Jesse Lin 0:20
This week, we’re talking about something that we really love – food. But in particular, we’re talking about one type of food that we really love a bubble tea slash boba, depending on which coasts you grew up in. Sorry, I’m still in the boba camp. I just want to say it’s still in the boba camp. But I want to recognize that we got a lot of bubble tea oriented listeners. So this week, we’re going to be talking all about boba and we’re going to give you guys a history lesson on boba, where it came from, what’s the current sitch, where we think it’s going to go in the future? And why seems like so many non Asian or sorry, not not Asian, but non Taiwanese people really enjoy drinking bubble tea. So!
Full Transcript (Note: Transcribed via AI, may contain errors)
Angela Lin 1:06
Yeah, and the reason Jesse went into the defense is because I shot a glare at him
Jesse Lin 1:14
It’s not what it’s called.
Angela Lin 1:17
Well, it’s whatever first thing you call it is what you’re saying it is and you started it with bubble tea, I’m like you’ve lived on the East Coast for too long, Jesse
Jesse Lin 1:28
Okay. Well, I was I was in my defense. I was looking at the outline. So the outline had bubble tea so then I just read it.
Angela Lin 1:37
Oh, Jesse.
Jesse Lin 1:39
Anyway, would you like to give our listeners the history lesson of the episode?
Angela Lin 1:45
Yes. And I think it’s as always Jesse and I don’t know shit about shit. And we googled a bunch of stuff right before this episode to bring you what we’re going to talk about, besides our own experiences, obviously, but for the history. It’s interesting, because I think both of us knew it was from Taiwan. But we are at least I didn’t really know what the like backstory was, and it TBH doesn’t look like there is a single consensus of the backstory. But everyone at least is in consensus that it started sometime in the 80s in Taiwan as an accident, or like a happenstance type of like concoction. Which shop did it is like contentious. There’s one in Taichung and one in Tainan. And they both claim that they’re people like through the bubbles, or through the pearls, whatever into like a random drink. And we’re like I invited boba, but either way, 80s in Taiwan. Something that I found interesting in the history though, is that tapioca is something that we tapioca is the like base ingredient for the pearls or the boba bubbles whatever you want to call it and I’ve always associated tapioca with like, definitely Asian people Asian food, if not, specifically Taiwan, because like the most common thing it’s used for, that people know about is boba. But fun fact, which maybe you already knew, but I didn’t is that tapioca first came to Taiwan, between the late 1800s and mid 1900s during the Japanese colonization of Taiwan, where they brought it over via from Brazil via Southeast Asia. So it’s actually a South American thing is the cassava plant is where tapioca comes from. And I had no idea that it was not like indigenous to Asia somewhere and definitely not Taiwan. It all gets a little fuzzier than but in terms of like how it got to the US, I think the general notion is that around like between the 60s and 90s was when like, more widespread immigration of like Asian people to the US started, and in the 90s in particular, Taiwanese people immigrated a ton into the LA area. San Gabriel Valley also the like most Asian most Chinese populated the SGV and boba started as kind of like a secondary or tertiary item that would be on menus and it was kind of janky like in those Styrofoam cups. And it was like not anything fancy. It was like the you know, mom or grandma running the restaurant, would just have it like a $1 add on type shit just to have like a more expanded menu, but it was not like no one had specialty boba shops or anything like that. And no one thought it was going to be like a main staple. It was just an an added thing onto menus and then somehow became like the thing it is now.
Jesse Lin 5:23
Well, I mean, yeah, I can definitely still remember not recently, but to support that, like, maybe when we were younger when we would go to those, like, Fahui at temple. So this is like, I don’t know, not a carnival, some kind of giant meeting some religious meeting, and they would have like, vendors sell traditional Chinese food. And I remember I got like, basically that, but it was like hot tea with condensed milk and they threw some. They threw some boba in it, and I was like, wait, this isn’t cold. This isn’t what I was. But yes, I definitely can back that up with some first hand knowledge. But that quick question. Do you think that most people know that bubble tea is from Taiwan?
Angela Lin 6:08
No, I don’t think okay.
Jesse Lin 6:10
I also I was wondering, too,
Angela Lin 6:11
I think Asian people know or many Asian people know, maybe not even all Asian people know that it’s from Taiwan. But yeah. If you know, you’re probably Asian,
Jesse Lin 6:25
If, you know, you know listener.
Angela Lin 6:26
Yes.
Jesse Lin 6:28
So as we alluded to, at the top of the episode, there’s some contention the contentiousness between the usage of bubble tea and boba and I actually think there when I was looking into it, there are different ways of naming different attributes of it. So in one of the articles is says the bubble tea, the bubbles don’t refer to the tapioca, or that zhen zhu it refers to when you shake it, there’s milk bubbles at the top. And then I guess for for us boba is just, boba. T
Angela Lin 7:03
It’s the whole drink. But some people refer to it just as the pearls, the tapioca pearls. Well, actually, and then this relates to the other historical, historical It sounds so ancient that way but like the other fun fact about the like history of boba is that, even though people debate about, like, which shop created it, no one debates where the name came from the boba nickname for it, which is super weird. It’s a named after a Hong Kong actress named Amy Yep, who was a sex symbol in the heyday. And her nickname was boba because bba is another way of talking about boobies. And she had big boobies, so it’s so bizarre. Oh, I feel like Asian culture has like random like very perverted tendencies. This is like one of them. Which is like let’s name this like fun drink that kids drink after boobs. So bizarre
Jesse Lin 8:09
What do you think about this bubble tea versus boba like when did someone first say bubble tea to you instead of boba
Angela Lin 8:15
Somewhere on the East Coast for sure. It was like very clear to me that it was a an East Coast West Coast divide when I first heard it there because and and like, I also read the same thing you read that it technically was named bubble tea because of the bubbles of when you shake it like the drink forms bubbles. But no one who talks about bubble tea is talking about that. Like they straight up call the pearls the bubbles. So then everyone thinks the thing is called bubble tea, because the pearls are the bubbles. So then I’m like, you’re wrong. That made me so pissed. But then you know, I lived in New York for seven years and you still live there. So you just kind of have to accept it at that point because no one calls it boba but just like, you don’t even know it wasn’t started here. I mean, it wasn’t started in the US in general. But then yeah, first US outpost was definitely West Coast. So then it just became like a West Coast East Coast thing.
Jesse Lin 9:13
Well if I remember correctly, for the most and it’s been a while since I’ve, when I when I went to Cha for Tea last time I was home like, you know, a month or so ago. The difference between the menus because I think like distinctly on the east coast on the menu, they write bubble milk tea, and on the west coast, it’s either tapioca milk tea, they just have the milk tea and then they have like toppings and then they have you know, tapioca pearls, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the menus themselves are, I think, inherently different. I think sometimes people think that boba or bubble milk tea has to be this like a very thick, rich thing, but you can always get the lighter version of it, which isn’t exactly that because you know you’re not putting milk in it and it’s not actually tapioca. But you can do like the grass jelly or some like lighter form like the smaller tapioca pearls and stuff like that still very good and it’s like a different distinct thing like more refreshing
Angela Lin 10:09
Yeah so I think that’s also something interesting is that while we’re tapping into like two different things here right like one is like the idea of boba or what can be encompassed by is not just a tea with milk and the tapioca pearls which is like the most default thing like you’re saying there’s so many varieties now of like, types of tea or like if there’s milk or no milk if there’s fresh fruit or no fresh fruit if you want boba or you want like pudding as your topping or like random other shit as your topping right and then but all of those things can be called boba like when you’re saying like I want to go get boba it doesn’t mean that you are just going to get like that default thing you’re probably maybe you have zero tapioca pearls in your thing and no milk like me and this is still considered like a Boba run that right? Yeah. And so that’s one whole thing. And I think we want to talk about like the new trends in boba flavors and stuff too. But something that you really dug into which I’m I want to pick apart as well is more of the like cultural significance of boba in like Asian American life. Because for me, I have never been like a huge boba fan in general. I think I liked it when it first came out because I was like, oh, this is fun and you and like, I was younger then too so I was like yum sugar, and like chewy things. I don’t know.
Jesse Lin 11:37
Yeah.
Angela Lin 11:38
But then as I got older, I just I didn’t like it that much. So if I got it, I would get it without the boba pearls. Or I would just go to like, hang out. So it wasn’t so much that I was craving the boba itself. It was like friends would be like, hey, I want to go get boba you want to come? And I’d be like, well, I want to hang out. So yeah, I’m gonna go get the Boba with you. And we’d sit there at lolly cup. That was like my most common. I don’t think it was as big of a thing for you. Because maybe it was too far for you and your high school but like for kids at my school, we went to Lollicup, which was like a very big thing in the 2000s in Irvine / Orange County area. For boba and I would get like the crispy chicken, which is a very like Taiwanese street food snack that is often served with boba, and we’d stay there for like hours on end. And it I bought the thing just to have an excuse to be there. But I wasn’t there because I was like I’m craving boba versus other people probably were.
Jesse Lin 12:46
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the articles did dive into it. It’s also from Eater, which is how bubble tea became basically, like this thing of a generation. And it does talk about how it’s almost like emblematic of a specific generation of Asian Americans because of how many life things that is tied to like you’re saying, it isn’t just about getting the drink, but it’s like hanging out with your friends. Like when you’re in the Lollicup, or I used to go to Tapioca Express a lot. When you’re in the line at Tapioca Express, there’s always like flyers and posters and stuff for Taiwanese things, or like Chinese things. So like, part of it’s like, you’re there to get the drink. Part of it’s like you’re there to hang. And then like, also, while you’re there, you’re like subtly absorbing Asian culture things cause they played, they would play like Taiwanese pop music, and they would have all these like, things that are from what was the contemporary culture of Taiwan back then.
Angela Lin 13:48
Yeah. And that article did touch on this, and I don’t think I recognize this in my own like history until I read part of that article, but it’s like, these were safe spaces for us, right? Because it was like, it’s one of the few places where you would go and everyone was Asian American, I mean, not everyone there’s sometimes they brought their white friends or whatever, but it was like the majority of the people there are Asian American and it was one of the few spaces where you would be the majority and that’s like somewhere special for you know, for people that are part of a minority group. So I don’t think I recognize that at the time but there I think I did feel a level of comfort going and I feel like purchase of the boba was your ticket in so I gladly paid it even though I didn’t want it that much. But yeah, we’d see there for like four hours, you know, three to four hours just like hanging there and feeling comfortable with ourselves.
Jesse Lin 14:56
That’s interesting, because like, as you mentioned that I also think about like, how I could feel more comfortable being like flexing my Asianness in that space and other places, you know, like when you go to some Asian places and you’re like, oh, I can say the language and I feel like this power? That was the kind of place where you’re like, I know all the words to the food menu like I can actually order in Chinese like, so. Yeah.
Angela Lin 16:35
Yeah, well actually, let’s break that down further because I think there’s an interesting like, it started a while ago, but I think it’s certainly like diverging further now which is that the article that you sent and we read is postulating that boba is like integral to Asian American culture not just like Asian immigrant culture but Asian American one of the first things that kind of like signaled Asian American identity right? Or that we could claim. And I think that’s true but I do think in the topic of boba and speaking to what you just said about like feeling proud that you could order in Chinese or whatever right, is that there’s now a split between the like authentic OG Taiwanese run boba shops and then these like hip you know, like, first gen Asian American run type boba places so for example, like Boba Guys is getting fuckin huge right and they are Asian American. I don’t actually even know if the founders are of Taiwanese origin they may or may not be but they don’t have to be but basically it’s like the old school way versus the like new generation way and I think they value different things like you’re there for the hang you’re there for the gram you’re there for you know, the the like, experience less so to say like this is authentic and what I mean by authentic is like authentic to like actual Taiwanese boba which very values like high quality tea because tbh these you know, the first gen run a boba places don’t care that much about the tea right? It’s like it sometimes there isn’t even tea and it’s like there’s like Boba Guys it’s like a Korean banana milk which is like there’s no tea today it’s just like straight sugar it’s like a shit ton of bananas syrup milk, like you know anyways, so the tea is not like at the center anymore of of first generation run boba shops versus you can tell that it’s like you can tell when you’re in in authentic Taiwanese run boba place when you like get a kick when you drink the milk tea because the tea is actually strong and it’s like high quality and then the others are toppings because we we read this and all the articles but it’s just it was just a refresher of what we’ve been hearing our whole lives with our moms probably which is in Taiwan, there’s this texture that everyone values a lot which is qq. Yes, that is often written like the letter Q even though that’s not actually what it’s what it where it came came from, but anyways, so this qq texture is is kind of like It’s chewy, it’s bouncy, it’s like it’s not just to describe boba it’s also to describe like other things, but it’s a very like coveted texture in Taiwanese culture. And so in like authentic Taiwanese run boba shops they don’t just have boba like yes having like qq boba is also very important, but they also have like other toppings that are very qq and Karen took me to one of these in South Bay where they have like noodles and I was like, What the fuck? Why am I getting noodles in my boba and it’s I think it’s still made out of tapioca but the shape is like little short noodles. So you get like a mix of all these different like qq toppings but just like you get some boba you got some noodles. And then I think there’s like cubes or something I don’t know. It’s just like this whole schlep of stuff. And then also like, yes, boba guys has like a ton of toppings as well. But I think some of the more like traditional things that even kind of come from like herbal medicine, right, there’s like grass jelly, and like, things like that, that white people probably don’t like as much because it’s sometimes it’s not like, it’s sometimes it’s a little bitter or like it’s just a flavor they’re not used to so like, the more mainstream places are not going to put that on the menu versus somewhere that is like run by OG Taiwanese people will be like, that’s what Taiwanese people like. So I’m going to put it on the menu. So that’s something I find really interesting is like seeing this divergence right now, between the like, first gen kids that are doing their own thing, picking up something that started in Taiwan, but making it more of this, like Asian American thing that may not be so true to the core, but is like taking the life on of its own versus the like, OG Taiwanese trend that is also thriving right now but like in a totally different way. Okay, well, why don’t we talk a little bit more about the broadening appeal? What did you learn about the non Asian people who are now discovering, and embracing boba?
Jesse Lin 21:40
In the New Yorker article, chronicles of a bubble tea addict, the author talks about how she was part of a student group in high school, and part of what they did or it was in college, something like that. And part of what they did is at an event was to have boba at the event. So I think part of the reason why non Asian people might like boba is because we know it’s a palatable and easy thing. And we push it as a thing that’s like, you know, you’re at the student event, there’s bubble tea, you’re at the blah, blah, blah, there’s buble tea it’s like very, it’s easy to drink, very accessible. So we push it as like a, this is a, you know, easy to digest, no pun intended thing from our culture that you’ll enjoy. Because the people in popular culture like it, and it’s easy to stomach, for lack of a better term. Yeah.
Angela Lin 22:33
So that’s your hypothesis of how it entered into white people’s sphere?
Jesse Lin 22:40
Yeah, that we push it that we pushed it as a thing that we enjoy, that’s coming from our culture. I also think that because it’s so so not like, not synonymous but because it is so intertwined with, like, Asian American culture from the 90s. It’s now become like a studiable thing. So when I was googling around, I found a partial thesis submission called “Want to get boba, the bond between boba and Asian American youth in San Jose, California”. So it’s like so as you were mentioning, it’s so engrained into some people’s lives. Not in a way that they’re thinking about it consciously, but like there are some patterns of things that they’re doing in pursuit of the boba, that now it’s become a thesis studiable thing. So I think that because of its popularity, and its connection with Asian American culture in the US, it’s also become more noticeable.
Angela Lin 23:40
Okay, shall we move into trends in boba?
Jesse Lin 23:44
Yes, trend alert trend alert.
Angela Lin 23:47
Yeah, so I looked up a lot of shit because I felt very knowledgeable about this topic, since I’m not like that into boba. And tbh the trends that are still floating in the US are not that like crazy. I’m like, oh, I’ve heard of this already. You know, this is like, this is still a trend.
Jesse Lin 24:09
Yeah, yeah
Angela Lin 24:09
I think the like, I think we just wanted to have this fun conversation because to see like the evolution of it and how like some crazy combos have popped up. I think in the US the craziest right is still the like, cheese foam thing? That seems to be the most like out there thing that is definitely caught on and people love it. I haven’t tried it yet. Have you?
Jesse Lin 24:34
I think I have. I think I have.
Angela Lin 24:36
Did you like it?
Jesse Lin 24:37
Yes. I mean, it’s, you know, I don’t think you can not like it. It’s like, well, that’s a lie. As I say it’s like not liking chocolate but I know some people don’t like chocolate. If you like sweets in general, you’ll like it.
Angela Lin 24:51
See, that’s my thing. I’m not a huge like when I order boba I order 25% sweetness or zero.
Jesse Lin 24:56
I don’t think you’ll like that. It’s very, very rich.
Angela Lin 25:00
Yeah, and I had to look it up because I was like, are you melting cheese and put it on putting it on boba? Because I don’t understand but it’s cream cheese, right? It’s like so it’s like whipped cream cheese with some salts on top so that there’s like a savory element to it. But it’s not like American craft cheese melted onto your boba or something.
Jesse Lin 25:22
No no no. This like, if you’re thinking about like, what will be the equivalent of it at Starbucks? Like a salted caramel.
Angela Lin 25:29
Yeah, so that’s probably I think that’s the like most out there one that’s trending in the US which is not new by any means. It’s been around for many years at this point. But I looked up some fun ones that are trending in Asia because they’re obviously where we steal all of our trends from and let’s see, there are some interesting ones. Oh, okay. Well, there’s one in the US we have like creme brulee milk tea right? I’ve seen those on a couple menus but I don’t think it’s like that different from the cheese foam thing versus in Malaysia right now there is a creme brulee one where they literally give you like, you know, the like flame flamed, creme brulee topping on top of your, your milk tea. So that’s one it’s like next level takes too much operational use, I think to trend in the US
Jesse Lin 26:29
That’s definitely for the gram.
Angela Lin 26:31
Yeah, as for the gram. In Taiwan, there’s one where I don’t know how I feel about this instead, one of the new toppings is oatmeal. Like it’s literally just like cooked oatmeal at the bottom. So I guess they’re pushing it as like a breakfast. Now you can like have boba for breakfast because instead of boba at the bottom, it’s like oatmeal. So then you’re eating your breakfast greens or whatever.
Jesse Lin 26:57
That doens’t sound good.
Angela Lin 26:58
I don’t know. No, I don’t know if that’s gonna catch on at all. And then the most like, it’s not bizarre. It’s not bizarre, but it looks bizarre to me is you know how in Taiwanese culture or maybe it’s Chinese I don’t know where it originated from. But we have the tea eggs cooked in like tea and star anice and like other whatever. Right? But anyway, tastes really good. There’s a shop in Taiwan that’s serving. Well, they serve the noodle things in the tea like I talked about, but oh, it’s actually made from sweet potato not tapioca. I was incorrect there. But when you get your boba they put a tea egg on top. Because they’re known I guess for the, the egg.
Like in it? Or..
Just no, it’s on top. But it’s like the way it’s it’s for the gram as well, because I’m staring at it right now. But it just looks a little bizarre because there’s like you got your boba. And then it’s got like, literally, like wet tea egg on top. But I guess I guess the idea is that, you know, it’s like, it’s an egg that’s cooked in tea, and you’re about to consume tea. So you could like eat it while you’re sipping on your boba, and whatever. But
Jesse Lin 28:24
I don’t know if those are. That’s a stretch.
Angela Lin 28:28
Well, this last one, I think white people would be into so then the US would be into which is alcoholic?
Jesse Lin 28:35
Oh, yeah, I saw that. I saw that in one of the articles where they were like, talking because a bubble tea again, it’s like originally not an expensive thing. It’s like a small add on. But of course, like, in the great tradition of capitalism in America, like we always take like really shitty things and we’re like, how can we make them more expensive? Okay, upgrade ingredients done. Okay, turn the ingredients to alcohol we can charge triple the amount of money. Like I don’t know if I would ever hop on board for something like that.
Angela Lin 29:04
I don’t think I it doesn’t sound like it would taste good to me. But this one I actually read. I’m sure they’re doing it in the US too. I think I’ve seen it on a menu or two as well. But this one is from Singapore and they have flavors like Nutella Bailey’s. Maybe that would be good. Maybe. Taro Tequila sounds fucking disgusting to me disgusting. Green tea, Heineken also doesn’t sound that good. And then pineapple thyme rum. I mean, I guess once you start removing any semblance of milk tea for bad you’re just putting alcohol and like a fruity thing together though. It’s fine, but that’s not really boba.
Jesse Lin 30:28
Alright, so I hope you guys enjoyed this lively discussion around food. I think this is like the most passionately I’ve ever talked about food ever. And it’s not even real food is snacky food, which is very on brand for me. But let’s move on to the fortune cookie part of our podcast because we always like to end on a sweet treat. We wanted to reveal to you guys what our favorite boba combos are. Angela, would you like to go first?
Angela Lin 31:00
Yes, I think tbh I don’t have like a favorite favorite. But my go to is something very similar to what I’m drinking right now. Which is I don’t really tend towards the milk tea part. Because you know what something I find really ironic about Asian Americans love of milk tea, boba tea is that so many of us are lactose intolerant. So I can’t have boba unless I have like, come prepared with the lactaid. So So yeah, so that’s a big element to it. But even now, like especially on the coast, we’re so like, what alternative milks do you have? So like, everyone has oat milk and almond milk and whatever. So I get that sometimes, but I actually do prefer the like non milk boba. And so, if it’s like in the afternoon, because I don’t drink that much caffeine anymore. I don’t want to like spike, so I’ll get the things that are uncaffeinated. My one of my favorite ones is winter melon, which a lot of people don’t know what that is who are Chinese speaking when they hear it in English. Yeah, it’s a and I think I like it because it’s not too sweet. It’s got a little bit of sweetness, but it’s not too sweet. And it makes me feel connected to my Taiwanese, like upbringing because you didn’t drink that when you were growing up? I drank a lot of that.
Jesse Lin 32:25
It’s the very light soup and the dong gua was like this white thing, right? And it’s usually when you eat it. It’s very soft. Yeah. Okay.
Angela Lin 32:32
Yeah. And then you could also buy it like 99 Ranch. They have like canned dong gua juice, or whatever. But right.
Jesse Lin 32:39
So what’s the flavor when it’s in a tea like that though?
Angela Lin 32:42
It’s just very subtly sweet. Like, very subtle. It’s kind of like crisp and subtle. And yeah, I’ll get so I’ll get winter melon tea. And then for the topping, like I said, I’ll either get aloe vera chunks or lychee chunks because yeah, the other day I don’t like boba that much. And, but if I’m feeling fucking indulgent, then I will go for a milk tea of some sort. And I’ll get the pudding topping cuz but that’s like not that’s not my go to it’s that’s too indulgent.
Jesse Lin 33:19
You’re like literally setting yourself up for gastrointestinal failure.
Angela Lin 33:24
Well, if I’ve already gone that path, I’m taking the lactaid already. But, yeah. How about you?
Jesse Lin 33:31
Um, I want to say recently, I’ve been really into the brown sugar boba craze thing.
Angela Lin 33:38
Oh you have such a sweet tooth!
Jesse Lin 33:40
I know, it’s really bad. But I really like it. So sweet. It’s delicious. But if I’m going to a place that has like everything, where it’s like you have your your teas, your milk teas, whatever. And there’s also food. I would say nostalgia dictates that I would get something that’s like a Black Milk tea with tapioca pearls or green tea milk tea with tapioca pearls and then an order of that crispy, salty fried chicken.
Angela Lin 34:07
Yeah. Very nostalgic.
Jesse Lin 34:12
Yeah, every place we went to when we were growing up, that was like the combo you could get that as a combo.
Angela Lin 34:17
So that’s our favorite stuff. If you enjoy this episode, if you have strong thoughts about your favorite boba combo, or the history of boba or your experience with it as an emblem of your Asian American upbringing, we want to hear from you. So write us in with comments or your story for a potential feature on an upcoming reflections episode, email us at telluswhereyourefrom@gmail.com the you’re is Y-O-U-R-E. And as always come back next week for a fresh new episode.