to do internship. And I did an internship at a hotel because at the time, I thought I wanted to do operations, like I’ve talked about this, like General Manager poopah thing. And I thought it was terrible. It was terrible, like, having to work a longer period of time there. And like talking to the staff, I was like, This is not like it, I will be fired, like in maybe a week or two after I get hired. So I, at that point, it was kind of like too late. I was like, Oh, crap, like what I’m going to do, because I’m already all the way basically through the program, and I can’t change. So then I had to find a way like within what I was studying, to pivot to something that spoke to a little bit more what I wanted to do, but was still in the realm so I didn’t have to like wing my way out of the program. So I ended up like concentrating and marketing and revenue management. And I did like a minor in web development. So that I could get some kind of like, like, move into like, more like an analytical like, not talking to people role, but still have that industry knowledge and take that to enter the workforce. I do think that it was it’s nice to have the first at least few classes you take to be general education. And I know that like when I was doing it, I was like, Oh, poor general education, like this kind of sucks. But this was the opportunity, opportunity to actually explore and study things that were not part of what I was, my major was or what I thought my major was going to be. And I found those classes to be a very, very interesting because it’s just stuff that I’ve never, never thought about before, never looked at before. And also really, really important to building like critical thinking and having a measured approach to thinking about new topics and being able to learn how to learn basically, that’s the biggest thing I learned how to learn in college.

Angela Lin 15:02
Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because there is a mindset shift in, at least in the US between schooling up through high school versus in college. The big shift in higher education in the US is that it’s your time to think and there’s more answers that are correct. That can be correct, then, when you’re in high school, where it’s really more about, like memorizing, and just like knowing what the one answer is, I found that shift pretty hard actually, is, especially because like Irvine, where we grew up Orange County’s education system, at least when we were growing up was very good. But it was very, like, this is the track, you go on, you know, like, you just memorize these things and like, get good at memorizing love. And like, you’ll do well. Versus like, yeah, being called on in class randomly, and just being like, what, what do you think? It’s like, oh, I don’t know, what do I think? You know what I mean?

Jesse Lin 16:10
And it’s, it’s all really like, it’s all – like, like you mentioned, there are like some answers that are wrong, but like, provided that you can speak your thoughts with some proof points, like, almost any answer is correct. And I think that was like a really hard thing to wrap around to really move from what you were saying, which is like, you’re not really thinking for yourself. You’re thinking what other people thought previously in high school. And to move from that to independently thinking about something and like formulating your own analysis of something was very difficult. But rewarding!

Angela Lin 16:47
Yes, and not just thinking for yourself, which is apparently very hard to learn how to do as children going into adulthood, but also learning to be brave enough to speak your mind. Because that is not something that you learn to do in, in high school and before, right, especially when you don’t know what everyone else thinks. And you are kind of like putting out a new perspective that other people might like boo, or like, you know, or clap, clap and applaud you, because you don’t know until you see it. And I do think that is a good life skill to give people to prep you for real life, especially like work environments, because especially with like meetings with a ton of people and like, if you have a different perspective than others, you need to be able to be brave enough to like, speak your mind and say something that other people might not agree with, if it’s the best thing to be done. So I think college started that for me, but Business School in particular, definitely, like really solidified that for me. Yeah, because it was, well, business school can be pretty cutthroat. So it’s not as bad as like law school where, at least from what I see from TV, fake law school, right? It looks freaking crazy. But Business School is also kind of cutthroat. So you have to like learn to like stand your ground and like fight for what you think. And I think that was really useful.

Jesse Lin 18:25
Do you feel okay, well, we both went to what people would call label-conscious schools. Do you feel like there was an advantage? Like any kind of specific advantage and going to a ming-pai school versus, you know, local college or even a community college?

Angela Lin 18:47
Yes, I know. I think the location of our brand name school was almost more important than the name of the brand name school. My experience, and I don’t know if you experience, but every internship, every job interview I had, when I was still in New York, it would be like, Oh, I went to NYU. And they’d be like, cool so did I like no one cares. They feel like that’s almost like negative points if you also want you because they’re sick of hearing that you went to NYU versus when you’re outside of New York, people care a little bit more. They’re like, Oh, that sounds cool. Because like, I don’t meet that many people from NYU. Um, so I think it was more the location that helps than the brand name.

Jesse Lin 19:28
Yeah, I think the location is super important. And I feel like my money sure it it definitely bought some education that helped me to learn how to think critically, but mostly it bought contacts, like contacts with faculty because like I was in a very specific program, and so the, the faculty were all basically practicing, meaning that they’re like still working the industry in some capacity. They have lots of connections with people and so on. A lot of the experience was just being able to schmooze with your professors in those environments where other people who are able to give you a leg up, like give you a recommendation, give you a job, we’re present. And, yeah, I feel very strongly about that. Because before I graduated, like, literally two weeks before I graduated, I still did not have a job. And I went to a professor, and I was literally being like, please help me like, I don’t have a job, I don’t know what to do. And she set me up with an interview. So I do feel really strongly that part of the money just paid for access to that network.

Angela Lin 21:15
Yeah, that’s interesting. And that makes a lot of sense for your niche that you were in. I didn’t have any contacts that helps me coming out of NYU because I didn’t want to do what everyone wanted to do. Like, I went to Stern Business School. But at the time, I did not want to do finance. Everyone who wants to Stern Business School undergrad wanted to do investment banking. And I was like, I have zero interest in doing investment banking. I wanted to work in the music industry. So I was out there like hustling, finding my own contacts, like forcing my way into record labels and stuff. So I didn’t get any contacts out of my very expensive NYU experience. But I do what you were talking about resonates with me for Business School, like my MBA Business School, because Booth has a really strong network of alumni. So it’s not the faculty per se, but it is like the people come out of the school are top executives kind of everywhere. So and there is like a kinship that people have with the Booth network. So, so that definitely works. Or like that. Sounds more like, familiar to me for my MBA experience. And then I will say I think the name brand, honestly, was more for me for Booth, Chicago Booth, it definitely like puts you in, you know, gives you some halo effect for sure. So I think the brand name made a difference, because that’s a higher education choice, though. I think it is like there’s a difference between undergrad versus grad school because grad school is like you made a choice to spend more money and to stop earning money to go get your grad degrees. So like that grad degree better be worth it. Okay, so we’ve talked about like, what some pros and cons that we’ve gotten out of our respective education’s, and also the impact of the idea of education and advancing in society for Asian culture. I think we also wanted to touch base on new evolving kind of definitions of education or school schooling that is popping up, and how we think about it. And if we think like, it’s something that could be adopted and understood by our Asian families, or like future Asian generations, and I think there are a couple ways of like, these new forms of education that I’m thinking about, at least, like coding academies, and and that’s like more adults, like higher education, right type paths. And then there’s this other track that’s also for like kids. Um, so now there are new ways that some people are thinking about educating their kids, which is not going through the traditional like public or established private school methods. It’s more like there’s one in particular I’m thinking of, which is Elon Musk actually started a program…

Jesse Lin 24:24
Oh I remember you talking about this.

Angela Lin 24:26
Yeah, for just his kids originally at SpaceX, where he was like, fuck regular school, they don’t teach you how to think it, which is exactly what we were talking about. Like they don’t teach you critical thinking as a child. So he essentially hired like one of the best educators like us in America to private, privately educate like some of the kids at SpaceX, including his own kids. And then now the educator who started that program spun off and it has like his own program that he’s offering to like anyone. And it’s online. So you can pay to have your kids participate in this schooling. Currently, it’s not instead of regular school, it’s in addition to, but the way it’s evolving is clearly like in the near future, people are going to start trying to offer these as like, substitutes for traditional schooling because it teaches you actual critical thinking and like how to operate in groups and like, make executive decisions and things like that, so that you’re more prepared for life. So yeah, those are the two kind of like, newer types of education models that I wanted to bring to the table and discuss and you can choose whichever one you feel gravitating towards more to kick us off.

Jesse Lin 25:47
I’ll start for this adult one, because as you know, I don’t have any plans to have children. So I don’t know anything about children education, except for the fact that I was once a child. The adult the adults stuff, I don’t think it’s that foreign of a concept even for our parents, because I remember, my mom told me that when she moved here, and even, you know, a few years after she moved her they were taking classes at adult school. Do you remember this? I think your parents do as well.

Angela Lin 26:16
Yes. But that was English. That’s like ESL for adults.

Jesse Lin 26:21
But but I think the concept of like education after, you know, university, or high school isn’t weird, because they were they weren’t doing that. In fact, even though it was, you know, to help them learn English, it’s still something like a class that they’re taking. As it relates to like, the boot camps and stuff. I think it will be more difficult to explain what you plan on doing after that.

Angela Lin 26:48
But that’s, that’s an Asian thing in general, like, you have to like up level things all the time. But you could easily say like, I’m going to become a computer engineer, or like a programmer, and they would understand that.

Jesse Lin 26:58
Yeah, so you have..

Angela Lin 26:59
Which is not exactly right.

Jesse Lin 27:00
Not xactly right. You have to give them like the analogous the next best thing. But I think that like the same thing that you were saying about your parents understanding, you’re basically telling them I’m gonna go do this, because I think it will do x y&z and I’m like taking care of it by myself, I don’t think they would have any problems absorbing that. I don’t know if they would consider it like a legitimate replacement, though, for university because I feel like our parents are also in a sense very, they’re very conscious of the experiences that they’ve heard through their community, meaning that if they haven’t heard anyone else’s Aunties, son or daughter or whatever, do this, there’ll be like the I don’t understand what this like, there’s no value in this. No one else has done it like, yes, yes. So there’s no social proof for it.

Angela Lin 27:50
Stick with the tried and true

Jesse Lin 27:51
Exactly, exactly. But I think if it’s, you know, it’s something you’ve you’ve done your you’ve done your college and you’re just trying to retool, I’m not sure that they would have not i’m not sure they would understand it, but I’m not sure they would have a problem with it.

Angela Lin 28:04
I think I largely agree with you. And I guess my yeah, you already went in there. But I was gonna ask you like, well, what do you think if someone said they wanted to go there instead of college, like traditional college, because I think a lot of that is where it’s trending is that people like young people, Gen Z, doesn’t necessarily see the advantage of traditional college given student loan debt, because a lot of the other appeal of these schools is that it’s a way smaller monetary investment in the grand scheme of like, how much college education costs or grad school education, it’s like a steal, if you if you actually get placed, you know, afterwards with a job. Um, so I think that is where it’s gonna be like, a lot of people are going to start having like tough conversations with their parents, if it’s like, I don’t want to go to UCI, I want to go to a coding Academy, and I’m going to become an engineer either way, but this one’s faster and cost less money. So why can I do it? You know, I think it will. I think these conversations have started and will continue to start as education keeps shifting, especially after this pandemic, where everyone was just zoom schooling. Like, I think people are trying to feel like what the eff am I paying this money for? When I’m just taking online classes, even if it’s Harvard or whatever, right. So I have a feeling things are gonna keep shifting more towards like, considering unconventional education paths moving forward.

Jesse Lin 29:48
Yeah, I think that makes sense. Um, the only thing that I would add to that is like, I mean, it’s not really like invalidating the form of education more so that like, I feel like if you know, already you want to do that, and you’re like, very dead set on it, like that’s totally for you like you are already sure. And for me, higher education was not just the learning part of it. It was also the network part of it, as I mentioned, but it was also just like, a personal growing experience like living by yourself, navigating what it’s like to live with roommates to clean the toilet with between other people. And all of those, like social things, you need to understand how to do as an adult, which, yeah, it’s not a formal class in university. But, you know, if you lived on campus, and you live with other people, it’s like things that you learn that also help you succeed in life, but are not necessarily career things.

Angela Lin 30:43
That’s a really good point. It’s the life education part. Yeah, for sure. It’s a very expensive life education. Yes. I agree. Yeah. And that actually leads me into the other form of education about the kids, because it’s something that Ramon and I have talked about for like future kids, because he’s definitely more of the mindset of like, I want them to like learn how to be real humans who think for themselves versus like, traditional education. He sees, definitely, as literally just rote memorization. And just like, you know, you’re not thinking you’re just spitting things out that people are telling you. And I see the value in that. But my kind of like devil’s advocate I always bring in is literally like, I need them to be socialized humans, I can’t have them be like geniuses who don’t know how to, like, interact with people. So I think that is kind of the balance that needs to be struck with these types of like, arguably, superior education forms for kids, but like, making sure their normal kids interact in real life as well.

Jesse Lin 31:51
No, no, I 100% agree with you. And I think that, you know, again, I I don’t plan on having kids. I don’t know anything about children education. But I feel like from what I’ve read about kids being schooled online this past year, is that it’s been very difficult. Children require that socialization, because everybody does, like think about how much we struggled this year, not seeing people and to be a young child in formative years, where your, where socialization helps you build your person not having that must be very, very, very confusing, and isolating. So I think it’s really important that, you know, even if it is a full time online thing, that children still have time to be children, like, they’re not adults, like you can teach them to think like adults, but at the end of the day, like kids, kids need time to be kids and play and have fun and stuff like that.

Angela Lin 32:48
Okay, well, that leads us into our fortune cookie close, which you’ll just have to use your imagination a little, you’ve already declared, you don’t want to have kids, but we wanted to close on our POV of how we will view the importance of and types of education for our future kids, I can start so I really do think that I will place less of an emphasis on brand names stuff, then like my parents did for me, it’s more important to me that they know how to think for themselves, they are able to formulate what they want to do with their lives. And not that they need the answer by like 18 or whatever, but that they start thinking earlier about it too because I think that’s what you said right was like you’re 18 then suddenly you have to like figure out what it is you want to do versus if you get your child kind of like exploring a lot of different topics early and like thinking critically about things early, they probably already naturally gravitate towards like this is the type of thing I like and like can be good at. And if they are able to get the connections they need the opportunities they need the kind of knowledge they need to do what they want to do, it’s less important to me about the name brand or like where something is then that they are well set up. And then what we just said earlier, which is like the socialization thing is like so it’s very important to me just being able to expand your horizon of like how many people could exist in your life and like could become some person important person in your life is like part of the fantasy and like the growing up part of going through puberty so I would need them to be able to tap into like many different social circles so that they feel fulfilled enough and are meeting different types of people like I don’t just want them to be like eggheads that are only with their like five to 10 other genius friends I need them to like, I dunno, go play a sport, go learn, you know, go get band like go surfing or something, you know, like meet people who have like, totally different backgrounds so that they feel like they’re getting exposed to the world. What abot you? Well, your fantasy.

Jesse Lin 35:17
Like it’s not, you know, like I want, if I were ever to have kids, I would want them to know enough to make their way through the world meaning like they know enough to not be swindled they know enough to not be lied to, like they know enough to make their own way through the world. And I think that’s really what’s important. Like same with you like, I don’t necessarily care that they go to a fancy college, I don’t even necessarily care if they go to a four year college as long as they seem certain that they have something that they want to do. And I think that’s fine because if you have enough drive and will to do something, it doesn’t really necessarily matter how you go about doing it. You know, you know where you want to go. It doesn’t matter which car you drive to get there.

Angela Lin 35:59
This is a fun topic I liked. I liked exploring this. If you guys have a perspective on if the type of education you had really benefited you or did not – wasn’t worth it. Or if you have a POV on these like new forms of education, or story around it that you want to share, write us in, telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. As a reminder, we are always looking for listener submitted stories for our reflections episodes. So do write us in with your experience around this topic or something else, whatever you want to share.

Jesse Lin 36:36
And we will have a fresh new episode for you next week.